Guest guest Posted August 21, 2009 Report Share Posted August 21, 2009 Hi Philip, thank you for your post. I enjoyed it. I agree with you on many points, and I hope that reputation / therapeutic effect will be the deciding factors. That said, we have a very large problem which I face regularly. I will describe a recent case of mine, and I wish for you to understand that all the following points I make are NOT rebuttals of your post, but merely a story of my experiences and interpretations of my experience: Male patient of 50yrs comes in with a dx of mitral valve prolapse, which, to me, looks like heart yin deficiency and some liver qi constraint presenting as palpitations, trouble sleeping and feelings of internal heat. He is booked for open heart surgery in three months and has just finished his initial western medical work-up. We start treatment for the presenting signs and symptoms. Within 2 months, the patient is " cured " . No palpitations, sleep is almost perfect, and internal temperature is normal - for the first time in 5 years. Treatment continues to just prior to pre-operative work-up. Patient returns from pre-op work-up and says that his cardiac surgeon said that all his tests were normal - i.e. no mitral valve prolapse exists. Patient reports that his surgeon did not even blink an eye and reminded him what time to show up to the hospital to start the procedures for open heart surgery. I asked, " but aren't these the same tests that were initially used to justify heart surgery? " (Which they were) I ask the patient if he is going to go through with the heart surgery. The patient replies that their cardiac surgeon had said yes, so that in turn means that yes, he will go through with it. Moral of the story: when a doctor says jump, people jump, no matter what you have done for them, if the situation is considered dangerous and " clearly lies within " the realm of western medicine. I can't see how we can win that battle. If the patient doesn't go through with surgery, I enter a legal area that is immensely dangerous for me, despite its fantastical dimensions (meaning its existence entirely within a realm of fantasy). And yet, it is a matter of the deepest ethics that the patient not undergo procedures of extreme danger and cost unnecessarily. Not winning this battle is important because it represents the whittling down of our scope, our ability to prove effect and our authority over the treatment of illness. In my eyes, that we are headed to a place where we will not be allowed to treat without an MD referral (read " supervision " ) and where the supervising MD will decide the scope of treatment. As another example will show, in the big picture, it doesn't really matter that a patient with diagnosed and untreatable RLS / Causalgia of a 15 year duration was cured in my clinic in a period of 2 weeks with the administration of (poisonous and adulterated (at least that's what my patients worry about)) LanZhou FoCi factory ZhiBaiDiHuang followed by LiuWeiDiHuang from the same manufactory because this patient was old, not valued in our society, and suffered from a condition of chronic pain that is fringe and uninteresting to the western medical profession. We can have the crumbs as far as they are concerned. In the end, I really don't feel that reputation and therapeutic effect is enough. Ever heard the chinese saying " casting pearls before swine " ? How long, exactly, has Chinese medicine been safely and effectively functioning as primary care? I believe it is not enough to just do it. The problem is that, when push comes to shove, the real doctors will use their overwhelming leverage to force their position. It is my belief that we must work to become excellent healers / doctors, but that it is NOT enough to do that. We must record and document our successes, and then take that information and use it to create movement in society. I apologise for the scattered nature of this post, I feel it is a complicated and constantly changing subject, and thanks again to Philip for sharing his experiences. Hugo ________________________________ Hugo Ramiro http://middlemedicine.wordpress.com http://www.middlemedicine.org ________________________________ Philip Nino Tan-Gatue <philiptangatue Chinese Medicine Friday, 21 August, 2009 10:22:34 Re: acupuncture for MD course Greetings all, I am a longtime lurker but I find myself needing to put in my two cents on this topic precisely because I myself am an MD who originally wanted to use acupuncture only as an " adjunct " in my practice. However, I have learned that TCM is a wonderful medicine system in itself. I took up further studies and now consider myself somewhere in the middle between MDs with minimal training and the REAL TCM practitioners like you guys. Right now, my whole practice is TCM. Do not feel threatened by acupuncturist- wanna bes. So long as you put out a " good product " someone will buy it. In my experience here in the Philippines half-baked acupuncturists eventually see their practices die and they give it up altogether, while real acupuncturists survive by word of mouth and patient referrals. A bit of context though - in the Philippines, it is only recently that non-MDs are allowed to practice acupuncture. There is still no real board certification for it or herbal medicine or TCM in general. It is unfortunate that some real quacks (MDs!!!) out there think of acupuncture as just another marketing gimmick to go with their other so-called " wholistic " medicines (which I will decline to enumerate... ) Cases in point: Dr. E. C. MD is actually one of my inspirations (and how fortunate for me that I work with him now in his clinic). He graduated MD in 1984 and went to China in 1988 and 1989. Since then, he has a thriving practice as a full time acupuncturist. Why is he successful? Firstly, his grasp of point dynamics and other aspects of TCM is superb. Not just the cookbook nonsense. Second, he is a master of diagnostics - carefully photographing and analyzing tongue pictures for further study. That, and he really cares for patients and looks at us (me included) as whole persons. I could name more reasons, but these are the most important. Now, to the other side of the fence: I was once giving a lecture on complementary medicine modalities for a geriatric medicine society and one attendee asked me a question. He begins by saying he used to practice acupuncture ten years ago but his practice died out. His question? " What points would you use for migraine. " I immediately thought, " no wonder your practice died out. " Anyway I answered, " It depends on the patient. " The point being that we have to trust people. People know a good thing when they see it - especially since our intended clientelle are those actively seeking better health solutions than what is conventionally available - hence they will scrutinize carefully. I'm sure they'll recognize who represents REAL chinese medicine. About the comment that TCM will be discredited - actually it is the other way around. I teach in medical school and I specialize in gathering evidence (anecdotal and otherwise) that TCM theory is valid. Just recently I photographed a patient with Stomach Fire because the Foot Yangming meridian was almost glowing red! It was as if someone marked it with a pentel marker! Explain THAT through biomedicine! On Fri, Aug 21, 2009 at 10:00 PM, Hugo Ramiro <subincor > wrote: > > > Hi Yehuda and all: > > --Yehuda- > > Speaking for myself, I don't feel in the least bit threatened by them. I'm > sorry that you do. > --- > > I myself feel threatened by low-level acupuncturists like MDs etc. I find > myself wondering, as Tatiana did, how long our profession will last. Our > profession is small, and I have found that as many MDs as are willing to say > that they are limited in their acupuncture tool use, there are more who will > say that they are the only ones who do it right. It seems to me that the > next assault in the co-optation of our profession will occur as our > underlying theory is discredited (with or without reason), finally > eliminating any need for an actual " Doctor " from the > picture, since acupuncture' s effects are neurologically based. > Of course, I hope I am totally wrong and buying into a merely paranoid > mentality. > Thoughts? > > Hugo > > ____________ _________ _________ __ > Hugo Ramiro > http://middlemedici ne.wordpress. com > http://www.chinesem edicaltherapies. org > > ____________ _________ _________ __ > <%40. com>> > <Traditional_ Chinese_Medicine %40. com> > Friday, 21 August, 2009 1:34:21 > Re: acupuncture for MD course > > > Tatiana, > It is important to remember that acupuncture is just a tool, like a hammer, > a drill or for that matter, a computer. The success is based upon the skill > of the craftsman. Of course, it's always nice to use quick cook book > points to awe and amaze patients with how magical acupuncture is, but that > should not be the basis of our practice. Rather, the key must be to > determine the pathogenesis of the imbalance and/or illness in order to guide > the patient back to balance and robust health. Any bright, knowledgeable > and mature MD (or chiropractor, for that matter) who integrates acupuncture > into their practice will tell you that they recognize their limitations. > Speaking for myself, I don't feel in the least bit threatened by them. I'm > sorry that you do. I would add, though, that because we are blessed we so > many wonderful masters, scholars and teachers who offer CEU courses, one > should make it their business to learn and keep learning. The > skill and confidence that comes with it will speak for itself, to potential > patients, as well as other medical colleagues! > 'much good fortune! > > www.traditional > jewishmedicine. netwww.tradition aljewishmedicine .blogspot. com > > --- On Thu, 8/20/09, tgaid1 <tvgaid (AT) gmail (DOT) com> wrote: > > tgaid1 <tvgaid (AT) gmail (DOT) com> > acupuncture for MD course > > Thursday, August 20, 2009, 9:07 PM > > > > Sorry for raising the old topic up, but i think we need to know how our > medicine is presented to the Western doctors and how far they can go... > > Interesting what will be your opinion on this program for Mds: > > http://www.acupunct urecourse. org/a_comments. php > > It looks very nice, although it does not give deep understanding of TCM. > Interesting if participants keep applying the new skills in their practice > and do they really get good results... I am not talking about few gifted > practitioners or using techniques like acupuncture point injections.. . > > I see more and more young MD and DO with acupuncture training... > > Interesting, how long our profession will last. > > Tatiana > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 21, 2009 Report Share Posted August 21, 2009 Hi Mike, we've had this conversation before, and I continue to look forward to your completed compilation / paper on the topic at hand. Please be sure to let us know when it is done, or as it develops. Taking a cue from you, I have been pushing the charged water cluster theory to patients and western medical students coming through my clinic as a potential competitor to neurologically based acupuncture. As an aside for the rest of our readership, I also constantly remind people that as much information as there is on the physiological reactions within the body to acupuncture stimulation, there is still no predictive component to this information. I.e. the physiological information, as large as it is currently, does not allow us to choose a particular point for a particular sign or symptom. From the point of view of neurophysiological acupuncture research, it makes as much sense to place a needle randomly as it does to place one at GB34/YangLingChuan to brighten the eyes. Many people do not clearly understand that information is nearly useless without a predictive aspect to it that allows us to formulate guidelines. In essence, we have a lot of leverage to use " against " those who would co-opt our profession (i.e. we actually *have* a guideline for acupuncture), but if no one knows this, they *will* choose the therapist with the culturally accepted degree, even if they do like driving blind (like the cardiac surgeon who performs heart surgeries unsupported by diagnostic findings). I was watching " house " (se5 ep4) and SARS, Gan Cao, and murderous Chinese parents (and ACUPUNCTURE NEEDLES) were mentioned. I recommend viewing it and then asking yourself if it is enough to simply treat effectively. We don't have to sell to the people on our side, it is likely more of an issue of creating boundaries to protect our profession from those who would gladly see us fall. I just can't get the mentality that creates an episode like the above. Hugo ________________________________ Hugo Ramiro http://middlemedicine.wordpress.com http://www.chinesemedicaltherapies.org ________________________________ mike Bowser <naturaldoc1 Chinese Traditional Medicine Friday, 21 August, 2009 12:59:50 RE: acupuncture for MD course Hugo, From the scientific world, you might want to look at the peer-reviewed works of Dr Soh, as well as his predecessor Dr Kim Bonghan, on a system of microtubules that appear to follow the channel descriptions and attach to organs. I mention this system as a way to demonstrate to the medical types that there might be other ideas than nerve functioning to explain TCM. This would be an objective system that stands in opposition to their nerve functioning- only model and may actually turn out to be what the ancients had known. Just an FYI. I would also start to mention this to people, so that they can understand a myth (nerve function) when they hear about it. Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc subincor Fri, 21 Aug 2009 14:00:30 +0000 Re: acupuncture for MD course Hi Yehuda and all: --Yehuda- Speaking for myself, I don't feel in the least bit threatened by them. I'm sorry that you do. --- I myself feel threatened by low-level acupuncturists like MDs etc. I find myself wondering, as Tatiana did, how long our profession will last. Our profession is small, and I have found that as many MDs as are willing to say that they are limited in their acupuncture tool use, there are more who will say that they are the only ones who do it right. It seems to me that the next assault in the co-optation of our profession will occur as our underlying theory is discredited (with or without reason), finally eliminating any need for an actual " Chinese Medicine Doctor " from the picture, since acupuncture' s effects are neurologically based. Of course, I hope I am totally wrong and buying into a merely paranoid mentality. Thoughts? Hugo ____________ _________ _________ __ Hugo Ramiro http://middlemedici ne.wordpress. com http://www.chinesem edicaltherapies. org ____________ _________ _________ __ > Friday, 21 August, 2009 1:34:21 Re: acupuncture for MD course Tatiana, It is important to remember that acupuncture is just a tool, like a hammer, a drill or for that matter, a computer. The success is based upon the skill of the craftsman. Of course, it's always nice to use quick cook book points to awe and amaze patients with how magical acupuncture is, but that should not be the basis of our practice. Rather, the key must be to determine the pathogenesis of the imbalance and/or illness in order to guide the patient back to balance and robust health. Any bright, knowledgeable and mature MD (or chiropractor, for that matter) who integrates acupuncture into their practice will tell you that they recognize their limitations. Speaking for myself, I don't feel in the least bit threatened by them. I'm sorry that you do. I would add, though, that because we are blessed we so many wonderful masters, scholars and teachers who offer CEU courses, one should make it their business to learn and keep learning. The skill and confidence that comes with it will speak for itself, to potential patients, as well as other medical colleagues! 'much good fortune! www.traditional jewishmedicine. netwww.tradition aljewishmedicine .blogspot. com --- On Thu, 8/20/09, tgaid1 <tvgaid (AT) gmail (DOT) com> wrote: tgaid1 <tvgaid (AT) gmail (DOT) com> acupuncture for MD course Thursday, August 20, 2009, 9:07 PM Sorry for raising the old topic up, but i think we need to know how our medicine is presented to the Western doctors and how far they can go... Interesting what will be your opinion on this program for Mds: http://www.acupunct urecourse. org/a_comments. php It looks very nice, although it does not give deep understanding of TCM. Interesting if participants keep applying the new skills in their practice and do they really get good results... I am not talking about few gifted practitioners or using techniques like acupuncture point injections.. . I see more and more young MD and DO with acupuncture training... Interesting, how long our profession will last. Tatiana Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 21, 2009 Report Share Posted August 21, 2009 Hi Mike, I once asked an MD I know well what his position was regarding his profession's position. He disavowed a connection - meaning that he did not feel responsible for anything his profession might do or represent. Like you say, there is no neutrality, but who is going to move against an entrenched, powerful, wealthy political force? Hugo ________________________________ Hugo Ramiro http://middlemedicine.wordpress.com http://www.chinesemedicaltherapies.org ________________________________ mike Bowser <naturaldoc1 Chinese Traditional Medicine Friday, 21 August, 2009 13:07:48 RE: acupuncture for MD course John, Just curious to at what point do we consider the individual as part of this professional problem? At some point, we must acknowledge that they are in support of this lack of education position or they should be speaking out against it. There is no neutrality anymore. Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc johnkokko (AT) gmail (DOT) com Fri, 21 Aug 2009 09:13:04 -0700 Re: acupuncture for MD course Thanks Philip for your posting. There have been several MDs who have given so much to the TCM profession.. . for instance... Leon Hammer and Nguyen Van Nghi We shouldn't be biased, but I think that many acupuncturists are on the defense, because of what has been thrown at our profession from the MD profession. I would hope that MDs would be truly educated about acupuncture and Chinese formulaism as you are. Western medicine and Chinese medicine are both allopathic and both rooted in science. As you said, if you show results, the patients will come. If you don't the patients won't. It's a natural law and as simple as that. Even if a patient will come to an MD first, because they " trust " them, they may not stick to the practitioner. The big issue is that MDs can get insurance reimbursal, whereas acupuncturists are limited. There are 800,000 MDs in the United States compared to 20,000 licensed acupuncturists. That's a 40:1 ratio and a huge political and financial leverage. K On Fri, Aug 21, 2009 at 7:22 AM, Philip Nino Tan-Gatue < philiptangatue@ gmail.com> wrote: > > > Greetings all, > > I am a longtime lurker but I find myself needing to put in my two cents on > this topic precisely because I myself am an MD who originally wanted to use > acupuncture only as an " adjunct " in my practice. However, I have learned > that TCM is a wonderful medicine system in itself. I took up further > studies and now consider myself somewhere in the middle between MDs with > minimal training and the REAL TCM practitioners like you guys. Right now, > my whole practice is TCM. > > Do not feel threatened by acupuncturist- wanna bes. So long as you put out a > " good product " someone will buy it. In my experience here in the > Philippines half-baked acupuncturists eventually see their practices die > and > they give it up altogether, while real acupuncturists survive by word of > mouth and patient referrals. A bit of context though - in the Philippines, > it is only recently that non-MDs are allowed to practice acupuncture. There > is still no real board certification for it or herbal medicine or TCM in > general. It is unfortunate that some real quacks (MDs!!!) out there think > of acupuncture as just another marketing gimmick to go with their other > so-called " wholistic " medicines (which I will decline to enumerate... ) > > Cases in point: > > Dr. E. C. MD is actually one of my inspirations (and how fortunate for me > that I work with him now in his clinic). He graduated MD in 1984 and went > to China in 1988 and 1989. Since then, he has a thriving practice as a full > time acupuncturist. Why is he successful? Firstly, his grasp of point > dynamics and other aspects of TCM is superb. Not just the cookbook > nonsense. Second, he is a master of diagnostics - carefully photographing > and analyzing tongue pictures for further study. That, and he really cares > for patients and looks at us (me included) as whole persons. I could name > more reasons, but these are the most important. > > Now, to the other side of the fence: I was once giving a lecture on > complementary medicine modalities for a geriatric medicine society and one > attendee asked me a question. He begins by saying he used to practice > acupuncture ten years ago but his practice died out. His question? " What > points would you use for migraine. " I immediately thought, " no wonder your > practice died out. " Anyway I answered, " It depends on the patient. " > > The point being that we have to trust people. People know a good thing when > they see it - especially since our intended clientelle are those actively > seeking better health solutions than what is conventionally available - > hence they will scrutinize carefully. I'm sure they'll recognize who > represents REAL chinese medicine. > > About the comment that TCM will be discredited - actually it is the other > way around. I teach in medical school and I specialize in gathering > evidence (anecdotal and otherwise) that TCM theory is valid. Just recently > I photographed a patient with Stomach Fire because the Foot Yangming > meridian was almost glowing red! It was as if someone marked it with a > pentel marker! Explain THAT through biomedicine! > > > On Fri, Aug 21, 2009 at 10:00 PM, Hugo Ramiro <subincor (AT) (DOT) com<subincor%40. com>> > wrote: > > > > > > > Hi Yehuda and all: > > > > --Yehuda- > > > > Speaking for myself, I don't feel in the least bit threatened by them. > I'm > > sorry that you do. > > --- > > > > I myself feel threatened by low-level acupuncturists like MDs etc. I find > > myself wondering, as Tatiana did, how long our profession will last. Our > > profession is small, and I have found that as many MDs as are willing to > say > > that they are limited in their acupuncture tool use, there are more who > will > > say that they are the only ones who do it right. It seems to me that the > > next assault in the co-optation of our profession will occur as our > > underlying theory is discredited (with or without reason), finally > > eliminating any need for an actual " Doctor " from the > > picture, since acupuncture' s effects are neurologically based. > > Of course, I hope I am totally wrong and buying into a merely paranoid > > mentality. > > Thoughts? > > > > Hugo > > > > ____________ _________ _________ __ > > Hugo Ramiro > > http://middlemedici ne.wordpress. com > > http://www.chinesem edicaltherapies. org > > > > ____________ _________ _________ __ > > <%40. com><% > 40> > > > <Traditional_ Chinese_Medicine %40. com> > <Traditional_ Chinese_Medicine %40. com> > > > Friday, 21 August, 2009 1:34:21 > > Re: acupuncture for MD course > > > > > > Tatiana, > > It is important to remember that acupuncture is just a tool, like a > hammer, > > a drill or for that matter, a computer. The success is based upon the > skill > > of the craftsman. Of course, it's always nice to use quick cook book > > points to awe and amaze patients with how magical acupuncture is, but > that > > should not be the basis of our practice. Rather, the key must be to > > determine the pathogenesis of the imbalance and/or illness in order to > guide > > the patient back to balance and robust health. Any bright, knowledgeable > > and mature MD (or chiropractor, for that matter) who integrates > acupuncture > > into their practice will tell you that they recognize their limitations. > > Speaking for myself, I don't feel in the least bit threatened by them. > I'm > > sorry that you do. I would add, though, that because we are blessed we so > > many wonderful masters, scholars and teachers who offer CEU courses, one > > should make it their business to learn and keep learning. The > > skill and confidence that comes with it will speak for itself, to > potential > > patients, as well as other medical colleagues! > > 'much good fortune! > > > > www.traditional > > jewishmedicine. netwww.tradition aljewishmedicine .blogspot. com > > > > --- On Thu, 8/20/09, tgaid1 <tvgaid (AT) gmail (DOT) com> wrote: > > > > tgaid1 <tvgaid (AT) gmail (DOT) com> > > acupuncture for MD course > > > > Thursday, August 20, 2009, 9:07 PM > > > > > > > > Sorry for raising the old topic up, but i think we need to know how our > > medicine is presented to the Western doctors and how far they can go... > > > > Interesting what will be your opinion on this program for Mds: > > > > http://www.acupunct urecourse. org/a_comments. php > > > > It looks very nice, although it does not give deep understanding of TCM. > > Interesting if participants keep applying the new skills in their > practice > > and do they really get good results... I am not talking about few gifted > > practitioners or using techniques like acupuncture point injections.. . > > > > I see more and more young MD and DO with acupuncture training... > > > > Interesting, how long our profession will last. > > > > Tatiana > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 21, 2009 Report Share Posted August 21, 2009 It appears that the main point is being missed. And the so-called smearing going on.......is definitely not it. Richard In a message dated 8/21/2009 7:18:42 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, ycmgh writes: I love this... " I was once giving a lecture on complementary medicine modalities for a geriatric medicine society and one attendee asked me a question. He begins by saying he used to practice acupuncture ten years ago but his practice died out. His question? " What points would you use for migraine. " I personally love it that there are some MDs out there who are open enough to see a good thing when they see it. It's a blessing for the patients who trust you to do the best you can to restore balance within the context of the whole person. Ya-hoo. I've read some amazing stuff on the Journal of Medical Acupuncture. I suppose these are MDs who have come over to energy medicine for its sophistication and usefulness. There are many acupuncturists who don't measure up to the work produced by these MDs. How many times do we get licensed practitioners on this forum who continue to ask questions identical to the cased offered by our Filipino MD colleague? Just too many times... because they fundamentally don't understand the medicine. It's a beautiful smearing that's occurring on both sides of the Pacific, as rational-mechanicalIt's a beautiful smearing that's occurring on both sides of the Pacific, as rational-mechanical<WBR>-materialism seeks to rationalize and mechanize our medicine. Ha-haa. Sure Hugo, they may try to reduce everything to neurons but we know that the medicine will be b **************A Good Credit Score is 700 or Above. See yours in just 2 easy steps! (http://pr.atwola.com/promoclk/100126575x1222846709x1201493018/aol?redir=http://\ www.freecreditreport.com/pm/default.aspx?sc=668072 & hmpgID=115 & bcd =JulystepsfooterNO115) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 22, 2009 Report Share Posted August 22, 2009 I love this... " I was once giving a lecture on complementary medicine modalities for a geriatric medicine society and one attendee asked me a question. He begins by saying he used to practice acupuncture ten years ago but his practice died out. His question? " What points would you use for migraine. " I personally love it that there are some MDs out there who are open enough to see a good thing when they see it. It's a blessing for the patients who trust you to do the best you can to restore balance within the context of the whole person. Ya-hoo. I've read some amazing stuff on the Journal of Medical Acupuncture. I suppose these are MDs who have come over to energy medicine for its sophistication and usefulness. There are many acupuncturists who don't measure up to the work produced by these MDs. How many times do we get licensed practitioners on this forum who continue to ask questions identical to the cased offered by our Filipino MD colleague? Just too many times... because they fundamentally don't understand the medicine. It's a beautiful smearing that's occurring on both sides of the Pacific, as rational-mechanical-materialism seeks to rationalize and mechanize our medicine. Ha-haa. Sure Hugo, they may try to reduce everything to neurons but we know that the medicine will be big enough to accommodate such viewpoints whole maintaining its inherent flexibility and mystery. best health, Yang-chu Higgins Los Angeles, CA Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 22, 2009 Report Share Posted August 22, 2009 Chinese Medicine , David Sontag <acudoc wrote: > I am sorry for not US practitioners who may not have interest in this topic. As I mentioned, I see few MDs, DOs with some training in acupuncture. They started to hire acupuncturists, telling them what and how to work. No herbs, moxa...They pay 25$ an hour (acupuncturist must see 2-3-4 patients in hour). Doctors work with insurance companies which reimburse them for each patient 170$... for the work done by acupuncturist. It is even less money for acupuncturist than when they work in no fault. Acupuncturists do work for them. It is difficult to start out the business in this economy. For me it is very important for everyone, especially for people involved in healing, to have high moral. With these people I do not see it. Look at Andrew Weil website, the oracle of alternative medicine in western world. He recommends to his patients only medical acupuncture... Tatiana > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 22, 2009 Report Share Posted August 22, 2009 And the main point is ... from here ... We are the only healing arts profession that does not have effective lobbies state or federal.... not that we do not any... just nothing effective. It all comes down to money. Here in Florida if we ask practitioner for $100 a month to defend the profession, the request is met by dead air. At best that could raise $100,000 a year. Sounds like a lot maybe to much right? NO! it is far to little given the Florida Medical Association raises about $7,000,000 a year. So $100,000 Vs $7,000,000.... not much of a fair fight ... but it would at least be a start. At the moment I would doubt $20,000 is be spent on political action on behalf of OM in Florida in most given years. This in a nut shell is why out profession is doomed in the not to far off future. Once the MDs practice OM And Can Bill insurance for the service while OM practitioners can bill insurance rarely. Again money will talk ... the patient will go to the MDs ... it is covered and therefore " good enough " and after all it is a MD. At this point Our profession has to change this picture to survive in every state and on the federal (Medicare) Level. It is now the minute after... and millions of dollars need to be raised and spent effectively. Do I think it going to happen... NO! We are like the frog in to pot of water and it is starting to get hot.... it will start to boil soon... and the frog will die. Our profession will too unless we jump out of the pot and get hopping. So the only smearing that needs to be done.... is the spreading the money around. David acudoc11 wrote: > > > It appears that the main point is being missed. > And the so-called smearing going on.......is definitely not it. > > Richard > > > > In a message dated 8/21/2009 7:18:42 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, > ycmgh <ycmgh%40> writes: > > I love this... " I was once giving a lecture on > complementary medicine modalities for a geriatric medicine society and one > attendee asked me a question. He begins by saying he used to practice > acupuncture ten years ago but his practice died out. His question? " What > points would you use for migraine. " > > I personally love it that there are some MDs out there who are open > enough > to see a good thing when they see it. It's a blessing for the patients > who > trust you to do the best you can to restore balance within the context of > the whole person. Ya-hoo. > > I've read some amazing stuff on the Journal of Medical Acupuncture. I > suppose these are MDs who have come over to energy medicine for its > sophistication and usefulness. There are many acupuncturists who don't > measure up to > the work produced by these MDs. How many times do we get licensed > practitioners on this forum who continue to ask questions identical to > the cased > offered by our Filipino MD colleague? Just too many times... because they > fundamentally don't understand the medicine. > > It's a beautiful smearing that's occurring on both sides of the Pacific, > as rational-mechanicalIt's a beautiful smearing that's occurring on both > sides of the Pacific, as rational-mechanical<WBR>-materialism seeks to > rationalize and mechanize our medicine. Ha-haa. Sure Hugo, they may > try to reduce > everything to neurons but we know that the medicine will be b > > **************A Good Credit Score is 700 or Above. See yours in just 2 > easy > steps! > (http://pr.atwola.com/promoclk/100126575x1222846709x1201493018/aol?redir=http://\ www.freecreditreport.com/pm/default.aspx?sc=668072 & hmpgID=115 & bcd > <http://pr.atwola.com/promoclk/100126575x1222846709x1201493018/aol?redir=http://\ www.freecreditreport.com/pm/default.aspx?sc=668072 & hmpgID=115 & bcd> > =JulystepsfooterNO115) > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 22, 2009 Report Share Posted August 22, 2009 Thank you for your compliments sir. And a few more cents' worth: It is unfortunate that when an MD says jump most people will jump blindly. This is true not just for the example Hugo gave but for other blatant lies that the pharmaceutical companies trot out. I've had patients who were told that once they are started on anti-hypertensives they would need to take them " forever " . This is something you and I and everyone else with even minimal training and experience in holistic medicine will refute. And yes, MDs will push and shove. I hate it. Here in the Philippines " they " (ironically, I ought to say " we " ) finally gave some crumbs to acupuncture by allowing certification. However, during the deliberation for certification guidelines (I was invited because I teach in medical school and have a private practice, so I represented both education and private sector) I strenously objected to a lot of things. Firstly, why acupuncture alone? Certifying acupuncture alone and not TCM as a whole gives the impression that herbal meds are not as important. Second, why is it that since I am an MD I am therefore classified as a " medical acupuncturist " (a title I loathe like phlegm) and that other " certified acupuncturists " (which is what an LAc would be classified under in our scheme) would have to practice under MY supervision. Hogwash and baloney. Yet when I brought this up, I was told by another MD-acupuncturist that I should be happy with the concessions given now. The rest will follow later. I again objected that if this is the foundation then the rest of the building is flawed. But at the same time, gotta try to work within the system and change from within, because to fight it from outside would only heap unnecessary headache on us. Sigh.. my poor Liver. On Sat, Aug 22, 2009 at 2:36 AM, Hugo Ramiro <subincor wrote: > > > Hi Philip, thank you for your post. I enjoyed it. > > > Male patient of 50yrs comes in with a dx of mitral valve prolapse, which, > to me, looks like heart yin deficiency and some liver qi constraint > presenting as palpitations, trouble sleeping and feelings of internal heat. > > He is booked for open heart surgery in three months and has just > finished his initial western medical work-up. > We start treatment for the presenting signs and symptoms. Within 2 months, > the patient is " cured " . No palpitations, sleep is almost perfect, and > internal temperature is normal - for the first time in 5 years. Treatment > continues to just prior to pre-operative work-up. > > Patient returns from pre-op work-up and says that his cardiac surgeon said > that all his tests were normal - i.e. no mitral valve prolapse exists. > Patient reports that his surgeon did not even blink an eye and reminded him > what time to show up to the hospital to start the procedures for open heart > surgery. > > I asked, " but aren't these the same tests that were initially used to > justify heart surgery? " (Which they were) I ask the patient if he is going > to go through with the heart surgery. The patient replies that their cardiac > surgeon had said yes, so that in turn means that yes, he will go through > with it. > > Moral of the story: when a doctor says jump, people jump, no matter what > you have done for them, if the situation is considered dangerous and > " clearly lies within " the realm of western medicine. I can't see how we can > win that battle. If the patient doesn't go through with surgery, I enter a > legal area that is immensely dangerous for me, despite its fantastical > dimensions (meaning its existence entirely within a realm of fantasy). And > yet, it is a matter of the deepest ethics that the patient not undergo > procedures of extreme danger and cost unnecessarily. > Not winning this battle is important because it represents the whittling down of our scope, our ability to prove effect and our authority over the treatment of illness. In my eyes, that we are headed to a place where we will not be allowed to treat without an MD referral (read " supervision " ) and where the supervising MD will decide the scope of treatment. > ... > > > In the end, I really don't feel that reputation and therapeutic effect is > enough. Ever heard the chinese saying " casting pearls before swine " ? How > long, exactly, has Chinese medicine been safely and effectively functioning > as primary care? I believe it is not enough to just do it. > > The problem is that, when push comes to shove, the real doctors will use > their overwhelming leverage to force their position. > > It is my belief that we must work to become excellent healers / doctors, > but that it is NOT enough to do that. We must record and document our > successes, and then take that information and use it to create movement in > society. > > I apologise for the scattered nature of this post, I feel it is a > complicated and constantly changing subject, and thanks again to Philip for > sharing his experiences. > > > Hugo > > > > ________________________________ > Hugo Ramiro > http://middlemedicine.wordpress.com > http://www.middlemedicine.org > > _ > Recent Activity > > - 2 > New Members<Chinese Medicine/members;_ylc=\ X3oDMTJmY3B0bXBvBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzk0OTU5NzcEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1MDYwODE0BHNl\ YwN2dGwEc2xrA3ZtYnJzBHN0aW1lAzEyNTA4Nzk3OTk-> > > Visit Your Group > <Chinese Medicine;_ylc=X3oDMTJlN2ZwZjl\ jBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzk0OTU5NzcEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1MDYwODE0BHNlYwN2dGwEc2xrA3Z\ naHAEc3RpbWUDMTI1MDg3OTc5OQ--> > Give Back > > for Good<http://us.lrd./_ylc=X3oDMTJtOXZ2MTk4BF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BF9wAzEEZ3JwSW\ QDOTQ5NTk3NwRncnBzcElkAzE3MDUwNjA4MTQEc2VjA25jbW9kBHNsawNicmFuZARzdGltZQMxMjUwOD\ c5Nzk5;_ylg=1/SIG=11314uv3k/**http%3A//brand./forgood> > > Get inspired > > by a good cause. > Y! Toolbar > > Get it Free!<http://us.lrd./_ylc=X3oDMTJvOWgxa3NuBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BF9wAzIEZ3JwS\ WQDOTQ5NTk3NwRncnBzcElkAzE3MDUwNjA4MTQEc2VjA25jbW9kBHNsawN0b29sYmFyBHN0aW1lAzEyN\ TA4Nzk3OTk-;_ylg=1/SIG=11c6dvmk9/**http%3A//toolbar./%3F.cpdl=ygrps> > > easy 1-click access > > to your groups. > > > Start a group</start;_ylc=X3oDMTJvcTdobzNzBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BF9wAzM\ EZ3JwSWQDOTQ5NTk3NwRncnBzcElkAzE3MDUwNjA4MTQEc2VjA25jbW9kBHNsawNncm91cHMyBHN0aW1\ lAzEyNTA4Nzk3OTk-> > > in 3 easy steps. > > Connect with others. > . > > > -- Philip Nino Tan-Gatue, MD Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 22, 2009 Report Share Posted August 22, 2009 K I think a further clarification is in order regarding......... doctors influencing themselves. It is as with most professional associations (national or state) the " lawyers " who run them....... politically backed or influenced by other interest groups rather than the average MD who might be a member. Richard In a message dated 08/22/09 10:42:36 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, johnkokko writes: The number of doctors is a political decision, heavily influenced by doctors themselves. Congress controls the supply of physicians by how much federal funding it provides for medical residencies " **************A Good Credit Score is 700 or Above. See yours in just 2 easy steps! (http://pr.atwola.com/promoclk/100126575x1222846709x1201493018/aol?redir=http://\ www.freecreditreport.com/pm/default.aspx?sc=668072 & hmpgID=115 & bcd =JulystepsfooterNO115) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 22, 2009 Report Share Posted August 22, 2009 Hugo, Change is a happening and economics is that force. Most of the MD's have a large overhead in their practice model and will need to see a lot of patients. Insurers will also regulate things through reimbursements. At some point, these will fall and practice will not be sustainable. This may take some time, so be patient. Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc Chinese Medicine subincor Fri, 21 Aug 2009 18:56:11 +0000 Re: acupuncture for MD course Hi Mike, I once asked an MD I know well what his position was regarding his profession's position. He disavowed a connection - meaning that he did not feel responsible for anything his profession might do or represent. Like you say, there is no neutrality, but who is going to move against an entrenched, powerful, wealthy political force? Hugo ________________________________ Hugo Ramiro http://middlemedicine.wordpress.com http://www.chinesemedicaltherapies.org ________________________________ mike Bowser <naturaldoc1 Chinese Traditional Medicine Friday, 21 August, 2009 13:07:48 RE: acupuncture for MD course John, Just curious to at what point do we consider the individual as part of this professional problem? At some point, we must acknowledge that they are in support of this lack of education position or they should be speaking out against it. There is no neutrality anymore. Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc johnkokko (AT) gmail (DOT) com Fri, 21 Aug 2009 09:13:04 -0700 Re: acupuncture for MD course Thanks Philip for your posting. There have been several MDs who have given so much to the TCM profession.. . for instance... Leon Hammer and Nguyen Van Nghi We shouldn't be biased, but I think that many acupuncturists are on the defense, because of what has been thrown at our profession from the MD profession. I would hope that MDs would be truly educated about acupuncture and Chinese formulaism as you are. Western medicine and Chinese medicine are both allopathic and both rooted in science. As you said, if you show results, the patients will come. If you don't the patients won't. It's a natural law and as simple as that. Even if a patient will come to an MD first, because they " trust " them, they may not stick to the practitioner. The big issue is that MDs can get insurance reimbursal, whereas acupuncturists are limited. There are 800,000 MDs in the United States compared to 20,000 licensed acupuncturists. That's a 40:1 ratio and a huge political and financial leverage. K On Fri, Aug 21, 2009 at 7:22 AM, Philip Nino Tan-Gatue < philiptangatue@ gmail.com> wrote: > > > Greetings all, > > I am a longtime lurker but I find myself needing to put in my two cents on > this topic precisely because I myself am an MD who originally wanted to use > acupuncture only as an " adjunct " in my practice. However, I have learned > that TCM is a wonderful medicine system in itself. I took up further > studies and now consider myself somewhere in the middle between MDs with > minimal training and the REAL TCM practitioners like you guys. Right now, > my whole practice is TCM. > > Do not feel threatened by acupuncturist- wanna bes. So long as you put out a > " good product " someone will buy it. In my experience here in the > Philippines half-baked acupuncturists eventually see their practices die > and > they give it up altogether, while real acupuncturists survive by word of > mouth and patient referrals. A bit of context though - in the Philippines, > it is only recently that non-MDs are allowed to practice acupuncture. There > is still no real board certification for it or herbal medicine or TCM in > general. It is unfortunate that some real quacks (MDs!!!) out there think > of acupuncture as just another marketing gimmick to go with their other > so-called " wholistic " medicines (which I will decline to enumerate... ) > > Cases in point: > > Dr. E. C. MD is actually one of my inspirations (and how fortunate for me > that I work with him now in his clinic). He graduated MD in 1984 and went > to China in 1988 and 1989. Since then, he has a thriving practice as a full > time acupuncturist. Why is he successful? Firstly, his grasp of point > dynamics and other aspects of TCM is superb. Not just the cookbook > nonsense. Second, he is a master of diagnostics - carefully photographing > and analyzing tongue pictures for further study. That, and he really cares > for patients and looks at us (me included) as whole persons. I could name > more reasons, but these are the most important. > > Now, to the other side of the fence: I was once giving a lecture on > complementary medicine modalities for a geriatric medicine society and one > attendee asked me a question. He begins by saying he used to practice > acupuncture ten years ago but his practice died out. His question? " What > points would you use for migraine. " I immediately thought, " no wonder your > practice died out. " Anyway I answered, " It depends on the patient. " > > The point being that we have to trust people. People know a good thing when > they see it - especially since our intended clientelle are those actively > seeking better health solutions than what is conventionally available - > hence they will scrutinize carefully. I'm sure they'll recognize who > represents REAL chinese medicine. > > About the comment that TCM will be discredited - actually it is the other > way around. I teach in medical school and I specialize in gathering > evidence (anecdotal and otherwise) that TCM theory is valid. Just recently > I photographed a patient with Stomach Fire because the Foot Yangming > meridian was almost glowing red! It was as if someone marked it with a > pentel marker! Explain THAT through biomedicine! > > > On Fri, Aug 21, 2009 at 10:00 PM, Hugo Ramiro <subincor (AT) (DOT) com<subincor%40. com>> > wrote: > > > > > > > Hi Yehuda and all: > > > > --Yehuda- > > > > Speaking for myself, I don't feel in the least bit threatened by them. > I'm > > sorry that you do. > > --- > > > > I myself feel threatened by low-level acupuncturists like MDs etc. I find > > myself wondering, as Tatiana did, how long our profession will last. Our > > profession is small, and I have found that as many MDs as are willing to > say > > that they are limited in their acupuncture tool use, there are more who > will > > say that they are the only ones who do it right. It seems to me that the > > next assault in the co-optation of our profession will occur as our > > underlying theory is discredited (with or without reason), finally > > eliminating any need for an actual " Doctor " from the > > picture, since acupuncture' s effects are neurologically based. > > Of course, I hope I am totally wrong and buying into a merely paranoid > > mentality. > > Thoughts? > > > > Hugo > > > > ____________ _________ _________ __ > > Hugo Ramiro > > http://middlemedici ne.wordpress. com > > http://www.chinesem edicaltherapies. org > > > > ____________ _________ _________ __ > > <%40. com><% > 40> > > > <Traditional_ Chinese_Medicine %40. com> > <Traditional_ Chinese_Medicine %40. com> > > > Friday, 21 August, 2009 1:34:21 > > Re: acupuncture for MD course > > > > > > Tatiana, > > It is important to remember that acupuncture is just a tool, like a > hammer, > > a drill or for that matter, a computer. The success is based upon the > skill > > of the craftsman. Of course, it's always nice to use quick cook book > > points to awe and amaze patients with how magical acupuncture is, but > that > > should not be the basis of our practice. Rather, the key must be to > > determine the pathogenesis of the imbalance and/or illness in order to > guide > > the patient back to balance and robust health. Any bright, knowledgeable > > and mature MD (or chiropractor, for that matter) who integrates > acupuncture > > into their practice will tell you that they recognize their limitations. > > Speaking for myself, I don't feel in the least bit threatened by them. > I'm > > sorry that you do. I would add, though, that because we are blessed we so > > many wonderful masters, scholars and teachers who offer CEU courses, one > > should make it their business to learn and keep learning. The > > skill and confidence that comes with it will speak for itself, to > potential > > patients, as well as other medical colleagues! > > 'much good fortune! > > > > www.traditional > > jewishmedicine. netwww.tradition aljewishmedicine .blogspot. com > > > > --- On Thu, 8/20/09, tgaid1 <tvgaid (AT) gmail (DOT) com> wrote: > > > > tgaid1 <tvgaid (AT) gmail (DOT) com> > > acupuncture for MD course > > > > Thursday, August 20, 2009, 9:07 PM > > > > > > > > Sorry for raising the old topic up, but i think we need to know how our > > medicine is presented to the Western doctors and how far they can go... > > > > Interesting what will be your opinion on this program for Mds: > > > > http://www.acupunct urecourse. org/a_comments. php > > > > It looks very nice, although it does not give deep understanding of TCM. > > Interesting if participants keep applying the new skills in their > practice > > and do they really get good results... I am not talking about few gifted > > practitioners or using techniques like acupuncture point injections.. . > > > > I see more and more young MD and DO with acupuncture training... > > > > Interesting, how long our profession will last. > > > > Tatiana > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 22, 2009 Report Share Posted August 22, 2009 Agreed. Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc Chinese Medicine johnkokko Fri, 21 Aug 2009 11:09:11 -0700 Re: acupuncture for MD course Mike, on an individual level, those MDs who are practicing acupuncture are speaking their minds saying that acupuncture works. So, it's a double edged sword, either you get nay-sayers or you get MDs who may or may not be properly trained for acupuncture. I prefer those who practice acupuncture and get the training and licensing. They are our best proponents. K > > -- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 22, 2009 Report Share Posted August 22, 2009 Here's an interesting article about the stats on MDs in America... http://www.usatoday.com/news/health/2005-03-02-doctor-shortage_x.htm " The marketplace doesn't determine how many doctors the nation has, as it does for engineers, pilots and other professions. The number of doctors is a political decision, heavily influenced by doctors themselves. Congress controls the supply of physicians by how much federal funding it provides for medical residencies " K On Sat, Aug 22, 2009 at 6:29 AM, mike Bowser <naturaldoc1wrote: > > > > Agreed. > > > Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc > > To: Chinese Medicine <Chinese Medicine%40yaho\ ogroups.com> > johnkokko <johnkokko%40gmail.com> > Fri, 21 Aug 2009 11:09:11 -0700 > Re: acupuncture for MD course > > Mike, > > on an individual level, those MDs who are practicing acupuncture are > > speaking their minds > > saying that acupuncture works. > > So, it's a double edged sword, either you get nay-sayers > > or you get MDs who may or may not be properly trained for acupuncture. > > I prefer those who practice acupuncture and get the training and licensing. > > They are our best proponents. > > K > > > > > > > > -- > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 22, 2009 Report Share Posted August 22, 2009 >It is unfortunate that when an MD says jump most people will jump blindly. Dear Philip. Only a little revision of your statement: It is “even more” unfortunate that when a “Drug Company” says jump “most MD” will jump blindly. Stefano Marcelli Acupuncturist and MD in Italy, but not so easy to make him to jump Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 23, 2009 Report Share Posted August 23, 2009  Hi Stefano, thanks for the laughs, if only we had more docs such as yourself around. Some people assure me things are heading in that direction.  ttyl,  Hugo  ________________________________ Hugo Ramiro http://middlemedicine.wordpress.com http://www.middlemedicine.org ________________________________ stefanomarcelli <stefanomarcelli Chinese Medicine Saturday, 22 August, 2009 17:19:22 RE: acupuncture for MD course >It is unfortunate that when an MD says jump most people will jump blindly. Dear Philip. Only a little revision of your statement: It is “even more†unfortunate that when a “Drug Company†says jump “most MD†will jump blindly. Stefano Marcelli Acupuncturist and MD in Italy, but not so easy to make him to jump Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 23, 2009 Report Share Posted August 23, 2009 And when in the US these well intentioned MDs who WORK for one of the megalo-mdecial-consortiums, (manipulated by the exorbitant malpractice liability coverage), are TOLD to do something....they had better do it. Especially when the drug companies DICTATE what the " gold standard " of care is to be. Those MDs not in the US and those in the US who still own their own practice....who don;t jump so easily....BRAVO. Richard In a message dated 8/22/2009 5:20:24 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, stefanomarcelli writes: >It is unfortunate that when an MD says jump most people will jump blindly. Dear Philip. Only a little revision of your statement: It is “even more†unfortunate that when a “Drug Company†says jump “most MD†will jump blindly. Stefano Marcelli Acupuncturist and MD in Italy, but not so easy to make him to jump Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 23, 2009 Report Share Posted August 23, 2009 Thanks Tatiana for showing the truth. All LAc's were ever supposed to be within the US healthcare " system " were medical assistants to work for MDs, DOs or DCs. Richard In a message dated 8/23/2009 12:50:07 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, tvgaid writes: _Traditional_Traditional_<WBRTraditional_Tra_ (Chinese Medicine ) , David Sontag <acudoc wrote: > I am sorry for not US practitioners who may not have interest in this topic. As I mentioned, I see few MDs, DOs with some training in acupuncture. They started to hire acupuncturists, telling them what and how to work. No herbs, moxa...They pay 25$ an hour (acupuncturist must see 2-3-4 patients in hour). Doctors work with insurance companies which reimburse them for each patient 170$... for the work done by acupuncturist. It is even less money for acupuncturist than when they work in no fault. Acupuncturists do work for them. It is difficult to start out the business in this economy. For me it is very important for everyone, especially for people involved in healing, to have high moral. With these people I do not see it. Look at Andrew Weil website, the oracle of alternative medicine in western world. He recommends to his patients only medical acupuncture.Loo Tatiana > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 23, 2009 Report Share Posted August 23, 2009 Dear Kurt A point many miss is that a few MDs might take up the practice but what is deeper is that acupuncturists were mean to WORK for the system as medical assistants so MDs can bill for their services. Richard In a message dated 8/23/2009 12:59:36 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, drkochek writes: acupuncture becomes more popular, who knows what's going to happen, to add acupuncture as a modality to one's practice, good luck it's more of a disservice to the practitioner, if anyone believes that acupuncture can be learned in two weeks, well I have a bridge in Brooklyn I need to sell , KURT KOCHEK M.S. A.P D.O.M Acupuncture Physician Doctor of Oriental Medicine On Sun, Aug 23, 2009 at 9:09 AM, stefanomarcelli<stefanomarcelli wrote: > > > Dear Hugo (thank you to you too), > dear Friends, > generally I lurk, but the topic is quiet attractive, sorry if I recuperate > months of absolute silence :-) > > We all are sons of our time. IMHO our time is the time of the global fight > against the lie. But as we all lie, we all are fighting. > On what the herbs are based nobody has the smallest doubt: you swallow one > and you feel better, as before, worse, or dead :-). If you suddenly lose > your memory and you need to know what herb makes what effect, you must only > open the books where your masters and you had put good drawings and written > the specific effect of each herb, and then to go to search the physical herb > in fields or forests. > The very hard problem is with the " Qi " and its pathways, that you know are > registered on many books but they are not visible in the bodies. So we > modern men and acupuncturist (blind in eyes Qi vision) must base the needle > therapy only upon hypothesis or masters transmitted experience. The other > senses can supply but someone finish to repudiate his own creed, as Felix > Mann did. “Felix Mann was the Founder President of The Medical Acupuncture > Society 1959-1980; President of The British Medical Acupuncture Society > 1980; and Holder of The German Pain Prize 1995.†See here how his idea on > TCM has BRUTALLY changed in less than 30 years: > > http://www.felixmann.co.uk/index.html > > At the moment, if I say: dear Hugo your index is linked to your lung health, > your plant to your kidney (for years I felt a worm walking gently below the > right sole before to discover a tiny right ureteral stone), and you rebate: > demonstrate it, I cannot. If I say: behind and down the right side of your > thorax there is your liver, and you rebate: demonstrate it, I make you a > biopsy and I pull out surely liver tissue. > People who saw things that other cannot see, or still did not want to see, > very often became martyr. > I suggest everyone to read (as acupuncturists) a very intriguing short story > written by Herbert George Wells (he was an American, I underline for your > pride!) in 1911, a time where maybe someone was still seeing some crunches > of Channels and Souls. The story is “The Country of the Blind†and is free > here (among other sites). > The protagonist is as an acupuncturist but the only one man who sees the Qi > pathways, while the people the country of the blind, where he casually > ended, see only the dense matter. :-( > > http://tinyurl.com/lnz6c3 > > Ciao, > > Stefano Marcelli MD > Independent researcher in acupuncture > ---- > > Hi Stefano, thanks for the laughs, if only we had more docs such as yourself > around. Some people assure me things are heading in that direction. > > ttyl, > Hugo > > > --- Subscribe to the free online journal for TCM at Times http://www.chinesemedicinetimes.com Help build the world's largest online encyclopedia for Chinese medicine and acupuncture, click, http://www.chinesemedicinetimes.com/wiki/CMTpedia To change your email delivery settings, click, and adjust accordingly. Messages are the property of the author. Any duplication outside the group requires prior permission from the author. Please consider the environment and only print this message if absolutely necessary. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 23, 2009 Report Share Posted August 23, 2009 Dear Hugo (thank you to you too), dear Friends, generally I lurk, but the topic is quiet attractive, sorry if I recuperate months of absolute silence :-) We all are sons of our time. IMHO our time is the time of the global fight against the lie. But as we all lie, we all are fighting. On what the herbs are based nobody has the smallest doubt: you swallow one and you feel better, as before, worse, or dead :-). If you suddenly lose your memory and you need to know what herb makes what effect, you must only open the books where your masters and you had put good drawings and written the specific effect of each herb, and then to go to search the physical herb in fields or forests. The very hard problem is with the " Qi " and its pathways, that you know are registered on many books but they are not visible in the bodies. So we modern men and acupuncturist (blind in eyes Qi vision) must base the needle therapy only upon hypothesis or masters transmitted experience. The other senses can supply but someone finish to repudiate his own creed, as Felix Mann did. “Felix Mann was the Founder President of The Medical Acupuncture Society 1959-1980; President of The British Medical Acupuncture Society 1980; and Holder of The German Pain Prize 1995.†See here how his idea on TCM has BRUTALLY changed in less than 30 years: http://www.felixmann.co.uk/index.html At the moment, if I say: dear Hugo your index is linked to your lung health, your plant to your kidney (for years I felt a worm walking gently below the right sole before to discover a tiny right ureteral stone), and you rebate: demonstrate it, I cannot. If I say: behind and down the right side of your thorax there is your liver, and you rebate: demonstrate it, I make you a biopsy and I pull out surely liver tissue. People who saw things that other cannot see, or still did not want to see, very often became martyr. I suggest everyone to read (as acupuncturists) a very intriguing short story written by Herbert George Wells (he was an American, I underline for your pride!) in 1911, a time where maybe someone was still seeing some crunches of Channels and Souls. The story is “The Country of the Blind†and is free here (among other sites). The protagonist is as an acupuncturist but the only one man who sees the Qi pathways, while the people the country of the blind, where he casually ended, see only the dense matter. :-( http://tinyurl.com/lnz6c3 Ciao, Stefano Marcelli MD Independent researcher in acupuncture ---- Hi Stefano, thanks for the laughs, if only we had more docs such as yourself around. Some people assure me things are heading in that direction. ttyl, Hugo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 23, 2009 Report Share Posted August 23, 2009 Hi,Tatiana: Thank you so much for you bringing it up. It raises red flag to the future of acupuncture professionals. " I see few MDs, DOs with some training in acupuncture. They started to hire acupuncturists, telling them what and how to work. No herbs, moxa...They pay 25$ an hour (acupuncturist must see 2-3-4 patients in hour). Doctors work with insurance companies which reimburse them for each patient 170$... for the work done by acupuncturist. " I heard something like that back in 1995. I took an advance acu. course in Beijing and met some German (East) acupuncturist. There were a class of western German MDs studied there and worked on their 3-month acu. diploma course. I was told that this is the situation in Detscheland. Acupuncturists work for and are under the supervision of MDs. Another situation in Taiwan may just be as inspiring. When graduate of the medical institution of Chinese medicine graduated, they pass the exam and are awarded degrees of both western medicine and Chinese medicine. Guess what? Most of them practice western medicine because they earn more. My point is: I doubt many, if any, MDs in states (or the rest of the world) are interested in practising acupuncture (esp they are not fully trained and did not master the techniques) and dumb the WM practice that they are trained for. Competition should be chirpactors and physiotherapists, may be even naturpath doc. Remember that there are many conditions/diseases that acupuncture alone can do little about. It may work after a few acupuncture treatments but the herbal can just do the trick as well, even more convenient and quicker. I discussed that in previous post but just say it again. Acupuncture practice detached from Chinese medicine domain is rootless. Anything without roots is doomed to be diminished. Sung, Yuk-ming BA (Houston) PCEd (HKU) B,M,PhD (Chengdu U TCM), L Ac (Hong Kong) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 23, 2009 Report Share Posted August 23, 2009 acupuncture becomes more popular, who knows what's going to happen, to add acupuncture as a modality to one's practice, good luck it's more of a disservice to the practitioner, if anyone believes that acupuncture can be learned in two weeks, well I have a bridge in Brooklyn I need to sell , KURT KOCHEK M.S. A.P D.O.M Acupuncture Physician Doctor of Oriental Medicine On Sun, Aug 23, 2009 at 9:09 AM, stefanomarcelli<stefanomarcelli wrote: > > > Dear Hugo (thank you to you too), > dear Friends, > generally I lurk, but the topic is quiet attractive, sorry if I recuperate > months of absolute silence :-) > > We all are sons of our time. IMHO our time is the time of the global fight > against the lie. But as we all lie, we all are fighting. > On what the herbs are based nobody has the smallest doubt: you swallow one > and you feel better, as before, worse, or dead :-). If you suddenly lose > your memory and you need to know what herb makes what effect, you must only > open the books where your masters and you had put good drawings and written > the specific effect of each herb, and then to go to search the physical herb > in fields or forests. > The very hard problem is with the " Qi " and its pathways, that you know are > registered on many books but they are not visible in the bodies. So we > modern men and acupuncturist (blind in eyes Qi vision) must base the needle > therapy only upon hypothesis or masters transmitted experience. The other > senses can supply but someone finish to repudiate his own creed, as Felix > Mann did. “Felix Mann was the Founder President of The Medical Acupuncture > Society 1959-1980; President of The British Medical Acupuncture Society > 1980; and Holder of The German Pain Prize 1995.” See here how his idea on > TCM has BRUTALLY changed in less than 30 years: > > http://www.felixmann.co.uk/index.html > > At the moment, if I say: dear Hugo your index is linked to your lung health, > your plant to your kidney (for years I felt a worm walking gently below the > right sole before to discover a tiny right ureteral stone), and you rebate: > demonstrate it, I cannot. If I say: behind and down the right side of your > thorax there is your liver, and you rebate: demonstrate it, I make you a > biopsy and I pull out surely liver tissue. > People who saw things that other cannot see, or still did not want to see, > very often became martyr. > I suggest everyone to read (as acupuncturists) a very intriguing short story > written by Herbert George Wells (he was an American, I underline for your > pride!) in 1911, a time where maybe someone was still seeing some crunches > of Channels and Souls. The story is “The Country of the Blind” and is free > here (among other sites). > The protagonist is as an acupuncturist but the only one man who sees the Qi > pathways, while the people the country of the blind, where he casually > ended, see only the dense matter. :-( > > http://tinyurl.com/lnz6c3 > > Ciao, > > Stefano Marcelli MD > Independent researcher in acupuncture > ---- > > Hi Stefano, thanks for the laughs, if only we had more docs such as yourself > around. Some people assure me things are heading in that direction. > > ttyl, > Hugo > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 24, 2009 Report Share Posted August 24, 2009 Amen, Alleluia. On Sun, Aug 23, 2009 at 5:19 AM, stefanomarcelli <stefanomarcelli > wrote: > >It is unfortunate that when an MD says jump most > people will jump blindly. > > Dear Philip. > Only a little revision of your statement: > It is “even more” unfortunate that when a “Drug > Company” says jump “most MD” will jump blindly. > > Stefano Marcelli > Acupuncturist and MD in Italy, but not so easy to > make him to jump > > > > > > > > > -- Philip Nino Tan-Gatue, MD (stopped jumping a long time ago - you should hear me rant about flu and cervical cancer vaccine) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 11, 2009 Report Share Posted September 11, 2009 Tatiana, can you refer me to specific page where he suggests this? I haven't found one upon searching. Thanks! --Tatiana- Look at Andrew Weil website, the oracle of alternative medicine in western world. He recommends to his patients only medical acupuncture --- ________________________________ Hugo Ramiro http://middlemedicine.wordpress.com http://www.middlemedicine.com ________________________________ tgaid1 <tvgaid Chinese Medicine Friday, 21 August, 2009 21:33:24 Re: acupuncture for MD course Traditional_ Chinese_Medicine , David Sontag <acudoc wrote: > I am sorry for not US practitioners who may not have interest in this topic. As I mentioned, I see few MDs, DOs with some training in acupuncture. They started to hire acupuncturists, telling them what and how to work. No herbs, moxa...They pay 25$ an hour (acupuncturist must see 2-3-4 patients in hour). Doctors work with insurance companies which reimburse them for each patient 170$... for the work done by acupuncturist. It is even less money for acupuncturist than when they work in no fault. Acupuncturists do work for them. It is difficult to start out the business in this economy. For me it is very important for everyone, especially for people involved in healing, to have high moral. With these people I do not see it. Look at Andrew Weil website, the oracle of alternative medicine in western world. He recommends to his patients only medical acupuncture. .. Tatiana > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 11, 2009 Report Share Posted September 11, 2009 Yes, I'd like to see this too. Andrea Beth Traditional Oriental Medicine Happy Hours in the CALM Center 635 S. 10th St. Cottonwood, AZ 86326 (928) 274-1373 --- On Thu, 9/10/09, Hugo Ramiro <subincor wrote: Hugo Ramiro <subincor Re: acupuncture for MD course Chinese Medicine Thursday, September 10, 2009, 4:44 PM Tatiana, can you refer me to specific page where he suggests this? I haven't found one upon searching. Thanks! --Tatiana- Look at Andrew Weil website, the oracle of alternative medicine in western world. He recommends to his patients only medical acupuncture --- ________________________________ Hugo Ramiro http://middlemedicine.wordpress.com http://www.middlemedicine.com ________________________________ tgaid1 <tvgaid Chinese Medicine Friday, 21 August, 2009 21:33:24 Re: TCM - acupuncture for MD course Traditional_ Chinese_Medicine , David Sontag <acudoc wrote: > I am sorry for not US practitioners who may not have interest in this topic. As I mentioned, I see few MDs, DOs with some training in acupuncture. They started to hire acupuncturists, telling them what and how to work. No herbs, moxa...They pay 25$ an hour (acupuncturist must see 2-3-4 patients in hour). Doctors work with insurance companies which reimburse them for each patient 170$... for the work done by acupuncturist. It is even less money for acupuncturist than when they work in no fault. Acupuncturists do work for them. It is difficult to start out the business in this economy. For me it is very important for everyone, especially for people involved in healing, to have high moral. With these people I do not see it. Look at Andrew Weil website, the oracle of alternative medicine in western world. He recommends to his patients only medical acupuncture. .. Tatiana > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 11, 2009 Report Share Posted September 11, 2009 Chinese Medicine , Hugo Ramiro <subincor wrote: > > Tatiana, can you refer me to specific page where he suggests this? I haven't found one upon searching. Thanks! > > --Tatiana- > Look at Andrew Weil website, the oracle of alternative medicine in western world. He recommends to his patients only medical acupuncture > --- Actually, that is completely false. Searching the word acupuncture on Dr. Weil's site led me directly to this: Although there are certification courses offered to medical doctors to learn acupuncture, preferably, the practitioner will be trained in a TCM program to be maximally qualified. An understanding and background in TCM is important in achieving optimal results with acupuncture. Look for practitioners who have thorough knowledge and training in this modality of treatment and who specialize in TCM or acupuncture as their primary form of treatment. http://www.drweil.com/drw/u/ART03065/Acupuncture.html To be honest, I'm getting quite tired of people posting stuff like this. Could we move the bar up a notch or two? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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