Guest guest Posted August 21, 2009 Report Share Posted August 21, 2009 Sorry for raising the old topic up, but i think we need to know how our medicine is presented to the Western doctors and how far they can go... Interesting what will be your opinion on this program for Mds: http://www.acupuncturecourse.org/a_comments.php It looks very nice, although it does not give deep understanding of TCM. Interesting if participants keep applying the new skills in their practice and do they really get good results... I am not talking about few gifted practitioners or using techniques like acupuncture point injections... I see more and more young MD and DO with acupuncture training... Interesting, how long our profession will last. Tatiana Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 21, 2009 Report Share Posted August 21, 2009 Tatiana, It is important to remember that acupuncture is just a tool, like a hammer, a drill or for that matter, a computer. The success is based upon the skill of the craftsman. Of course, it's always nice to use quick cook book points to awe and amaze patients with how magical acupuncture is, but that should not be the basis of our practice. Rather, the key must be to determine the pathogenesis of the imbalance and/or illness in order to guide the patient back to balance and robust health. Any bright, knowledgeable and mature MD (or chiropractor, for that matter) who integrates acupuncture into their practice will tell you that they recognize their limitations. Speaking for myself, I don't feel in the least bit threatened by them. I'm sorry that you do. I would add, though, that because we are blessed we so many wonderful masters, scholars and teachers who offer CEU courses, one should make it their business to learn and keep learning. The skill and confidence that comes with it will speak for itself, to potential patients, as well as other medical colleagues! 'much good fortune! , candidate, DAOM \ --- On Thu, 8/20/09, tgaid1 <tvgaid wrote: tgaid1 <tvgaid acupuncture for MD course Chinese Medicine Thursday, August 20, 2009, 9:07 PM Sorry for raising the old topic up, but i think we need to know how our medicine is presented to the Western doctors and how far they can go... Interesting what will be your opinion on this program for Mds: http://www.acupunct urecourse. org/a_comments. php It looks very nice, although it does not give deep understanding of TCM. Interesting if participants keep applying the new skills in their practice and do they really get good results... I am not talking about few gifted practitioners or using techniques like acupuncture point injections.. . I see more and more young MD and DO with acupuncture training... Interesting, how long our profession will last. Tatiana Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 21, 2009 Report Share Posted August 21, 2009 Tatiana When presented with the reality of facts........one processes such information through their own experiences. And although its very nice not to be concerned and thereby take a casual attitude..... the hand-writing IS on the wall for all to see - if they choose to see it. What can be done about it? States like Hawaii and Montana force MDs, DOs etc to take the same 4 year course as do acupuncturists BEFORE they can pick and use an acupuncture needle. And then there are states like Florida where they need absolutely zero training to practice acupuncture and DCs only need 100 hrs plus the passing of a simple test. Some of us continue to work to change that in Florida. Richard In a message dated 8/21/2009 12:18:39 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, tvgaid writes: Sorry for raising the old topic up, but i think we need to know how our medicine is presented to the Western doctors and how far they can go... Interesting what will be your opinion on this program for Mds: _http://www.acupuncthttp://wwwhttp://www.acuphtt_ (http://www.acupuncturecourse.org/a_comments.php) It looks very nice, although it does not give deep understanding of TCM. Interesting if participants keep applying the new skills in their practice and do they really get good results... I am not talking about few gifted practitioners or using techniques like acupuncture point injections..I I see more and more young MD and DO with acupuncture training... Interesting, how long our profession will last. Tatiana Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 21, 2009 Report Share Posted August 21, 2009 Update on those statistics which tells you where the whole system is going! 10 years there were 800,000 MDs/DOs in the US and 85% of them owned their own practices. Today there is a mere 633,000 and 85% of them have been purposefully forced (by high malpractice insurance) into working for one of the medical-consortium companies. Richard In a message dated 08/21/09 12:15:14 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, johnkokko writes: There are 800,000 MDs in the United States compared to 20,000 licensed acupuncturists. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 21, 2009 Report Share Posted August 21, 2009 Michale There are a few but just a few MDs who speak out against the lack of professional education in acupuncture. The majority couldn't care less. Richard In a message dated 08/21/09 1:08:41 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, naturaldoc1 writes: Just curious to at what point do we consider the individual as part of this professional problem? At some point, we must acknowledge that they are in support of this lack of education position or they should be speaking out against it. There is no neutrality anymore. Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 21, 2009 Report Share Posted August 21, 2009 Thanks.....another practitioner who sees the handwriting on the wall. Richard In a message dated 08/21/09 1:37:44 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, acudoc writes: This is how western medicine works... what we do is ... or has been consider fringe / alternative medicine by the powers that be... i.e. the MDs. Once they adopt OM it is no longer considered alternative.MDs. Once th is how it works. Given the MDs money and power and our professions lack there of.. it will only take a generation or so to wipe us out... UNLESS we fight back by changing state laws. Our profession does not have the will to pay for what this kind of action cost ... and the MDs do ... year after year after year. We just sit around with the proverbial #30 5 " needle up our ass. That is why we will lose our profession sooner than later. David _acudoc11_ (acudoc11) wrote: > > > Tatiana > > When presented with the reality of facts....... When presented wit > information through their own experiences. > > And although its very nice not to be concerned and thereby take a casual > attitude.... attitude....<WBR>. the hand-writing IS on the wall for al > choose to see it. > > What can be done about it? States like Hawaii and Montana force MDs, DOs > etc to take the same 4 year course as do acupuncturists BEFORE they > can pick > and use an acupuncture needle. And then there are states like Florida > where > they need absolutely zero training to practice acupuncture and DCs only > need 100 hrs plus the passing of a simple test. Some of us continue to > work > to change that in Florida. > > Richard > > > In a message dated 8/21/2009 12:18:39 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, > _tvgaid_ (tvgaid) <tvgaid%tvga> writes: > > Sorry for raising the old topic up, but i think we need to know how our > medicine is presented to the Western doctors and how far they can go... > > Interesting what will be your opinion on this program for Mds: > __http://www.acupuncthttp://www.acuphttp://www.acu_ (http://www.acupuncthttp//wwwhttp://www.acuphtt_) > <_http://www.acupuncthttp://www.acuphttp://www.acu_ (http://www.acupuncthttp//wwwhttp://www.acuphtt_) > > (_http://www.acupuncthttp://wwwhttp://www.acuphtt_ (http://www.acupuncturecourse.org/a_comments.php) > <_http://www.acupuncthttp://wwwhttp://www.acuphtt_ (http://www.acupuncturecourse.org/a_comments.php) >) > It looks very nice, although it does not give deep understanding of TCM. > Interesting if participants keep applying the new skills in their > practice > and do they really get good results... I am not talking about few gifted > practitioners or using techniques like acupuncture point injections.. > > I see more and more young MD and DO with acupuncture training... > > Interesting, how long our profession will last. > > Tatiana > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 21, 2009 Report Share Posted August 21, 2009 Hi Yehuda and all: --Yehuda- Speaking for myself, I don't feel in the least bit threatened by them. I'm sorry that you do. --- I myself feel threatened by low-level acupuncturists like MDs etc. I find myself wondering, as Tatiana did, how long our profession will last. Our profession is small, and I have found that as many MDs as are willing to say that they are limited in their acupuncture tool use, there are more who will say that they are the only ones who do it right. It seems to me that the next assault in the co-optation of our profession will occur as our underlying theory is discredited (with or without reason), finally eliminating any need for an actual " Doctor " from the picture, since acupuncture's effects are neurologically based. Of course, I hope I am totally wrong and buying into a merely paranoid mentality. Thoughts? Hugo ________________________________ Hugo Ramiro http://middlemedicine.wordpress.com http://www.chinesemedicaltherapies.org ________________________________ Chinese Medicine Friday, 21 August, 2009 1:34:21 Re: acupuncture for MD course Tatiana, It is important to remember that acupuncture is just a tool, like a hammer, a drill or for that matter, a computer. The success is based upon the skill of the craftsman. Of course, it's always nice to use quick cook book points to awe and amaze patients with how magical acupuncture is, but that should not be the basis of our practice. Rather, the key must be to determine the pathogenesis of the imbalance and/or illness in order to guide the patient back to balance and robust health. Any bright, knowledgeable and mature MD (or chiropractor, for that matter) who integrates acupuncture into their practice will tell you that they recognize their limitations. Speaking for myself, I don't feel in the least bit threatened by them. I'm sorry that you do. I would add, though, that because we are blessed we so many wonderful masters, scholars and teachers who offer CEU courses, one should make it their business to learn and keep learning. The skill and confidence that comes with it will speak for itself, to potential patients, as well as other medical colleagues! 'much good fortune! www.traditional jewishmedicine. netwww.tradition aljewishmedicine .blogspot. com --- On Thu, 8/20/09, tgaid1 <tvgaid (AT) gmail (DOT) com> wrote: tgaid1 <tvgaid (AT) gmail (DOT) com> acupuncture for MD course Thursday, August 20, 2009, 9:07 PM Sorry for raising the old topic up, but i think we need to know how our medicine is presented to the Western doctors and how far they can go... Interesting what will be your opinion on this program for Mds: http://www.acupunct urecourse. org/a_comments. php It looks very nice, although it does not give deep understanding of TCM. Interesting if participants keep applying the new skills in their practice and do they really get good results... I am not talking about few gifted practitioners or using techniques like acupuncture point injections.. . I see more and more young MD and DO with acupuncture training... Interesting, how long our profession will last. Tatiana Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 21, 2009 Report Share Posted August 21, 2009 HI Yehuda and all again...unfortunately support for my paranoia from the website in question: " Statement of Need " Acupuncture treatment is extensively sought by a vast segment of the patient population. A significant and growing body of evidence is also indicating the efficacy of such complementary treatments for a wide variety of clinical indications. Acupuncture is now, in many cases, a physician reimbursable procedure with third party payers, thus reflecting its acceptance as good medical practice. It is therefore imperative that more physicians actively learn and practice these techniques since they represent the class of health care professional best positioned to deliver this care synergistically alongside " modern " or " Western " medical interventions. The necessity of this Course, as well as the enthusiasm with which it is received annually by its participants is well documented. " Thanks, Hugo ________________________________ Hugo Ramiro http://middlemedicine.wordpress.com http://www.chinesemedicaltherapies.org ________________________________ Hugo Ramiro <subincor Chinese Medicine Friday, 21 August, 2009 10:00:30 Re: acupuncture for MD course Hi Yehuda and all: --Yehuda- Speaking for myself, I don't feel in the least bit threatened by them. I'm sorry that you do. --- I myself feel threatened by low-level acupuncturists like MDs etc. I find myself wondering, as Tatiana did, how long our profession will last. Our profession is small, and I have found that as many MDs as are willing to say that they are limited in their acupuncture tool use, there are more who will say that they are the only ones who do it right. It seems to me that the next assault in the co-optation of our profession will occur as our underlying theory is discredited (with or without reason), finally eliminating any need for an actual " Doctor " from the picture, since acupuncture' s effects are neurologically based. Of course, I hope I am totally wrong and buying into a merely paranoid mentality. Thoughts? Hugo ____________ _________ _________ __ Hugo Ramiro http://middlemedici ne.wordpress. com http://www.chinesem edicaltherapies. org ____________ _________ _________ __ > Friday, 21 August, 2009 1:34:21 Re: acupuncture for MD course Tatiana, It is important to remember that acupuncture is just a tool, like a hammer, a drill or for that matter, a computer. The success is based upon the skill of the craftsman. Of course, it's always nice to use quick cook book points to awe and amaze patients with how magical acupuncture is, but that should not be the basis of our practice. Rather, the key must be to determine the pathogenesis of the imbalance and/or illness in order to guide the patient back to balance and robust health. Any bright, knowledgeable and mature MD (or chiropractor, for that matter) who integrates acupuncture into their practice will tell you that they recognize their limitations. Speaking for myself, I don't feel in the least bit threatened by them. I'm sorry that you do. I would add, though, that because we are blessed we so many wonderful masters, scholars and teachers who offer CEU courses, one should make it their business to learn and keep learning. The skill and confidence that comes with it will speak for itself, to potential patients, as well as other medical colleagues! 'much good fortune! www.traditional jewishmedicine. netwww.tradition aljewishmedicine .blogspot. com --- On Thu, 8/20/09, tgaid1 <tvgaid (AT) gmail (DOT) com> wrote: tgaid1 <tvgaid (AT) gmail (DOT) com> acupuncture for MD course Thursday, August 20, 2009, 9:07 PM Sorry for raising the old topic up, but i think we need to know how our medicine is presented to the Western doctors and how far they can go... Interesting what will be your opinion on this program for Mds: http://www.acupunct urecourse. org/a_comments. php It looks very nice, although it does not give deep understanding of TCM. Interesting if participants keep applying the new skills in their practice and do they really get good results... I am not talking about few gifted practitioners or using techniques like acupuncture point injections.. . I see more and more young MD and DO with acupuncture training... Interesting, how long our profession will last. Tatiana Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 21, 2009 Report Share Posted August 21, 2009 Greetings all, I am a longtime lurker but I find myself needing to put in my two cents on this topic precisely because I myself am an MD who originally wanted to use acupuncture only as an " adjunct " in my practice. However, I have learned that TCM is a wonderful medicine system in itself. I took up further studies and now consider myself somewhere in the middle between MDs with minimal training and the REAL TCM practitioners like you guys. Right now, my whole practice is TCM. Do not feel threatened by acupuncturist-wanna bes. So long as you put out a " good product " someone will buy it. In my experience here in the Philippines half-baked acupuncturists eventually see their practices die and they give it up altogether, while real acupuncturists survive by word of mouth and patient referrals. A bit of context though - in the Philippines, it is only recently that non-MDs are allowed to practice acupuncture. There is still no real board certification for it or herbal medicine or TCM in general. It is unfortunate that some real quacks (MDs!!!) out there think of acupuncture as just another marketing gimmick to go with their other so-called " wholistic " medicines (which I will decline to enumerate...) Cases in point: Dr. E. C. MD is actually one of my inspirations (and how fortunate for me that I work with him now in his clinic). He graduated MD in 1984 and went to China in 1988 and 1989. Since then, he has a thriving practice as a full time acupuncturist. Why is he successful? Firstly, his grasp of point dynamics and other aspects of TCM is superb. Not just the cookbook nonsense. Second, he is a master of diagnostics - carefully photographing and analyzing tongue pictures for further study. That, and he really cares for patients and looks at us (me included) as whole persons. I could name more reasons, but these are the most important. Now, to the other side of the fence: I was once giving a lecture on complementary medicine modalities for a geriatric medicine society and one attendee asked me a question. He begins by saying he used to practice acupuncture ten years ago but his practice died out. His question? " What points would you use for migraine. " I immediately thought, " no wonder your practice died out. " Anyway I answered, " It depends on the patient. " The point being that we have to trust people. People know a good thing when they see it - especially since our intended clientelle are those actively seeking better health solutions than what is conventionally available - hence they will scrutinize carefully. I'm sure they'll recognize who represents REAL chinese medicine. About the comment that TCM will be discredited - actually it is the other way around. I teach in medical school and I specialize in gathering evidence (anecdotal and otherwise) that TCM theory is valid. Just recently I photographed a patient with Stomach Fire because the Foot Yangming meridian was almost glowing red! It was as if someone marked it with a pentel marker! Explain THAT through biomedicine! On Fri, Aug 21, 2009 at 10:00 PM, Hugo Ramiro <subincor wrote: > > > Hi Yehuda and all: > > --Yehuda- > > Speaking for myself, I don't feel in the least bit threatened by them. I'm > sorry that you do. > --- > > I myself feel threatened by low-level acupuncturists like MDs etc. I find > myself wondering, as Tatiana did, how long our profession will last. Our > profession is small, and I have found that as many MDs as are willing to say > that they are limited in their acupuncture tool use, there are more who will > say that they are the only ones who do it right. It seems to me that the > next assault in the co-optation of our profession will occur as our > underlying theory is discredited (with or without reason), finally > eliminating any need for an actual " Doctor " from the > picture, since acupuncture's effects are neurologically based. > Of course, I hope I am totally wrong and buying into a merely paranoid > mentality. > Thoughts? > > Hugo > > ________________________________ > Hugo Ramiro > http://middlemedicine.wordpress.com > http://www.chinesemedicaltherapies.org > > ________________________________ > <%40>> > To: Chinese Medicine <Chinese Medicine%40yaho\ ogroups.com> > Friday, 21 August, 2009 1:34:21 > Re: acupuncture for MD course > > > Tatiana, > It is important to remember that acupuncture is just a tool, like a hammer, > a drill or for that matter, a computer. The success is based upon the skill > of the craftsman. Of course, it's always nice to use quick cook book > points to awe and amaze patients with how magical acupuncture is, but that > should not be the basis of our practice. Rather, the key must be to > determine the pathogenesis of the imbalance and/or illness in order to guide > the patient back to balance and robust health. Any bright, knowledgeable > and mature MD (or chiropractor, for that matter) who integrates acupuncture > into their practice will tell you that they recognize their limitations. > Speaking for myself, I don't feel in the least bit threatened by them. I'm > sorry that you do. I would add, though, that because we are blessed we so > many wonderful masters, scholars and teachers who offer CEU courses, one > should make it their business to learn and keep learning. The > skill and confidence that comes with it will speak for itself, to potential > patients, as well as other medical colleagues! > 'much good fortune! > > www.traditional > jewishmedicine. netwww.tradition aljewishmedicine .blogspot. com > > --- On Thu, 8/20/09, tgaid1 <tvgaid (AT) gmail (DOT) com> wrote: > > tgaid1 <tvgaid (AT) gmail (DOT) com> > acupuncture for MD course > > Thursday, August 20, 2009, 9:07 PM > > > > Sorry for raising the old topic up, but i think we need to know how our > medicine is presented to the Western doctors and how far they can go... > > Interesting what will be your opinion on this program for Mds: > > http://www.acupunct urecourse. org/a_comments. php > > It looks very nice, although it does not give deep understanding of TCM. > Interesting if participants keep applying the new skills in their practice > and do they really get good results... I am not talking about few gifted > practitioners or using techniques like acupuncture point injections.. . > > I see more and more young MD and DO with acupuncture training... > > Interesting, how long our profession will last. > > Tatiana > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 21, 2009 Report Share Posted August 21, 2009 Tatiyana Hopefully this can address some of your concerns. This is from one of the pages of the Acupuncture Org teaching MDs. Richard Acupuncture Course Statement of Need " Acupuncture treatment is extensively sought by a vast segment of the patient population. A significant and growing body of evidence is also indicating the efficacy of such complementary treatments for a wide variety of clinical indications. Acupuncture is now, in many cases, a physician reimbursable procedure with third party payers, thus reflecting its acceptance as good medical practice. It is therefore imperative that more physicians actively learn and practice these techniques since they represent the class of health care professional best positioned to deliver this care synergistically alongside " modern " or " Western " medical interventions. The necessity of this Course, as well as the enthusiasm with which it is received annually by its participants is well _documented_ (http://www.acupuncturecourse.org/a_comments.php) . " Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 21, 2009 Report Share Posted August 21, 2009 Thanks Philip for your posting. There have been several MDs who have given so much to the TCM profession... for instance... Leon Hammer and Nguyen Van Nghi We shouldn't be biased, but I think that many acupuncturists are on the defense, because of what has been thrown at our profession from the MD profession. I would hope that MDs would be truly educated about acupuncture and Chinese formulaism as you are. Western medicine and Chinese medicine are both allopathic and both rooted in science. As you said, if you show results, the patients will come. If you don't the patients won't. It's a natural law and as simple as that. Even if a patient will come to an MD first, because they " trust " them, they may not stick to the practitioner. The big issue is that MDs can get insurance reimbursal, whereas acupuncturists are limited. There are 800,000 MDs in the United States compared to 20,000 licensed acupuncturists. That's a 40:1 ratio and a huge political and financial leverage. K On Fri, Aug 21, 2009 at 7:22 AM, Philip Nino Tan-Gatue < philiptangatue wrote: > > > Greetings all, > > I am a longtime lurker but I find myself needing to put in my two cents on > this topic precisely because I myself am an MD who originally wanted to use > acupuncture only as an " adjunct " in my practice. However, I have learned > that TCM is a wonderful medicine system in itself. I took up further > studies and now consider myself somewhere in the middle between MDs with > minimal training and the REAL TCM practitioners like you guys. Right now, > my whole practice is TCM. > > Do not feel threatened by acupuncturist-wanna bes. So long as you put out a > " good product " someone will buy it. In my experience here in the > Philippines half-baked acupuncturists eventually see their practices die > and > they give it up altogether, while real acupuncturists survive by word of > mouth and patient referrals. A bit of context though - in the Philippines, > it is only recently that non-MDs are allowed to practice acupuncture. There > is still no real board certification for it or herbal medicine or TCM in > general. It is unfortunate that some real quacks (MDs!!!) out there think > of acupuncture as just another marketing gimmick to go with their other > so-called " wholistic " medicines (which I will decline to enumerate...) > > Cases in point: > > Dr. E. C. MD is actually one of my inspirations (and how fortunate for me > that I work with him now in his clinic). He graduated MD in 1984 and went > to China in 1988 and 1989. Since then, he has a thriving practice as a full > time acupuncturist. Why is he successful? Firstly, his grasp of point > dynamics and other aspects of TCM is superb. Not just the cookbook > nonsense. Second, he is a master of diagnostics - carefully photographing > and analyzing tongue pictures for further study. That, and he really cares > for patients and looks at us (me included) as whole persons. I could name > more reasons, but these are the most important. > > Now, to the other side of the fence: I was once giving a lecture on > complementary medicine modalities for a geriatric medicine society and one > attendee asked me a question. He begins by saying he used to practice > acupuncture ten years ago but his practice died out. His question? " What > points would you use for migraine. " I immediately thought, " no wonder your > practice died out. " Anyway I answered, " It depends on the patient. " > > The point being that we have to trust people. People know a good thing when > they see it - especially since our intended clientelle are those actively > seeking better health solutions than what is conventionally available - > hence they will scrutinize carefully. I'm sure they'll recognize who > represents REAL chinese medicine. > > About the comment that TCM will be discredited - actually it is the other > way around. I teach in medical school and I specialize in gathering > evidence (anecdotal and otherwise) that TCM theory is valid. Just recently > I photographed a patient with Stomach Fire because the Foot Yangming > meridian was almost glowing red! It was as if someone marked it with a > pentel marker! Explain THAT through biomedicine! > > > On Fri, Aug 21, 2009 at 10:00 PM, Hugo Ramiro <subincor<subincor%40>> > wrote: > > > > > > > Hi Yehuda and all: > > > > --Yehuda- > > > > Speaking for myself, I don't feel in the least bit threatened by them. > I'm > > sorry that you do. > > --- > > > > I myself feel threatened by low-level acupuncturists like MDs etc. I find > > myself wondering, as Tatiana did, how long our profession will last. Our > > profession is small, and I have found that as many MDs as are willing to > say > > that they are limited in their acupuncture tool use, there are more who > will > > say that they are the only ones who do it right. It seems to me that the > > next assault in the co-optation of our profession will occur as our > > underlying theory is discredited (with or without reason), finally > > eliminating any need for an actual " Doctor " from the > > picture, since acupuncture's effects are neurologically based. > > Of course, I hope I am totally wrong and buying into a merely paranoid > > mentality. > > Thoughts? > > > > Hugo > > > > ________________________________ > > Hugo Ramiro > > http://middlemedicine.wordpress.com > > http://www.chinesemedicaltherapies.org > > > > ________________________________ > > <%40><% > 40>> > > To: Chinese Medicine <Chinese Medicine%40yaho\ ogroups.com> > <Chinese Medicine%40> > > > Friday, 21 August, 2009 1:34:21 > > Re: acupuncture for MD course > > > > > > Tatiana, > > It is important to remember that acupuncture is just a tool, like a > hammer, > > a drill or for that matter, a computer. The success is based upon the > skill > > of the craftsman. Of course, it's always nice to use quick cook book > > points to awe and amaze patients with how magical acupuncture is, but > that > > should not be the basis of our practice. Rather, the key must be to > > determine the pathogenesis of the imbalance and/or illness in order to > guide > > the patient back to balance and robust health. Any bright, knowledgeable > > and mature MD (or chiropractor, for that matter) who integrates > acupuncture > > into their practice will tell you that they recognize their limitations. > > Speaking for myself, I don't feel in the least bit threatened by them. > I'm > > sorry that you do. I would add, though, that because we are blessed we so > > many wonderful masters, scholars and teachers who offer CEU courses, one > > should make it their business to learn and keep learning. The > > skill and confidence that comes with it will speak for itself, to > potential > > patients, as well as other medical colleagues! > > 'much good fortune! > > > > www.traditional > > jewishmedicine. netwww.tradition aljewishmedicine .blogspot. com > > > > --- On Thu, 8/20/09, tgaid1 <tvgaid (AT) gmail (DOT) com> wrote: > > > > tgaid1 <tvgaid (AT) gmail (DOT) com> > > acupuncture for MD course > > > > Thursday, August 20, 2009, 9:07 PM > > > > > > > > Sorry for raising the old topic up, but i think we need to know how our > > medicine is presented to the Western doctors and how far they can go... > > > > Interesting what will be your opinion on this program for Mds: > > > > http://www.acupunct urecourse. org/a_comments. php > > > > It looks very nice, although it does not give deep understanding of TCM. > > Interesting if participants keep applying the new skills in their > practice > > and do they really get good results... I am not talking about few gifted > > practitioners or using techniques like acupuncture point injections.. . > > > > I see more and more young MD and DO with acupuncture training... > > > > Interesting, how long our profession will last. > > > > Tatiana > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 21, 2009 Report Share Posted August 21, 2009 Hugo, From the scientific world, you might want to look at the peer-reviewed works of Dr Soh, as well as his predecessor Dr Kim Bonghan, on a system of microtubules that appear to follow the channel descriptions and attach to organs. I mention this system as a way to demonstrate to the medical types that there might be other ideas than nerve functioning to explain TCM. This would be an objective system that stands in opposition to their nerve functioning-only model and may actually turn out to be what the ancients had known. Just an FYI. I would also start to mention this to people, so that they can understand a myth (nerve function) when they hear about it. Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc Chinese Medicine subincor Fri, 21 Aug 2009 14:00:30 +0000 Re: acupuncture for MD course Hi Yehuda and all: --Yehuda- Speaking for myself, I don't feel in the least bit threatened by them. I'm sorry that you do. --- I myself feel threatened by low-level acupuncturists like MDs etc. I find myself wondering, as Tatiana did, how long our profession will last. Our profession is small, and I have found that as many MDs as are willing to say that they are limited in their acupuncture tool use, there are more who will say that they are the only ones who do it right. It seems to me that the next assault in the co-optation of our profession will occur as our underlying theory is discredited (with or without reason), finally eliminating any need for an actual " Doctor " from the picture, since acupuncture's effects are neurologically based. Of course, I hope I am totally wrong and buying into a merely paranoid mentality. Thoughts? Hugo ________________________________ Hugo Ramiro http://middlemedicine.wordpress.com http://www.chinesemedicaltherapies.org ________________________________ Chinese Medicine Friday, 21 August, 2009 1:34:21 Re: acupuncture for MD course Tatiana, It is important to remember that acupuncture is just a tool, like a hammer, a drill or for that matter, a computer. The success is based upon the skill of the craftsman. Of course, it's always nice to use quick cook book points to awe and amaze patients with how magical acupuncture is, but that should not be the basis of our practice. Rather, the key must be to determine the pathogenesis of the imbalance and/or illness in order to guide the patient back to balance and robust health. Any bright, knowledgeable and mature MD (or chiropractor, for that matter) who integrates acupuncture into their practice will tell you that they recognize their limitations. Speaking for myself, I don't feel in the least bit threatened by them. I'm sorry that you do. I would add, though, that because we are blessed we so many wonderful masters, scholars and teachers who offer CEU courses, one should make it their business to learn and keep learning. The skill and confidence that comes with it will speak for itself, to potential patients, as well as other medical colleagues! 'much good fortune! www.traditional jewishmedicine. netwww.tradition aljewishmedicine .blogspot. com --- On Thu, 8/20/09, tgaid1 <tvgaid (AT) gmail (DOT) com> wrote: tgaid1 <tvgaid (AT) gmail (DOT) com> acupuncture for MD course Thursday, August 20, 2009, 9:07 PM Sorry for raising the old topic up, but i think we need to know how our medicine is presented to the Western doctors and how far they can go... Interesting what will be your opinion on this program for Mds: http://www.acupunct urecourse. org/a_comments. php It looks very nice, although it does not give deep understanding of TCM. Interesting if participants keep applying the new skills in their practice and do they really get good results... I am not talking about few gifted practitioners or using techniques like acupuncture point injections.. . I see more and more young MD and DO with acupuncture training... Interesting, how long our profession will last. Tatiana Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 21, 2009 Report Share Posted August 21, 2009 John, Just curious to at what point do we consider the individual as part of this professional problem? At some point, we must acknowledge that they are in support of this lack of education position or they should be speaking out against it. There is no neutrality anymore. Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc Chinese Medicine johnkokko Fri, 21 Aug 2009 09:13:04 -0700 Re: acupuncture for MD course Thanks Philip for your posting. There have been several MDs who have given so much to the TCM profession... for instance... Leon Hammer and Nguyen Van Nghi We shouldn't be biased, but I think that many acupuncturists are on the defense, because of what has been thrown at our profession from the MD profession. I would hope that MDs would be truly educated about acupuncture and Chinese formulaism as you are. Western medicine and Chinese medicine are both allopathic and both rooted in science. As you said, if you show results, the patients will come. If you don't the patients won't. It's a natural law and as simple as that. Even if a patient will come to an MD first, because they " trust " them, they may not stick to the practitioner. The big issue is that MDs can get insurance reimbursal, whereas acupuncturists are limited. There are 800,000 MDs in the United States compared to 20,000 licensed acupuncturists. That's a 40:1 ratio and a huge political and financial leverage. K On Fri, Aug 21, 2009 at 7:22 AM, Philip Nino Tan-Gatue < philiptangatue wrote: > > > Greetings all, > > I am a longtime lurker but I find myself needing to put in my two cents on > this topic precisely because I myself am an MD who originally wanted to use > acupuncture only as an " adjunct " in my practice. However, I have learned > that TCM is a wonderful medicine system in itself. I took up further > studies and now consider myself somewhere in the middle between MDs with > minimal training and the REAL TCM practitioners like you guys. Right now, > my whole practice is TCM. > > Do not feel threatened by acupuncturist-wanna bes. So long as you put out a > " good product " someone will buy it. In my experience here in the > Philippines half-baked acupuncturists eventually see their practices die > and > they give it up altogether, while real acupuncturists survive by word of > mouth and patient referrals. A bit of context though - in the Philippines, > it is only recently that non-MDs are allowed to practice acupuncture. There > is still no real board certification for it or herbal medicine or TCM in > general. It is unfortunate that some real quacks (MDs!!!) out there think > of acupuncture as just another marketing gimmick to go with their other > so-called " wholistic " medicines (which I will decline to enumerate...) > > Cases in point: > > Dr. E. C. MD is actually one of my inspirations (and how fortunate for me > that I work with him now in his clinic). He graduated MD in 1984 and went > to China in 1988 and 1989. Since then, he has a thriving practice as a full > time acupuncturist. Why is he successful? Firstly, his grasp of point > dynamics and other aspects of TCM is superb. Not just the cookbook > nonsense. Second, he is a master of diagnostics - carefully photographing > and analyzing tongue pictures for further study. That, and he really cares > for patients and looks at us (me included) as whole persons. I could name > more reasons, but these are the most important. > > Now, to the other side of the fence: I was once giving a lecture on > complementary medicine modalities for a geriatric medicine society and one > attendee asked me a question. He begins by saying he used to practice > acupuncture ten years ago but his practice died out. His question? " What > points would you use for migraine. " I immediately thought, " no wonder your > practice died out. " Anyway I answered, " It depends on the patient. " > > The point being that we have to trust people. People know a good thing when > they see it - especially since our intended clientelle are those actively > seeking better health solutions than what is conventionally available - > hence they will scrutinize carefully. I'm sure they'll recognize who > represents REAL chinese medicine. > > About the comment that TCM will be discredited - actually it is the other > way around. I teach in medical school and I specialize in gathering > evidence (anecdotal and otherwise) that TCM theory is valid. Just recently > I photographed a patient with Stomach Fire because the Foot Yangming > meridian was almost glowing red! It was as if someone marked it with a > pentel marker! Explain THAT through biomedicine! > > > On Fri, Aug 21, 2009 at 10:00 PM, Hugo Ramiro <subincor<subincor%40>> > wrote: > > > > > > > Hi Yehuda and all: > > > > --Yehuda- > > > > Speaking for myself, I don't feel in the least bit threatened by them. > I'm > > sorry that you do. > > --- > > > > I myself feel threatened by low-level acupuncturists like MDs etc. I find > > myself wondering, as Tatiana did, how long our profession will last. Our > > profession is small, and I have found that as many MDs as are willing to > say > > that they are limited in their acupuncture tool use, there are more who > will > > say that they are the only ones who do it right. It seems to me that the > > next assault in the co-optation of our profession will occur as our > > underlying theory is discredited (with or without reason), finally > > eliminating any need for an actual " Doctor " from the > > picture, since acupuncture's effects are neurologically based. > > Of course, I hope I am totally wrong and buying into a merely paranoid > > mentality. > > Thoughts? > > > > Hugo > > > > ________________________________ > > Hugo Ramiro > > http://middlemedicine.wordpress.com > > http://www.chinesemedicaltherapies.org > > > > ________________________________ > > <%40><% > 40>> > > To: Chinese Medicine <Chinese Medicine%40yaho\ ogroups.com> > <Chinese Medicine%40> > > > Friday, 21 August, 2009 1:34:21 > > Re: acupuncture for MD course > > > > > > Tatiana, > > It is important to remember that acupuncture is just a tool, like a > hammer, > > a drill or for that matter, a computer. The success is based upon the > skill > > of the craftsman. Of course, it's always nice to use quick cook book > > points to awe and amaze patients with how magical acupuncture is, but > that > > should not be the basis of our practice. Rather, the key must be to > > determine the pathogenesis of the imbalance and/or illness in order to > guide > > the patient back to balance and robust health. Any bright, knowledgeable > > and mature MD (or chiropractor, for that matter) who integrates > acupuncture > > into their practice will tell you that they recognize their limitations. > > Speaking for myself, I don't feel in the least bit threatened by them. > I'm > > sorry that you do. I would add, though, that because we are blessed we so > > many wonderful masters, scholars and teachers who offer CEU courses, one > > should make it their business to learn and keep learning. The > > skill and confidence that comes with it will speak for itself, to > potential > > patients, as well as other medical colleagues! > > 'much good fortune! > > > > www.traditional > > jewishmedicine. netwww.tradition aljewishmedicine .blogspot. com > > > > --- On Thu, 8/20/09, tgaid1 <tvgaid (AT) gmail (DOT) com> wrote: > > > > tgaid1 <tvgaid (AT) gmail (DOT) com> > > acupuncture for MD course > > > > Thursday, August 20, 2009, 9:07 PM > > > > > > > > Sorry for raising the old topic up, but i think we need to know how our > > medicine is presented to the Western doctors and how far they can go... > > > > Interesting what will be your opinion on this program for Mds: > > > > http://www.acupunct urecourse. org/a_comments. php > > > > It looks very nice, although it does not give deep understanding of TCM. > > Interesting if participants keep applying the new skills in their > practice > > and do they really get good results... I am not talking about few gifted > > practitioners or using techniques like acupuncture point injections.. . > > > > I see more and more young MD and DO with acupuncture training... > > > > Interesting, how long our profession will last. > > > > Tatiana > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 21, 2009 Report Share Posted August 21, 2009 Interesting that this group also offers TCM herbal training. Hmmh. Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc Chinese Medicine tvgaid Fri, 21 Aug 2009 04:07:29 +0000 acupuncture for MD course Sorry for raising the old topic up, but i think we need to know how our medicine is presented to the Western doctors and how far they can go... Interesting what will be your opinion on this program for Mds: http://www.acupuncturecourse.org/a_comments.php It looks very nice, although it does not give deep understanding of TCM. Interesting if participants keep applying the new skills in their practice and do they really get good results... I am not talking about few gifted practitioners or using techniques like acupuncture point injections... I see more and more young MD and DO with acupuncture training... Interesting, how long our profession will last. Tatiana _______________ With Windows Live, you can organize, edit, and share your photos. http://www.windowslive.com/Desktop/PhotoGallery Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 21, 2009 Report Share Posted August 21, 2009 This is how western medicine works... what we do is ... or has been consider fringe / alternative medicine by the powers that be... i.e. the MDs. Once they adopt OM it is no longer considered alternative... that is how it works. Given the MDs money and power and our professions lack there of.. it will only take a generation or so to wipe us out... UNLESS we fight back by changing state laws. Our profession does not have the will to pay for what this kind of action cost ... and the MDs do ... year after year after year. We just sit around with the proverbial #30 5 " needle up our ass. That is why we will lose our profession sooner than later. David acudoc11 wrote: > > > Tatiana > > When presented with the reality of facts........one processes such > information through their own experiences. > > And although its very nice not to be concerned and thereby take a casual > attitude..... the hand-writing IS on the wall for all to see - if they > choose to see it. > > What can be done about it? States like Hawaii and Montana force MDs, DOs > etc to take the same 4 year course as do acupuncturists BEFORE they > can pick > and use an acupuncture needle. And then there are states like Florida > where > they need absolutely zero training to practice acupuncture and DCs only > need 100 hrs plus the passing of a simple test. Some of us continue to > work > to change that in Florida. > > Richard > > > In a message dated 8/21/2009 12:18:39 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, > tvgaid <tvgaid%40gmail.com> writes: > > Sorry for raising the old topic up, but i think we need to know how our > medicine is presented to the Western doctors and how far they can go... > > Interesting what will be your opinion on this program for Mds: > _http://www.acupuncthttp://wwwhttp://www.acuphtt_ > <http://www.acupuncthttp://wwwhttp://www.acuphtt_> > (http://www.acupuncturecourse.org/a_comments.php > <http://www.acupuncturecourse.org/a_comments.php>) > It looks very nice, although it does not give deep understanding of TCM. > Interesting if participants keep applying the new skills in their > practice > and do they really get good results... I am not talking about few gifted > practitioners or using techniques like acupuncture point injections..I > > I see more and more young MD and DO with acupuncture training... > > Interesting, how long our profession will last. > > Tatiana > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 21, 2009 Report Share Posted August 21, 2009 Mike, on an individual level, those MDs who are practicing acupuncture are speaking their minds saying that acupuncture works. So, it's a double edged sword, either you get nay-sayers or you get MDs who may or may not be properly trained for acupuncture. I prefer those who practice acupuncture and get the training and licensing. They are our best proponents. K > > -- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 21, 2009 Report Share Posted August 21, 2009 Thanks for your post Dr Philip Tan-Gatue. Just visited there last week. I?saw?couple of?shingles of MD acupuncturist. I heard there's a school somewhere in Laguna doing 6mos basic acupuncture training. Can you please comment on this doctor.? Planing to move? & open practice there in a year. ( likely, Alabang area). We've exchanged brief emails in the past, via Philippine herb group. I have a very limited practice in Florida now, in preparation to moving to Alabang. Eager to hear from you. Take care. ???????????????????????????????????????????? Amy Calibuso, RN,LMT, AP.DOM ? Philip Nino Tan-Gatue <philiptangatue Chinese Medicine Fri, Aug 21, 2009 10:22 am Re: acupuncture for MD course Greetings all, I am a longtime lurker but I find myself needing to put in my two cents on this topic precisely because I myself am an MD who originally wanted to use acupuncture only as an " adjunct " in my practice. However, I have learned that TCM is a wonderful medicine system in itself. I took up further studies and now consider myself somewhere in the middle between MDs with minimal training and the REAL TCM practitioners like you guys. Right now, my whole practice is TCM. Do not feel threatened by acupuncturist-wanna bes. So long as you put out a " good product " someone will buy it. In my experience here in the Philippines half-baked acupuncturists eventually see their practices die and they give it up altogether, while real acupuncturists survive by word of mouth and patient referrals. A bit of context though - in the Philippines, it is only recently that non-MDs are allowed to practice acupuncture. There is still no real board certification for it or herbal medicine or TCM in general. It is unfortunate that some real quacks (MDs!!!) out there think of acupuncture as just another marketing gimmick to go with their other so-called " wholistic " medicines (which I will decline to enumerate...) Cases in point: Dr. E. C. MD is actually one of my inspirations (and how fortunate for me that I work with him now in his clinic). He graduated MD in 1984 and went to China in 1988 and 1989. Since then, he has a thriving practice as a full time acupuncturist. Why is he successful? Firstly, his grasp of point dynamics and other aspects of TCM is superb. Not just the cookbook nonsense. Second, he is a master of diagnostics - carefully photographing and analyzing tongue pictures for further study. That, and he really cares for patients and looks at us (me included) as whole persons. I could name more reasons, but these are the most important. Now, to the other side of the fence: I was once giving a lecture on complementary medicine modalities for a geriatric medicine society and one attendee asked me a qu estion. He begins by saying he used to practice acupuncture ten years ago but his practice died out. His question? " What points would you use for migraine. " I immediately thought, " no wonder your practice died out. " Anyway I answered, " It depends on the patient. " The point being that we have to trust people. People know a good thing when they see it - especially since our intended clientelle are those actively seeking better health solutions than what is conventionally available - hence they will scrutinize carefully. I'm sure they'll recognize who represents REAL chinese medicine. About the comment that TCM will be discredited - actually it is the other way around. I teach in medical school and I specialize in gathering evidence (anecdotal and otherwise) that TCM theory is valid. Just recently I photographed a patient with Stomach Fire because the Foot Yangming meridian was almost glowing red! It was as if someone marked it with a pentel marker! Explain THAT through biomedicine! On Fri, Aug 21, 2009 at 10:00 PM, Hugo Ramiro <subincor wrote: > > > Hi Yehuda and all: > > --Yehuda- > > Speaking for myself, I don't feel in the least bit threatened by them. I'm > sorry that you do. > --- > > I myself feel threatened by low-level acupuncturists like MDs etc. I find > myself wondering, as Tatiana did, how long our profession will last. Our > profession is small, and I have found that as many MDs as are willing to say > that they are limited in their acupuncture tool use, there are more who will > say that they are the only ones who do it right. It seems to me that the > next assault in the co-optation of our profession will occur as our > underlying theory is discredited (with or without reason), finally > eliminating any need for an actual " Doctor " from the > picture, since acupuncture's effects are neurologically based. > Of course, I hope I am totally wrong and buying into a merely paranoid > mentality. > Thoughts? > > Hugo > > ________________________________ > H ugo Ramiro > http://middlemedicine.wordpress.com > http://www.chinesemedicaltherapies.org > > ________________________________ > <%40>> > To: Chinese Medicine <Chinese Medicine%40yaho\ ogroups.com> > Friday, 21 August, 2009 1:34:21 > Re: acupuncture for MD course > > > Tatiana, > It is important to remember that acupuncture is just a tool, like a hammer, > a drill or for that matter, a computer. The success is based upon the skill > of the craftsman. Of course, it's always nice to use quick cook book > points to awe and amaze patients with how magical acupuncture is, but that > should not be the basis of our practice. Rather, the key must be to > determine the pathogenesis of the imbalance and/or illness in order to guide > the patient back to balance and robust health. Any bright, knowledgeable > and mature MD (or chiropractor, for that matter) who integrates acupuncture > into their practice will tell you that they recognize their limitations. > Speaking for myself, I don't feel in the least bit threatened by them. I'm > sorry that you do. I would add, though, that because we are blessed we so > many wonderful masters, scholars and teachers who offer CEU courses, one > should make it their business to learn and keep learning. The > skill and confidence that comes with it will speak for itself, to potential > patients, as well as other medical colleagues! > 'much good fortune! > > www.traditional > jewishmedicine. netwww.tradition aljewishmedicine .blogspot. com > > --- On Thu, 8/20/09, tgaid1 <tvgaid (AT) gmail (DOT) com> wrote: > > tgaid1 <tvgaid (AT) gmail (DOT) com> > acupuncture for MD course > > Thursday, August 20, 2009, 9:07 PM > > > > Sorry for raising the old topic up, but i think we need to know how our > medicine is presented to the Western doctors and how far they can go... > > Interesting what will be your opinion on this program for Mds: > > http://www.acupunct urecourse. org/a_comments. php > > It looks very nice, although it does not give deep understanding of TCM. > Interesting if participants keep applying the new skills in their practice > and do they really get good results... I am not talking about few gifted > practitioners or using techniques like acupuncture point injections.. . > > I see more and more young MD and DO with acupuncture training... > > Interesting, how long our profession will last. > > Tatiana > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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