Guest guest Posted August 31, 2009 Report Share Posted August 31, 2009 Please provide the exact URL for " Dr. Huang Huang Foundational Teachings " -- I tried a search with this an I did not see it. FYI and others. I remember when Subhiti Dharmananda first composed and wrote his Chinese herb course 25 or 30 years ago. With no prior experience in TCM he devised a similar ingenious way of teaching Chinese formulas based on " families' before that no one was teaching them that way. So I really like Ten Key Formula Families but I also take some satisfaction that it was first done by one hell of a smart American Jew, with a Buddhist name and is now a devoted converted Catholic (imagine that journey!). I first turned him on to Chinese herbal medicine and using is pinpoint scientific consciousness completely on his own he came up with the most ingenious way of teaching it. I remember that other Chinese teachers at the time were rather amazed at his approach to teaching Chinese herbal formulas. Just another instance where Western TCM practitioners and thinkers have added to and continue to transform TCM. What we still do lack is the tremendous body of experience of the Chinese but I think gradually we are getting there. TCM must and will transform itself as it becomes integrated into a world culture. Michael Tierra Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 31, 2009 Report Share Posted August 31, 2009 Michael, If you have time, could you share an ingenious idea that Subhuti came up with that has added to our TCM knowledge. I am unfamiliar with his teaching methods. Thanks, -Jason On Behalf Of Michael Tierra Monday, August 31, 2009 2:07 PM RE: Dr. Huang Huang Please provide the exact URL for " Dr. Huang Huang Foundational Teachings " -- I tried a search with this an I did not see it. FYI and others. I remember when Subhiti Dharmananda first composed and wrote his Chinese herb course 25 or 30 years ago. With no prior experience in TCM he devised a similar ingenious way of teaching Chinese formulas based on " families' before that no one was teaching them that way. So I really like Ten Key Formula Families but I also take some satisfaction that it was first done by one hell of a smart American Jew, with a Buddhist name and is now a devoted converted Catholic (imagine that journey!). I first turned him on to Chinese herbal medicine and using is pinpoint scientific consciousness completely on his own he came up with the most ingenious way of teaching it. I remember that other Chinese teachers at the time were rather amazed at his approach to teaching Chinese herbal formulas. Just another instance where Western TCM practitioners and thinkers have added to and continue to transform TCM. What we still do lack is the tremendous body of experience of the Chinese but I think gradually we are getting there. TCM must and will transform itself as it becomes integrated into a world culture. Michael Tierra Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 31, 2009 Report Share Posted August 31, 2009 Michael, many props to Subhuti Dharmananda... love his website, but formula families is a concept that has been around from the time of Zhang Zhong Jing, the Chinese invented it for Chinese formulas. Case in point... gui zhi tang modifications make up half of the Tai yang conformation Arnaud Versluys also lectures about formula families for the SHL. K On Mon, Aug 31, 2009 at 1:06 PM, Michael Tierra <mtierrawrote: > > > Please provide the exact URL for " Dr. Huang Huang Foundational Teachings " > -- I tried a search with this an I did not see it. > > FYI and others. I remember when Subhiti Dharmananda first composed and > wrote > his Chinese herb course 25 or 30 years ago. With no prior experience in TCM > he devised a similar ingenious way of teaching Chinese formulas based on > " families' before that no one was teaching them that way. So I really like > Ten Key Formula Families but I also take some satisfaction that it was > first > done by one hell of a smart American Jew, with a Buddhist name and is now a > devoted converted Catholic (imagine that journey!). I first turned him on > to > Chinese herbal medicine and using is pinpoint scientific consciousness > completely on his own he came up with the most ingenious way of teaching > it. > I remember that other Chinese teachers at the time were rather amazed at > his > approach to teaching Chinese herbal formulas. Just another instance where > Western TCM practitioners and thinkers have added to and continue to > transform TCM. What we still do lack is the tremendous body of experience > of > the Chinese but I think gradually we are getting there. TCM must and will > transform itself as it becomes integrated into a world culture. > > Michael Tierra > > > -- When one pill of the great elixir forms in the furnace, The embryonic immortal in the room dances three leaps. The four signs and five energies all combine harmoniously, The nine-restoration and seven-reversion complete the work cycle. The radiant form of the moon appears from the hut, The shining light illumines the universe. " The Book of Balance and Harmony " Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 31, 2009 Report Share Posted August 31, 2009 I've been wondering about this recently. I profess not to know all of the writings of ZZJ, only the SHL. There one can say the formulas families are implicit but not especially explicit. When writing a review of Huang Huang someone pointed out that he didn't invent the system. But I wonder if other writers through the centuries, up to Subhuti, Versluys and Dr. Huang et al, were as instructional and explicit in these " families " . To me it seems that this may be a modern return as a reaction to the category listings we see now have in current texts. But am I wrong here? Doug , <johnkokko wrote: > > Michael, > many props to Subhuti Dharmananda... love his website, > but formula families is a concept that has been around from the time of > Zhang Zhong Jing, > the Chinese invented it for Chinese formulas. > Case in point... gui zhi tang modifications make up half of the Tai yang > conformation > Arnaud Versluys also lectures about formula families for the SHL. > > K > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 31, 2009 Report Share Posted August 31, 2009 Doug, I came up with my own formula families and charts about fifteen years ago for my formula classes, it is a natural organizing tool. The translator of Huang Huang's book, Michael Max, discusses another physician Chang Bai-tao, who developed his own system on his wonderful website: http://classicformulas.com/ On Aug 31, 2009, at 4:01 PM, wrote: > I've been wondering about this recently. I profess not to know all > of the writings of ZZJ, only the SHL. There one can say the formulas > families are implicit but not especially explicit. When writing a > review of Huang Huang someone pointed out that he didn't invent the > system. But I wonder if other writers through the centuries, up to > Subhuti, Versluys and Dr. Huang et al, were as instructional and > explicit in these " families " . To me it seems that this may be a > modern return as a reaction to the category listings we see now have > in current texts. But am I wrong here? > Doug > > , > <johnkokko wrote: > > > > Michael, > > many props to Subhuti Dharmananda... love his website, > > but formula families is a concept that has been around from the > time of > > Zhang Zhong Jing, > > the Chinese invented it for Chinese formulas. > > Case in point... gui zhi tang modifications make up half of the > Tai yang > > conformation > > Arnaud Versluys also lectures about formula families for the SHL. > > > > K > > > > > > > Chair, Department of Herbal Medicine Pacific College of Oriental Medicine San Diego, Ca. 92122 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 31, 2009 Report Share Posted August 31, 2009 It was the method of teaching similar to Dr. Huang Huang's 110 families. Rather than rely on learning the herbs singly he would teach the single herbs in the context of a formula. He'd begin by teaching the basic gui zhi tang formula and following the Shang han lun , would describe how adding or subtracting different components would give rise to dozens of other formulas and different uses. The Ma Huang tang family, the gypsum family, the Bupleurum family, pinellia family of formulas I might add the er chen, si junza tang families and so forth. So Like Dr. huang Huang one learns the formulas and the herbs simultaneously and in context of traditional use. Normally TCM is taught, materia medica first, then formulas - still is for the most part. It's very systematic but somehow I don't thing in practice that we wind up thinking about or using herbs in that way. At the time, 30 years or so ago, that was a very original way to teach TCM. Michael Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 31, 2009 Report Share Posted August 31, 2009 Yes, I know but that's not the way they are taught in schools or presented in textbooks - if it is that Dr. Huang Huang's book would not be necessary. Re: Dr. Huang Huang Michael, many props to Subhuti Dharmananda... love his website, but formula families is a concept that has been around from the time of Zhang Zhong Jing, the Chinese invented it for Chinese formulas. Case in point... gui zhi tang modifications make up half of the Tai yang conformation Arnaud Versluys also lectures about formula families for the SHL. K Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 31, 2009 Report Share Posted August 31, 2009 Again, Z'ev its interesting and it is what we as free agent teachers would do but when we look at TCM curriculum I don't see them taught or presented that way - am I wrong about this? Michael On Behalf Of Monday, August 31, 2009 4:08 PM Re: Dr. Huang Huang Doug, I came up with my own formula families and charts about fifteen years ago for my formula classes, it is a natural organizing tool. The translator of Huang Huang's book, Michael Max, discusses another physician Chang Bai-tao, who developed his own system on his wonderful website: http://classicformulas.com/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 31, 2009 Report Share Posted August 31, 2009 That is true, Michael, And I think it would make the students' plight in learning formulas much easier if we taught formula families. . On Aug 31, 2009, at 4:29 PM, Michael Tierra wrote: > Yes, I know but that's not the way they are taught in schools or > presented > in textbooks - if it is that Dr. Huang Huang's book would not be > necessary. > > Re: Dr. Huang Huang > > Michael, > many props to Subhuti Dharmananda... love his website, > but formula families is a concept that has been around from the time > of > Zhang Zhong Jing, > the Chinese invented it for Chinese formulas. > Case in point... gui zhi tang modifications make up half of the Tai > yang > conformation > Arnaud Versluys also lectures about formula families for the SHL. > > K > > Chair, Department of Herbal Medicine Pacific College of Oriental Medicine San Diego, Ca. 92122 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 31, 2009 Report Share Posted August 31, 2009 Michael, Doug, There are a few Blue Poppy translations that are based on formula families, such as " The Heart and Essence of Dan-xi's Method of Treatment " , and " The Heart Transmission of Medicine " by Liu Yi-ren. Zhu Dan-xi was a Jin-Yuan dynasty physician (13th century), and Liu Yi- ren a Qing dynasty physician (19th century). So this method of compilation has a historical basis. On Aug 31, 2009, at 4:28 PM, Michael Tierra wrote: > It was the method of teaching similar to Dr. Huang Huang's 110 > families. > Rather than rely on learning the herbs singly he would teach the > single > herbs in the context of a formula. He'd begin by teaching the basic > gui zhi > tang formula and following the Shang han lun , would describe how > adding or > subtracting different components would give rise to dozens of other > formulas > and different uses. The Ma Huang tang family, the gypsum family, the > Bupleurum family, pinellia family of formulas I might add the er > chen, si > junza tang families and so forth. So Like Dr. huang Huang one learns > the > formulas and the herbs simultaneously and in context of traditional > use. > Normally TCM is taught, materia medica first, then formulas - still > is for > the most part. It's very systematic but somehow I don't thing in > practice > that we wind up thinking about or using herbs in that way. At the > time, 30 > years or so ago, that was a very original way to teach TCM. > > Michael > > > Chair, Department of Herbal Medicine Pacific College of Oriental Medicine San Diego, Ca. 92122 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 31, 2009 Report Share Posted August 31, 2009 You are correct, I am unaware of any schools that organize the formula classes in this fashion. Again, I have done so in my own classes for some time now. . . On Aug 31, 2009, at 4:32 PM, Michael Tierra wrote: > Again, Z'ev its interesting and it is what we as free agent teachers > would > do but when we look at TCM curriculum I don't see them taught or > presented > that way - am I wrong about this? > > Michael > > > On Behalf Of Z'ev > Rosenberg > Monday, August 31, 2009 4:08 PM > > Re: Dr. Huang Huang > > Doug, > I came up with my own formula families and charts about fifteen > years ago for my formula classes, it is a natural organizing tool. > The translator of Huang Huang's book, Michael Max, discusses another > physician Chang Bai-tao, who developed his own system on his wonderful > website: > > http://classicformulas.com/ > > > > Chair, Department of Herbal Medicine Pacific College of Oriental Medicine San Diego, Ca. 92122 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 31, 2009 Report Share Posted August 31, 2009 I heard that there are schools in China that teach formulas first and the way that the herbs fit into the formulas with their functions secondly. Can anyone confirm this? Herbs have several functions depending on their context with other herbs and according to their hierarchies. So it makes more sense to learn this way. K Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 1, 2009 Report Share Posted September 1, 2009 Well, Z'ev your wonderful reputation as a teacher precedes you my friend. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 1, 2009 Report Share Posted September 1, 2009 The URL Huang Huang course is http://www.whitepinehealingarts.com/seminars/seminars_distance.htm#hh Sharon Weizenbaum 86 Henry Street Amherst, MA 01002 www.whitepinehealingarts.com sweiz Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 1, 2009 Report Share Posted September 1, 2009 As does yours, I ran into a former student of yours at a hot springs resort near Lake Tahoe a few weeks ago. . . Z'ev On Sep 1, 2009, at 12:33 AM, Michael Tierra wrote: > Well, Z'ev your wonderful reputation as a teacher precedes you my > friend. > Chair, Department of Herbal Medicine Pacific College of Oriental Medicine San Diego, Ca. 92122 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 1, 2009 Report Share Posted September 1, 2009 I also do this in my materia medica classes. For each herb, I show them formulas and prepared medicines that contain that herb, and show them how the herb is used in the formulas. This shows them how the herb is used in the " real world " of herbal medicine. I don't hold them responsible for formula info on their exams, though. - Bill Schoenbart , <zrosenbe wrote: > > You are correct, I am unaware of any schools that organize the formula > classes in this fashion. Again, I have done so in my own classes for > some time now. . . > > > > On Aug 31, 2009, at 4:32 PM, Michael Tierra wrote: > > > Again, Z'ev its interesting and it is what we as free agent teachers > > would > > do but when we look at TCM curriculum I don't see them taught or > > presented > > that way - am I wrong about this? > > > > Michael > > > > > > On Behalf Of Z'ev > > Rosenberg > > Monday, August 31, 2009 4:08 PM > > > > Re: Dr. Huang Huang > > > > Doug, > > I came up with my own formula families and charts about fifteen > > years ago for my formula classes, it is a natural organizing tool. > > The translator of Huang Huang's book, Michael Max, discusses another > > physician Chang Bai-tao, who developed his own system on his wonderful > > website: > > > > http://classicformulas.com/ > > > > > > > > > > > Chair, Department of Herbal Medicine > Pacific College of Oriental Medicine > San Diego, Ca. 92122 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 1, 2009 Report Share Posted September 1, 2009 The URL Huang Huang course is http://www.whitepinehealingarts.com/seminars/seminars_distance.htm#hh Sharon Weizenbaum 86 Henry Street Amherst, MA 01002 www.whitepinehealingarts.com sweiz Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 2, 2009 Report Share Posted September 2, 2009 I haven't taught herbs or formulas for a while but I could see that, at least in our quarter system, the whole school has to make the commitment because students may have 3 different formula or herb teachers. It seems that Formula Families could easily be " trans-category " . Z'ev, did you have to change or tweak curriculum or are you able to integrate your system within what exists at PCOM? Doug , <zrosenbe wrote: > > You are correct, I am unaware of any schools that organize the formula > classes in this fashion. Again, I have done so in my own classes for > some time now. . . > > > > On Aug 31, 2009, at 4:32 PM, Michael Tierra wrote: > > > Again, Z'ev its interesting and it is what we as free agent teachers > > would > > do but when we look at TCM curriculum I don't see them taught or > > presented > > that way - am I wrong about this? > > > > Michael > > > > > > On Behalf Of Z'ev > > Rosenberg > > Monday, August 31, 2009 4:08 PM > > > > Re: Dr. Huang Huang > > > > Doug, > > I came up with my own formula families and charts about fifteen > > years ago for my formula classes, it is a natural organizing tool. > > The translator of Huang Huang's book, Michael Max, discusses another > > physician Chang Bai-tao, who developed his own system on his wonderful > > website: > > > > http://classicformulas.com/ > > > > > > > > > > > Chair, Department of Herbal Medicine > Pacific College of Oriental Medicine > San Diego, Ca. 92122 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 2, 2009 Report Share Posted September 2, 2009 I have been studying with Huang this year. I think one aspect that makes his work stand out is not just that he teaches formula families. He describes personality types according to herbs and formula families. So, there is a chai hu body type, ban xia, gui zhi, etc. within that, there is a physical and emotional presentation. it goes beyond symptom treatment. his method is constitutional. Cara O. Frank, R. OM Six Fishes China Herb Company Chinese Herb Department Tai Sophia Institute www.carafrank.com 215-772-0770 On Sep 2, 2009, at 3:44 AM, wrote: > I haven't taught herbs or formulas for a while but I could see that, > at least in our quarter system, the whole school has to make the > commitment because students may have 3 different formula or herb > teachers. > It seems that Formula Families could easily be " trans-category " . > Z'ev, did you have to change or tweak curriculum or are you able to > integrate your system within what exists at PCOM? > Doug > > , > <zrosenbe wrote: > > > > You are correct, I am unaware of any schools that organize the > formula > > classes in this fashion. Again, I have done so in my own classes for > > some time now. . . > > > > > > > > On Aug 31, 2009, at 4:32 PM, Michael Tierra wrote: > > > > > Again, Z'ev its interesting and it is what we as free agent > teachers > > > would > > > do but when we look at TCM curriculum I don't see them taught or > > > presented > > > that way - am I wrong about this? > > > > > > Michael > > > > > > > > > On Behalf Of Z'ev > > > Rosenberg > > > Monday, August 31, 2009 4:08 PM > > > > > > Re: Dr. Huang Huang > > > > > > Doug, > > > I came up with my own formula families and charts about fifteen > > > years ago for my formula classes, it is a natural organizing tool. > > > The translator of Huang Huang's book, Michael Max, discusses > another > > > physician Chang Bai-tao, who developed his own system on his > wonderful > > > website: > > > > > > http://classicformulas.com/ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Chair, Department of Herbal Medicine > > Pacific College of Oriental Medicine > > San Diego, Ca. 92122 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 2, 2009 Report Share Posted September 2, 2009 Cara, I haven't studied with Huang Huang yet.... Does he define constitutional types by pulse/abdominal diagnosis or by symptoms/signs? I like his 50 medicinals book. I bought 10 of them. K On Wed, Sep 2, 2009 at 4:29 AM, cara <herbbabe wrote: > I have been studying with Huang this year. I think one aspect that > makes his work stand out is not just that he teaches formula families. > He describes personality types according to herbs and formula > families. So, there is a chai hu body type, ban xia, gui zhi, etc. > within that, there is a physical and emotional presentation. it goes > beyond symptom treatment. his method is constitutional. > > Cara O. Frank, R. OM > Six Fishes > China Herb Company > Director Chinese Herb Department > Tai Sophia Institute > www.carafrank.com > 215-772-0770 > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 2, 2009 Report Share Posted September 2, 2009 Does that mean you now have to learn 500 herbs? ;-) Doug > > I like his 50 medicinals book. I bought 10 of them. > K > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 2, 2009 Report Share Posted September 2, 2009 He bases it on their personality and symtpom presentation and confirms with abd palpation, pulse, tongue ( throat and nasal cavities) and also he palpates the legs/ ankles to check for edema and varicose veins ( looking for bl stasis) there is still space to study with him in New Orleans. I can't recommend it more. He's a pleasure. He's generous with his knowledge. I think he is overjoyed to have american practitioners interested in his work. He's the real deal. I think about herbs and use herbs very differently than I did a year ago. Cara O. Frank, R. OM Six Fishes China Herb Company Chinese Herb Department Tai Sophia Institute www.carafrank.com 215-772-0770 On Sep 2, 2009, at 10:52 AM, wrote: > Cara, > I haven't studied with Huang Huang yet.... > Does he define constitutional types by pulse/abdominal diagnosis or by > symptoms/signs? > > I like his 50 medicinals book. I bought 10 of them. > K > > On Wed, Sep 2, 2009 at 4:29 AM, cara <herbbabe wrote: > > > I have been studying with Huang this year. I think one aspect that > > makes his work stand out is not just that he teaches formula > families. > > He describes personality types according to herbs and formula > > families. So, there is a chai hu body type, ban xia, gui zhi, etc. > > within that, there is a physical and emotional presentation. it goes > > beyond symptom treatment. his method is constitutional. > > > > Cara O. Frank, R. OM > > Six Fishes > > China Herb Company > > Director Chinese Herb Department > > Tai Sophia Institute > > www.carafrank.com > > 215-772-0770 > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 2, 2009 Report Share Posted September 2, 2009 Doug, I simply created formula families in each section of " Formulas and Strategies " . For example, in the blood stasis section, I created a formula family for Wang Qing-ren's prescriptions, with a chart, showing how each prescription is associated with each other and the central prescription, xue fu zhu yu tang/dispel stasis in the mansion of blood decoction. Dr. Wang simply reformulated to create prescriptions for the infra-diaphramatic region, less abdomen, head and orifices, whole body (impediment/bi zheng), etc. In the Shang Han Lun, formula families are inherent in the structure of the text, so I use this in my SHL course at PCOM. Z'ev On Sep 2, 2009, at 12:44 AM, wrote: > I haven't taught herbs or formulas for a while but I could see that, > at least in our quarter system, the whole school has to make the > commitment because students may have 3 different formula or herb > teachers. > It seems that Formula Families could easily be " trans-category " . > Z'ev, did you have to change or tweak curriculum or are you able to > integrate your system within what exists at PCOM? > Doug > > , > <zrosenbe wrote: > > > > You are correct, I am unaware of any schools that organize the > formula > > classes in this fashion. Again, I have done so in my own classes for > > some time now. . . > > > > > > > > On Aug 31, 2009, at 4:32 PM, Michael Tierra wrote: > > > > > Again, Z'ev its interesting and it is what we as free agent > teachers > > > would > > > do but when we look at TCM curriculum I don't see them taught or > > > presented > > > that way - am I wrong about this? > > > > > > Michael > > > > > > > > > On Behalf Of Z'ev > > > Rosenberg > > > Monday, August 31, 2009 4:08 PM > > > > > > Re: Dr. Huang Huang > > > > > > Doug, > > > I came up with my own formula families and charts about fifteen > > > years ago for my formula classes, it is a natural organizing tool. > > > The translator of Huang Huang's book, Michael Max, discusses > another > > > physician Chang Bai-tao, who developed his own system on his > wonderful > > > website: > > > > > > http://classicformulas.com/ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Chair, Department of Herbal Medicine > > Pacific College of Oriental Medicine > > San Diego, Ca. 92122 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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