Guest guest Posted June 17, 2009 Report Share Posted June 17, 2009 Fiamma I agree with Tom. In addition.....the way I've seen many practitioners inserting at K-3..... does not make allowance for the artery. If I remember correctly the books and instructors show a perpendicular insertion. A better insertion would be to first palpate for the artery and then insert obliquely coming under the artery, accessing the point. This should avoid injuring the neuro-vascular system(s). As sometimes seen there is slight bleeding which should not occur. Neither nerves nor vessels like being stuck with a needle. Richard In a message dated 6/17/2009 11:36:01 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, tom.verhaeghe writes: There is a possibility that there is damage to the nervus tibialis. better to refer him to a neurologist for testing, I'd say. And the patient might appreciate that you care for him and refer him to a specialist. Nerve damage is a known side-effect of acupuncture. Tom Verhaeghe Stationsplein 59 8770 Ingelmunster _www.chinese-www.chinese-ww_ (http://www.chinese-geneeskunde.be) _____ _Traditional_Traditional_<WBRTraditional_Tra_ (Chinese Medicine ) [_Traditional_Traditional_<WBRTraditional_Tra_ (Chinese Medicine ) ] On Behalf Of Fiamma Aaron woensdag 17 juni 2009 17:14 PCOM_Alumni PCOM <_alumni@pacificcollealumni_ (alumni) >; _Traditional_Traditional_<WBRTraditional_Tra_ (Chinese Medicine ) Ki 3 I have a patient who had that unpleasant electric reaction to needling at Ki 3, radiating out the bottom of his foot. The next week he told me that the foot was still hurting at times, but usually only when he was out hiking with a heavy pack (he was on a camping trip that week). I avoided Ki 3 and advised him to avoid aggravating it so it could heal. The next week he told me that that leg was starting to have numbness while he was standing on it. Could that be related? I've never heard of that happening. Thanks! Fiamma Sita Aaron, L.Ac., C.A., Dipl. O.M. Acupuncturist & Practitioner of Traditional Oriental Medicine 105 North Third Avenue, Highland Park NJ 08904 732-979-8766 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] **************Dell Days of Deals! June 15-24 - A New Deal Everyday! (http://pr.atwola.com/promoclk/100126575x1222865043x1201494942/aol?redir=http:%2\ F%2F ad.doubleclick.net%2Fclk%3B215692145%3B38015538%3Bh) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 17, 2009 Report Share Posted June 17, 2009 J It is interesting that you assume that Tom is in the USA. Next time you might consider doing a little more due diligence before making such comments about USA practitioners. Tom is in fact in Belgium and a very capable and advanced practitioner. R In a message dated 6/17/2009 1:35:58 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, JKellerLAc writes: Could you please describe the method of needling used: * depth, angle, needle size/length * was there any bleeding when the needle was removed * did you palpate for the presence of a hematoma * was the electric reaction transitory (meaning was it just a flash of sensation that then went away) or did it continue until you removed the needle? * any other details of the treatment that might be helpful to know - like, when he initially came back the following week and you avoided KI3...did you at least address the channel? is his numbness falling a particular path and does that correspond to a channel, etc. Several people have responded suggesting nerve damage and yet we don't even know the above information. We are a litigious, fear-based society (in the USA) and sometimes we respond with a CYA knee-jerk reaction. I'm NOT suggesting that is the only reason for the multiple responses for neurological referral (so please don't send replies suggesting that I think we don't care about patient safety!). I'm just saying that sometimes we run scared before getting all the facts. With the information you provided, I can't tell if he needs a referral or not. For example: If there is a hematoma at KI3 it could be putting pressure in the surrounding area, thus impinging on the nerve. If you just did a superficial insertion it is unlikely that ever reached the nerve. If the sensation was transitory, it is unlikely you reached the nerve (needling a nerve will hurt until you remove the needle and then may continue for some time after). Again, without knowing details of the treatment it is difficult to make a definitive recommendation. Personally, I think I may (MAY!) have needled KI3 on the OPPOSITE side that first time. It is possible for there to be a channel obstruction going on. It is also possible that there is nerve damage. However, even nerve damage from a needle is a very short-lived situation and is not likely to be so progressive in symptomology. So I continue to remain suspicious of what's really going on. It is also possible that if the patient believes there to be nerve damage, that he is somatacizing the experience..somatacizing the experience By all means, if you feel a referral is necessary to keep your patient safe, then do so without hesitation. I'm just suggesting that perhaps more probing is needed. (and again, I am not suggesting that anyone is talking about anything other than patient safety....wow, do I have enough disclaimers in this email...I guess we'll see...) J **************Dell Days of Deals! June 15-24 - A New Deal Everyday! (http://pr.atwola.com/promoclk/100126575x1222865043x1201494942/aol?redir=http:%2\ F%2F ad.doubleclick.net%2Fclk%3B215692145%3B38015538%3Bh) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 17, 2009 Report Share Posted June 17, 2009 I have a patient who had that unpleasant electric reaction to needling at Ki 3, radiating out the bottom of his foot. The next week he told me that the foot was still hurting at times, but usually only when he was out hiking with a heavy pack (he was on a camping trip that week). I avoided Ki 3 and advised him to avoid aggravating it so it could heal. The next week he told me that that leg was starting to have numbness while he was standing on it. Could that be related? I've never heard of that happening. Thanks! Fiamma Sita Aaron, L.Ac., C.A., Dipl. O.M. Acupuncturist & Practitioner of Traditional Oriental Medicine 105 North Third Avenue, Highland Park NJ 08904 732-979-8766 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 17, 2009 Report Share Posted June 17, 2009 There is a possibility that there is damage to the nervus tibialis. better to refer him to a neurologist for testing, I'd say. And the patient might appreciate that you care for him and refer him to a specialist. Nerve damage is a known side-effect of acupuncture. Tom Verhaeghe Stationsplein 59 8770 Ingelmunster www.chinese-geneeskunde.be _____ Chinese Medicine Chinese Medicine On Behalf Of Fiamma Aaron woensdag 17 juni 2009 17:14 PCOM_Alumni PCOM <alumni; Chinese Medicine Ki 3 I have a patient who had that unpleasant electric reaction to needling at Ki 3, radiating out the bottom of his foot. The next week he told me that the foot was still hurting at times, but usually only when he was out hiking with a heavy pack (he was on a camping trip that week). I avoided Ki 3 and advised him to avoid aggravating it so it could heal. The next week he told me that that leg was starting to have numbness while he was standing on it. Could that be related? I've never heard of that happening. Thanks! Fiamma Sita Aaron, L.Ac., C.A., Dipl. O.M. Acupuncturist & Practitioner of Traditional Oriental Medicine 105 North Third Avenue, Highland Park NJ 08904 732-979-8766 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 17, 2009 Report Share Posted June 17, 2009 It does appear that they share a similar pathway. Several nerves run through the area. A referral to a neurologist might be prudent, especially if it continues to worsen or remain. Quicker action would be the best thing for a neurological problem. Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc alumni; Chinese Medicine fiammasita Wed, 17 Jun 2009 11:13:47 -0400 Ki 3 I have a patient who had that unpleasant electric reaction to needling at Ki 3, radiating out the bottom of his foot. The next week he told me that the foot was still hurting at times, but usually only when he was out hiking with a heavy pack (he was on a camping trip that week). I avoided Ki 3 and advised him to avoid aggravating it so it could heal. The next week he told me that that leg was starting to have numbness while he was standing on it. Could that be related? I've never heard of that happening. Thanks! Fiamma Sita Aaron, L.Ac., C.A., Dipl. O.M. Acupuncturist & Practitioner of Traditional Oriental Medicine 105 North Third Avenue, Highland Park NJ 08904 732-979-8766 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 17, 2009 Report Share Posted June 17, 2009 Could you please describe the method of needling used: * depth, angle, needle size/length * was there any bleeding when the needle was removed * did you palpate for the presence of a hematoma * was the electric reaction transitory (meaning was it just a flash of sensation that then went away) or did it continue until you removed the needle? * any other details of the treatment that might be helpful to know - like, when he initially came back the following week and you avoided KI3...did you at least address the channel? is his numbness falling a particular path and does that correspond to a channel, etc. Several people have responded suggesting nerve damage and yet we don't even know the above information. We are a litigious, fear-based society (in the USA) and sometimes we respond with a CYA knee-jerk reaction. I'm NOT suggesting that is the only reason for the multiple responses for neurological referral (so please don't send replies suggesting that I think we don't care about patient safety!). I'm just saying that sometimes we run scared before getting all the facts. With the information you provided, I can't tell if he needs a referral or not. For example: If there is a hematoma at KI3 it could be putting pressure in the surrounding area, thus impinging on the nerve. If you just did a superficial insertion it is unlikely that ever reached the nerve. If the sensation was transitory, it is unlikely you reached the nerve (needling a nerve will hurt until you remove the needle and then may continue for some time after). Again, without knowing details of the treatment it is difficult to make a definitive recommendation. Personally, I think I may (MAY!) have needled KI3 on the OPPOSITE side that first time. It is possible for there to be a channel obstruction going on. It is also possible that there is nerve damage. However, even nerve damage from a needle is a very short-lived situation and is not likely to be so progressive in symptomology. So I continue to remain suspicious of what's really going on. It is also possible that if the patient believes there to be nerve damage, that he is somatacizing the experience...keep digging/probbing. By all means, if you feel a referral is necessary to keep your patient safe, then do so without hesitation. I'm just suggesting that perhaps more probing is needed. (and again, I am not suggesting that anyone is talking about anything other than patient safety....wow, do I have enough disclaimers in this email...I guess we'll see...) J ________ Joy Keller, LAc, Dipl.OM Ramona Acupuncture & Integrative Medicine Clinic Phone: (760) 654-1040 Fax: (760) 654-4019 www.RamonaAcupuncture.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 17, 2009 Report Share Posted June 17, 2009 I agree with Joy here. Just give us some more facts. My first reaction when I read your post was, I have had an electrical charge go out of the bottom of my foot on KI3 and never experienced any after effects. I needle the point pretty shallow, as I believe my acupuncturist did. I would not jump to the neurologist referral yet. Who knows they might give him a nerve conduction test that will really send a jolt down the nerve. He may be focused on KI 3 as the problem. A long hiking trip may have bothered his leg. Anne Anne C. Crowley, L.Ac., Dipl.Ac. www.LaPlataAcupuncture.com - " Joy Keller " <JKellerLAc " Traditional " <Chinese Medicine > Wednesday, June 17, 2009 1:17:39 PM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern Re: Ki 3 Could you please describe the method of needling used: * depth, angle, needle size/length * was there any bleeding when the needle was removed * did you palpate for the presence of a hematoma * was the electric reaction transitory (meaning was it just a flash of sensation that then went away) or did it continue until you removed the needle? * any other details of the treatment that might be helpful to know - like, when he initially came back the following week and you avoided KI3...did you at least address the channel? is his numbness falling a particular path and does that correspond to a channel, etc. Several people have responded suggesting nerve damage and yet we don't even know the above information. We are a litigious, fear-based society (in the USA) and sometimes we respond with a CYA knee-jerk reaction. I'm NOT suggesting that is the only reason for the multiple responses for neurological referral (so please don't send replies suggesting that I think we don't care about patient safety!). I'm just saying that sometimes we run scared before getting all the facts. With the information you provided, I can't tell if he needs a referral or not. For example: If there is a hematoma at KI3 it could be putting pressure in the surrounding area, thus impinging on the nerve. If you just did a superficial insertion it is unlikely that ever reached the nerve. If the sensation was transitory, it is unlikely you reached the nerve (needling a nerve will hurt until you remove the needle and then may continue for some time after). Again, without knowing details of the treatment it is difficult to make a definitive recommendation. Personally, I think I may (MAY!) have needled KI3 on the OPPOSITE side that first time. It is possible for there to be a channel obstruction going on. It is also possible that there is nerve damage. However, even nerve damage from a needle is a very short-lived situation and is not likely to be so progressive in symptomology. So I continue to remain suspicious of what's really going on. It is also possible that if the patient believes there to be nerve damage, that he is somatacizing the experience...keep digging/probbing. By all means, if you feel a referral is necessary to keep your patient safe, then do so without hesitation. I'm just suggesting that perhaps more probing is needed. (and again, I am not suggesting that anyone is talking about anything other than patient safety....wow, do I have enough disclaimers in this email...I guess we'll see...) J ________ Joy Keller, LAc, Dipl.OM Ramona Acupuncture & Integrative Medicine Clinic Phone: (760) 654-1040 Fax: (760) 654-4019 www.RamonaAcupuncture.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 17, 2009 Report Share Posted June 17, 2009 Acudoc11, It is replies like this that make me not want to participate in discussion groups at all...why do you think I qualified my statement by putting the " (USA) " in parenthesis in the first place - because I was specifically not referring to anyone outside of the USA regarding that particular statement... Also, I never once denigrated any single practitioner in my reply. Nor did I make any assumptions. I was simply offering a point of view and thought I made every effort to disclaim any reference to anyone's motives, skill, etc. That's all I have to say on that subject. J On Wed, Jun 17, 2009 at 10:48 AM, <acudoc11 wrote: > It is interesting that you assume that Tom is in the USA. > Next time you might consider doing a little more due diligence before > making such comments about USA practitioners. > Tom is in fact in Belgium and a very capable and advanced practitioner. > > R > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 17, 2009 Report Share Posted June 17, 2009 - Belgium? Perhaps the patient has flem in the channels? sorry, couldn't resist that one! Daniel -- In Chinese Medicine , acudoc11 wrote: > > J > > It is interesting that you assume that Tom is in the USA. > Next time you might consider doing a little more due diligence before > making such comments about USA practitioners. > Tom is in fact in Belgium and a very capable and advanced practitioner. > > R > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 17, 2009 Report Share Posted June 17, 2009 joy: sending this to you privately: he was way out of line here with this comment. i'm with you on the discussion groups, the personal attacks denigrate and waste the benefits of the discussion. k On Wed, Jun 17, 2009 at 3:16 PM, Joy Keller <JKellerLAc wrote: > > > Acudoc11, > > It is replies like this that make me not want to participate in discussion > groups at all...why do you think I qualified my statement by putting the > " (USA) " in parenthesis in the first place - because I was specifically not > referring to anyone outside of the USA regarding that particular > statement... > > Also, I never once denigrated any single practitioner in my reply. Nor did > I > make any assumptions. I was simply offering a point of view and thought I > made every effort to disclaim any reference to anyone's motives, skill, > etc. > > That's all I have to say on that subject. > > J > > > On Wed, Jun 17, 2009 at 10:48 AM, <acudoc11 <acudoc11%40aol.com>> > wrote: > > > It is interesting that you assume that Tom is in the USA. > > Next time you might consider doing a little more due diligence before > > making such comments about USA practitioners. > > Tom is in fact in Belgium and a very capable and advanced practitioner. > > > > R > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 17, 2009 Report Share Posted June 17, 2009 Hi Joy. I found your post useful. Thanks, Hugo ________________________________ Hugo Ramiro http://middlemedicine.wordpress.com http://www.chinesemedicaltherapies.org ________________________________ Joy Keller <JKellerLAc Chinese Medicine Wednesday, 17 June, 2009 13:17:39 Re: Ki 3 Could you please describe the method of needling used: * depth, angle, needle size/length * was there any bleeding when the needle was removed * did you palpate for the presence of a hematoma * was the electric reaction transitory (meaning was it just a flash of sensation that then went away) or did it continue until you removed the needle? * any other details of the treatment that might be helpful to know - like, when he initially came back the following week and you avoided KI3...did you at least address the channel? is his numbness falling a particular path and does that correspond to a channel, etc. Several people have responded suggesting nerve damage and yet we don't even know the above information. We are a litigious, fear-based society (in the USA) and sometimes we respond with a CYA knee-jerk reaction. I'm NOT suggesting that is the only reason for the multiple responses for neurological referral (so please don't send replies suggesting that I think we don't care about patient safety!). I'm just saying that sometimes we run scared before getting all the facts. With the information you provided, I can't tell if he needs a referral or not. For example: If there is a hematoma at KI3 it could be putting pressure in the surrounding area, thus impinging on the nerve. If you just did a superficial insertion it is unlikely that ever reached the nerve. If the sensation was transitory, it is unlikely you reached the nerve (needling a nerve will hurt until you remove the needle and then may continue for some time after). Again, without knowing details of the treatment it is difficult to make a definitive recommendation. Personally, I think I may (MAY!) have needled KI3 on the OPPOSITE side that first time. It is possible for there to be a channel obstruction going on. It is also possible that there is nerve damage. However, even nerve damage from a needle is a very short-lived situation and is not likely to be so progressive in symptomology. So I continue to remain suspicious of what's really going on. It is also possible that if the patient believes there to be nerve damage, that he is somatacizing the experience.. .keep digging/probbing. By all means, if you feel a referral is necessary to keep your patient safe, then do so without hesitation. I'm just suggesting that perhaps more probing is needed. (and again, I am not suggesting that anyone is talking about anything other than patient safety....wow, do I have enough disclaimers in this email...I guess we'll see...) J ____________ _________ _________ _________ ___ Joy Keller, LAc, Dipl.OM Ramona Acupuncture & Integrative Medicine Clinic Phone: (760) 654-1040 Fax: (760) 654-4019 www.RamonaAcupunctu re.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 17, 2009 Report Share Posted June 17, 2009 Joy, I did not feel denigrated by your post at all and I had seen the parentheses. Misunderstandings happen with emails all the time. Let's forget this and please everyone keep contributing. Tom Verhaeghe Stationsplein 59 8770 Ingelmunster www.chinese-geneeskunde.be _____ Chinese Medicine Chinese Medicine On Behalf Of Joy Keller woensdag 17 juni 2009 21:17 Chinese Medicine Re: Ki 3 Acudoc11, It is replies like this that make me not want to participate in discussion groups at all...why do you think I qualified my statement by putting the " (USA) " in parenthesis in the first place - because I was specifically not referring to anyone outside of the USA regarding that particular statement... Also, I never once denigrated any single practitioner in my reply. Nor did I make any assumptions. I was simply offering a point of view and thought I made every effort to disclaim any reference to anyone's motives, skill, etc. That's all I have to say on that subject. J On Wed, Jun 17, 2009 at 10:48 AM, <acudoc11 (AT) aol (DOT) <acudoc11%40aol.com> com> wrote: > It is interesting that you assume that Tom is in the USA. > Next time you might consider doing a little more due diligence before > making such comments about USA practitioners. > Tom is in fact in Belgium and a very capable and advanced practitioner. > > R > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 17, 2009 Report Share Posted June 17, 2009 Since there is no treatment for this i do not see the urgency for a referral to a neurologist. A laser is the best treatment for this. If the patient is developing a neuralgia (pain) then a referral and perhaps a local steroid would make sense Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 17, 2009 Report Share Posted June 17, 2009 There is something much better than laser for this problem and, indeed, most neuropathies. This is the Russian SCENAR and it's effects are immediate, not 5 or 10 treatments down the road. Don Snow, DAOM, MPH Chinese Medicine alonmarcus Wed, 17 Jun 2009 14:22:56 -0700 Re: Ki 3 Since there is no treatment for this i do not see the urgency for a referral to a neurologist. A laser is the best treatment for this. If the patient is developing a neuralgia (pain) then a referral and perhaps a local steroid would make sense Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 18, 2009 Report Share Posted June 18, 2009 I have a patient who had that unpleasant electric reaction to needling at Ki 3, radiating out the bottom of his foot. The next week he told me that the foot was still hurting at times, but usually only when he was out hiking with a heavy pack (he was on a camping trip that week). I avoided Ki 3 and advised him to avoid aggravating it so it could heal. The next week he told me that that leg was starting to have numbness while he was standing on it. Could that be related? I've never heard of that happening. Thanks! Fiamma Sita Aaron, Hi Fiamma, I think it happens with everyone occasionally who uses insertion type acupuncture - that a point will remain sore for a patient. When this happens I have the patient come back in as soon as possible and I do about 10 minutes of indirect moxa with the moxa pole on the area. I try to get feed back as I go along as to how it feels. One thing that can happen is that a muscle spasms around a nerve and does not release. It is possible that the stagnation of this builds over time. The moxa has worked every time. Once I had to do it twice with someone who had pain at P6. Hope this helps Sharon Sharon Weizenbaum 86 Henry Street Amherst, MA 01002 www.whitepinehealingarts.com sweiz Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 18, 2009 Report Share Posted June 18, 2009 I learn that in school too. But to use direct thread moxa on prolong pain after needle. Never used it though. Yuly Chinese Medicine , sharon weizenbaum <sweiz wrote: > > I have a patient who had that unpleasant electric reaction to > needling at Ki 3, radiating out the bottom of his foot. The next > week he told me that the foot was still hurting at times, but usually > only when he was out hiking with a heavy pack (he was on a camping > trip that week). I avoided Ki 3 and advised him to avoid aggravating > it so it could heal. The next week he told me that that leg was > starting to have numbness while he was standing on it. Could that be > related? I've never heard of that happening. > > Thanks! > > Fiamma Sita Aaron, > > > Hi Fiamma, > > I think it happens with everyone occasionally who uses insertion type > acupuncture - that a point will remain sore for a patient. When this > happens I have the patient come back in as soon as possible and I do > about 10 minutes of indirect moxa with the moxa pole on the area. I > try to get feed back as I go along as to how it feels. One thing that > can happen is that a muscle spasms around a nerve and does not > release. It is possible that the stagnation of this builds over > time. The moxa has worked every time. Once I had to do it twice with > someone who had pain at P6. > > Hope this helps > > Sharon > > > > Sharon Weizenbaum > 86 Henry Street > Amherst, MA 01002 > www.whitepinehealingarts.com > sweiz Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 18, 2009 Report Share Posted June 18, 2009 Don, can you elaborate on this SCENAR? Thanks- Fiamma Fiamma Sita Aaron, L.Ac., C.A., Dipl. O.M. Acupuncturist & Practitioner of Traditional Oriental Medicine 105 North Third Avenue, Highland Park NJ 08904 732-979-8766 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 18, 2009 Report Share Posted June 18, 2009 Chinese Medicine , " Daniel Schulman " <daniel.schulman wrote: ....flem in the channels? Daniel, that's magnificent... up there with a well-loved and respected Chinese-born and educated professor, whose pronunciations and thinking gifted us with: 'WassaMainComplaint' 'lingerling heat' and 'forgiveness' instead of 'forgetfulness' [our professor could never remember to say or pronounce 'forgetfulness' any other way] A new thread emerges? " mispronunciations, homonyms, and plays-upon-words, which make perfect sense, and sometimes even serve to help us find new layers of meaning " Margi http://margihealing.wordpress.com/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 19, 2009 Report Share Posted June 19, 2009 Fiamma, Thanks for your post. We all have had a patient sometime who has not had the perfect reaction to a needle. It's refreshing to see your honesty. No matter what our competence, that can happen to anyone and it does. K On Thu, Jun 18, 2009 at 3:51 PM, margi.macdonald <margi.macdonaldwrote: > > > --- In Chinese Medicine <Chinese Medicine%40yaho\ ogroups.com>, > " Daniel Schulman " <daniel.schulman wrote: > > ...flem in the channels? > > Daniel, > that's magnificent... up there with a well-loved and respected Chinese-born > and educated professor, whose pronunciations and thinking gifted us with: > > 'WassaMainComplaint' > > 'lingerling heat' > > and > > 'forgiveness' instead of 'forgetfulness' [our professor could never > remember to say or pronounce 'forgetfulness' any other way] > > A new thread emerges? > " mispronunciations, homonyms, and plays-upon-words, which make perfect > sense, and sometimes even serve to help us find new layers of meaning " > > Margi > http://margihealing.wordpress.com/ > > > -- Turtle Island Integrative Health TCM Review director CA State Board Prep Courses www.tcmreview.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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