Guest guest Posted June 8, 2009 Report Share Posted June 8, 2009 a prospective patient is calling about Chlamydia tx with tcm. he has a strong + risk factor. sx exhibited is burning urination. he's interested in an herbal approach. wondering if folks have found ch herbs to be effective in tx Chlamydia in males? are there any particular herbal protocols you might suggest? appreciate your feedback. kath -- Kath Bartlett, LAc, MS, BA UCLA Oriental Medicine Experienced, Dedicated, Effective Kath's Blog about , Healthy Living & Spirituality: http://acukath.blogspot.com/ Flying Dragon Liniment: Effective pain relief for muscles & joints Formulated by Kath Bartlett, Traditional Chinese Herbalist Available at Asheville Center for : www.FlyingDragonLiniment.com Greenlife Grocery - Asheville, NC and from the following supply companies: Kamwo Herbal Pharmacy: NY - Chinatown https://www.kamwo.com/shop/product.php?productid=17442 & cat=0 & page=1 Golden Needle Acupuncture, Herbal & Medical Supply - Candler, NC http://www.goldenneedleonline.com/index.php?page=categories & category=14 & vendor= & \ product=5554 & pg= Asheville Center For 70 Woodfin Place, Suite West Wing Two Asheville, NC 28801 828.258.2777 kbartlett www.AcupunctureAsheville.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 8, 2009 Report Share Posted June 8, 2009 I have tried to treat one case and was able to slow it down but no cure. Used high dosage and frequency. I also told them its not fair to the partner to put them at risk for a partial treatment. symptoms may be gone but perhaps not all the bacteria. I recommended the antibiotics. 2 week course and you are done....follow up with probiotics and condoms... Be well, Bob Robert Linde, AP, RH Professional Herbalists Training Program Acupuncture & Herbal Therapies 901 Central Ave St. Petersburg, FL 33705 www.acuherbals.com 727-551-0857 --- On Mon, 6/8/09, wrote: efficacy of Chlamydia tx with TCM? " PCOM Alumni " <alumni Cc: " TCM List " <Chinese Traditional Medicine > Monday, June 8, 2009, 11:25 AM a prospective patient is calling about Chlamydia tx with tcm. he has a strong + risk factor. sx exhibited is burning urination. he's interested in an herbal approach. wondering if folks have found ch herbs to be effective in tx Chlamydia in males? are there any particular herbal protocols you might suggest? appreciate your feedback. kath -- Oriental Medicine Experienced, Dedicated, Effective Kath's Blog about , Healthy Living & Spirituality: http://acukath. blogspot. com/ Flying Dragon Liniment: Effective pain relief for muscles & joints Formulated by Kath Bartlett, Traditional Chinese Herbalist Available at Asheville Center for : www.FlyingDragonLin iment.com Greenlife Grocery - Asheville, NC and from the following supply companies: Kamwo Herbal Pharmacy: NY - Chinatown https://www. kamwo.com/ shop/product. php?productid= 17442 & cat= 0 & page=1 Golden Needle Acupuncture, Herbal & Medical Supply - Candler, NC http://www.goldenne edleonline. com/index. php?page= categories & category= 14 & vendor= & product= 5554 & pg= Asheville Center For 70 Woodfin Place, Suite West Wing Two Asheville, NC 28801 828.258.2777 kbartlett@Acupunctu reAsheville. com www.AcupunctureAshe ville.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 9, 2009 Report Share Posted June 9, 2009 We have seen and treated tons of cases like this in our outpatient clinic at the dept of urology, the affiliated hosptial of our U of tcm. Patients desire for herbal medicine as courses of antibiotics or anti-bacteria have been given by western medicine doc but to no avail. It is because it is non-bacterial infection. As tcm doctors, we do not discuss bacteria or virus but patterns. It is not very difficult to treat. However, as there are a variety of patterns so it is difficult to suggest any protocols. Medicinals of heat-draining is always included as my base formula. SUNG, Yuk-ming Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 9, 2009 Report Share Posted June 9, 2009 Just wanted to add a perspective/comment from the western medicine world, as I'm straddling both (I'm a nurse in a clinic with a strong focus in treating sexually transmitted infections, as well as an acupuncture student). Standard treatment here is doxycycline 100 mg twice a day for one week or azithromycin 1 gram, one time dose for patient AND partner(s). It works best if they are treated at the same time; with antibiotics, they need to abstain for one week after treatment is completed. Sounds like your patient is diagnosing himself based on symptoms (and his previous experience with this infection?) I'd strongly encourage him to get tested. If he declines antibiotic treatment, he should be re-tested about 4 weeks after completing whatever treatment course you recommend (while abstaining/using condoms scrupulously 100% in the meantime). Re-testing too soon can give a false positive result, as the bacteria's DNA can linger even after the chlamydia is no longer active. And, again, he needs to assure that any partner(s) are informed and treated. I'd be cautious with this in view of the fact that chlamydia is a transmissable, reportable infection that, untreated has the potential to cause sterility in men and women. If he tells a partner that he's been treated and the herbal tx is not effective - or doesn;t stick with it long enough - might that make you liable in some way for long term complications to the patient or current and future partners? (Of course, people sometimes simply lie to their partners and say they've been treated when they haven't been, but that's not the provider's responsibility). It might be simpler on many levels for him to treat this allopathically while focusing on herbal support (and risk reduction counselling) to reduce the likelihood of becoming infected again. best of luck, Kol Goodstein --- On Mon, 6/8/09, Bob Linde, AP, Herbalist <boblindeherbalist wrote: Bob Linde, AP, Herbalist <boblindeherbalist Re: efficacy of Chlamydia tx with TCM? To: Chinese Medicine Monday, June 8, 2009, 5:44 PM I have tried to treat one case and was able to slow it down but no cure. Used high dosage and frequency. I also told them its not fair to the partner to put them at risk for a partial treatment. symptoms may be gone but perhaps not all the bacteria. I recommended the antibiotics. 2 week course and you are done....follow up with probiotics and condoms... Be well, Bob Robert Linde, AP, RH Professional Herbalists Training Program Acupuncture & Herbal Therapies 901 Central Ave St. Petersburg, FL 33705 www.acuherbals. com 727-551-0857 --- On Mon, 6/8/09, <acukath (AT) gmail (DOT) com> wrote: <acukath (AT) gmail (DOT) com> efficacy of Chlamydia tx with TCM? " PCOM Alumni " <alumni@pacificcolle ge.edu> Cc: " TCM List " <traditional_ chinese_medicine > Monday, June 8, 2009, 11:25 AM a prospective patient is calling about Chlamydia tx with tcm. he has a strong + risk factor. sx exhibited is burning urination. he's interested in an herbal approach. wondering if folks have found ch herbs to be effective in tx Chlamydia in males? are there any particular herbal protocols you might suggest? appreciate your feedback. kath -- Oriental Medicine Experienced, Dedicated, Effective Kath's Blog about , Healthy Living & Spirituality: http://acukath. blogspot. com/ Flying Dragon Liniment: Effective pain relief for muscles & joints Formulated by Kath Bartlett, Traditional Chinese Herbalist Available at Asheville Center for : www.FlyingDragonLin iment.com Greenlife Grocery - Asheville, NC and from the following supply companies: Kamwo Herbal Pharmacy: NY - Chinatown https://www. kamwo.com/ shop/product. php?productid= 17442 & cat= 0 & page=1 Golden Needle Acupuncture, Herbal & Medical Supply - Candler, NC http://www.goldenne edleonline. com/index. php?page= categories & category= 14 & vendor= & product= 5554 & pg= Asheville Center For 70 Woodfin Place, Suite West Wing Two Asheville, NC 28801 828.258.2777 kbartlett@Acupunctu reAsheville. com www.AcupunctureAshe ville.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 9, 2009 Report Share Posted June 9, 2009 Chinese Medicine , " Bob Linde, AP, Herbalist " <boblindeherbalist wrote: > " I have tried to treat one case and was able to slow it down but no cure. Used high dosage and frequency. I also told them its not fair to the partner to put them at risk for a partial treatment. symptoms may be gone but perhaps not all the bacteria. I recommended the antibiotics. 2 week course and you are done....follow up with probiotics and condoms... " > > Be well, > Bob Bob makes a sound recommendation there. In a not unrelated case, I once treated cystitis in a woman who had the whole gamut of signs and symptoms, including frank blood in the urine. She had elected not to see a doctor, wishing to avoid antibiotic Rx. We used high-dose TCM herbs for the pattern, urinary alkalizer, acupuncture. All signs and symptoms resolved, yet after 7-10 days she was very tired, and starting to get some lumbar pain. It was time to see the Doctor, and have her urine cultured. No blood, or white cells in the urine, but a heavy infection with E.coli, and the impending risk of kidney infection. Kath, your question raises important issues for us all, and Bob correctly pointed out the risk to your client's partner. Chlamydia causes infertility in women. Full stop. It is a pernicious organism; its presence is often unknown, and undetected. It is appropriate to practice TCM, and treat according to TCM pattern in any person who presents to us. It is never appropriate for us to imagine that TCM can do 'everything', or for us to suggest to people, that it can. This is not a comment directed at anyone here, it is a generic statement. Margi Macdonald http://margihealing.wordpress.com/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 10, 2009 Report Share Posted June 10, 2009 I would agree...also not just condoms but I believe it can be passed orally as well...so during tx best to abstain. Be well, Bob Robert Linde, AP, RH Professional Herbalists Training Program Acupuncture & Herbal Therapies 901 Central Ave St. Petersburg, FL 33705 www.acuherbals.com 727-551-0857 --- On Tue, 6/9/09, fernandkol <fernandkol wrote: fernandkol <fernandkol Re: efficacy of Chlamydia tx with TCM? Chinese Medicine Tuesday, June 9, 2009, 12:00 PM Just wanted to add a perspective/ comment from the western medicine world, as I'm straddling both (I'm a nurse in a clinic with a strong focus in treating sexually transmitted infections, as well as an acupuncture student). Standard treatment here is doxycycline 100 mg twice a day for one week or azithromycin 1 gram, one time dose for patient AND partner(s). It works best if they are treated at the same time; with antibiotics, they need to abstain for one week after treatment is completed. Sounds like your patient is diagnosing himself based on symptoms (and his previous experience with this infection?) I'd strongly encourage him to get tested. If he declines antibiotic treatment, he should be re-tested about 4 weeks after completing whatever treatment course you recommend (while abstaining/using condoms scrupulously 100% in the meantime). Re-testing too soon can give a false positive result, as the bacteria's DNA can linger even after the chlamydia is no longer active. And, again, he needs to assure that any partner(s) are informed and treated. I'd be cautious with this in view of the fact that chlamydia is a transmissable, reportable infection that, untreated has the potential to cause sterility in men and women. If he tells a partner that he's been treated and the herbal tx is not effective - or doesn;t stick with it long enough - might that make you liable in some way for long term complications to the patient or current and future partners? (Of course, people sometimes simply lie to their partners and say they've been treated when they haven't been, but that's not the provider's responsibility) . It might be simpler on many levels for him to treat this allopathically while focusing on herbal support (and risk reduction counselling) to reduce the likelihood of becoming infected again. best of luck, Kol Goodstein --- On Mon, 6/8/09, Bob Linde, AP, Herbalist <boblindeherbalist@ > wrote: Bob Linde, AP, Herbalist <boblindeherbalist@ > Re: efficacy of Chlamydia tx with TCM? To: Traditional_ Chinese_Medicine Monday, June 8, 2009, 5:44 PM I have tried to treat one case and was able to slow it down but no cure. Used high dosage and frequency. I also told them its not fair to the partner to put them at risk for a partial treatment. symptoms may be gone but perhaps not all the bacteria. I recommended the antibiotics. 2 week course and you are done....follow up with probiotics and condoms... Be well, Bob Robert Linde, AP, RH Professional Herbalists Training Program Acupuncture & Herbal Therapies 901 Central Ave St. Petersburg, FL 33705 www.acuherbals. com 727-551-0857 --- On Mon, 6/8/09, <acukath (AT) gmail (DOT) com> wrote: <acukath (AT) gmail (DOT) com> efficacy of Chlamydia tx with TCM? " PCOM Alumni " <alumni@pacificcoll e ge.edu> Cc: " TCM List " <traditional_ chinese_medicine > Monday, June 8, 2009, 11:25 AM a prospective patient is calling about Chlamydia tx with tcm. he has a strong + risk factor. sx exhibited is burning urination. he's interested in an herbal approach. wondering if folks have found ch herbs to be effective in tx Chlamydia in males? are there any particular herbal protocols you might suggest? appreciate your feedback. kath -- Oriental Medicine Experienced, Dedicated, Effective Kath's Blog about , Healthy Living & Spirituality: http://acukath. blogspot. com/ Flying Dragon Liniment: Effective pain relief for muscles & joints Formulated by Kath Bartlett, Traditional Chinese Herbalist Available at Asheville Center for : www.FlyingDragonLin iment.com Greenlife Grocery - Asheville, NC and from the following supply companies: Kamwo Herbal Pharmacy: NY - Chinatown https://www. kamwo.com/ shop/product. php?productid= 17442 & cat= 0 & page=1 Golden Needle Acupuncture, Herbal & Medical Supply - Candler, NC http://www.goldenne edleonline. com/index. php?page= categories & category= 14 & vendor= & product= 5554 & pg= Asheville Center For 70 Woodfin Place, Suite West Wing Two Asheville, NC 28801 828.258.2777 kbartlett@Acupunctu reAsheville. com www.AcupunctureAshe ville.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 10, 2009 Report Share Posted June 10, 2009 i appreciate everyone's feedback and want to point out that folks have a tendency to jump to conclusions without having the facts. i intentionally left out many details about the method of contraction to avoid a tangent discussion: i wanted to focus on tx. however, because there are so many well meaning lectures here about getting tested, i've decided to include more info to head more of them off at the pass. the prospective patient's partner is being tx for chlamydia. they had unprotected sex prior to learning of her dx. the prospective patient is having financial problems, and the $150 test is a significant burden. he would understandably rather allocate his scarce resources into tx. i have strongly encouraged him to get tested, and he said that he will in a couple of weeks. he has spent a significant amount of time/nrg rebuilding his intestinal flora, and wants to avoid antibiotic therapy, if possible. i told him prior to commencing tx i wanted to research the matter to see whether tcm could offer an effective tx option to antibiotics. i appreciate everyone's well meaning concern here, but let me put your minds at ease. i am fully aware of the importance of being tested and of the effectiveness of antibiotic therapy. i am exploring tcm options at the prospective patients request. could we please focus this discussion on tcm tx? appreciate it. kath On Tue, Jun 9, 2009 at 6:26 PM, margi.macdonald <margi.macdonaldwrote: > > > --- In Chinese Medicine <Chinese Medicine%40yaho\ ogroups.com>, > " Bob Linde, AP, Herbalist " <boblindeherbalist wrote: > > > " I have tried to treat one case and was able to slow it down but no cure. > Used high dosage and frequency. I also told them its not fair to the partner > to put them at risk for a partial treatment. symptoms may be gone but > perhaps not all the bacteria. I recommended the antibiotics. 2 week course > and you are done....follow up with probiotics and condoms... " > > > > Be well, > > Bob > > Bob makes a sound recommendation there. > In a not unrelated case, I once treated cystitis in a woman who had the > whole gamut of signs and symptoms, including frank blood in the urine. > She had elected not to see a doctor, wishing to avoid antibiotic Rx. > > We used high-dose TCM herbs for the pattern, urinary alkalizer, > acupuncture. > All signs and symptoms resolved, yet after 7-10 days she was very tired, > and starting to get some lumbar pain. > It was time to see the Doctor, and have her urine cultured. > No blood, or white cells in the urine, but a heavy infection with E.coli, > and the impending risk of kidney infection. > > Kath, your question raises important issues for us all, and Bob correctly > pointed out the risk to your client's partner. > > Chlamydia causes infertility in women. > Full stop. > It is a pernicious organism; its presence is often unknown, and undetected. > > It is appropriate to practice TCM, and treat according to TCM pattern in > any person who presents to us. > > It is never appropriate for us to imagine that TCM can do 'everything', or > for us to suggest to people, that it can. > This is not a comment directed at anyone here, it is a generic statement. > > Margi Macdonald > > http://margihealing.wordpress.com/ > > > -- Kath Bartlett, LAc, MS, BA UCLA Oriental Medicine Experienced, Dedicated, Effective Kath's Blog about , Healthy Living & Spirituality: http://acukath.blogspot.com/ Flying Dragon Liniment: Effective pain relief for muscles & joints Formulated by Kath Bartlett, Traditional Chinese Herbalist Available at Asheville Center for : www.FlyingDragonLiniment.com Greenlife Grocery - Asheville, NC and from the following supply companies: Kamwo Herbal Pharmacy: NY - Chinatown https://www.kamwo.com/shop/product.php?productid=17442 & cat=0 & page=1 Golden Needle Acupuncture, Herbal & Medical Supply - Candler, NC http://www.goldenneedleonline.com/index.php?page=categories & category=14 & vendor= & \ product=5554 & pg= Asheville Center For 70 Woodfin Place, Suite West Wing Two Asheville, NC 28801 828.258.2777 kbartlett www.AcupunctureAsheville.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 10, 2009 Report Share Posted June 10, 2009 Hi all and Kath: --Kath- i appreciate everyone's feedback and want to point out that folks have a tendency to jump to conclusions without having the facts. --- I find this statement to be unfair. My point of view is that if a full case study is not presented, then people will *necessarily* jump to conclusions. I know that many senior practitioners on this list will nto offer their experience and expertise for several reasons, two of which I feel are very relevant right now: 1. Cases are presented innapropriately. We seldom get a full picture of the 8 principle diagnotics, ten questions, tongue and pulse readings. It takes time, I know, but... 2. There is (almost?) never follow-up. Senior practitioners may feel that their advice flies off into a black hole. Presenters need to follow up with the list. Everyone learns and senior practitioners know that they are not wasting their time. I always hope that this forum can become more and more professional and useful, that it can, in some way, take a role similar to hospital rounds, or in-clinic presentations. For that to happen, we need to *take the time* to produce quality presentations that people reading an email can be confident of extracting information from. I know that I also have difficulty putting the time and effort into writing a case report brief for the forum, but I continue to feel that there is untapped potential in this activity. And let's all remember, that for us to do TCM, we need the 8 principle diagnostics, the ten questions and the tongue and pulse readings; we will *necessarily* be limited to lesser states if the presentation quality is not up to par. Thank you for the reminder Kath. One of my case reports will be coming up and I hope I can get some feedback on it. Thanks everybody, Hugo ________________________________ Hugo Ramiro http://middlemedicine.wordpress.com http://www.chinesemedicaltherapies.org ________________________________ " " Chinese Medicine Wednesday, 10 June, 2009 12:16:29 Re: efficacy of Chlamydia tx with TCM? i intentionally left out many details about the method of contraction to avoid a tangent discussion: i wanted to focus on tx. however, because there are so many well meaning lectures here about getting tested, i've decided to include more info to head more of them off at the pass. the prospective patient's partner is being tx for chlamydia. they had unprotected sex prior to learning of her dx. the prospective patient is having financial problems, and the $150 test is a significant burden. he would understandably rather allocate his scarce resources into tx. i have strongly encouraged him to get tested, and he said that he will in a couple of weeks. he has spent a significant amount of time/nrg rebuilding his intestinal flora, and wants to avoid antibiotic therapy, if possible. i told him prior to commencing tx i wanted to research the matter to see whether tcm could offer an effective tx option to antibiotics. i appreciate everyone's well meaning concern here, but let me put your minds at ease. i am fully aware of the importance of being tested and of the effectiveness of antibiotic therapy. i am exploring tcm options at the prospective patients request. could we please focus this discussion on tcm tx? appreciate it. kath On Tue, Jun 9, 2009 at 6:26 PM, margi.macdonald <margi.macdonald@ gmail.com>wrote: > > > Traditional_ Chinese_Medicine <Traditional_ Chinese_Medicine %40. com>, > " Bob Linde, AP, Herbalist " <boblindeherbalist@ ...> wrote: > > > " I have tried to treat one case and was able to slow it down but no cure. > Used high dosage and frequency. I also told them its not fair to the partner > to put them at risk for a partial treatment. symptoms may be gone but > perhaps not all the bacteria. I recommended the antibiotics. 2 week course > and you are done....follow up with probiotics and condoms... " > > > > Be well, > > Bob > > Bob makes a sound recommendation there. > In a not unrelated case, I once treated cystitis in a woman who had the > whole gamut of signs and symptoms, including frank blood in the urine. > She had elected not to see a doctor, wishing to avoid antibiotic Rx. > > We used high-dose TCM herbs for the pattern, urinary alkalizer, > acupuncture. > All signs and symptoms resolved, yet after 7-10 days she was very tired, > and starting to get some lumbar pain. > It was time to see the Doctor, and have her urine cultured. > No blood, or white cells in the urine, but a heavy infection with E.coli, > and the impending risk of kidney infection. > > Kath, your question raises important issues for us all, and Bob correctly > pointed out the risk to your client's partner. > > Chlamydia causes infertility in women. > Full stop. > It is a pernicious organism; its presence is often unknown, and undetected. > > It is appropriate to practice TCM, and treat according to TCM pattern in > any person who presents to us. > > It is never appropriate for us to imagine that TCM can do 'everything' , or > for us to suggest to people, that it can. > This is not a comment directed at anyone here, it is a generic statement. > > Margi Macdonald > > http://margihealing .wordpress. com/ > > > -- Kath Bartlett, LAc, MS, BA UCLA Oriental Medicine Experienced, Dedicated, Effective Kath's Blog about , Healthy Living & Spirituality: http://acukath. blogspot. com/ Flying Dragon Liniment: Effective pain relief for muscles & joints Formulated by Kath Bartlett, Traditional Chinese Herbalist Available at Asheville Center for : www.FlyingDragonLin iment.com Greenlife Grocery - Asheville, NC and from the following supply companies: Kamwo Herbal Pharmacy: NY - Chinatown https://www. kamwo.com/ shop/product. php?productid= 17442 & cat= 0 & page=1 Golden Needle Acupuncture, Herbal & Medical Supply - Candler, NC http://www.goldenne edleonline. com/index. php?page= categories & category= 14 & vendor= & product= 5554 & pg= Asheville Center For 70 Woodfin Place, Suite West Wing Two Asheville, NC 28801 828.258.2777 kbartlett@Acupunctu reAsheville. com www.AcupunctureAshe ville.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 10, 2009 Report Share Posted June 10, 2009 I know it can be erradicated. A couple case, one 12 yrs ago, using herbs only, her pap came clean for years, after the verdict was cancerous. But it was using herbs specifically for her, so sorry, no cookbook stuff. -- On Tue, 6/9/09, margi.macdonald <margi.macdonald wrote: margi.macdonald <margi.macdonald Re: efficacy of Chlamydia tx with TCM? Chinese Medicine Tuesday, June 9, 2009, 6:26 PM Traditional_ Chinese_Medicine , " Bob Linde, AP, Herbalist " <boblindeherbalist@ ...> wrote: > " I have tried to treat one case and was able to slow it down but no cure. Used high dosage and frequency. I also told them its not fair to the partner to put them at risk for a partial treatment. symptoms may be gone but perhaps not all the bacteria. I recommended the antibiotics. 2 week course and you are done....follow up with probiotics and condoms... " > > Be well, > Bob Bob makes a sound recommendation there. In a not unrelated case, I once treated cystitis in a woman who had the whole gamut of signs and symptoms, including frank blood in the urine. She had elected not to see a doctor, wishing to avoid antibiotic Rx. We used high-dose TCM herbs for the pattern, urinary alkalizer, acupuncture. All signs and symptoms resolved, yet after 7-10 days she was very tired, and starting to get some lumbar pain. It was time to see the Doctor, and have her urine cultured. No blood, or white cells in the urine, but a heavy infection with E.coli, and the impending risk of kidney infection. Kath, your question raises important issues for us all, and Bob correctly pointed out the risk to your client's partner. Chlamydia causes infertility in women. Full stop. It is a pernicious organism; its presence is often unknown, and undetected. It is appropriate to practice TCM, and treat according to TCM pattern in any person who presents to us. It is never appropriate for us to imagine that TCM can do 'everything' , or for us to suggest to people, that it can. This is not a comment directed at anyone here, it is a generic statement. Margi Macdonald http://margihealing .wordpress. com/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 11, 2009 Report Share Posted June 11, 2009 Chinese Medicine , Hugo Ramiro <subincor wrote: > Hello everyone Kath wrote " could we please focus this discussion on tcm tx? " I feel when we ARE focussing on TCM, Western medical diagnoses become [ almost ] irrelevant, particularly in the case of infections. It comes back to the idea of terrain. We all know how to help a person create an optimal 'garden for good health' once we have the TCM pattern identified; by using herbs, acupuncture, and suggesting diet & lifestyle changes etc. The balancing act for any natural medicine practitioner, is to manage people's health issues safely and appropriately alongside[?]together with[?] a medical model which despite its significant failings, has plenty to offer folk, when it's implemented appropriately. Antibiotics, used judiciously, and correctly, are not the most damaging substances prescribed by western scientific medical professionals. I feel our job is to help correct and maintain the 'garden', so that the need for future Rx with antibiotics is minimised. That many herbs may prove to have specificity against certain microorganisms, is inevitable. In my own - Australian - context I am unaware of any herbs or formulae which have been prepared and tested in such a way, that we can tell a patient with absolute certainty, that they will eliminate offending organisms in a medically identified infection. Margi http://margihealing.wordpress.com/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 12, 2009 Report Share Posted June 12, 2009 That's a good point. " Chlamydia " is a western diagnosis. You could try these, though: http://www.electroherbalism.com/Bioelectronics/FrequenciesandAnecdotes/CAFL.htm Chlamydia_general - 3773, 3768, 2223, 2218, 2213, 942, 866, 840, 622, 555, 470, 430 Chlamydia_pneumoniae - 7543.4, 7520.5, 4710.5, 3773.3, 3760.3, 1886, 1880, 943.3, 940, 620, 479, 471.66, 470.9, 941.8, 3767.3 Chlamydia_trachomatis (a usually sexually transmitted bacterial infection causing trachoma, inclusion conjunctivitis, lymphogranuloma venereum, urethritis, and proctitis.) - 430, 620, 624, 840, 1111.4, 2213, 866, 555.7, 2222.8 Chlamydia_trachomatis_HC - 18968.87, 944.40 - " mystir " <ykcul_ritsym <Chinese Medicine > Wednesday, June 10, 2009 3:29 PM Re: efficacy of Chlamydia tx with TCM? I know it can be erradicated. A couple case, one 12 yrs ago, using herbs only, her pap came clean for years, after the verdict was cancerous. But it was using herbs specifically for her, so sorry, no cookbook stuff. -- On Tue, 6/9/09, margi.macdonald <margi.macdonald wrote: margi.macdonald <margi.macdonald Re: efficacy of Chlamydia tx with TCM? Chinese Medicine Tuesday, June 9, 2009, 6:26 PM Traditional_ Chinese_Medicine , " Bob Linde, AP, Herbalist " <boblindeherbalist@ ...> wrote: > " I have tried to treat one case and was able to slow it down but no cure. Used high dosage and frequency. I also told them its not fair to the partner to put them at risk for a partial treatment. symptoms may be gone but perhaps not all the bacteria. I recommended the antibiotics. 2 week course and you are done....follow up with probiotics and condoms... " > > Be well, > Bob Bob makes a sound recommendation there. In a not unrelated case, I once treated cystitis in a woman who had the whole gamut of signs and symptoms, including frank blood in the urine. She had elected not to see a doctor, wishing to avoid antibiotic Rx. We used high-dose TCM herbs for the pattern, urinary alkalizer, acupuncture. All signs and symptoms resolved, yet after 7-10 days she was very tired, and starting to get some lumbar pain. It was time to see the Doctor, and have her urine cultured. No blood, or white cells in the urine, but a heavy infection with E.coli, and the impending risk of kidney infection. Kath, your question raises important issues for us all, and Bob correctly pointed out the risk to your client's partner. Chlamydia causes infertility in women. Full stop. It is a pernicious organism; its presence is often unknown, and undetected. It is appropriate to practice TCM, and treat according to TCM pattern in any person who presents to us. It is never appropriate for us to imagine that TCM can do 'everything' , or for us to suggest to people, that it can. This is not a comment directed at anyone here, it is a generic statement. Margi Macdonald http://margihealing .wordpress. com/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 12, 2009 Report Share Posted June 12, 2009 mercurius & margie: once i do an intake and tcm dx, my next obvious step will be to create a formula. i am pleased to learn that colleagues have successfully treated chlamydia using chin herbs. i am wondering if anyone can suggest tcm formula reference material for herbal formulas used to tx chlamydia? yes, of course by chin pattern, how else to we dx & tx? [rhetorical question] kath On Fri, Jun 12, 2009 at 3:47 PM, Mercurius Trismegistus < magisterium_magnum wrote: > > > That's a good point. " Chlamydia " is a western diagnosis. > You could try these, though: > > http://www.electroherbalism.com/Bioelectronics/FrequenciesandAnecdotes/CAFL.htm > Chlamydia_general - 3773, 3768, 2223, 2218, 2213, 942, 866, 840, 622, 555, > 470, 430 > Chlamydia_pneumoniae - 7543.4, 7520.5, 4710.5, 3773.3, 3760.3, 1886, 1880, > 943.3, 940, 620, 479, 471.66, 470.9, 941.8, 3767.3 > Chlamydia_trachomatis (a usually sexually transmitted bacterial infection > causing trachoma, inclusion conjunctivitis, lymphogranuloma venereum, > urethritis, and proctitis.) - 430, 620, 624, 840, 1111.4, 2213, 866, 555.7, > > 2222.8 > Chlamydia_trachomatis_HC - 18968.87, 944.40 > > > - > " mystir " <ykcul_ritsym <ykcul_ritsym%40>> > To: <Chinese Medicine <Chinese Medicine%40yah\ oogroups.com> > > > Wednesday, June 10, 2009 3:29 PM > Re: efficacy of Chlamydia tx with TCM? > > I know it can be erradicated. A couple case, one 12 yrs ago, using herbs > only, her pap came clean for years, after the verdict was cancerous. But it > > was using herbs specifically for her, so sorry, no cookbook stuff. > -- On Tue, 6/9/09, margi.macdonald <margi.macdonald<margi.macdonald%40gmail.com>> > wrote: > > margi.macdonald <margi.macdonald<margi.macdonald%40gmail.com> > > > Re: efficacy of Chlamydia tx with TCM? > To: Chinese Medicine <Chinese Medicine%40yaho\ ogroups.com> > Tuesday, June 9, 2009, 6:26 PM > > Traditional_ Chinese_Medicine , " Bob Linde, > AP, Herbalist " <boblindeherbalist@ ...> wrote: > > > > > " I have tried to treat one case and was able to slow it down but no cure. > Used high dosage and frequency. I also told them its not fair to the > partner > to put them at risk for a partial treatment. symptoms may be gone but > perhaps not all the bacteria. I recommended the antibiotics. 2 week course > and you are done....follow up with probiotics and condoms... " > > > > > > Be well, > > > Bob > > Bob makes a sound recommendation there. > > In a not unrelated case, I once treated cystitis in a woman who had the > whole gamut of signs and symptoms, including frank blood in the urine. > > She had elected not to see a doctor, wishing to avoid antibiotic Rx. > > We used high-dose TCM herbs for the pattern, urinary alkalizer, > acupuncture. > > All signs and symptoms resolved, yet after 7-10 days she was very tired, > and > starting to get some lumbar pain. > > It was time to see the Doctor, and have her urine cultured. > > No blood, or white cells in the urine, but a heavy infection with E.coli, > and the impending risk of kidney infection. > > Kath, your question raises important issues for us all, and Bob correctly > pointed out the risk to your client's partner. > > Chlamydia causes infertility in women. > > Full stop. > > It is a pernicious organism; its presence is often unknown, and undetected. > > It is appropriate to practice TCM, and treat according to TCM pattern in > any > person who presents to us. > > It is never appropriate for us to imagine that TCM can do 'everything' , or > > for us to suggest to people, that it can. > > This is not a comment directed at anyone here, it is a generic statement. > > Margi Macdonald > > http://margihealing .wordpress. com/ > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 12, 2009 Report Share Posted June 12, 2009 Actually I don't think they said they treated Chlamydia...sounded like one was using vibrational medicine (the link) and other other an abnormal pap/precancerous issue...no relationship to bacterial infection/chlamydia. Other than in the one gentleman in Asia who fixes it all the time with herbs I could not find any reports of success in the US. My attempt was on a man with large, swollen testicle/epididimus (sp?) so much harder to get to the location...ie only internal herbs. For a woman, you would be able to use local and internal ie a douce which would likely have much greater effect or perhaps use a bolus for longer contact/retention. Love to hear about your success/outcomes/dx and protocals Good luck, Bob Be well, Bob Robert Linde, AP, RH Professional Herbalists Training Program Acupuncture & Herbal Therapies 901 Central Ave St. Petersburg, FL 33705 www.acuherbals.com 727-551-0857 --- On Fri, 6/12/09, wrote: Re: efficacy of Chlamydia tx with TCM? Chinese Medicine Friday, June 12, 2009, 4:39 PM mercurius & margie: once i do an intake and tcm dx, my next obvious step will be to create a formula. i am pleased to learn that colleagues have successfully treated chlamydia using chin herbs. i am wondering if anyone can suggest tcm formula reference material for herbal formulas used to tx chlamydia? yes, of course by chin pattern, how else to we dx & tx? [rhetorical question] kath On Fri, Jun 12, 2009 at 3:47 PM, Mercurius Trismegistus < magisterium_ magnum (AT) comcast (DOT) net> wrote: > > > That's a good point. " Chlamydia " is a western diagnosis. > You could try these, though: > > http://www.electroh erbalism. com/Bioelectroni cs/Frequenciesan dAnecdotes/ CAFL.htm > Chlamydia_general - 3773, 3768, 2223, 2218, 2213, 942, 866, 840, 622, 555, > 470, 430 > Chlamydia_pneumonia e - 7543.4, 7520.5, 4710.5, 3773.3, 3760.3, 1886, 1880, > 943.3, 940, 620, 479, 471.66, 470.9, 941.8, 3767.3 > Chlamydia_trachomat is (a usually sexually transmitted bacterial infection > causing trachoma, inclusion conjunctivitis, lymphogranuloma venereum, > urethritis, and proctitis.) - 430, 620, 624, 840, 1111.4, 2213, 866, 555.7, > > 2222.8 > Chlamydia_trachomat is_HC - 18968.87, 944.40 > > > - > " mystir " <ykcul_ritsym@ <ykcul_ritsym% 40> > > <Traditional_ Chinese_Medicine <Traditional_ Chinese_Medicine %40. com> > > > Wednesday, June 10, 2009 3:29 PM > Re: efficacy of Chlamydia tx with TCM? > > I know it can be erradicated. A couple case, one 12 yrs ago, using herbs > only, her pap came clean for years, after the verdict was cancerous. But it > > was using herbs specifically for her, so sorry, no cookbook stuff. > -- On Tue, 6/9/09, margi.macdonald <margi.macdonald@ gmail.com<margi.macdonald% 40gmail.com> > > wrote: > > margi.macdonald <margi.macdonald@ gmail.com<margi.macdonald% 40gmail.com> > > > Re: efficacy of Chlamydia tx with TCM? > <Traditional_ Chinese_Medicine %40. com> > Tuesday, June 9, 2009, 6:26 PM > > Traditional_ Chinese_Medicine , " Bob Linde, > AP, Herbalist " <boblindeherbalist@ ...> wrote: > > > > > " I have tried to treat one case and was able to slow it down but no cure. > Used high dosage and frequency. I also told them its not fair to the > partner > to put them at risk for a partial treatment. symptoms may be gone but > perhaps not all the bacteria. I recommended the antibiotics. 2 week course > and you are done....follow up with probiotics and condoms... " > > > > > > Be well, > > > Bob > > Bob makes a sound recommendation there. > > In a not unrelated case, I once treated cystitis in a woman who had the > whole gamut of signs and symptoms, including frank blood in the urine. > > She had elected not to see a doctor, wishing to avoid antibiotic Rx. > > We used high-dose TCM herbs for the pattern, urinary alkalizer, > acupuncture. > > All signs and symptoms resolved, yet after 7-10 days she was very tired, > and > starting to get some lumbar pain. > > It was time to see the Doctor, and have her urine cultured. > > No blood, or white cells in the urine, but a heavy infection with E.coli, > and the impending risk of kidney infection. > > Kath, your question raises important issues for us all, and Bob correctly > pointed out the risk to your client's partner. > > Chlamydia causes infertility in women. > > Full stop. > > It is a pernicious organism; its presence is often unknown, and undetected. > > It is appropriate to practice TCM, and treat according to TCM pattern in > any > person who presents to us. > > It is never appropriate for us to imagine that TCM can do 'everything' , or > > for us to suggest to people, that it can. > > This is not a comment directed at anyone here, it is a generic statement. > > Margi Macdonald > > http://margihealing .wordpress. com/ > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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