Guest guest Posted October 21, 2004 Report Share Posted October 21, 2004 I wasn't offended, Butch! I know your humour better than that. You'll just have to come to Dorset and see for yourself how much open space there is with plenty of wildlife! You must imagine the UK as a group of small overloaded islands ... one big sprawling mass of people, towns, houses, etc. but I promise there's some wild and wollly places - just ask Ann in Scotland .... now there's wildlife and game up there alright! Don't forget the London area accounts for 13 million of our 55 million people. Yes, there are birds bred (pheasants) just for shooting by the wealthy (it costs a lot of money for an organised day's shoot). They are the most stupid animals because they're bred in captivity and most must get killed my cars judging by the scenes on the roads at that time of year. Licensing for guns is also completely different ... the average person doesn't hunt or shoot or even want a gun. A few horsey people like to hunt (that's foxes) but apparently they don't kill many and it's a day's riding rather than the kill that motivates the vast majority. Hare-coursing has been illegal for a long time but I know it still happens around here - I've seen the dogs chasing them and men in ridiculous (IMO) outfits running after them. I guess it is a class thing - us commoners object to the land-owners getting their jollies at the benefit of wildlife! Jane - " Butch Owen " <butchbsi Thursday, October 21, 2004 2:41 PM OT: Wildlife and Hunting > > Hi Jane, > > > > " Some folks .. especially Europeans, cause they wiped out their > > > wildlife many generations ago .. think Americans are cavalier in > > > their attitudes toward deer .. " > > > > Well now, Butch, that's a gross injustice! On this side of the pond, > > we can't have wiped out our wildlife - we're surrounded by it still - > > just not many of us find it 'sport' to go out and shoot it anymore! > > There is nothing that can be said or done that will not offend someone > somewhere all the time .. even when its not intended to do so. ;-) > > Truth might sometimes appear to be unjust if one takes a statement as > being an insult to their race, nationality or nation. My statement > certainly wasn't intended to do that .. but I think you read it as such. > And if it came across that way .. I apologize. :-) > > One of the reasons many British citizens don't consider hunting as being > " sport " is because its not been a sport for the average person in many > years .. it has been more a sport of royalty and the rich land owners. > This is the opinion of a a British drinking buddy here in Ankara .. a > geologist who loves to hunt. The subject came up some months ago at the > Pub when I was discussing hunting in the USA and Canada. There is also > a quote below that I found on a site regarding hunting in W. Europe. > > True it is that many British citizens object to hunting .. especially > fox hunting as its seen as a sport of the elite .. and hunting has not > been an important part of European culture for many generations now. > > But in mid-September, when your House of Commons voted to outlaw fox > hunting in England and Wales (it had already been outlawed in Scotland) > " ** police clashed with thousands of hunt supporters outside parliament > in London, and as five pro-hunt protesters burst onto the floor of the > Commons after breezing past security guards. " UNQUOTE > > Plus .. Queen Elizabeth is not happy with this decision .. says .. > http://europe.news.designerz.com/queen-elizabeth-not-amused-by-looming-fox-hunti\ ng-ban.html > > Agree that my use of the term " wiped out " was a bit heavy and accuracy > would demand I change it to something like .. " The already small amount > of land available for wildlife habitat has drastically decreased over > several generations in Western Europe .. and it is very difficult for > the average person to go hunting due to owner's not allowing outsiders > to harvest an already scarce number of game animals. " > > A quote from the web site I mentioned above: > > " Of Commoners and Kings: In the England that the colonists left behind, > land belonged to the king or to someone who held it by grant from the > king, and so did the wildlife who lived on it. Hunting without the > landholder’s permission was a form of theft known as poaching. Since > England – like most of Europe – had been overhunted by the late Middle > Ages, and game was scarce, poaching laws were strictly enforced and > hunting was a jealously guarded pastime of the upper classes. > > In the English colonies of North America, wildlife belonged exclusively > to the monarch, since under English law, he was the ultimate owner of > all colonial land. But the early settlers found a continent teeming with > wildlife. With seemingly inexhaustible supplies of game, the king and > his agents, the wealthy, aristocratic holders of royal land grants, had > little interest in preventing hunting on lands that few of them would > ever visit. As a practical matter, enforcing poaching laws in such a > vast wilderness was impossible, and so where Europe had turned hunting > into an amusement for the elite, in North America unrestricted hunting > became a way of life for the general public, most of whom lived in rural > areas. > > This situation was enshrined in American law in 1842. In Martin v. > Waddell, the U.S. Supreme Court held that since the rights and > privileges formerly held by the King of England had passed to the people > of the United States, wildlife could not be privately owned, but > belonged to the people. The principle that wildlife are always public, > and never private, property remains the foundation of American wildlife > law. Wildlife are held by the government (primarily state governments) > in " public trust " for the benefit of everyone. " UNQUOTE > > The " sport " of hunting has a different face in Western Europe than it > does in North America .. so does ownership of firearms. Wildlife for > hunting purposes is really " managed " in Europe .. to the point one could > almost say it is farmed. In many cases .. England included .. game > birds are raised in captivity and released on the day of the hunt. This > is not unheard of in America .. but its an exception and only engaged in > by the rich and lazy who are not really sports persons. > > Its not unusual for rural folks in America to come home from work in > Winter with but two hours of sunlight left .. go 500-1000 yards from > their home, climb a tree .. and come home with a White Tail buck in an > hour or so. This is because we just have TOO MANY White Tail Deer in > the Eastern USA. > > Even today, my friends and relatives in Kentucky can go from their home > and return in 3-4 hours with a limit of quail, rabbit, dove, squirrel or > whatever is in season. In many cases they don't even drive .. they walk > to the area they want to hunt. > > There is much public land available for hunting in the USA .. plus all > large military reservations MUST allow civilians as well as military > personnel to hunt. Example: When I served in Fort Bliss, Texas .. we > controlled the largest range area in the Free World .. McGregor Range. > During hunting season, each week we (the Military Police) issued 1,000 > permits .. 500 to military folks and 500 to civilians .. and the turn in > rate was pretty high. Also, in some states (Kansas is but one example) > the state rents public land to farmers for growing crops .. with the > proviso that they must leave so many rows of corn, wheat, milo or > whatever standing for wildlife. > > In Germany .. land .. and game is tightly controlled .. landowners hire > Jagermeisters to tend their herds and to tell shooters which deer they > can shoot .. I have hunted there with German friends. Its not what I > call a sport .. sitting in a fixed blind with a gas heater, sipping a > drink and having the fellow beside you tell you which animal to harvest > from the baited field they are grazing on. > > In England, for a long time hunting has not been a sport of the middle > or lower social classes but one of the rich and the landowners .. and > today those who wish to pay companies who have leased land and stocked > it with wildlife. There are many ads for this on any search engine. > There are photos on the net of such outfits showing 4-5 hunters with > many dozens of dead game birds at their feet. Hunting laws don't apply > to these commercially raised and released birds .. nor is shooting them > considered a sport by most folks in the USA because we don't have to do > that. I do understand how it might be considered sport by someone who > has no other options .. its like fishing for trout in stocked ponds in > the USA .. and paying by the pound for what you catch; this we do have > here and there in America .. though real fisherpersons don't go in for > that type of fishing. > > The percentage of hunters vs the overall population is stated below for > some Western European countries. > > Spain ....... 2.8% .. a ratio of 1 hunter per 35 citizens. > > France ...... 2.4% .. a ratio of 1 hunter per 44 citizens. > > Portugal .... 2.3% .. a ratio of 1 hunter per 34 citizens. > > UK .......... 1.3% .. a ratio of 1 hunter per 74 citizens. > > Germany ..... 0.4% .. a ratio of 1 hunter per 241 citizens. > > Netherlands . 0.2% .. a ratio of 1 hunter per 500 citizens. > > The latest figures for hunting licenses sold in the USA is 2001 .. it > shows 13 million or so Americans purchased them .. this is a bit over 5% > of the TOTAL population .. not the adult population, which I don't have > handy now but it obviously raises the percentage a good bit. And this > percentage does not include landowners .. who in most states can hunt on > their own land without a license .. or military personnel on authorized > leave .. who have the same privileges in most states .. or Native > Americans .. who do not need state hunting licenses to hunt on their own > reservations .. or those who take a gamble and hunt without a license. > > In general, hunts in Western Europe are paid and guided hunts. Then, of > course, there are some who are fortunate enough to be invited on hunts. > This is normally considered VIP treatment. It is slowly becoming that > way for the bigger game in the USA .. but while I was in New Mexico the > opening of bow season for elk began .. and the flood of folks heading to > the public lands was enormous. > > > The other evening I was going to dinner with friends and, driving > > along a particularly beautiful valley, I was mesmerised by the site > > of about 20 deer of all sizes grazing in a field. We also have dozens > > of badgers, hares, rabbits and foxes and, being right on the coast, a > > HUGE variety of sea birds including herons, egrets and all types of > > gulls. > > Sea birds such as those mentioned above are not game birds so folks > don't hunt them. Obviously, there is some wild game alive and well in > every country in the world .. but the abundance is what I should have > made clear .. and the right of the average person to go out and harvest > wild game. As previously stated, the right to hunt is not so common in > many countries. That is true here in Turkey. A foreigner wanting to > hunt here MUST go with a guide service. In America, anyone can hunt on > private land with permission or public land anytime .. if they purchase > a non-resident license. > > > Huh! > > Jane > > Back at'ya. ;-) And please understand that my original comment was not > a slam on any country .. but simply a comparison. > > > PS: My Illinois friend's father does get very twitchy at the mention > > of all our wild deer though ... > > Understood that is. There's a joke (maybe its true) that some Suthran > churches close the doors if the first day of a particular hunting season > falls on a Sunday. > > Y'all keep smiling. :-) Butch > > > > > > Step By Step Instructions On Making Rose Petal Preserves: http://www.av-at.com/stuff/rosejam.html > > To adjust your group settings (i.e. go no mail) see the following link: /join > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 21, 2004 Report Share Posted October 21, 2004 Der Butch, Thank you for the wonderful essay on hunting. My husband is a hunter and has been so all of his life (he's 60 now) as was his dad (who took nothing but photos), and his grandfather before him as it was his way of life to feed his family in Central Texas. My husband has always been as you, very conscientious about how he hunts, where he hunts and what he hunts. If the land has been overhunted (we own land in the North Texas area) around our land then he doesn't hunt. He wants the deer and other animals to re-populate the area. The only real problems tend to be with the wild boar/pigs that he would love to get anytime, any place just so they will not destroy everything in their path. My husband will first go out with our movie camera and take pictures. We have some beautiful pictures of deer going back for a number of years. Then he shows them to my mom and me just so we can enjoy the beautiful deer in the wilderness. He has also taught our son (who is at the US Naval Academy) to hunt with respect to the animals. He took him to a gun safety class when he was about 12 or 13 years old just so he would know what to do and what not to do. I tremendously enjoyed your statement about the church doors being closed on the opening weekend of hunting season. In some places I can see that happening here in Texas still but you forgot one thing. The ladies would be there, sitting in the pews, worshiping and singing and praying that their husbands either " caught " a deer or " missed " that " danged " deer (so they wouldn't have to help butcher). My husband is preparing already for deer season on the first weekend in November here. Take care and have a great weekend! Ya'll be careful now going into Afganistan! If you ever make it to North Texas, let us know and we treat you to the Fort Worth Stock Yards and Billy Bob's. >Understood that is. There's a joke (maybe its true) that some Suthran >churches close the doors if the first day of a particular hunting season >falls on a Sunday. > >Y'all keep smiling. :-) Butch > > Rhavda Emison Scents of Success (http://www.scentsofsuccess.com) Texas Grown - American Made Rose Oil Products Rose, Helichrysum, Oak Moss, Melissa, & Other Products Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 24, 2004 Report Share Posted October 24, 2004 I'm a little late on this. I would venture to guess that a good percentage of the hunters are like this. I grew up in Utah among a hunting family who practiced these morals and taught everyone we took hunting this morals too. We did more archery (because it is harder and you get to be more a part of nature) than rifle but did a good smattering of both. Karen J sos79 [sos79] Thursday, October 21, 2004 1:05 PM Re: OT: Wildlife and Hunting Der Butch, Thank you for the wonderful essay on hunting. My husband is a hunter and has been so all of his life (he's 60 now) as was his dad (who took nothing but photos), and his grandfather before him as it was his way of life to feed his family in Central Texas. My husband has always been as you, very conscientious about how he hunts, where he hunts and what he hunts. If the land has been overhunted (we own land in the North Texas area) around our land then he doesn't hunt. He wants the deer and other animals to re-populate the area. The only real problems tend to be with the wild boar/pigs that he would love to get anytime, any place just so they will not destroy everything in their path. My husband will first go out with our movie camera and take pictures. We have some beautiful pictures of deer going back for a number of years. Then he shows them to my mom and me just so we can enjoy the beautiful deer in the wilderness. He has also taught our son (who is at the US Naval Academy) to hunt with respect to the animals. He took him to a gun safety class when he was about 12 or 13 years old just so he would know what to do and what not to do. I tremendously enjoyed your statement about the church doors being closed on the opening weekend of hunting season. In some places I can see that happening here in Texas still but you forgot one thing. The ladies would be there, sitting in the pews, worshiping and singing and praying that their husbands either " caught " a deer or " missed " that " danged " deer (so they wouldn't have to help butcher). My husband is preparing already for deer season on the first weekend in November here. Take care and have a great weekend! Ya'll be careful now going into Afganistan! If you ever make it to North Texas, let us know and we treat you to the Fort Worth Stock Yards and Billy Bob's. >Understood that is. There's a joke (maybe its true) that some Suthran >churches close the doors if the first day of a particular hunting season >falls on a Sunday. > >Y'all keep smiling. :-) Butch > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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