Guest guest Posted June 1, 2009 Report Share Posted June 1, 2009 Alon, Going back to the discussion a few weeks ago, I think that the benefit of vaccinating outweighs the risks for certain disorders... but, the issue was about which vaccinations at what type of schedule.... should a new-born be vaccinated with Hep A and B, just because it saves a hospital visit? Whooping cough is on the rise... as I've heard for the last 3 years. For a 1.5 year old, contracting whooping cough could be fatal... because their lungs are still developing. If your child is in daycare and hanging around a lot of other children, it may make a lot of sense to get the acellular pertussis vaccination. But, what about chicken pox, mumps and measles etc...? K On Mon, Jun 1, 2009 at 4:43 PM, alonmarcus2003 <alonmarcus wrote: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 1, 2009 Report Share Posted June 1, 2009 Alon, Thanks for posting this. I hope it will be a launching point for some productive discussion on CHA. My wife and I, as new parents, have been recently faced with choices about immunizing our 8mo. old and have filled our heads with all sort of conflicting information and fear based rhetoric from both sides of the fence. We've chosen to immunize for certain things for a variety of reasons including civic duty, having seen people die from the disease, we like to travel, etc. We also chose not to immunize for others and/or chose a scheduling other than the recommended program for various reasons. What I think is unfortunate about this missive from your colleague, sent as an internal memo, is that it is so dismissive about the possibility of deleterious effects of vaccinations and writes this off as a mess of already disproven public theories. What I'm really curious about is how practitioners here on this list handle this subject with your patients. Do you keep up on this issue and shifting perspectives and research? Do you to either an all or none perspective and urge your patients with small children in either direction? Have you changed your perspective? Why? I've personally been treated to incredulity by both camps within our own profession. From the naievity(sp?) of " Oh, we can treat meningitis w/ Chinese herbs-I can't believe you'd poison your child like that. " to " You need to just do what the doctors say -they know what is right. " Besides wondering where people stand on these issues, I'm curious if people have special protocols they to for treatment around vaccination times and/or if they see reactions. What pediatric resources do people enjoy? I feel like the literature in our field is pretty slender. Thanks in advance for your thoughts. Ben Zappin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 1, 2009 Report Share Posted June 1, 2009 > Do you happen to know which ones in particular? > -Danny Johnson >> I don't believe any of that. Mercury is still used in vaccines and >> vaccines >> still contain unknown and uncontrolled recombinants. >> >> > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 1, 2009 Report Share Posted June 1, 2009 I don't believe any of that. Mercury is still used in vaccines and vaccines still contain unknown and uncontrolled recombinants. - Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 2, 2009 Report Share Posted June 2, 2009 hi mostly a reader of this group, not much of a writer...but i wanted to address/add on to ben's input - first off, thanks ben, for your personal input into the subject. there is something about having to make these decisions as a caretaker, that can change what we once may have had opinions around. we have made similar decisions in vaccinating our child, in terms of necessary, age appropriate vaccines, i.e. receiving whooping cough, but not hep b...etc. in terms of having patients with this conundrum, and giving them advice, resources, i took a great professional lesson from our midwife. the vaccination discussion came up in my last trimester. she handed us a fair, unbiased look at the subject, loaning us books, magazine articles, a md lectured dvd on vaccinations and had us take them home, educate ourselves from all the angles, talk amongst ourselves as parents to make our decision. she impressed upon us, this is our choice, not her opinion time. not once, did she express her views on the subject. i liked her approach in offering us the info and letting us decide based on our views and what we learned. it made me not feel terrified or unsure by either side of the issue and we felt confident and responsible for the decisions we made for our child. so, when it comes to having patients asking about vaccines and what we did, i do the same the midwife did for us. lead and offer them resources and let them figure out what feels best for them as parents. i think the most simplified and easily attainable resource to offer people, is 'the vaccine book,' by dr. sears. he also has a website that he writes up on the latest news, etc., i.e. swine flu, the new mmr choices. http://www.askdrsears.com/thevaccinebook/index.asp with both, he offers information, facts, and alternative choices. just one of many perspectives on walking the line of parent and practitioner. -- tricia good Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 2, 2009 Report Share Posted June 2, 2009 Bob Flaws makes some good points in his pediatric text book on the topic of Vaccinations. Basically he says that as a parent we have to live with whatever choice we decide, and both choices have risks. If we vaccinate and a problem manifests, then as a parent we will feel upset. If we don't vaccinate and our child becomes ill from one of the disease that may have been " preventable " then we will feel upset. We as parents really just have to face up to this and take responsibility for our choices. The other issue that Bob brings up is whether or not one has access to a good qualified TCM Doctor who is skilled in the treatment of some of the diseases we may decide against vaccination for. I personally wouldn't claim to be confident enough to treat some of these and would not want to mislead my patients that I could. I do however have access to a very competent Doc here in vancouver whom I would trust with both my life and my daughters. Many people in rural areas may not have this luxury. If parents decide to vaccinate their kids then I usually recommend keeping it simple and only introducing one at a time, rather than the multipacks so commonly used. Many of these studies they do to determine side effects from the vaccine are related to short term effects, like fever, fainting, etc. I have yet to see some studies comparing atopy (asthma, eczema, rhinnitus) rates with those vaccinated and those not. One of the biggest with vaccines side effects that I have come across is people actually developing the disease from the vaccine itself. Just 4 days ago I had a young woman who developed Rubella from the vaccine, from which almost killed her as a young person. In China I saw my dermatology teacher successfully treat Rubella, so again perhaps it is about having access to competent practitioners??..... My daughter, aged 13, is vaccinated for tetanus because we do a far amount of hiking in the outback, making it difficult to obtain quick medical care if a problem ever arose. SHe has not been vaccinated for anything else. She had chicken pox just like me and everyone else. She had whooping cough as an infant and survived just fine with the help of Chinese herbal medicine. If we do some international travel then I would consider others, like polio or whatever. My 2 cents, Trevor , " myenglishbike " <pbjgood wrote: > > hi > > mostly a reader of this group, not much of a writer...but i wanted to address/add on to ben's input - > > first off, thanks ben, for your personal input into the subject. there is something about having to make these decisions as a caretaker, that can change what we once may have had opinions around. > > we have made similar decisions in vaccinating our child, in terms of necessary, age appropriate vaccines, i.e. receiving whooping cough, but not hep b...etc. > > in terms of having patients with this conundrum, and giving them advice, resources, i took a great professional lesson from our midwife. the vaccination discussion came up in my last trimester. she handed us a fair, unbiased look at the subject, loaning us books, magazine articles, a md lectured dvd on vaccinations and had us take them home, educate ourselves from all the angles, talk amongst ourselves as parents to make our decision. she impressed upon us, this is our choice, not her opinion time. not once, did she express her views on the subject. > > i liked her approach in offering us the info and letting us decide based on our views and what we learned. it made me not feel terrified or unsure by either side of the issue and we felt confident and responsible for the decisions we made for our child. > > so, when it comes to having patients asking about vaccines and what we did, i do the same the midwife did for us. lead and offer them resources and let them figure out what feels best for them as parents. > > i think the most simplified and easily attainable resource to offer people, is 'the vaccine book,' by dr. sears. he also has a website that he writes up on the latest news, etc., i.e. swine flu, the new mmr choices. http://www.askdrsears.com/thevaccinebook/index.asp with both, he offers information, facts, and alternative choices. > > just one of many perspectives on walking the line of parent and practitioner. > > -- tricia good > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 2, 2009 Report Share Posted June 2, 2009 An issue to think about in terms of separating the vaccines is that you expose your child to just that much more adjuvant. Thimerisol is avoidable these days, but there are still other compounds in the adjuvant of vaccines like aluminum that you might not want to expose your child to any more than is necessary. If parents want to vaccinate, I usually recommend that they think about this. -Steve Stephen Bonzak, L.Ac., Dipl. O.M. http://www.health-traditions.com sbonzak 773-470-6994 On Jun 2, 2009, at 5:21 PM, Trevor Erikson wrote: > > > Bob Flaws makes some good points in his pediatric text book on the > topic of Vaccinations. Basically he says that as a parent we have > to live with whatever choice we decide, and both choices have risks. > > If we vaccinate and a problem manifests, then as a parent we will > feel upset. If we don't vaccinate and our child becomes ill from > one of the disease that may have been " preventable " then we will > feel upset. We as parents really just have to face up to this and > take responsibility for our choices. > > The other issue that Bob brings up is whether or not one has access > to a good qualified TCM Doctor who is skilled in the treatment of > some of the diseases we may decide against vaccination for. I > personally wouldn't claim to be confident enough to treat some of > these and would not want to mislead my patients that I could. I do > however have access to a very competent Doc here in vancouver whom > I would trust with both my life and my daughters. Many people in > rural areas may not have this luxury. > > If parents decide to vaccinate their kids then I usually recommend > keeping it simple and only introducing one at a time, rather than > the multipacks so commonly used. Many of these studies they do to > determine side effects from the vaccine are related to short term > effects, like fever, fainting, etc. I have yet to see some studies > comparing atopy (asthma, eczema, rhinnitus) rates with those > vaccinated and those not. > > One of the biggest with vaccines side effects that I have come > across is people actually developing the disease from the vaccine > itself. Just 4 days ago I had a young woman who developed Rubella > from the vaccine, from which almost killed her as a young person. > In China I saw my dermatology teacher successfully treat Rubella, > so again perhaps it is about having access to competent > practitioners??..... > > My daughter, aged 13, is vaccinated for tetanus because we do a far > amount of hiking in the outback, making it difficult to obtain > quick medical care if a problem ever arose. SHe has not been > vaccinated for anything else. She had chicken pox just like me and > everyone else. She had whooping cough as an infant and survived > just fine with the help of Chinese herbal medicine. If we do some > international travel then I would consider others, like polio or > whatever. > > My 2 cents, > > Trevor > > , " myenglishbike " > <pbjgood wrote: > > > > hi > > > > mostly a reader of this group, not much of a writer...but i > wanted to address/add on to ben's input - > > > > first off, thanks ben, for your personal input into the subject. > there is something about having to make these decisions as a > caretaker, that can change what we once may have had opinions around. > > > > we have made similar decisions in vaccinating our child, in terms > of necessary, age appropriate vaccines, i.e. receiving whooping > cough, but not hep b...etc. > > > > in terms of having patients with this conundrum, and giving them > advice, resources, i took a great professional lesson from our > midwife. the vaccination discussion came up in my last trimester. > she handed us a fair, unbiased look at the subject, loaning us > books, magazine articles, a md lectured dvd on vaccinations and had > us take them home, educate ourselves from all the angles, talk > amongst ourselves as parents to make our decision. she impressed > upon us, this is our choice, not her opinion time. not once, did > she express her views on the subject. > > > > i liked her approach in offering us the info and letting us > decide based on our views and what we learned. it made me not feel > terrified or unsure by either side of the issue and we felt > confident and responsible for the decisions we made for our child. > > > > so, when it comes to having patients asking about vaccines and > what we did, i do the same the midwife did for us. lead and offer > them resources and let them figure out what feels best for them as > parents. > > > > i think the most simplified and easily attainable resource to > offer people, is 'the vaccine book,' by dr. sears. he also has a > website that he writes up on the latest news, etc., i.e. swine flu, > the new mmr choices. http://www.askdrsears.com/thevaccinebook/ > index.asp with both, he offers information, facts, and alternative > choices. > > > > just one of many perspectives on walking the line of parent and > practitioner. > > > > -- tricia good > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 3, 2009 Report Share Posted June 3, 2009 Just a personal note, my wife and I raised three children who are now 31, 29 and 27. We elected not to vaccinate. In our case, we did not feel that the diseases were that dangerous since smallpox and polio were out of the picture. We fully expected the children to go through the standard childhood diseases and they did. They had measles, chickenpox and maybe mumps. When they became sick, we did extensive nursing including making sure they were as comfortable as possible, keeping them hydrated and fed. It was hard and demanded at lot of our time. Expect for these events and some " colds " and stomach aches, one round of ringworm for all three, lice a couple of times and a couple of broken collarbones they made it through childhood without any serious skin diseases, asthma or allergies (except one daughter is very sensitive to poison ivy). Were we just lucky? I don't know but I do know that as a child I drank many soft drinks and ate pretty poorly as a child and went through the measles, and mumps just fine. I did have polio and smallpox vaccines. If there was a serious, life threatening epidemic such as variola major ( the bad type of smallpox) we might have vaccinated, I honestly do not know. Two of the children went to the Shots for Tots program at the age of 17 because one wanted to go on a exchange program to Costa Rica for a year and the other wanted to go on an eight week summer school cruise to South America. Both programs demanded shots. I remember my son reading the official vaccine literature with the list of possible " side effects " , he was very shocked at the possibilities. If the government wants to encourage vaccines, they should have a well funded insurance program for those children who do have a terrible reaction. Some of the damage is rare but devastating and can lead to a life of very high medical bills. When parents ask me about vaccines, I simply tell them our story and mention that if they are not willing to consistently feed and take care of their kids and be prepared for the diseases, they should probably get at least some of the vaccines. The pertinent vaccine questions are when, in what order and which. Good luck with vaccine decisions, I am glad I am past all that and my children now make their own decisions. -- Duncan E " We are here to help each other get though this thing, whatever it is. " -Mark Vonnegut Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 3, 2009 Report Share Posted June 3, 2009 I wonder how important this is to people... if vaccines are given to do it in single shots and spread out over a longer time and perhaps starting at a later age. Doug , Duncan E <willhealu wrote: > > Just a personal note, my wife and I raised three children who are now > 31, 29 and 27. We elected not to vaccinate. In our case, we did not > feel that the diseases were that dangerous since smallpox and polio > were out of the picture. > > The pertinent vaccine questions are when, in what order and which. > > Good luck with vaccine decisions, I am glad I am past all that and my > children now make their own decisions. > > > > -- > Duncan E > > > " We are here to help each other get though this thing, whatever it is. " > -Mark Vonnegut > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 4, 2009 Report Share Posted June 4, 2009 Doug, I think that is the best approach, if one chooses to vaccinate. Certainly in Europe, vaccination schedules are not as extreme as in the U.S. No matter what is said about vaccinations being safe, there is still no study I know of that measures giving multiple pathogens into the bloodstream at a single time. I know that there are new developments in vaccines given orally as proteins that may be safer than the injectable ones. By the way, Duncan, you are spot on. I had a similar experience to you, but had to be prepared to manage childhood illnesses through my own training, and a natural lifestyle of organic foods for my children. On Jun 3, 2009, at 10:43 PM, wrote: > > > I wonder how important this is to people... if vaccines are given to > do it in single shots and spread out over a longer time and perhaps > starting at a later age. > Doug > > , Duncan E <willhealu > wrote: > > > > Just a personal note, my wife and I raised three children who are > now > > 31, 29 and 27. We elected not to vaccinate. In our case, we did not > > feel that the diseases were that dangerous since smallpox and polio > > were out of the picture. > > > > The pertinent vaccine questions are when, in what order and which. > > > > Good luck with vaccine decisions, I am glad I am past all that and > my > > children now make their own decisions. > > > > > > > > -- > > Duncan E > > > > > > " We are here to help each other get though this thing, whatever it > is. " > > -Mark Vonnegut > > > > Chair, Department of Herbal Medicine Pacific College of Oriental Medicine San Diego, Ca. 92122 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 6, 2009 Report Share Posted June 6, 2009 Alon, Yes I do tend to believe what he has published and so do many others. I think it is important to remember that it took an act of Congress to actually get someone from outside the CDC to get access to its data for study (I think he actually had worked for them but had retired). Now I think we should be asking ourselves why is it that others do not want this simple data from being public (this data is encrypted and the names removed so that is not it). Here is an article that takes another look at this issue. http://www.crossroadsinstitute.org/learningcenter/heavy-metal-toxins/autism-merc\ ury-study.html I have also attended one of Dr. Geier's seminars and had a chance to discuss his findings with him briefly. For example, the fact that most autistic children are male may suggest either a genetic component or a hormonal one. He found both. It appears that in the brains of children that lack or are deficient in a chemical, that helps excrete toxins like mercury, we see an accumulation of mercury. Mercury is not good for either the brain or nervous system in people but much worse for children. Testosterone also player a role in this but I do not remember how, sorry. I guess it comes down to whether or not you like him. It seems that the only way to get at what is happening is to have an agenda. There has not been any legitimate open dialogue or policy as such in this country and yet we force or coerce people to have this stuff pumped into the next generations of children. Why are we not questioning the money of this thing. It is huge and guess who is picking up the tab? We are. If you believe in it, great. Then you can feel free to get those shots for you and your family. Just remember that if this really worked as well as you think, people would want to take it themselves and there would be no need for compulsory vaccinations. We need to ask questions and openly access the accurate information to make informed decisions. That has not really happened up to this point except by a few, like Dr. Geier and his son. Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc This email message is intended only for the personal use of the above named recipient(s). If you are not the intended recipient, you may not review, copy or forward this email message. If you have received this communication in error, please notify the sender immediately via email or phone and delete the message accordingly. Chinese Medicine alonmarcus Sat, 6 Jun 2009 11:01:40 -0700 Re: vaccine Mike I think you are making my point here. People tend to look for information that support their preconceived tendencies. I do not believe dr Geier is a reliable source of information. He is completely invested in his agenda. Is there any reason you believe his claims as compared for example the canadian study in pediatrics?, the danish studies? or the 2008 study Continuing Increases in Autism Reported to California's Developmental Services System Mercury in Retrograde Robert Schechter, MD, MSc; Judith K. Grether, PhD Arch Gen Psychiatry. 2008;65(1):19-24. Context Previous analyses of autism client data reported to the California Department of Developmental Services (DDS) have been interpreted as supporting the hypothesis that autism is caused by exposure to the preservative thimerosal, which contains ethylmercury. The exclusion of thimerosal from childhood vaccines in the United States was accelerated from 1999 to 2001. The Immunization Safety Review Committee of the Institute of Medicine has recommended surveillance of trends in autism as exposure to thimerosal during early childhood has decreased. Objective To determine whether trends in DDS autism client data support the hypothesis that thimerosal exposure is a primary cause of autism. Design, Setting, and Patients Study of time trends in the prevalence by age and birth cohort of children with autism who were active status clients of the DDS from January 1, 1995, through March 31, 2007. Main Outcome Measure Prevalence of autism among children with active status in the DDS. Results The estimated prevalence of autism for children at each year of age from 3 to 12 years increased throughout the study period. The estimated prevalence of DDS clients aged 3 to 5 years with autism increased for each quarter from January 1995 through March 2007. Since 2004, the absolute increase and the rate of increase in DDS clients aged 3 to 5 years with autism were higher than those in DDS clients of the same ages with any eligible condition including autism. Conclusions The DDS data do not show any recent decrease in autism in California despite the exclusion of more than trace levels of thimerosal from nearly all childhood vaccines. The DDS data do not support the hypothesis that exposure to thimerosal during childhood is a primary cause of autism. 400 29th St. Suite 419 Oakland Ca 94609 alonmarcus Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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