Guest guest Posted August 28, 2009 Report Share Posted August 28, 2009 I have a new kid that I am treating--a 5 year old whom I will call Alex. I hoped to get some feedback since I haven't treated a lot of kids. Main Complaint: about 1 1/2 months ago he starting sniffing followed by a throat clearing. He had not had an EPI before this and has not had allergies in the past. They tried allergies meds/decongestants and nothing changed. Then he developed a tic with blinking his eyes. Then he developed a bump--like a stye-- on his eyelid. The doctor concluded that all of it was a tic since he did not improve with allergies meds/decongestants. His mother describes him as having a general mood/anger/emotion regulation problem with a bad temper and prone to violence. Also said that he is very resistant to change. She said that at the time that the symptoms started there was a lot of change going on, which he does not handle. They went on a vacation to California and his father was home for a whole month, which was different. My experience with him was that his mother's description was accurate--he was racing around the room--very creative, but also out of control. Cussing even (which made me laugh, further reinforcing the behavior). One thing that is interesting--I treat his uncle, who he looks like. His uncle describes himself as rigid and very resistant to change and says that he has such an intense personality that he has to smoke pot every day to cope. He recently quit smoking pot and his life has become chaotic--he's divorcing his wife and depressed all the time. So maybe there is a inborn predisposition. To me it was a little bit of a red flag when I heard that all these symptoms started when his father was home for a month. But since I know his uncle, there is reason to believe that this is just an inborn temperment. When you ask Alex about his symptoms he says that he does not feeling any pressure or congestion in his nose or throat and that he blinks his eyes like that because, " its just my body " . Which does indeed sound like a tic to me. But the bump on his eyelid makes me think that maybe a pathogen is involved. Any thoughts? The bump is not like a bump you would get from an injury--its like a stye--just a soft, clear swelling. Other stuf: always has had a high appetite, high thirst, and always feels even warmer than most kids. When he needs to have a BM he says, " my stomach hurts " . A month ago he got poison ivy or poison oak. Tends to wake at night with nightmares often. I knew I was going to be lucky to get one point in him, so I went for Liv 2. I left it in for about 7 minutes. Thoughts anyone? Thanks for any feedback! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 28, 2009 Report Share Posted August 28, 2009 Get a social worker involved? --- On Thu, 8/27/09, heylaurag <heylaurag wrote: heylaurag <heylaurag Interesting child patient Chinese Medicine Thursday, August 27, 2009, 10:39 PM I have a new kid that I am treating--a 5 year old whom I will call Alex. I hoped to get some feedback since I haven't treated a lot of kids. Main Complaint: about 1 1/2 months ago he starting sniffing followed by a throat clearing. He had not had an EPI before this and has not had allergies in the past. They tried allergies meds/decongestants and nothing changed. Then he developed a tic with blinking his eyes. Then he developed a bump--like a stye-- on his eyelid. The doctor concluded that all of it was a tic since he did not improve with allergies meds/decongestants. His mother describes him as having a general mood/anger/emotion regulation problem with a bad temper and prone to violence. Also said that he is very resistant to change. She said that at the time that the symptoms started there was a lot of change going on, which he does not handle. They went on a vacation to California and his father was home for a whole month, which was different. My experience with him was that his mother's description was accurate--he was racing around the room--very creative, but also out of control. Cussing even (which made me laugh, further reinforcing the behavior). One thing that is interesting- -I treat his uncle, who he looks like. His uncle describes himself as rigid and very resistant to change and says that he has such an intense personality that he has to smoke pot every day to cope. He recently quit smoking pot and his life has become chaotic--he' s divorcing his wife and depressed all the time. So maybe there is a inborn predisposition. To me it was a little bit of a red flag when I heard that all these symptoms started when his father was home for a month. But since I know his uncle, there is reason to believe that this is just an inborn temperment. When you ask Alex about his symptoms he says that he does not feeling any pressure or congestion in his nose or throat and that he blinks his eyes like that because, " its just my body " . Which does indeed sound like a tic to me. But the bump on his eyelid makes me think that maybe a pathogen is involved. Any thoughts? The bump is not like a bump you would get from an injury--its like a stye--just a soft, clear swelling. Other stuf: always has had a high appetite, high thirst, and always feels even warmer than most kids. When he needs to have a BM he says, " my stomach hurts " . A month ago he got poison ivy or poison oak. Tends to wake at night with nightmares often. I knew I was going to be lucky to get one point in him, so I went for Liv 2. I left it in for about 7 minutes. Thoughts anyone? Thanks for any feedback! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 28, 2009 Report Share Posted August 28, 2009 This does not seem a case of inborn (genetic) predisposition, although I think that it does seem to deal with deep family issues. It feels really strange to look at it, however a boy that starts to behave strangely when dad IS at home (when he would normally be happy) was not born like this, it seems rather as if something more is going on in the family (and the mother didn't tell you because she does not have the conscience of it), esp. problem relationship of the mother and father. Ticking is this boy´s way to appear as a member of the family and be looked at... Apart from it, he probably has a TCM pattern and can be somewhat predisposed to this kind of symptoms. But I would look at the psychological aspect of the relashionships among father, mother and son. I sometimes take this complimentary approach when dealing with too problemmatic pets... treat the dog with acupuncture, ask and listen to the owner a lot, and advise the owner to get treatment also (TCM, psychological, ...).. I like working w. family constellations therapy in the cases I feel the problem lies deep in the family structure. Thats how I feel about it, no previous experience with 8 yo kids... Clarissa Niciporciukas Vet in Brazil > I have a new kid that I am treating--a 5 year old whom I will call > Alex. I hoped to get some feedback since I haven't treated a lot of > kids. > > Main Complaint: about 1 1/2 months ago he starting sniffing > followed by a throat clearing. He had not had an EPI before this > and has not had allergies in the past. They tried allergies > meds/decongestants and nothing changed. Then he developed a tic > with blinking his eyes. Then he developed a bump--like a stye-- on > his eyelid. > > The doctor concluded that all of it was a tic since he did not > improve with allergies meds/decongestants. His mother describes him > as having a general mood/anger/emotion regulation problem with a > bad temper and prone to violence. Also said that he is very > resistant to change. She said that at the time that the symptoms > started there was a lot of change going on, which he does not > handle. They went on a vacation to California and his father was > home for a whole month, which was different. > > My experience with him was that his mother's description was > accurate--he was racing around the room--very creative, but also out > of control. Cussing even (which made me laugh, further reinforcing > the behavior). > > One thing that is interesting--I treat his uncle, who he looks like. > His uncle describes himself as rigid and very resistant to change > and says that he has such an intense personality that he has to > smoke pot every day to cope. He recently quit smoking pot and his > life has become chaotic--he's divorcing his wife and depressed all > the time. > > So maybe there is a inborn predisposition. To me it was a little > bit of a red flag when I heard that all these symptoms started when > his father was home for a month. But since I know his uncle, there > is reason to believe that this is just an inborn temperment. > > When you ask Alex about his symptoms he says that he does not > feeling any pressure or congestion in his nose or throat and that he > blinks his eyes like that because, " its just my body " . Which does > indeed sound like a tic to me. But the bump on his eyelid makes me > think that maybe a pathogen is involved. Any thoughts? The bump is > not like a bump you would get from an injury--its like a stye--just > a soft, clear swelling. > > Other stuf: always has had a high appetite, high thirst, and always > feels even warmer than most kids. When he needs to have a BM he > says, " my stomach hurts " . A month ago he got poison ivy or poison > oak. Tends to wake at night with nightmares often. > > I knew I was going to be lucky to get one point in him, so I went > for Liv 2. I left it in for about 7 minutes. > > Thoughts anyone? Thanks for any feedback! > > > > -- " O essencial é simples " - Bert Hellinger Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 28, 2009 Report Share Posted August 28, 2009 Hi Laura, I am responding to the case you put up below. Though I appreciate the heads up to refer this family to social workers and look at the family dynamics, the family has brought this child to you which means they are looking for an energetic/Chinese medical perspective. Even if the cause of the imbalance is the family, the effect is in part energetic and somatic and that is where you can be helpful. Yet, before being able to go for an herbal or acupuncture strategy, I'd want to know the following: Does he sweat a lot? Is his skin moist or dry? How is his sleep? What color is his tongue? What is his body type? I'd like to see if he has tension under his subcostal area with palpation (not subjective) and if there is any pressure pain around St 27 on either side of his belly (blood stasis areas). If you could get back to us with answers to these questions, I bet we could narrow down some options that would help a lot. Without knowing the answers, any help I had to offer would be a sort of show in the dark. I have several thoughts though. I don't know a ton about treating kids but have worked successfully with kids with behavioral/ ADD/emotional issues that are somatized. Sometimes it can be very effective and helpful. If there is a bad home situation, we may not be able to help that too much without referring but we could help it not effect his body so intensely. This would really help him cope with the other stuff while it is being worked out. Best Sharon Laura Wrote: I have a new kid that I am treating--a 5 year old whom I will call Alex. I hoped to get some feedback since I haven't treated a lot of kids. Main Complaint: about 1 1/2 months ago he starting sniffing followed by a throat clearing. He had not had an EPI before this and has not had allergies in the past. They tried allergies meds/decongestants and nothing changed. Then he developed a tic with blinking his eyes. Then he developed a bump--like a stye-- on his eyelid. The doctor concluded that all of it was a tic since he did not improve with allergies meds/decongestants. His mother describes him as having a general mood/anger/emotion regulation problem with a bad temper and prone to violence. Also said that he is very resistant to change. She said that at the time that the symptoms started there was a lot of change going on, which he does not handle. They went on a vacation to California and his father was home for a whole month, which was different. My experience with him was that his mother's description was accurate-- he was racing around the room--very creative, but also out of control. Cussing even (which made me laugh, further reinforcing the behavior). One thing that is interesting--I treat his uncle, who he looks like. His uncle describes himself as rigid and very resistant to change and says that he has such an intense personality that he has to smoke pot every day to cope. He recently quit smoking pot and his life has become chaotic--he's divorcing his wife and depressed all the time. So maybe there is a inborn predisposition. To me it was a little bit of a red flag when I heard that all these symptoms started when his father was home for a month. But since I know his uncle, there is reason to believe that this is just an inborn temperment. When you ask Alex about his symptoms he says that he does not feeling any pressure or congestion in his nose or throat and that he blinks his eyes like that because, " its just my body " . Which does indeed sound like a tic to me. But the bump on his eyelid makes me think that maybe a pathogen is involved. Any thoughts? The bump is not like a bump you would get from an injury--its like a stye--just a soft, clear swelling. Other stuf: always has had a high appetite, high thirst, and always feels even warmer than most kids. When he needs to have a BM he says, " my stomach hurts " . A month ago he got poison ivy or poison oak. Tends to wake at night with nightmares often. I knew I was going to be lucky to get one point in him, so I went for Liv 2. I left it in for about 7 minutes. Thoughts anyone? Thanks for any feedback! Sharon Weizenbaum 86 Henry Street Amherst, MA 01002 www.whitepinehealingarts.com sweiz Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 28, 2009 Report Share Posted August 28, 2009 This case is more than interesting. I would like this mother and child to be treated with utter respect and sincerity. She needs validation that her situation is difficult and he needs to feel safe in your environment. Think about giving the childs treatment (needles) to his mother (as surrogate). In this situation mother and child could be seen as the same organism. Difficult child in single mother scenario can create a reality that social consciousness has great difficulty interpreting correctly. Every dead end and trip to a specialist can magnify the isolation. Make your sessions with this family as real as you can so they feel your sincere intention. My words come from life experience. I was that mother. My son is now 21. He is very special and being his mother is not easy. But I volunteered for this assignment and I can do it. Reassure this mother of how strong she really is. Let her know she can do it and kids like hers are real, do exist, and may defy a multitude of specialists. Conventional wisdom may be unconvinced that somehow this is her fault. It is not her fault. Janis Egan Sent from my iPhone On Aug 27, 2009, at 9:39 PM, " heylaurag " <heylaurag wrote: I have a new kid that I am treating--a 5 year old whom I will call Alex. I hoped to get some feedback since I haven't treated a lot of kids. Main Complaint: about 1 1/2 months ago he starting sniffing followed by a throat clearing. He had not had an EPI before this and has not had allergies in the past. They tried allergies meds/decongestants and nothing changed. Then he developed a tic with blinking his eyes. Then he developed a bump--like a stye-- on his eyelid. The doctor concluded that all of it was a tic since he did not improve with allergies meds/decongestants. His mother describes him as having a general mood/anger/emotion regulation problem with a bad temper and prone to violence. Also said that he is very resistant to change. She said that at the time that the symptoms started there was a lot of change going on, which he does not handle. They went on a vacation to California and his father was home for a whole month, which was different. My experience with him was that his mother's description was accurate--he was racing around the room--very creative, but also out of control. Cussing even (which made me laugh, further reinforcing the behavior). One thing that is interesting--I treat his uncle, who he looks like. His uncle describes himself as rigid and very resistant to change and says that he has such an intense personality that he has to smoke pot every day to cope. He recently quit smoking pot and his life has become chaotic--he's divorcing his wife and depressed all the time. So maybe there is a inborn predisposition. To me it was a little bit of a red flag when I heard that all these symptoms started when his father was home for a month. But since I know his uncle, there is reason to believe that this is just an inborn temperment. When you ask Alex about his symptoms he says that he does not feeling any pressure or congestion in his nose or throat and that he blinks his eyes like that because, " its just my body " . Which does indeed sound like a tic to me. But the bump on his eyelid makes me think that maybe a pathogen is involved. Any thoughts? The bump is not like a bump you would get from an injury--its like a stye--just a soft, clear swelling. Other stuf: always has had a high appetite, high thirst, and always feels even warmer than most kids. When he needs to have a BM he says, " my stomach hurts " . A month ago he got poison ivy or poison oak. Tends to wake at night with nightmares often. I knew I was going to be lucky to get one point in him, so I went for Liv 2. I left it in for about 7 minutes. Thoughts anyone? Thanks for any feedback! --- Subscribe to the free online journal for TCM at Times http://www.chinesemedicinetimes.com Help build the world's largest online encyclopedia for Chinese medicine and acupuncture, click, http://www.chinesemedicinetimes.com/wiki/CMTpedia and adjust accordingly. Please consider the environment and only print this message if absolutely necessary. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 28, 2009 Report Share Posted August 28, 2009 Have him checked for Lyme Disease. The dad being home was the significant emotional event that triggered the dormant infection. Make sure it is a Lyme dr that knows how to check for it. I have not seen alot of lyme kids but the ones I have seen have had a particular tongue. What does his tongue look like just out of curiosity. --- On Thu, 8/27/09, mystir <ykcul_ritsym wrote: mystir <ykcul_ritsym Re: Interesting child patient Chinese Medicine Thursday, August 27, 2009, 10:56 PM Get a social worker involved? --- On Thu, 8/27/09, heylaurag <heylaurag (AT) hotmail (DOT) com> wrote: heylaurag <heylaurag (AT) hotmail (DOT) com> Interesting child patient Thursday, August 27, 2009, 10:39 PM I have a new kid that I am treating--a 5 year old whom I will call Alex. I hoped to get some feedback since I haven't treated a lot of kids. Main Complaint: about 1 1/2 months ago he starting sniffing followed by a throat clearing. He had not had an EPI before this and has not had allergies in the past. They tried allergies meds/decongestants and nothing changed. Then he developed a tic with blinking his eyes. Then he developed a bump--like a stye-- on his eyelid. The doctor concluded that all of it was a tic since he did not improve with allergies meds/decongestants. His mother describes him as having a general mood/anger/emotion regulation problem with a bad temper and prone to violence. Also said that he is very resistant to change. She said that at the time that the symptoms started there was a lot of change going on, which he does not handle. They went on a vacation to California and his father was home for a whole month, which was different. My experience with him was that his mother's description was accurate--he was racing around the room--very creative, but also out of control. Cussing even (which made me laugh, further reinforcing the behavior). One thing that is interesting- -I treat his uncle, who he looks like. His uncle describes himself as rigid and very resistant to change and says that he has such an intense personality that he has to smoke pot every day to cope. He recently quit smoking pot and his life has become chaotic--he' s divorcing his wife and depressed all the time. So maybe there is a inborn predisposition. To me it was a little bit of a red flag when I heard that all these symptoms started when his father was home for a month. But since I know his uncle, there is reason to believe that this is just an inborn temperment. When you ask Alex about his symptoms he says that he does not feeling any pressure or congestion in his nose or throat and that he blinks his eyes like that because, " its just my body " . Which does indeed sound like a tic to me. But the bump on his eyelid makes me think that maybe a pathogen is involved. Any thoughts? The bump is not like a bump you would get from an injury--its like a stye--just a soft, clear swelling. Other stuf: always has had a high appetite, high thirst, and always feels even warmer than most kids. When he needs to have a BM he says, " my stomach hurts " . A month ago he got poison ivy or poison oak. Tends to wake at night with nightmares often. I knew I was going to be lucky to get one point in him, so I went for Liv 2. I left it in for about 7 minutes. Thoughts anyone? Thanks for any feedback! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 28, 2009 Report Share Posted August 28, 2009 I would definitely refer her to an experienced child psychologist, but I would also stick to the TCM treatment, sounds like wind heat to me. I would capsule the herbs and tell the mother to reward the kid for taking them. Homeopathy can also work wonders in children; I would NOT recommend a psychiatrist because medication often leads to some life-long dependency of drugs that cause side-effects. However, once he enters school the mother will come under severe pressure to medicate him. Some of these symptoms are consistent with Aspergers; especially the tic and the fact that a relative has similar symptoms. Regards, Angela Pfaffenberger, Ph.D. angelapfa www.InnerhealthSalem.com Phone: 503 364 3022 - Janis Egan Chinese Medicine Friday, August 28, 2009 8:02 AM Re: Interesting child patient This case is more than interesting. I would like this mother and child to be treated with utter respect and sincerity. She needs validation that her situation is difficult and he needs to feel safe in your environment. Think about giving the childs treatment (needles) to his mother (as surrogate). In this situation mother and child could be seen as the same organism. Difficult child in single mother scenario can create a reality that social consciousness has great difficulty interpreting correctly. Every dead end and trip to a specialist can magnify the isolation. Make your sessions with this family as real as you can so they feel your sincere intention. My words come from life experience. I was that mother. My son is now 21. He is very special and being his mother is not easy. But I volunteered for this assignment and I can do it. Reassure this mother of how strong she really is. Let her know she can do it and kids like hers are real, do exist, and may defy a multitude of specialists. Conventional wisdom may be unconvinced that somehow this is her fault. It is not her fault. Janis Egan Sent from my iPhone On Aug 27, 2009, at 9:39 PM, " heylaurag " <heylaurag wrote: I have a new kid that I am treating--a 5 year old whom I will call Alex. I hoped to get some feedback since I haven't treated a lot of kids. Main Complaint: about 1 1/2 months ago he starting sniffing followed by a throat clearing. He had not had an EPI before this and has not had allergies in the past. They tried allergies meds/decongestants and nothing changed. Then he developed a tic with blinking his eyes. Then he developed a bump--like a stye-- on his eyelid. The doctor concluded that all of it was a tic since he did not improve with allergies meds/decongestants. His mother describes him as having a general mood/anger/emotion regulation problem with a bad temper and prone to violence. Also said that he is very resistant to change. She said that at the time that the symptoms started there was a lot of change going on, which he does not handle. They went on a vacation to California and his father was home for a whole month, which was different. My experience with him was that his mother's description was accurate--he was racing around the room--very creative, but also out of control. Cussing even (which made me laugh, further reinforcing the behavior). One thing that is interesting--I treat his uncle, who he looks like. His uncle describes himself as rigid and very resistant to change and says that he has such an intense personality that he has to smoke pot every day to cope. He recently quit smoking pot and his life has become chaotic--he's divorcing his wife and depressed all the time. So maybe there is a inborn predisposition. To me it was a little bit of a red flag when I heard that all these symptoms started when his father was home for a month. But since I know his uncle, there is reason to believe that this is just an inborn temperment. When you ask Alex about his symptoms he says that he does not feeling any pressure or congestion in his nose or throat and that he blinks his eyes like that because, " its just my body " . Which does indeed sound like a tic to me. But the bump on his eyelid makes me think that maybe a pathogen is involved. Any thoughts? The bump is not like a bump you would get from an injury--its like a stye--just a soft, clear swelling. Other stuf: always has had a high appetite, high thirst, and always feels even warmer than most kids. When he needs to have a BM he says, " my stomach hurts " . A month ago he got poison ivy or poison oak. Tends to wake at night with nightmares often. I knew I was going to be lucky to get one point in him, so I went for Liv 2. I left it in for about 7 minutes. Thoughts anyone? Thanks for any feedback! --- Subscribe to the free online journal for TCM at Times http://www.chinesemedicinetimes.com Help build the world's largest online encyclopedia for Chinese medicine and acupuncture, click, http://www.chinesemedicinetimes.com/wiki/CMTpedia and adjust accordingly. Please consider the environment and only print this message if absolutely necessary. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 29, 2009 Report Share Posted August 29, 2009 Thanks for all of your thoughts on this child. One thing I should mention--I have an MSW and was a psychiatric social worker before going into TCM. So that is helpful in some ways, but frustrating in others because its not really my role to deal with the pyshodynamics of their relationship. The mother definitely could use some guidance in knowing how to handle him, eg: when he was being resistant to letting needle him she started yelling at him and telling him, " We can go home RIGHT NOW!! " . Probably not the best approach, but at the same time I do understand that it must be very tiring to be his mother given how intense and high energy he is. The mother has a bit of a proud air (and this fits how she has been described by several family members that I treat), so it might be hard to find many openings to offer much guidance or a referral to a therapist. But I plan to watch for an opening and use it if I find it. Oherwise I think I need to stay focused on my role--treating him with TCM and maybe trying to role model some more healthy ways of responding to him. Interesting that you mention Asperbers--his uncle's wife has actually talked about wondering if the uncle has Asperbers and I have thought that he might. I only know a little about it though. Most of the diagnostic info that I have to offer was written in the original post, eg:--someone asked about sleep, and as I wrote he tends to wake frequently and have a lot of nightmares. Also, as I wrote, high thirst and appetite. Red hair. Normal 5 year old body from what I can see. I couldn't get a good look at his tongue because he was squirming around and being resistant to letting me see it. I just decided to descend this boys yang since I knew I'd be lucky to get one point in--so I did Liv 2. Chinese Medicine , " Angela Pfaffenberger, PH.D. " <angelapfa wrote: > > I would definitely refer her to an experienced child psychologist, but I would also stick to the TCM treatment, sounds like wind heat to me. I would capsule the herbs and tell the mother to reward the kid for taking them. Homeopathy can also work wonders in children; I would NOT recommend a psychiatrist because medication often leads to some life-long dependency of drugs that cause side-effects. However, once he enters school the mother will come under severe pressure to medicate him. Some of these symptoms are consistent with Aspergers; especially the tic and the fact that a relative has similar symptoms. > > Regards, > Angela Pfaffenberger, Ph.D. > > angelapfa > > www.InnerhealthSalem.com > > Phone: 503 364 3022 > - > Janis Egan > Chinese Medicine > Friday, August 28, 2009 8:02 AM > Re: Interesting child patient > > > This case is more than interesting. I would like this mother and child to be treated with utter respect and sincerity. She needs validation that her situation is difficult and he needs to feel safe in your environment. Think about giving the childs treatment (needles) to his mother (as surrogate). In this situation mother and child could be seen as the same organism. Difficult child in single mother scenario can create a reality that social consciousness has great difficulty interpreting correctly. Every dead end and trip to a specialist can magnify the isolation. Make your sessions with this family as real as you can so they feel your sincere intention. > > My words come from life experience. I was that mother. My son is now 21. He is very special and being his mother is not easy. But I volunteered for this assignment and I can do it. > > Reassure this mother of how strong she really is. Let her know she can do it and kids like hers are real, do exist, and may defy a multitude of specialists. Conventional wisdom may be unconvinced that somehow this is her fault. It is not her fault. > > Janis Egan > > Sent from my iPhone > > On Aug 27, 2009, at 9:39 PM, " heylaurag " <heylaurag wrote: > > I have a new kid that I am treating--a 5 year old whom I will call Alex. I hoped to get some feedback since I haven't treated a lot of kids. > > Main Complaint: about 1 1/2 months ago he starting sniffing followed by a throat clearing. He had not had an EPI before this and has not had allergies in the past. They tried allergies meds/decongestants and nothing changed. Then he developed a tic with blinking his eyes. Then he developed a bump--like a stye-- on his eyelid. > > The doctor concluded that all of it was a tic since he did not improve with allergies meds/decongestants. His mother describes him as having a general mood/anger/emotion regulation problem with a bad temper and prone to violence. Also said that he is very resistant to change. She said that at the time that the symptoms started there was a lot of change going on, which he does not handle. They went on a vacation to California and his father was home for a whole month, which was different. > > My experience with him was that his mother's description was accurate--he was racing around the room--very creative, but also out of control. Cussing even (which made me laugh, further reinforcing the behavior). > > One thing that is interesting--I treat his uncle, who he looks like. His uncle describes himself as rigid and very resistant to change and says that he has such an intense personality that he has to smoke pot every day to cope. He recently quit smoking pot and his life has become chaotic--he's divorcing his wife and depressed all the time. > > So maybe there is a inborn predisposition. To me it was a little bit of a red flag when I heard that all these symptoms started when his father was home for a month. But since I know his uncle, there is reason to believe that this is just an inborn temperment. > > When you ask Alex about his symptoms he says that he does not feeling any pressure or congestion in his nose or throat and that he blinks his eyes like that because, " its just my body " . Which does indeed sound like a tic to me. But the bump on his eyelid makes me think that maybe a pathogen is involved. Any thoughts? The bump is not like a bump you would get from an injury--its like a stye--just a soft, clear swelling. > > Other stuf: always has had a high appetite, high thirst, and always feels even warmer than most kids. When he needs to have a BM he says, " my stomach hurts " . A month ago he got poison ivy or poison oak. Tends to wake at night with nightmares often. > > I knew I was going to be lucky to get one point in him, so I went for Liv 2. I left it in for about 7 minutes. > > Thoughts anyone? Thanks for any feedback! > > --- > > Subscribe to the free online journal for TCM at Times http://www.chinesemedicinetimes.com > > Help build the world's largest online encyclopedia for Chinese medicine and acupuncture, click, http://www.chinesemedicinetimes.com/wiki/CMTpedia > > and adjust accordingly. > > > > Please consider the environment and only print this message if absolutely necessary. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 29, 2009 Report Share Posted August 29, 2009 I treat a number of kids. I find that it is often easiest to start with acupressure, which I teach the parent to do daily and diet. With kids they are very easy to over correct, so I find a more gentle approach has the best result. Usually after a few sessions kids are so curious about the acupuncture they are begging to be needled. Though by the time they want it they usually don't need it. I will give them one point just because they asked. I also frequently use ear seeds and herbs. Be well, Bob Robert Linde, AP, RH Professional Herbalists Training Program Acupuncture & Herbal Therapies 901 Central Ave St. Petersburg, FL 33705 www.acuherbals.com 727-551-0857 --- On Fri, 8/28/09, heylaurag <heylaurag wrote: heylaurag <heylaurag Re: Interesting child patient Chinese Medicine Friday, August 28, 2009, 8:41 PM Thanks for all of your thoughts on this child. One thing I should mention--I have an MSW and was a psychiatric social worker before going into TCM. So that is helpful in some ways, but frustrating in others because its not really my role to deal with the pyshodynamics of their relationship. The mother definitely could use some guidance in knowing how to handle him, eg: when he was being resistant to letting needle him she started yelling at him and telling him, " We can go home RIGHT NOW!! " . Probably not the best approach, but at the same time I do understand that it must be very tiring to be his mother given how intense and high energy he is. The mother has a bit of a proud air (and this fits how she has been described by several family members that I treat), so it might be hard to find many openings to offer much guidance or a referral to a therapist. But I plan to watch for an opening and use it if I find it. Oherwise I think I need to stay focused on my role--treating him with TCM and maybe trying to role model some more healthy ways of responding to him. Interesting that you mention Asperbers--his uncle's wife has actually talked about wondering if the uncle has Asperbers and I have thought that he might. I only know a little about it though. Most of the diagnostic info that I have to offer was written in the original post, eg:--someone asked about sleep, and as I wrote he tends to wake frequently and have a lot of nightmares. Also, as I wrote, high thirst and appetite. Red hair. Normal 5 year old body from what I can see. I couldn't get a good look at his tongue because he was squirming around and being resistant to letting me see it. I just decided to descend this boys yang since I knew I'd be lucky to get one point in--so I did Liv 2. Traditional_ Chinese_Medicine , " Angela Pfaffenberger, PH.D. " <angelapfa@. ..> wrote: > > I would definitely refer her to an experienced child psychologist, but I would also stick to the TCM treatment, sounds like wind heat to me. I would capsule the herbs and tell the mother to reward the kid for taking them. Homeopathy can also work wonders in children; I would NOT recommend a psychiatrist because medication often leads to some life-long dependency of drugs that cause side-effects. However, once he enters school the mother will come under severe pressure to medicate him. Some of these symptoms are consistent with Aspergers; especially the tic and the fact that a relative has similar symptoms. > > Regards, > Angela Pfaffenberger, Ph.D. > > angelapfa@.. . > > www.InnerhealthSale m.com > > Phone: 503 364 3022 > - > Janis Egan > > Friday, August 28, 2009 8:02 AM > Re: Interesting child patient > > > This case is more than interesting. I would like this mother and child to be treated with utter respect and sincerity. She needs validation that her situation is difficult and he needs to feel safe in your environment. Think about giving the childs treatment (needles) to his mother (as surrogate). In this situation mother and child could be seen as the same organism. Difficult child in single mother scenario can create a reality that social consciousness has great difficulty interpreting correctly. Every dead end and trip to a specialist can magnify the isolation. Make your sessions with this family as real as you can so they feel your sincere intention. > > My words come from life experience. I was that mother. My son is now 21. He is very special and being his mother is not easy. But I volunteered for this assignment and I can do it. > > Reassure this mother of how strong she really is. Let her know she can do it and kids like hers are real, do exist, and may defy a multitude of specialists. Conventional wisdom may be unconvinced that somehow this is her fault. It is not her fault. > > Janis Egan > > Sent from my iPhone > > On Aug 27, 2009, at 9:39 PM, " heylaurag " <heylaurag@. ..> wrote: > > I have a new kid that I am treating--a 5 year old whom I will call Alex. I hoped to get some feedback since I haven't treated a lot of kids. > > Main Complaint: about 1 1/2 months ago he starting sniffing followed by a throat clearing. He had not had an EPI before this and has not had allergies in the past. They tried allergies meds/decongestants and nothing changed. Then he developed a tic with blinking his eyes. Then he developed a bump--like a stye-- on his eyelid. > > The doctor concluded that all of it was a tic since he did not improve with allergies meds/decongestants. His mother describes him as having a general mood/anger/emotion regulation problem with a bad temper and prone to violence. Also said that he is very resistant to change. She said that at the time that the symptoms started there was a lot of change going on, which he does not handle. They went on a vacation to California and his father was home for a whole month, which was different. > > My experience with him was that his mother's description was accurate--he was racing around the room--very creative, but also out of control. Cussing even (which made me laugh, further reinforcing the behavior). > > One thing that is interesting- -I treat his uncle, who he looks like. His uncle describes himself as rigid and very resistant to change and says that he has such an intense personality that he has to smoke pot every day to cope. He recently quit smoking pot and his life has become chaotic--he' s divorcing his wife and depressed all the time. > > So maybe there is a inborn predisposition. To me it was a little bit of a red flag when I heard that all these symptoms started when his father was home for a month. But since I know his uncle, there is reason to believe that this is just an inborn temperment. > > When you ask Alex about his symptoms he says that he does not feeling any pressure or congestion in his nose or throat and that he blinks his eyes like that because, " its just my body " . Which does indeed sound like a tic to me. But the bump on his eyelid makes me think that maybe a pathogen is involved. Any thoughts? The bump is not like a bump you would get from an injury--its like a stye--just a soft, clear swelling. > > Other stuf: always has had a high appetite, high thirst, and always feels even warmer than most kids. When he needs to have a BM he says, " my stomach hurts " . A month ago he got poison ivy or poison oak. Tends to wake at night with nightmares often. > > I knew I was going to be lucky to get one point in him, so I went for Liv 2. I left it in for about 7 minutes. > > Thoughts anyone? Thanks for any feedback! > > ------------ --------- --------- ------ > > Subscribe to the free online journal for TCM at Times http://www.chinesem edicinetimes. com > > Help build the world's largest online encyclopedia for Chinese medicine and acupuncture, click, http://www.chinesem edicinetimes. com/wiki/ CMTpedia > > http://groups. / group/Traditiona l_Chinese_ Medicine/ join and adjust accordingly. > > > > Please consider the environment and only print this message if absolutely necessary. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 29, 2009 Report Share Posted August 29, 2009 The suggestion I made about getting a social worker involved was only to have a little light shed into this scene. I have seen some of this too. This is a tight group, and the child is bearing the brunt of the negativity here. Everybody elese has their excuses for being just fine. Aspergers or adhd is suspect in a really classic hereditary way. The mother who is quick to anger at the kid in a situation like this, is still closed, I think not blaming herself, and, not seeing the boy as suffering, not sympathetic. Something is not right here Social workers can be a waste of time in that they can interfere with the relationship the parent and child need to develop. some are just be clock watchers, and some are clueless, some are unhealed victims, an some are sharp. When there is somebody trapped in a funky family dynamic, they can be a confidant and ally. Sure treat the boy. Be caring, massage is a great idea, you can also tell from reaction if there is privacy issues. Without dancing around the point here, I want to say child abuse; sexually, physically, verbally. and through neglect is still epidemic. We're still animals to each other, seriously. But what do you do if in your part of the world it's more common than not, where a mother because of her upbringing, turns a blind eye to it and enables uncle hairy face to be in the laundry with the child. I've seen this too, and I'm sure others have, where a mother lets an abuser near her kid, because 1) fear and fascination- she's caught-replaying the hazy crazy days, and 2) it validates her, it happens to other people. There is a lot a disconnect and misdirection in abuse. If this is something you have no stomach for, or can't face it, you miss the presentation. There are all kinds and levels, and triggers. I am not saying this is what is happening here. Maybe it is innocently something to address in the child. I wasn't abused myself, but I was surprised to find out how many were and are, in the craziest of ways it gets transmitted. Most, most. A little light may not hurt. --- On Fri, 8/28/09, Janis Egan <janis3934 wrote: Janis Egan <janis3934 Re: Interesting child patient " Chinese Medicine " <Chinese Medicine > Friday, August 28, 2009, 11:02 AM This case is more than interesting. I would like this mother and child to be treated with utter respect and sincerity. She needs validation that her situation is difficult and he needs to feel safe in your environment. Think about giving the childs treatment (needles) to his mother (as surrogate). In this situation mother and child could be seen as the same organism. Difficult child in single mother scenario can create a reality that social consciousness has great difficulty interpreting correctly. Every dead end and trip to a specialist can magnify the isolation. Make your sessions with this family as real as you can so they feel your sincere intention. My words come from life experience. I was that mother. My son is now 21. He is very special and being his mother is not easy. But I volunteered for this assignment and I can do it. Reassure this mother of how strong she really is. Let her know she can do it and kids like hers are real, do exist, and may defy a multitude of specialists. Conventional wisdom may be unconvinced that somehow this is her fault. It is not her fault. Janis Egan Sent from my iPhone On Aug 27, 2009, at 9:39 PM, " heylaurag " <heylaurag (AT) hotmail (DOT) com> wrote: I have a new kid that I am treating--a 5 year old whom I will call Alex. I hoped to get some feedback since I haven't treated a lot of kids. Main Complaint: about 1 1/2 months ago he starting sniffing followed by a throat clearing. He had not had an EPI before this and has not had allergies in the past. They tried allergies meds/decongestants and nothing changed. Then he developed a tic with blinking his eyes. Then he developed a bump--like a stye-- on his eyelid. The doctor concluded that all of it was a tic since he did not improve with allergies meds/decongestants. His mother describes him as having a general mood/anger/emotion regulation problem with a bad temper and prone to violence. Also said that he is very resistant to change. She said that at the time that the symptoms started there was a lot of change going on, which he does not handle. They went on a vacation to California and his father was home for a whole month, which was different. My experience with him was that his mother's description was accurate--he was racing around the room--very creative, but also out of control. Cussing even (which made me laugh, further reinforcing the behavior). One thing that is interesting- -I treat his uncle, who he looks like. His uncle describes himself as rigid and very resistant to change and says that he has such an intense personality that he has to smoke pot every day to cope. He recently quit smoking pot and his life has become chaotic--he' s divorcing his wife and depressed all the time. So maybe there is a inborn predisposition. To me it was a little bit of a red flag when I heard that all these symptoms started when his father was home for a month. But since I know his uncle, there is reason to believe that this is just an inborn temperment. When you ask Alex about his symptoms he says that he does not feeling any pressure or congestion in his nose or throat and that he blinks his eyes like that because, " its just my body " . Which does indeed sound like a tic to me. But the bump on his eyelid makes me think that maybe a pathogen is involved. Any thoughts? The bump is not like a bump you would get from an injury--its like a stye--just a soft, clear swelling. Other stuf: always has had a high appetite, high thirst, and always feels even warmer than most kids. When he needs to have a BM he says, " my stomach hurts " . A month ago he got poison ivy or poison oak. Tends to wake at night with nightmares often. I knew I was going to be lucky to get one point in him, so I went for Liv 2. I left it in for about 7 minutes. Thoughts anyone? Thanks for any feedback! ------------ --------- --------- ------ Subscribe to the free online journal for TCM at Times http://www.chinesem edicinetimes. com Help build the world's largest online encyclopedia for Chinese medicine and acupuncture, click, http://www.chinesem edicinetimes. com/wiki/ CMTpedia http://groups. / group/Traditiona l_Chinese_ Medicine/ join and adjust accordingly. Please consider the environment and only print this message if absolutely necessary. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 29, 2009 Report Share Posted August 29, 2009 Hi Laura, I have a couple of diagnostic and formula suggestions based on what you have written about this child. We know heat for sure because he feels hot. This helps explain a lot too like his restlessness, hunger, thirst. We know Shao Yang or Liver involvement because of the tendency to anger. The Liver involvement helps explain the internal wind symptoms of movement and tics and rigidity of personality. The Shao Yang involvement helps explain the throat and eye symptoms. We know then that there is a hot liver and the hunger and thirst let us know that the heat is in the Stomach while the pain with bowel movement let's us know there is stasis in the Large Intestine. So heat is not moving through the Yang Ming but is rather getting stuck there. Based on this we want to clear heat and we will need to do it through the Shao Yang and Yang Ming. I would suggest a combination of Chai Hu Jia Long Gu Mu Li Tang and Ma Xing Shi Gan Tang. I know Ma Xing Shi Gan Tang (Also called Ma Xing Gan Shi Tang) seems odd but Nigel Dawes taught us in our Kanpo class to use this for a Yang Ming heat pediatric formula. It is especially useful if there is a left side St. 27 reaction showing oketsu/blood stasis. It has very little Ma Huang and a large dose of Shi Gao. Shi Gao is a wonderful herb for pediatric use. I recently used it to treat a 14 year old for ADD very successfully - in this case I used Bai Hu Tang. He was hot, thirsty and sweaty. The sweatiness does not need to be so strong for Ma Xing Shi Gan Tang as for Bai Hu Tang. Ma Xing Shi Gan Tang also gently opens the bowel with the Xing Ren and you could add Tao Ren as well, though you would not need to do this if you combine the formula with Chai Hu Jia Long Gu Mu LI Tang. We used it for a 6 year old here who developed chronic heat rash and insomnia with some low grade constipation along with allergies after a cold. She had the oketsu/ blood stasis reaction at left side ST. 27. It worked like a charm. You could easily combine this with Chai Hu Jia Long Gu Mu Li Tang. This would open the Shao Yang heat and settle him down. In terms of acupuncture or acupressure you can use the same ideas - working with Shao Yang (3 heater and pericardium) and Yang Ming channels to calm and clear heat. LI 4 and 11, St 44, SJ 6, GB 38 - 4 gates could be used too. Hope this helps Sharon Laura Wrote: I have a new kid that I am treating--a 5 year old whom I will call Alex. I hoped to get some feedback since I haven't treated a lot of kids. Main Complaint: about 1 1/2 months ago he starting sniffing followed by a throat clearing. He had not had an EPI before this and has not had allergies in the past. They tried allergies meds/decongestants and nothing changed. Then he developed a tic with blinking his eyes. Then he developed a bump--like a stye-- on his eyelid. The doctor concluded that all of it was a tic since he did not improve with allergies meds/decongestants. His mother describes him as having a general mood/anger/emotion regulation problem with a bad temper and prone to violence. Also said that he is very resistant to change. She said that at the time that the symptoms started there was a lot of change going on, which he does not handle. They went on a vacation to California and his father was home for a whole month, which was different. My experience with him was that his mother's description was accurate-- he was racing around the room--very creative, but also out of control. Cussing even (which made me laugh, further reinforcing the behavior). One thing that is interesting--I treat his uncle, who he looks like. His uncle describes himself as rigid and very resistant to change and says that he has such an intense personality that he has to smoke pot every day to cope. He recently quit smoking pot and his life has become chaotic--he's divorcing his wife and depressed all the time. So maybe there is a inborn predisposition. To me it was a little bit of a red flag when I heard that all these symptoms started when his father was home for a month. But since I know his uncle, there is reason to believe that this is just an inborn temperment. When you ask Alex about his symptoms he says that he does not feeling any pressure or congestion in his nose or throat and that he blinks his eyes like that because, " its just my body " . Which does indeed sound like a tic to me. But the bump on his eyelid makes me think that maybe a pathogen is involved. Any thoughts? The bump is not like a bump you would get from an injury--its like a stye--just a soft, clear swelling. Other stuf: always has had a high appetite, high thirst, and always feels even warmer than most kids. When he needs to have a BM he says, " my stomach hurts " . A month ago he got poison ivy or poison oak. Tends to wake at night with nightmares often. I knew I was going to be lucky to get one point in him, so I went for Liv 2. I left it in for about 7 minutes. Thoughts anyone? Thanks for any feedback! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 30, 2009 Report Share Posted August 30, 2009 The silence reinforces the acceptance of these things as ok. --- On Sat, 8/29/09, mystir <ykcul_ritsym wrote: mystir <ykcul_ritsym Re: Interesting child patient Chinese Medicine Saturday, August 29, 2009, 9:48 AM The suggestion I made about getting a social worker involved was only to have a little light shed into this scene. I have seen some of this too. This is a tight group, and the child is bearing the brunt of the negativity here. Everybody elese has their excuses for being just fine. Aspergers or adhd is suspect in a really classic hereditary way. The mother who is quick to anger at the kid in a situation like this, is still closed, I think not blaming herself, and, not seeing the boy as suffering, not sympathetic. Something is not right here Social workers can be a waste of time in that they can interfere with the relationship the parent and child need to develop. some are just be clock watchers, and some are clueless, some are unhealed victims, an some are sharp. When there is somebody trapped in a funky family dynamic, they can be a confidant and ally. Sure treat the boy. Be caring, massage is a great idea, you can also tell from reaction if there is privacy issues. Without dancing around the point here, I want to say child abuse; sexually, physically, verbally. and through neglect is still epidemic. We're still animals to each other, seriously. But what do you do if in your part of the world it's more common than not, where a mother because of her upbringing, turns a blind eye to it and enables uncle hairy face to be in the laundry with the child. I've seen this too, and I'm sure others have, where a mother lets an abuser near her kid, because 1) fear and fascination- she's caught-replaying the hazy crazy days, and 2) it validates her, it happens to other people. There is a lot a disconnect and misdirection in abuse. If this is something you have no stomach for, or can't face it, you miss the presentation. There are all kinds and levels, and triggers. I am not saying this is what is happening here. Maybe it is innocently something to address in the child. I wasn't abused myself, but I was surprised to find out how many were and are, in the craziest of ways it gets transmitted. Most, most. A little light may not hurt. --- On Fri, 8/28/09, Janis Egan <janis3934 wrote: Janis Egan <janis3934 Re: Interesting child patient " Chinese Medicine " <Chinese Medicine > Friday, August 28, 2009, 11:02 AM This case is more than interesting. I would like this mother and child to be treated with utter respect and sincerity. She needs validation that her situation is difficult and he needs to feel safe in your environment. Think about giving the childs treatment (needles) to his mother (as surrogate). In this situation mother and child could be seen as the same organism. Difficult child in single mother scenario can create a reality that social consciousness has great difficulty interpreting correctly. Every dead end and trip to a specialist can magnify the isolation. Make your sessions with this family as real as you can so they feel your sincere intention. My words come from life experience. I was that mother. My son is now 21. He is very special and being his mother is not easy. But I volunteered for this assignment and I can do it. Reassure this mother of how strong she really is. Let her know she can do it and kids like hers are real, do exist, and may defy a multitude of specialists. Conventional wisdom may be unconvinced that somehow this is her fault. It is not her fault. Janis Egan Sent from my iPhone On Aug 27, 2009, at 9:39 PM, " heylaurag " <heylaurag (AT) hotmail (DOT) com> wrote: I have a new kid that I am treating--a 5 year old whom I will call Alex. I hoped to get some feedback since I haven't treated a lot of kids. Main Complaint: about 1 1/2 months ago he starting sniffing followed by a throat clearing. He had not had an EPI before this and has not had allergies in the past. They tried allergies meds/decongestants and nothing changed. Then he developed a tic with blinking his eyes. Then he developed a bump--like a stye-- on his eyelid. The doctor concluded that all of it was a tic since he did not improve with allergies meds/decongestants. His mother describes him as having a general mood/anger/emotion regulation problem with a bad temper and prone to violence. Also said that he is very resistant to change. She said that at the time that the symptoms started there was a lot of change going on, which he does not handle. They went on a vacation to California and his father was home for a whole month, which was different. My experience with him was that his mother's description was accurate--he was racing around the room--very creative, but also out of control. Cussing even (which made me laugh, further reinforcing the behavior). One thing that is interesting- -I treat his uncle, who he looks like. His uncle describes himself as rigid and very resistant to change and says that he has such an intense personality that he has to smoke pot every day to cope. He recently quit smoking pot and his life has become chaotic--he' s divorcing his wife and depressed all the time. So maybe there is a inborn predisposition. To me it was a little bit of a red flag when I heard that all these symptoms started when his father was home for a month. But since I know his uncle, there is reason to believe that this is just an inborn temperment. When you ask Alex about his symptoms he says that he does not feeling any pressure or congestion in his nose or throat and that he blinks his eyes like that because, " its just my body " . Which does indeed sound like a tic to me. But the bump on his eyelid makes me think that maybe a pathogen is involved. Any thoughts? The bump is not like a bump you would get from an injury--its like a stye--just a soft, clear swelling. Other stuf: always has had a high appetite, high thirst, and always feels even warmer than most kids. When he needs to have a BM he says, " my stomach hurts " . A month ago he got poison ivy or poison oak. Tends to wake at night with nightmares often. I knew I was going to be lucky to get one point in him, so I went for Liv 2. I left it in for about 7 minutes. Thoughts anyone? Thanks for any feedback! ------------ --------- --------- ------ Subscribe to the free online journal for TCM at Times http://www.chinesem edicinetimes. com Help build the world's largest online encyclopedia for Chinese medicine and acupuncture, click, http://www.chinesem edicinetimes. com/wiki/ CMTpedia http://groups. / group/Traditiona l_Chinese_ Medicine/ join and adjust accordingly. Please consider the environment and only print this message if absolutely necessary. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 30, 2009 Report Share Posted August 30, 2009 Hi Sharon, I can tell you from personal experiece that this sounds like Tourettes. The throat clearing is a vocal tic and the blinking is a physical tic. The swearing can also be part of the Tourette's called copralalia. It is not as common as other tics but it is present in about 10% of Tourette's patients. This is exactly how my son's tourettes started at age 3 1/2. He was also extremetly hyperactive! I have him on video tape and every time I watch it I am amazed. So here is what worked for him; NAET and Tian Ma Gou Teng Yin. That is the only thing that worked for him. You can be correct about a pathogen as children with tourette's have a high incidence of strep infection. Look up PANDAS. But styes are an imbalance of heat and can have many source including stagnant liver qi. But from what you have mentioned...throat clearing (liver), eye blinking (liver) and hyperactivity (liver) I would say you were on the right track with liver points but I would use points more geared towards subduing liver yang and wind (Du 20, GB 20, Du 16, LV 8, LV 3, Sp 6, Ki 3) You didn't mention tongue or pulse so if it is extreme heat generating wind then Lv 2 is good as well. You might want to look into a constitutional homeopathic treatment as well. Hope this helps. Kimberly Marin AP, RD Davie, FL Chinese Medicine , sharon weizenbaum <sweiz wrote: > > Hi Laura, I am responding to the case you put up below. > > Though I appreciate the heads up to refer this family to social > workers and look at the family dynamics, the family has brought this > child to you which means they are looking for an energetic/Chinese > medical perspective. Even if the cause of the imbalance is the > family, the effect is in part energetic and somatic and that is where > you can be helpful. > > Yet, before being able to go for an herbal or acupuncture strategy, > I'd want to know the following: Does he sweat a lot? Is his skin > moist or dry? How is his sleep? What color is his tongue? What is > his body type? I'd like to see if he has tension under his subcostal > area with palpation (not subjective) and if there is any pressure pain > around St 27 on either side of his belly (blood stasis areas). > > If you could get back to us with answers to these questions, I bet we > could narrow down some options that would help a lot. Without knowing > the answers, any help I had to offer would be a sort of show in the > dark. I have several thoughts though. I don't know a ton about > treating kids but have worked successfully with kids with behavioral/ > ADD/emotional issues that are somatized. Sometimes it can be very > effective and helpful. > > If there is a bad home situation, we may not be able to help that too > much without referring but we could help it not effect his body so > intensely. This would really help him cope with the other stuff while > it is being worked out. > > Best > > Sharon > > > Laura Wrote: I have a new kid that I am treating--a 5 year old whom I > will call Alex. I hoped to get some feedback since I haven't treated a > lot of kids. > > Main Complaint: about 1 1/2 months ago he starting sniffing followed > by a throat clearing. He had not had an EPI before this and has not > had allergies in the past. They tried allergies meds/decongestants and > nothing changed. Then he developed a tic with blinking his eyes. Then > he developed a bump--like a stye-- on his eyelid. > > The doctor concluded that all of it was a tic since he did not improve > with allergies meds/decongestants. His mother describes him as having > a general mood/anger/emotion regulation problem with a bad temper and > prone to violence. Also said that he is very resistant to change. She > said that at the time that the symptoms started there was a lot of > change going on, which he does not handle. They went on a vacation to > California and his father was home for a whole month, which was > different. > > My experience with him was that his mother's description was accurate-- > he was racing around the room--very creative, but also out of control. > Cussing even (which made me laugh, further reinforcing the behavior). > > One thing that is interesting--I treat his uncle, who he looks like. > His uncle describes himself as rigid and very resistant to change and > says that he has such an intense personality that he has to smoke pot > every day to cope. He recently quit smoking pot and his life has > become chaotic--he's divorcing his wife and depressed all the time. > > So maybe there is a inborn predisposition. To me it was a little bit > of a red flag when I heard that all these symptoms started when his > father was home for a month. But since I know his uncle, there is > reason to believe that this is just an inborn temperment. > > When you ask Alex about his symptoms he says that he does not feeling > any pressure or congestion in his nose or throat and that he blinks > his eyes like that because, " its just my body " . Which does indeed > sound like a tic to me. But the bump on his eyelid makes me think that > maybe a pathogen is involved. Any thoughts? The bump is not like a > bump you would get from an injury--its like a stye--just a soft, clear > swelling. > > Other stuf: always has had a high appetite, high thirst, and always > feels even warmer than most kids. When he needs to have a BM he says, > " my stomach hurts " . A month ago he got poison ivy or poison oak. Tends > to wake at night with nightmares often. > > I knew I was going to be lucky to get one point in him, so I went for > Liv 2. I left it in for about 7 minutes. > > Thoughts anyone? Thanks for any feedback! > > > > Sharon Weizenbaum > 86 Henry Street > Amherst, MA 01002 > www.whitepinehealingarts.com > sweiz Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 31, 2009 Report Share Posted August 31, 2009 objectively, yes in addition to reinforcing the kidney source, help the live r. --- On Sun, 8/30/09, kimmymarin <kimmymarin wrote: kimmymarin <kimmymarin Re:Interesting child patient Chinese Medicine Sunday, August 30, 2009, 4:44 PM Hi Sharon, I can tell you from personal experiece that this sounds like Tourettes. The throat clearing is a vocal tic and the blinking is a physical tic. The swearing can also be part of the Tourette's called copralalia. It is not as common as other tics but it is present in about 10% of Tourette's patients. This is exactly how my son's tourettes started at age 3 1/2. He was also extremetly hyperactive! I have him on video tape and every time I watch it I am amazed. So here is what worked for him; NAET and Tian Ma Gou Teng Yin. That is the only thing that worked for him. You can be correct about a pathogen as children with tourette's have a high incidence of strep infection. Look up PANDAS. But styes are an imbalance of heat and can have many source including stagnant liver qi. But from what you have mentioned... throat clearing (liver), eye blinking (liver) and hyperactivity (liver) I would say you were on the right track with liver points but I would use points more geared towards subduing liver yang and wind (Du 20, GB 20, Du 16, LV 8, LV 3, Sp 6, Ki 3) You didn't mention tongue or pulse so if it is extreme heat generating wind then Lv 2 is good as well. You might want to look into a constitutional homeopathic treatment as well. Hope this helps. Kimberly Marin AP, RD Davie, FL Traditional_ Chinese_Medicine , sharon weizenbaum <sweiz wrote: > > Hi Laura, I am responding to the case you put up below. > > Though I appreciate the heads up to refer this family to social > workers and look at the family dynamics, the family has brought this > child to you which means they are looking for an energetic/Chinese > medical perspective. Even if the cause of the imbalance is the > family, the effect is in part energetic and somatic and that is where > you can be helpful. > > Yet, before being able to go for an herbal or acupuncture strategy, > I'd want to know the following: Does he sweat a lot? Is his skin > moist or dry? How is his sleep? What color is his tongue? What is > his body type? I'd like to see if he has tension under his subcostal > area with palpation (not subjective) and if there is any pressure pain > around St 27 on either side of his belly (blood stasis areas). > > If you could get back to us with answers to these questions, I bet we > could narrow down some options that would help a lot. Without knowing > the answers, any help I had to offer would be a sort of show in the > dark. I have several thoughts though. I don't know a ton about > treating kids but have worked successfully with kids with behavioral/ > ADD/emotional issues that are somatized. Sometimes it can be very > effective and helpful. > > If there is a bad home situation, we may not be able to help that too > much without referring but we could help it not effect his body so > intensely. This would really help him cope with the other stuff while > it is being worked out. > > Best > > Sharon > > > Laura Wrote: I have a new kid that I am treating--a 5 year old whom I > will call Alex. I hoped to get some feedback since I haven't treated a > lot of kids. > > Main Complaint: about 1 1/2 months ago he starting sniffing followed > by a throat clearing. He had not had an EPI before this and has not > had allergies in the past. They tried allergies meds/decongestants and > nothing changed. Then he developed a tic with blinking his eyes. Then > he developed a bump--like a stye-- on his eyelid. > > The doctor concluded that all of it was a tic since he did not improve > with allergies meds/decongestants. His mother describes him as having > a general mood/anger/emotion regulation problem with a bad temper and > prone to violence. Also said that he is very resistant to change. She > said that at the time that the symptoms started there was a lot of > change going on, which he does not handle. They went on a vacation to > California and his father was home for a whole month, which was > different. > > My experience with him was that his mother's description was accurate-- > he was racing around the room--very creative, but also out of control. > Cussing even (which made me laugh, further reinforcing the behavior). > > One thing that is interesting- -I treat his uncle, who he looks like. > His uncle describes himself as rigid and very resistant to change and > says that he has such an intense personality that he has to smoke pot > every day to cope. He recently quit smoking pot and his life has > become chaotic--he' s divorcing his wife and depressed all the time. > > So maybe there is a inborn predisposition. To me it was a little bit > of a red flag when I heard that all these symptoms started when his > father was home for a month. But since I know his uncle, there is > reason to believe that this is just an inborn temperment. > > When you ask Alex about his symptoms he says that he does not feeling > any pressure or congestion in his nose or throat and that he blinks > his eyes like that because, " its just my body " . Which does indeed > sound like a tic to me. But the bump on his eyelid makes me think that > maybe a pathogen is involved. Any thoughts? The bump is not like a > bump you would get from an injury--its like a stye--just a soft, clear > swelling. > > Other stuf: always has had a high appetite, high thirst, and always > feels even warmer than most kids. When he needs to have a BM he says, > " my stomach hurts " . A month ago he got poison ivy or poison oak. Tends > to wake at night with nightmares often. > > I knew I was going to be lucky to get one point in him, so I went for > Liv 2. I left it in for about 7 minutes. > > Thoughts anyone? Thanks for any feedback! > > > > Sharon Weizenbaum > 86 Henry Street > Amherst, MA 01002 > www.whitepinehealin garts.com > sweiz > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 31, 2009 Report Share Posted August 31, 2009 Thanks Mystir for your thoughtful comments. This case has enought power to throw me back in my personal paradigm, which began at the time my son was born. It was an incredible experience of dealing with reality under a variety of stressful circumstances, which at the time were cast in stone. My son did not have Tourette's, as this case strongly points to. What I learn from this case, is to watch out for personalizing the information. You brought me back to the present and I realize this patient is not my son, and this woman is not me.. Best regards, Janis --- On Sun, 8/30/09, mystir <ykcul_ritsym wrote: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 31, 2009 Report Share Posted August 31, 2009 Did both of these children receive vaccinations? Sincerely, Patricia Jordan DVM,CVA,CTCVM & Herbology Chinese Medicine kimmymarin Sun, 30 Aug 2009 20:44:45 +0000 Re:Interesting child patient Hi Sharon, I can tell you from personal experiece that this sounds like Tourettes. The throat clearing is a vocal tic and the blinking is a physical tic. The swearing can also be part of the Tourette's called copralalia. It is not as common as other tics but it is present in about 10% of Tourette's patients. This is exactly how my son's tourettes started at age 3 1/2. He was also extremetly hyperactive! I have him on video tape and every time I watch it I am amazed. So here is what worked for him; NAET and Tian Ma Gou Teng Yin. That is the only thing that worked for him. You can be correct about a pathogen as children with tourette's have a high incidence of strep infection. Look up PANDAS. But styes are an imbalance of heat and can have many source including stagnant liver qi. But from what you have mentioned...throat clearing (liver), eye blinking (liver) and hyperactivity (liver) I would say you were on the right track with liver points but I would use points more geared towards subduing liver yang and wind (Du 20, GB 20, Du 16, LV 8, LV 3, Sp 6, Ki 3) You didn't mention tongue or pulse so if it is extreme heat generating wind then Lv 2 is good as well. You might want to look into a constitutional homeopathic treatment as well. Hope this helps. Kimberly Marin AP, RD Davie, FL Chinese Medicine , sharon weizenbaum <sweiz wrote: > > Hi Laura, I am responding to the case you put up below. > > Though I appreciate the heads up to refer this family to social > workers and look at the family dynamics, the family has brought this > child to you which means they are looking for an energetic/Chinese > medical perspective. Even if the cause of the imbalance is the > family, the effect is in part energetic and somatic and that is where > you can be helpful. > > Yet, before being able to go for an herbal or acupuncture strategy, > I'd want to know the following: Does he sweat a lot? Is his skin > moist or dry? How is his sleep? What color is his tongue? What is > his body type? I'd like to see if he has tension under his subcostal > area with palpation (not subjective) and if there is any pressure pain > around St 27 on either side of his belly (blood stasis areas). > > If you could get back to us with answers to these questions, I bet we > could narrow down some options that would help a lot. Without knowing > the answers, any help I had to offer would be a sort of show in the > dark. I have several thoughts though. I don't know a ton about > treating kids but have worked successfully with kids with behavioral/ > ADD/emotional issues that are somatized. Sometimes it can be very > effective and helpful. > > If there is a bad home situation, we may not be able to help that too > much without referring but we could help it not effect his body so > intensely. This would really help him cope with the other stuff while > it is being worked out. > > Best > > Sharon > > > Laura Wrote: I have a new kid that I am treating--a 5 year old whom I > will call Alex. I hoped to get some feedback since I haven't treated a > lot of kids. > > Main Complaint: about 1 1/2 months ago he starting sniffing followed > by a throat clearing. He had not had an EPI before this and has not > had allergies in the past. They tried allergies meds/decongestants and > nothing changed. Then he developed a tic with blinking his eyes. Then > he developed a bump--like a stye-- on his eyelid. > > The doctor concluded that all of it was a tic since he did not improve > with allergies meds/decongestants. His mother describes him as having > a general mood/anger/emotion regulation problem with a bad temper and > prone to violence. Also said that he is very resistant to change. She > said that at the time that the symptoms started there was a lot of > change going on, which he does not handle. They went on a vacation to > California and his father was home for a whole month, which was > different. > > My experience with him was that his mother's description was accurate-- > he was racing around the room--very creative, but also out of control. > Cussing even (which made me laugh, further reinforcing the behavior). > > One thing that is interesting--I treat his uncle, who he looks like. > His uncle describes himself as rigid and very resistant to change and > says that he has such an intense personality that he has to smoke pot > every day to cope. He recently quit smoking pot and his life has > become chaotic--he's divorcing his wife and depressed all the time. > > So maybe there is a inborn predisposition. To me it was a little bit > of a red flag when I heard that all these symptoms started when his > father was home for a month. But since I know his uncle, there is > reason to believe that this is just an inborn temperment. > > When you ask Alex about his symptoms he says that he does not feeling > any pressure or congestion in his nose or throat and that he blinks > his eyes like that because, " its just my body " . Which does indeed > sound like a tic to me. But the bump on his eyelid makes me think that > maybe a pathogen is involved. Any thoughts? The bump is not like a > bump you would get from an injury--its like a stye--just a soft, clear > swelling. > > Other stuf: always has had a high appetite, high thirst, and always > feels even warmer than most kids. When he needs to have a BM he says, > " my stomach hurts " . A month ago he got poison ivy or poison oak. Tends > to wake at night with nightmares often. > > I knew I was going to be lucky to get one point in him, so I went for > Liv 2. I left it in for about 7 minutes. > > Thoughts anyone? Thanks for any feedback! > > > > Sharon Weizenbaum > 86 Henry Street > Amherst, MA 01002 > www.whitepinehealingarts.com > sweiz Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 2, 2009 Report Share Posted September 2, 2009 He's trying to hold his energy in, to stagnate his qi, so that he doesn't have to feel it flowing. His body is in chronic contraction. From a TCM standpoint, he's probably accumulating phlegm, which might be causing the heat and the wind and whatnot. Check out what Wilhelm Reich has to say about situations like these. Just catching up on emails. - " Angela Pfaffenberger, PH.D. " <angelapfa <Chinese Medicine > Friday, August 28, 2009 9:31 AM Re: Interesting child patient >I would definitely refer her to an experienced child psychologist, but I >would also stick to the TCM treatment, sounds like wind heat to me. I would >capsule the herbs and tell the mother to reward the kid for taking them. >Homeopathy can also work wonders in children; I would NOT recommend a >psychiatrist because medication often leads to some life-long dependency of >drugs that cause side-effects. However, once he enters school the mother >will come under severe pressure to medicate him. Some of these symptoms are >consistent with Aspergers; especially the tic and the fact that a relative >has similar symptoms. > > Regards, > Angela Pfaffenberger, Ph.D. > > angelapfa > > www.InnerhealthSalem.com > > Phone: 503 364 3022 > - > Janis Egan > Chinese Medicine > Friday, August 28, 2009 8:02 AM > Re: Interesting child patient > > > This case is more than interesting. I would like this mother and child > to be treated with utter respect and sincerity. She needs validation that > her situation is difficult and he needs to feel safe in your environment. > Think about giving the childs treatment (needles) to his mother (as > surrogate). In this situation mother and child could be seen as the same > organism. Difficult child in single mother scenario can create a reality > that social consciousness has great difficulty interpreting correctly. > Every dead end and trip to a specialist can magnify the isolation. Make > your sessions with this family as real as you can so they feel your > sincere intention. > > My words come from life experience. I was that mother. My son is now 21. > He is very special and being his mother is not easy. But I volunteered for > this assignment and I can do it. > > Reassure this mother of how strong she really is. Let her know she can do > it and kids like hers are real, do exist, and may defy a multitude of > specialists. Conventional wisdom may be unconvinced that somehow this is > her fault. It is not her fault. > > Janis Egan > > Sent from my iPhone > > On Aug 27, 2009, at 9:39 PM, " heylaurag " <heylaurag wrote: > > I have a new kid that I am treating--a 5 year old whom I will call Alex. > I hoped to get some feedback since I haven't treated a lot of kids. > > Main Complaint: about 1 1/2 months ago he starting sniffing followed by a > throat clearing. He had not had an EPI before this and has not had > allergies in the past. They tried allergies meds/decongestants and nothing > changed. Then he developed a tic with blinking his eyes. Then he developed > a bump--like a stye-- on his eyelid. > > The doctor concluded that all of it was a tic since he did not improve > with allergies meds/decongestants. His mother describes him as having a > general mood/anger/emotion regulation problem with a bad temper and prone > to violence. Also said that he is very resistant to change. She said that > at the time that the symptoms started there was a lot of change going on, > which he does not handle. They went on a vacation to California and his > father was home for a whole month, which was different. > > My experience with him was that his mother's description was accurate--he > was racing around the room--very creative, but also out of control. > Cussing even (which made me laugh, further reinforcing the behavior). > > One thing that is interesting--I treat his uncle, who he looks like. His > uncle describes himself as rigid and very resistant to change and says > that he has such an intense personality that he has to smoke pot every day > to cope. He recently quit smoking pot and his life has become > chaotic--he's divorcing his wife and depressed all the time. > > So maybe there is a inborn predisposition. To me it was a little bit of a > red flag when I heard that all these symptoms started when his father was > home for a month. But since I know his uncle, there is reason to believe > that this is just an inborn temperment. > > When you ask Alex about his symptoms he says that he does not feeling any > pressure or congestion in his nose or throat and that he blinks his eyes > like that because, " its just my body " . Which does indeed sound like a tic > to me. But the bump on his eyelid makes me think that maybe a pathogen is > involved. Any thoughts? The bump is not like a bump you would get from an > injury--its like a stye--just a soft, clear swelling. > > Other stuf: always has had a high appetite, high thirst, and always feels > even warmer than most kids. When he needs to have a BM he says, " my > stomach hurts " . A month ago he got poison ivy or poison oak. Tends to wake > at night with nightmares often. > > I knew I was going to be lucky to get one point in him, so I went for Liv > 2. I left it in for about 7 minutes. > > Thoughts anyone? Thanks for any feedback! > > --- > > Subscribe to the free online journal for TCM at Times > http://www.chinesemedicinetimes.com > > Help build the world's largest online encyclopedia for Chinese medicine > and acupuncture, click, http://www.chinesemedicinetimes.com/wiki/CMTpedia > > > and adjust > accordingly. > > Messages are the property of the author. Any duplication outside the > group requires prior permission from the author. > > Please consider the environment and only print this message if absolutely > necessary. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 2, 2009 Report Share Posted September 2, 2009 Asberger's and Tourette's are western diagnoses. I think we can look at the pattern diagnosis from the TCM perspective with these ideas in mind, but there's no need to pigeon hole our thinking. LOL. I'm just catching up on my email. - " Janis Egan " <janis3934 <Chinese Medicine > Monday, August 31, 2009 7:24 AM Re: Interesting child patient Thanks Mystir for your thoughtful comments. This case has enought power to throw me back in my personal paradigm, which began at the time my son was born. It was an incredible experience of dealing with reality under a variety of stressful circumstances, which at the time were cast in stone. My son did not have Tourette's, as this case strongly points to. What I learn from this case, is to watch out for personalizing the information. You brought me back to the present and I realize this patient is not my son, and this woman is not me.. Best regards, Janis --- On Sun, 8/30/09, mystir <ykcul_ritsym wrote: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 9, 2010 Report Share Posted January 9, 2010 I know this is long after the fact but what about Xiao Chai Hu Tang? I is really good for lingering latent infections and emotional problems. --- On Thu, 8/27/09, heylaurag <heylaurag wrote: heylaurag <heylaurag Interesting child patient Chinese Medicine Thursday, August 27, 2009, 7:39 PM I have a new kid that I am treating--a 5 year old whom I will call Alex. I hoped to get some feedback since I haven't treated a lot of kids. Main Complaint: about 1 1/2 months ago he starting sniffing followed by a throat clearing. He had not had an EPI before this and has not had allergies in the past. They tried allergies meds/decongestants and nothing changed. Then he developed a tic with blinking his eyes. Then he developed a bump--like a stye-- on his eyelid. The doctor concluded that all of it was a tic since he did not improve with allergies meds/decongestants. His mother describes him as having a general mood/anger/emotion regulation problem with a bad temper and prone to violence. Also said that he is very resistant to change. She said that at the time that the symptoms started there was a lot of change going on, which he does not handle. They went on a vacation to California and his father was home for a whole month, which was different. My experience with him was that his mother's description was accurate--he was racing around the room--very creative, but also out of control. Cussing even (which made me laugh, further reinforcing the behavior). One thing that is interesting- -I treat his uncle, who he looks like. His uncle describes himself as rigid and very resistant to change and says that he has such an intense personality that he has to smoke pot every day to cope. He recently quit smoking pot and his life has become chaotic--he' s divorcing his wife and depressed all the time. So maybe there is a inborn predisposition. To me it was a little bit of a red flag when I heard that all these symptoms started when his father was home for a month. But since I know his uncle, there is reason to believe that this is just an inborn temperment. When you ask Alex about his symptoms he says that he does not feeling any pressure or congestion in his nose or throat and that he blinks his eyes like that because, " its just my body " . Which does indeed sound like a tic to me. But the bump on his eyelid makes me think that maybe a pathogen is involved. Any thoughts? The bump is not like a bump you would get from an injury--its like a stye--just a soft, clear swelling. Other stuf: always has had a high appetite, high thirst, and always feels even warmer than most kids. When he needs to have a BM he says, " my stomach hurts " . A month ago he got poison ivy or poison oak. Tends to wake at night with nightmares often. I knew I was going to be lucky to get one point in him, so I went for Liv 2. I left it in for about 7 minutes. Thoughts anyone? Thanks for any feedback! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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