SA / AV regulation through the Luo vessels

[Guest guest]

Stefano,

 

I applaud your investigative mind,

but I would have to disagree on a few points for this particular hypothesis.

 

Since the medicine that we practice is a science based on empirical

observation,

the classical literature makes no notice of Du 6 Ling Tai

as a regulator for heart rhythm.

 

If this was the case, there should be palpitations or irregular heart beat

(HT Qi def) indications.

The pulse could be hesitant, hollow, abrupt or regularly intermittent.

 

I propose another way of looking for the SA/ AV node regulation

from a traditional Asian medical point of view...

 

According to classical references, both *HT 5 Tong Li* ( " Penetrating the

Interior " )

and *PC 6 Nei Guan* ( " Inner Pass " ) *have been used to regulate the heart

rhythm.*

 

From Deadman, pg. 217

" As for regulating the Heart Qi, Tong Li Ht 5 plays an important role in the

treatment

of palpitations, fright palpitations, pounding of the heart and disorders of

heart rhythm "

 

From Deadman, pg. 377

" The action of Nei Guan PC 6 on regulating the Heart zang and calming the

spirit

emphasizes its dual effect on both the physical and emotional aspects of the

Heart.

It is an important point in the treatment of palpitations, pounding of the

Heart

and disorders of Heart rhythm... "

 

Both of these points are suggestive in their names, " Penentrating the

Interior "

and " Inner Pass " , to regulate internal physiological processes

and what else do they have in common?

 

They are both Luo opening points for imperial fire and ministerial fire

respectively.

 

If one investigates the *HT and PC longitudinal Luo vessels,

*one sees that both meet at Ren 17 Shan Zhong ( " Chest Center " ,

the front Mu of the PC and *influential point of Qi..*.

 

So, in summary, could the HT and PC Longitudinal Luo vessels

be the influential channels for regulating the SA / AV nodes of the heart?

 

K

 

 

 

 

 

--

 

Turtle Island Integrative Health

 

 

TCM Review director

CA State Board Prep Courses

www.tcmreview.com

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Dear John,

I too applaud you and your profound answer.

Never say never, but if some troubles of heart

rhythm will affect me, I remember your

indications. :-)

" Both of these points are suggestive in their

names, " Penentrating the

Interior " and " Inner Pass " . OMEN NOMEN.

Also in my opinion HT and PC surely are influent

on SA-AV nodes, and maybe also Dushu in chronic

cases.

The following recent study is on the " Effects of

acupuncture at Neiguan (PC 6) on function of

sinoatrial node " :

 

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18822976?ordina

lpos=11 & itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_

ResultsPanel.Pubmed_DefaultReportPanel.Pubmed_RVDo

cSum

 

 

Friendly,

Stefano

 

---------

Stefano,

 

I applaud your investigative mind,

So, in summary, could the HT and PC Longitudinal

Luo vessels

be the influential channels for regulating the SA

/ AV nodes of the heart?

 

K

[Guest guest]

So, how do we explain this? It cannot be the du and am unaware of any

peripheral spinal nerves that connect with the heart. Sounds very interesting,

no?

 

Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc

 

> Chinese Medicine

> stefanomarcelli

> Tue, 2 Jun 2009 22:45:21 +0200

> RE: SA / AV regulation through the Luo vessels

>

> Dear John,

> I too applaud you and your profound answer.

> Never say never, but if some troubles of heart

> rhythm will affect me, I remember your

> indications. :-)

> " Both of these points are suggestive in their

> names, " Penentrating the

> Interior " and " Inner Pass " . OMEN NOMEN.

> Also in my opinion HT and PC surely are influent

> on SA-AV nodes, and maybe also Dushu in chronic

> cases.

> The following recent study is on the " Effects of

> acupuncture at Neiguan (PC 6) on function of

> sinoatrial node " :

>

> http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18822976?ordina

> lpos=11 & itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_

> ResultsPanel.Pubmed_DefaultReportPanel.Pubmed_RVDo

> cSum

>

>

> Friendly,

> Stefano

>

> ---------

> Stefano,

>

> I applaud your investigative mind,

> So, in summary, could the HT and PC Longitudinal

> Luo vessels

> be the influential channels for regulating the SA

> / AV nodes of the heart?

>

> K

>

>

>

>

> ---

>

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>

>

and adjust

accordingly.

>

>

>

> Please consider the environment and only print this message if absolutely

necessary.

[Guest guest]

Chinese Medicine , mike Bowser

<naturaldoc1 wrote:

 

 

" ...could the HT and PC Longitudinal Luo vessels be the influential channels

for regulating the SA / AV nodes of the heart? "

 

 

" So, how do we explain this? It cannot be the du and am unaware of any

peripheral spinal nerves that connect with the heart. Sounds very interesting,

no? "

 

 

Thanks one and all for a fascinating, and mind-expanding series of posts.

 

When seeking to understand measurable, physiological function in response to

acupuncture, I like to remember that the Autonomic Nervous system and its

influence, provides bio-electrical and biochemical evidence of Yin and Yang at

play.

Sympathetic activity/outflow - Yang in nature

Para-sympathetic activity/outflow - Yin in nature

 

Stick a needle in someone, anywhere really, and the peripheral nervous system

cranks up and dashes off a pile of information which the Yin/Yang/ANS

master-unconscious-controller automatically responds to as an adjustment... and

the dance and interplay and movement towards equilibrium continues....we see and

sense it happening, as hormones, ions, neurotransmitters, enzymes, nerve

impulses, blood gases, etc etc release, activate, move and change 'things'.

Is this Qi at work? Of course it is. Are the Blood and Fluids involved? The

organs? Uh Huh. Emotions, personality, spirit and psyche? Why...yes!

 

Our TCM ancestors did not see and understand people as join-the-dot templates.

They did a brilliant job of identifying and describing anatomy, physiology,

pathophysiology, and homeostasis and what that means in a human context, for

people living ordinary lives.

That there are physical, chemical, hormonal and electrical pathways, vessels,

tubes, pouches, conduits, fossae, nerve tracts, bunches, fibres, nodes et al,

suggests that the nomenclature of TCM was, and remains, 'spot on'.

To name it, was to know it.

Our clever old ancestors nutted this out without CT scanners, fMRI, endless

blood work, and wretched randomly controlled, blinded cross-over clinical

trials!

 

We 21st century beings are quite slow to catch on, aren't we

 

Margi

http://margihealing.wordpress.com

[Guest guest]

Dear Michael.

 

It sounds wonderfully interesting.

Prof. Kwan Boh has shown how Bongwan channels

penetrate limph and blood vessels. So we have seen

them (in the animals at the moment) full with qi

and blood in according with the Classics). Maybe

do they penetrate also the nerves and the bones?

Doesn't Christian tradition tell that God is

everywhere?

But the paradise is lost and we are blind because

we used, are using the fire (in my materialistic

theory).

Dumai penetrates (and reemerges) the brain at

Du-16, where tissues are relatively soft, but the

second branch after having been emerged at inner

canthus cross each other and penetrate the brain

at Du-20 (and reemerges one time again), and there

the skull is not so soft, but in the children it

is because of the fontanelle.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fontanelle

 

The Explorers are in this TCM group, not at

Microsoft. But all we miss yet the " Vista " :-)

Ciao,

Stefano

 

---

 

So, how do we explain this? It cannot be the du

and am unaware of any peripheral spinal nerves

that connect with the heart. Sounds very

interesting, no?

 

Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc

[Guest guest]

Yes.. Margi...

Kiiko generally has said that the back treatment stimulates the sympathetic

NS

(speeding up the pulse)

and the front treatment generally stimulates the parasympathetic NS

slowing down the pulse)

 

Pulse as a reflection of the heart pushing out blood into the main arteries.

 

Back shu points are more tonifiying/regulating (yang part of the body

stimulation)

Front mu points are more regulating/draining (yin part of the body

stimulation)

 

Any other ideas on this?

 

K

 

 

On Tue, Jun 2, 2009 at 6:35 PM, margi.macdonald

<margi.macdonaldwrote:

 

>

>

> --- In

Chinese Medicine <Chinese Medicine%40yaho\

ogroups.com>,

> mike Bowser <naturaldoc1 wrote:

>

> " ...could the HT and PC Longitudinal Luo vessels be the influential

> channels for regulating the SA / AV nodes of the heart? "

>

>

> " So, how do we explain this? It cannot be the du and am unaware of any

> peripheral spinal nerves that connect with the heart. Sounds very

> interesting, no? "

>

> Thanks one and all for a fascinating, and mind-expanding series of posts.

>

> When seeking to understand measurable, physiological function in response

> to acupuncture, I like to remember that the Autonomic Nervous system and its

> influence, provides bio-electrical and biochemical evidence of Yin and Yang

> at play.

> Sympathetic activity/outflow - Yang in nature

> Para-sympathetic activity/outflow - Yin in nature

>

> Stick a needle in someone, anywhere really, and the peripheral nervous

> system cranks up and dashes off a pile of information which the Yin/Yang/ANS

> master-unconscious-controller automatically responds to as an adjustment...

> and the dance and interplay and movement towards equilibrium continues....we

> see and sense it happening, as hormones, ions, neurotransmitters, enzymes,

> nerve impulses, blood gases, etc etc release, activate, move and change

> 'things'.

> Is this Qi at work? Of course it is. Are the Blood and Fluids involved? The

> organs? Uh Huh. Emotions, personality, spirit and psyche? Why...yes!

>

> Our TCM ancestors did not see and understand people as join-the-dot

> templates. They did a brilliant job of identifying and describing anatomy,

> physiology, pathophysiology, and homeostasis and what that means in a human

> context, for people living ordinary lives.

> That there are physical, chemical, hormonal and electrical pathways,

> vessels, tubes, pouches, conduits, fossae, nerve tracts, bunches, fibres,

> nodes et al, suggests that the nomenclature of TCM was, and remains, 'spot

> on'.

> To name it, was to know it.

> Our clever old ancestors nutted this out without CT scanners, fMRI, endless

> blood work, and wretched randomly controlled, blinded cross-over clinical

> trials!

>

> We 21st century beings are quite slow to catch on, aren't we

>

> Margi

> http://margihealing.wordpress.com

>

>

>

>

 

 

 

--

 

Turtle Island Integrative Health

 

 

TCM Review director

CA State Board Prep Courses

www.tcmreview.com

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Stephano,

For the first time in a long time, the OM community has some tangible evidence

that these structures (Bonghan ducts) might help to explain the traditional

channels, in whole or in part, we are not yet sure. I am more convinced of this

when we consider the many traditional ideas such as the channels contain both qi

and blood in differing amounts or the directions of flow, that they guide growth

and development, etc. Bonghan spoke of these vessels showing up shortly after

conception, something that blood vessels and nerves have not been shown to do.

Thanks for the discussion.

Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc

 

 

> Chinese Medicine

> stefanomarcelli

> Wed, 3 Jun 2009 12:22:47 +0200

> RE: SA / AV regulation through the Luo vessels

>

> Dear Michael.

>

> It sounds wonderfully interesting.

> Prof. Kwan Boh has shown how Bongwan channels

> penetrate limph and blood vessels. So we have seen

> them (in the animals at the moment) full with qi

> and blood in according with the Classics). Maybe

> do they penetrate also the nerves and the bones?

> Doesn't Christian tradition tell that God is

> everywhere?

> But the paradise is lost and we are blind because

> we used, are using the fire (in my materialistic

> theory).

> Dumai penetrates (and reemerges) the brain at

> Du-16, where tissues are relatively soft, but the

> second branch after having been emerged at inner

> canthus cross each other and penetrate the brain

> at Du-20 (and reemerges one time again), and there

> the skull is not so soft, but in the children it

> is because of the fontanelle.

>

> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fontanelle

>

> The Explorers are in this TCM group, not at

> Microsoft. But all we miss yet the " Vista " :-)

> Ciao,

> Stefano

>

> ---

>

> So, how do we explain this? It cannot be the du

> and am unaware of any peripheral spinal nerves

> that connect with the heart. Sounds very

> interesting, no?

>

> Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc

>

 

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