Two criteria for back-shu points (solution)

[Guest guest]

Hi everyone.

The organ related to the Dumai channel, deduced from the special position in the

thorax of its point back-shu (Dushu, BL-16 between T6-T7 vertebrae), is

suggested here:

 

http://www.meso.it/BackShuPointsNewOutlook.EN.htm

 

Friendly

 

Stefano Marcelli

Acupuncturist in Italy

[Guest guest]

Stephano,

Nice diagrams but after reading some of the information I do not agree with

several of your conclusions. I hope my thoughts make some sense. Please feel

free to add to or correct me as well.

The Du Mai appears to have much more of a bodily influence then your suggestion.

Please note that the San Jiao also lacks any physical organ but has a function,

so the du mai is not alone in this matter.

I am looking at my notes from a Kiiko Matsumoto seminar in 2007. She mentioned

that the character for Du contains part of a radical that references " Te " or

virtue as in the name Tao Te Jing. She also mentioned that the Du Mai was like

a vine that wraps around a stake and is used as an anchor. This sounds to me a

lot like the way the spinal muscles contract prior to other muscular movements,

which is why I thought about the spinal nerves.

One thought about the shen is it is necessary for control of all movements, then

maybe the du channel that goes to the heart allows for shen to be involved and

interconnected to govern.

Other thoughts, as in the example of the du mai and its internal pathway with

the heart, I came across mention in Giovanni's text on " The Channels of

Acupuncture " where he discusses usage of Stomach 40, to access the Stomach Luo,

to treat heart problems thus suggesting a stomach channel regulation of the

heart as well, not sure if or how this works.

BTW, from the same Kiiko seminar, it was mentioned that within the heart is

ruled by the spleen. My thoughts on this would be related to the muscular wall

inside the heart and that muscle is controlled by the spleen.

Breathing is largely controlled by the phrenic nerve (diaphragm) and intercostal

muscles in western science. The heart is innervated by spinal segments T1-T4

plus the vagus nerve. The du mai shu is located at a much lower segment then

these. The shu point for the du is located upon the UB channel yet carries the

name of the vessel running inside the spinal column and maybe it strengthens

and/or relaxes this column. Maybe its organ is the spinal column. Just some

thoughts.

 

Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc

 

Chinese Medicine

stefanomarcelli

Mon, 1 Jun 2009 18:37:38 +0000

Two criteria for back-shu points (solution)

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Hi everyone.

 

The organ related to the Dumai channel, deduced from the special position in the

thorax of its point back-shu (Dushu, BL-16 between T6-T7 vertebrae), is

suggested here:

 

 

 

http://www.meso.it/BackShuPointsNewOutlook.EN.htm

 

 

 

Friendly

 

 

 

Stefano Marcelli

 

Acupuncturist in Italy

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

_______________

Hotmail® has a new way to see what's up with your friends.

http://windowslive.com/Tutorial/Hotmail/WhatsNew?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_HM_Tutorial_W\

hatsNew1_052009

 

 

[Guest guest]

Stephano,

Ling Tai (Du 10) located under T-6, doesn't have any classical indications

for

regulating the heart-rate.

 

It is used for clove-sores and boils (can be seen as toxic heat in the

blood)

and for coughing and wheezing.

 

I think that Ren 6 and PC 6 are known better for regulating the heart-beat,

but I like the idea of the lung wrapping the pericardium.

 

K

 

 

On Mon, Jun 1, 2009 at 4:14 PM, mike Bowser <naturaldoc1 wrote:

 

>

>

>

>

> Stephano,

> Nice diagrams but after reading some of the information I do not agree with

> several of your conclusions. I hope my thoughts make some sense. Please feel

> free to add to or correct me as well.

> The Du Mai appears to have much more of a bodily influence then your

> suggestion. Please note that the San Jiao also lacks any physical organ but

> has a function, so the du mai is not alone in this matter.

> I am looking at my notes from a Kiiko Matsumoto seminar in 2007. She

> mentioned that the character for Du contains part of a radical that

> references " Te " or virtue as in the name Tao Te Jing. She also mentioned

> that the Du Mai was like a vine that wraps around a stake and is used as an

> anchor. This sounds to me a lot like the way the spinal muscles contract

> prior to other muscular movements, which is why I thought about the spinal

> nerves.

> One thought about the shen is it is necessary for control of all movements,

> then maybe the du channel that goes to the heart allows for shen to be

> involved and interconnected to govern.

> Other thoughts, as in the example of the du mai and its internal pathway

> with the heart, I came across mention in Giovanni's text on " The Channels of

> Acupuncture " where he discusses usage of Stomach 40, to access the Stomach

> Luo, to treat heart problems thus suggesting a stomach channel regulation of

> the heart as well, not sure if or how this works.

> BTW, from the same Kiiko seminar, it was mentioned that within the heart is

> ruled by the spleen. My thoughts on this would be related to the muscular

> wall inside the heart and that muscle is controlled by the spleen.

> Breathing is largely controlled by the phrenic nerve (diaphragm) and

> intercostal muscles in western science. The heart is innervated by spinal

> segments T1-T4 plus the vagus nerve. The du mai shu is located at a much

> lower segment then these. The shu point for the du is located upon the UB

> channel yet carries the name of the vessel running inside the spinal column

> and maybe it strengthens and/or relaxes this column. Maybe its organ is the

> spinal column. Just some thoughts.

>

> Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc

>

> To:

Chinese Medicine <Chinese Medicine%40yaho\

ogroups.com>

> stefanomarcelli <stefanomarcelli%40tiscali.it>

> Mon, 1 Jun 2009 18:37:38 +0000

> Two criteria for back-shu points (solution)

>

>

> Hi everyone.

>

> The organ related to the Dumai channel, deduced from the special position

> in the thorax of its point back-shu (Dushu, BL-16 between T6-T7 vertebrae),

> is suggested here:

>

> http://www.meso.it/BackShuPointsNewOutlook.EN.htm

>

> Friendly

>

> Stefano Marcelli

>

> Acupuncturist in Italy

>

>

>

>

________

> Hotmail® has a new way to see what's up with your friends.

>

>

http://windowslive.com/Tutorial/Hotmail/WhatsNew?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_HM_Tutorial_W\

hatsNew1_052009

>

>

[Guest guest]

Dear Michael,

thank for your compliment to my diagram :-)

I made only a observation with subsequent deduction. If you agree with the

first, you must not agree necessarily with the second. The system of acupuncture

channels is something more complex than we can imagine, but only because at the

moment invisible. As I said many times I think it is true, and in fact I found

something (apparently new) that many modern western doctors did not notice, in

despite of their western anatomy knowledge, e.g. the presence of a coil shape in

the seminal path quasi identical to that in along the kidney channel path in the

ankle.

At the moment my study on back-shus is concluded (?) only for the thorax ones.

Thanks for sharing your thoughts with me.

Friendly,

 

Stefano

 

 

Just some thoughts.

>

> Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc

[Guest guest]

Stephano,

No problem. I thought we might get to the channels eventually. For sake of

completeness, you might want to look at the anatomical research coming out of S.

Korea in the last few years. Dr. Soh and others have been publishing some very

interesting photos of structures, when stained, and this may eventually rock the

allopathic world. Free floating DNA, a type of bio-crystal, fluid movement in a

separate biological structure that goes in and out of the blood vessels and

lymph ducts and eventually is attached to the organs. Ever wonder about the

traditional ideas related to water bodies for the elemental points? I happen to

think it is more then a simple coincidence and not simply metaphor.

 

Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc

Chinese Medicine

stefanomarcelli

Tue, 2 Jun 2009 07:50:19 +0000

Re: Two criteria for back-shu points (solution)

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Dear Michael,

 

thank for your compliment to my diagram :-)

 

I made only a observation with subsequent deduction. If you agree with the

first, you must not agree necessarily with the second. The system of acupuncture

channels is something more complex than we can imagine, but only because at the

moment invisible. As I said many times I think it is true, and in fact I found

something (apparently new) that many modern western doctors did not notice, in

despite of their western anatomy knowledge, e.g. the presence of a coil shape in

the seminal path quasi identical to that in along the kidney channel path in the

ankle.

 

At the moment my study on back-shus is concluded (?) only for the thorax ones.

 

Thanks for sharing your thoughts with me.

 

Friendly,

 

 

 

Stefano

 

 

 

Just some thoughts.

 

>

 

> Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

_______________

Hotmail® has ever-growing storage! Don’t worry about storage limits.

http://windowslive.com/Tutorial/Hotmail/Storage?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_HM_Tutorial_St\

orage_062009

 

 

[Guest guest]

Dear John,

 

you are right.

Every day a bit more I think that when the illness began to lay a trap for the

mankind, the fire have been already discovered and widely used, the harmony lost

and the blindness settled in, therefore with rare wise exceptions, nobody were

able to see the channels any more.

PC-6 is the point that with SP4 opens the chongmai, we may trust it is so, the

experience of hundreds of ancient and modern doctors tell us yes it is so, but

(almost) noboby can say: " when I insert the needles in Neiguan and Gongsun I see

the chongmai channel opens. "

Ciao,

 

Stefano

 

 

Ling Tai (Du 10) located under T-6, doesn't have any classical indications

> I think that Ren 6 and PC 6 are known better for regulating the heart-beat,

> but I like the idea of the lung wrapping the pericardium.

>

> K

[Guest guest]

Hi Stefano

With all due respect...

I think your mixture of modern science with classical medicine is

a good example of why we shouldn't mix them

 

Fire is the Emperor and from it comes the mandate of life itself

if we want to know what triggers the beating of the Heart ~ it

can only be it's Mother = Wood

Thus we boost the Mother to supplement the Child as many

traditions never approach the Emperor directly

 

I think this approach of using modern medical thinking to try to

further Chinese medicine leads one astray

 

 

cool illustration though

 

Stephen Woodley LAc

 

--

http://www.fastmail.fm - Accessible with your email software

or over the web

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Dear Michael,

Thank you. I know very well the work of Prof. Soh

on the Bongwan System.

At the end of april, I wrote Prof. Kwan Soh in

regard of my observation about the coil in the

kidney channel.

I insert my message and his answer below.

If you want I could forward to your personal

address the full article he attached to his mail.

Ciao,

Stefano

 

----

Dear Stefano,

 

We consider your proposal is very interesting, and

probably can be corroborating with our anatomical

research.

 

The attached file is a review article for your

reference.

I hope your proposal be realized soon.

Sincerely yours,

kwan

 

2009/4/20 stefanomarcelli

<stefanomarcelli

Dear Kwang-Sup Soh, Biomedical Physics Laboratory,

 

I think you could be interested in this little new

anatomical observation on the kidney acupuncture

channel:

 

www.meso.it/circleinkidneychannel.en.htm

 

Waiting your opinion, thank in advance.

 

Dr Stefano Marcelli MD

Italy

 

---

 

Stephano,

No problem. I thought we might get to the

channels eventually. For sake of completeness,

you might want to look at the anatomical research

coming out of S. Korea in the last few years. Dr.

Soh and others have been publishing some very

interesting photos of structures, when stained,

and this may eventually rock the allopathic world.

Free floating DNA, a type of bio-crystal, fluid

movement in a separate biological structure that

goes in and out of the blood vessels and lymph

ducts and eventually is attached to the organs.

Ever wonder about the traditional ideas related to

water bodies for the elemental points? I happen

to think it is more then a simple coincidence and

not simply metaphor.

 

Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc

[Guest guest]

Stephano,

That would be very thoughtful of you. You may send it to this address. Thanks

 

Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc

 

 

> Chinese Medicine

> stefanomarcelli

> Tue, 2 Jun 2009 22:08:17 +0200

> RE: Two criteria for back-shu points (solution)

>

> Dear Michael,

> Thank you. I know very well the work of Prof. Soh

> on the Bongwan System.

> At the end of april, I wrote Prof. Kwan Soh in

> regard of my observation about the coil in the

> kidney channel.

> I insert my message and his answer below.

> If you want I could forward to your personal

> address the full article he attached to his mail.

> Ciao,

> Stefano

>

> ----

> Dear Stefano,

>

> We consider your proposal is very interesting, and

> probably can be corroborating with our anatomical

> research.

>

> The attached file is a review article for your

> reference.

> I hope your proposal be realized soon.

> Sincerely yours,

> kwan

>

> 2009/4/20 stefanomarcelli

> <stefanomarcelli

> Dear Kwang-Sup Soh, Biomedical Physics Laboratory,

>

> I think you could be interested in this little new

> anatomical observation on the kidney acupuncture

> channel:

>

> www.meso.it/circleinkidneychannel.en.htm

>

> Waiting your opinion, thank in advance.

>

> Dr Stefano Marcelli MD

> Italy

>

> ---

>

> Stephano,

> No problem. I thought we might get to the

> channels eventually. For sake of completeness,

> you might want to look at the anatomical research

> coming out of S. Korea in the last few years. Dr.

> Soh and others have been publishing some very

> interesting photos of structures, when stained,

> and this may eventually rock the allopathic world.

> Free floating DNA, a type of bio-crystal, fluid

> movement in a separate biological structure that

> goes in and out of the blood vessels and lymph

> ducts and eventually is attached to the organs.

> Ever wonder about the traditional ideas related to

> water bodies for the elemental points? I happen

> to think it is more then a simple coincidence and

> not simply metaphor.

>

> Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc

>

>

>

>

> ---

>

> Subscribe to the free online journal for TCM at Times

http://www.chinesemedicinetimes.com

>

> Help build the world's largest online encyclopedia for Chinese medicine and

acupuncture, click, http://www.chinesemedicinetimes.com/wiki/CMTpedia

>

>

and adjust

accordingly.

>

>

>

> Please consider the environment and only print this message if absolutely

necessary.

[Guest guest]

Dear Stephen,

Thank you for the due respect.

Now answer sincerely please:

“Could a TCM doctor living in 2009 not to use a

car?”.

TCM was an alternative medicine, now it is

complementary.

I pertain to those who WANT to mix Eastern with

Western knowledge.

[You can use my cool illustration, if you want or

need only quote my name.]

Always more friendly,

Stefano

 

 

Hi Stefano

With all due respect...

I think your mixture of modern science with

classical medicine is

a good example of why we shouldn't mix them

 

cool illustration though

 

Stephen Woodley LAc

[Guest guest]

Dear all:

 

--Stephano-

Now answer sincerely please:

“Could a TCM doctor living in 2009 not to use a

car?â€.

---

 

Ah, but Stefano, the TCM doctor will drive using the Yin Yang principles!!!

 

 

Hugo

 

 

________________________________

Hugo Ramiro

http://middlemedicine.wordpress.com

http://www.chinesemedicaltherapies.org

 

 

 

 

 

________________________________

stefanomarcelli <stefanomarcelli

Chinese Medicine

Tuesday, 2 June, 2009 16:53:36

RE: Two criteria for back-shu points (solution)

 

Dear Stephen,

Thank you for the due respect.

Now answer sincerely please:

“Could a TCM doctor living in 2009 not to use a

car?â€.

TCM was an alternative medicine, now it is

complementary.

I pertain to those who WANT to mix Eastern with

Western knowledge.

[You can use my cool illustration, if you want or

need only quote my name.]

Always more friendly,

Stefano

 

 

Hi Stefano

With all due respect...

I think your mixture of modern science with

classical medicine is

a good example of why we shouldn't mix them

 

cool illustration though

 

Stephen Woodley LAc

 

 

 

 

 

---

 

Subscribe to the free online journal for TCM at Times

http://www.chinesemedicinetimes.com

 

Help build the world's largest online encyclopedia for Chinese medicine and

acupuncture, click, http://www.chinesemedicinetimes.com/wiki/CMTpedia

 

 

and adjust

accordingly.

 

 

 

Please consider the environment and only print this message if absolutely

necessary.

[Guest guest]

Hi Stefano

Yes, I understand that many today believe that the mixture of

biomedicine with Chinese medicine produces something " superior "

I just don't agree

 

I like your inquiries

 

We all have our points of reference and I respect that yours is

different than mine...

I believe that the strongest medicine comes from thinking within the

symbolic vision passed down by the ancients. I try to stick to the

paradigm of yin~yang and 5 phase relationships.

I don't think the fact that I drive a car and use electricity means that

I have to superimpose my modern concepts on this medicine. I think that

conflation is the primary error committed by Western practitioners of

Chinese medicine.

But, again, I respect that your perspective is different from mine. We

can just agree to disagree

 

your inquiries and ideas show that you spend a bit of time contemplating

this medicine....kudos

 

 

Stephen Woodley LAc

 

 

--

http://www.fastmail.fm - Access your email from home and the web

[Guest guest]

The mixers vs straights, sounds familiar. Chiropractic is still battling with

this issue as well. I think that this happens when school curricula allow and

encourage such confusion and yet encourage ideas with little or basis.

In the US, TCM is considered both.

Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc

 

 

> Chinese Medicine

> stefanomarcelli

> Tue, 2 Jun 2009 22:53:36 +0200

> RE: Two criteria for back-shu points (solution)

>

> Dear Stephen,

> Thank you for the due respect.

> Now answer sincerely please:

> “Could a TCM doctor living in 2009 not to use a

> car?”.

> TCM was an alternative medicine, now it is

> complementary.

> I pertain to those who WANT to mix Eastern with

> Western knowledge.

> [You can use my cool illustration, if you want or

> need only quote my name.]

> Always more friendly,

> Stefano

>

>

> Hi Stefano

> With all due respect...

> I think your mixture of modern science with

> classical medicine is

> a good example of why we shouldn't mix them

>

> cool illustration though

>

> Stephen Woodley LAc

>

>

>

>

>

> ---

>

> Subscribe to the free online journal for TCM at Times

http://www.chinesemedicinetimes.com

>

> Help build the world's largest online encyclopedia for Chinese medicine and

acupuncture, click, http://www.chinesemedicinetimes.com/wiki/CMTpedia

>

>

and adjust

accordingly.

>

>

>

> Please consider the environment and only print this message if absolutely

necessary.

[Guest guest]

Dear Stephen,

if you trust Giovanni Maciocia as a well reputed

author and a TCM doctor, you must meditating a bit

on this assertion in the Preface of his book

“Foundations…”:

 

“Although the modern Chinese, with their

materialistic philosophical orientation, have

ignored or glossed over certain aspects of Chinese

medicine, credit must be given to them for

carrying out a useful and important

systematization of the theory of Chinese medicine.

Moreover, we should not think that everything

contained in the old classics is a pearl of

wisdom. Even the greatest Chinese doctors such as

Li Shi Zhen or Sun Si Miao clung to old

superstitious beliefs and used some bizarre

substances in their clinical practice. For

example, Li Shi Zhen included the rope of a

suicide victim as a medicinal ''drug''. I feel we

should be grateful for the work of modern Chinese

doctors and teachers in sifting out such worthless

aspects from the old classics.”

 

On the contrary of Maciocia and maybe of you, I

think that something of very subtle body’s matters

of the suicide victim will remain over and inside

the rope, and for this reason it should have

therapeutic properties, but now even Maciocia,

even you, even Master Tong are not able to see

what matters are and how they should works. Keep

in mind that the moment of the suicide generate

surely a world of brain defensive substances, and

surely the erection in the males.

“Bizzarre substance” you call them, dear Giovanni,

I love you very much, this is clear, but isn’t the

tortoise-shell enough a “bizarre substance”? And

what to call some boiled horns that Stephen and

you almost certainly prescribe? They are full of

important proteins, but also the menstruation

blood and my ancestors pulverized corps are full

of proteins, calcium, iron and so on…!

I speak for me, dear Stephen, I feel that if I

don’t mix West and East, old and modern knowledge,

I could become poor or fanatic.

 

Ciao and thank you for giving me the opportunity

to become better.

 

Stefano

 

---

 

Hi Stefano

I think that

conflation is the primary error committed by

Western practitioners of

Chinese medicine.

 

your inquiries and ideas show that you spend a bit

of time contemplating

this medicine....kudos

 

Stephen Woodley LAc

[Guest guest]

Stefano,

 

there are some people out there who discredit all of Chinese medicine,

because of a few strange herbal recipes,

but what about the modern usage of pregnant mare urine (premarin) ?

Isn't that strange too?

 

I agree that animal and insect medicine can be very powerful.

We only observe the effects. The what.

 

The how is what modern science is for.

 

The why is for theologians.

 

K

 

 

 

2009/6/3 stefanomarcelli <stefanomarcelli

 

> Dear Stephen,

> if you trust Giovanni Maciocia as a well reputed

> author and a TCM doctor, you must meditating a bit

> on this assertion in the Preface of his book

> “Foundations…”:

>

> “Although the modern Chinese, with their

> materialistic philosophical orientation, have

> ignored or glossed over certain aspects of Chinese

> medicine, credit must be given to them for

> carrying out a useful and important

> systematization of the theory of Chinese medicine.

> Moreover, we should not think that everything

> contained in the old classics is a pearl of

> wisdom. Even the greatest Chinese doctors such as

> Li Shi Zhen or Sun Si Miao clung to old

> superstitious beliefs and used some bizarre

> substances in their clinical practice. For

> example, Li Shi Zhen included the rope of a

> suicide victim as a medicinal ''drug''. I feel we

> should be grateful for the work of modern Chinese

> doctors and teachers in sifting out such worthless

> aspects from the old classics.”

>

> On the contrary of Maciocia and maybe of you, I

> think that something of very subtle body’s matters

> of the suicide victim will remain over and inside

> the rope, and for this reason it should have

> therapeutic properties, but now even Maciocia,

> even you, even Master Tong are not able to see

> what matters are and how they should works. Keep

> in mind that the moment of the suicide generate

> surely a world of brain defensive substances, and

> surely the erection in the males.

> “Bizzarre substance” you call them, dear Giovanni,

> I love you very much, this is clear, but isn’t the

> tortoise-shell enough a “bizarre substance”? And

> what to call some boiled horns that Stephen and

> you almost certainly prescribe? They are full of

> important proteins, but also the menstruation

> blood and my ancestors pulverized corps are full

> of proteins, calcium, iron and so on…!

> I speak for me, dear Stephen, I feel that if I

> don’t mix West and East, old and modern knowledge,

> I could become poor or fanatic.

>

> Ciao and thank you for giving me the opportunity

> to become better.

>

> Stefano

>

> ---

>

> Hi Stefano

> I think that

> conflation is the primary error committed by

> Western practitioners of

> Chinese medicine.

>

> your inquiries and ideas show that you spend a bit

> of time contemplating

> this medicine....kudos

>

> Stephen Woodley LAc

>

>

>

>

> ---

>

> Subscribe to the free online journal for TCM at Times

> http://www.chinesemedicinetimes.com

>

> Help build the world's largest online encyclopedia for Chinese medicine and

> acupuncture, click, http://www.chinesemedicinetimes.com/wiki/CMTpedia

>

>

> and adjust

> accordingly.

>

> Messages are the property of the author. Any duplication outside the group

> requires prior permission from the author.

>

> Please consider the environment and only print this message if absolutely

> necessary.

[Guest guest]

John.

 

Just out of curiosity. As TCM practitioners, do we observe the " what " ,

the " how " , or the " why " ? I feel that there is room for all three.

 

Anne Biris

 

Sent from my iPhone

 

On Jun 3, 2009, at 9:28 AM, <johnkokko wrote:

 

> Stefano,

>

> there are some people out there who discredit all of Chinese medicine,

> because of a few strange herbal recipes,

> but what about the modern usage of pregnant mare urine (premarin) ?

> Isn't that strange too?

>

> I agree that animal and insect medicine can be very powerful.

> We only observe the effects. The what.

>

> The how is what modern science is for.

>

> The why is for theologians.

>

> K

>

>

>

> 2009/6/3 stefanomarcelli <stefanomarcelli

>

>> Dear Stephen,

>> if you trust Giovanni Maciocia as a well reputed

>> author and a TCM doctor, you must meditating a bit

>> on this assertion in the Preface of his book

>> “Foundations…â€:

>>

>> “Although the modern Chinese, with their

>> materialistic philosophical orientation, have

>> ignored or glossed over certain aspects of Chinese

>> medicine, credit must be given to them for

>> carrying out a useful and important

>> systematization of the theory of Chinese medicine.

>> Moreover, we should not think that everything

>> contained in the old classics is a pearl of

>> wisdom. Even the greatest Chinese doctors such as

>> Li Shi Zhen or Sun Si Miao clung to old

>> superstitious beliefs and used some bizarre

>> substances in their clinical practice. For

>> example, Li Shi Zhen included the rope of a

>> suicide victim as a medicinal ''drug''. I feel we

>> should be grateful for the work of modern Chinese

>> doctors and teachers in sifting out such worthless

>> aspects from the old classics.â€

>>

>> On the contrary of Maciocia and maybe of you, I

>> think that something of very subtle body’s matters

>> of the suicide victim will remain over and inside

>> the rope, and for this reason it should have

>> therapeutic properties, but now even Maciocia,

>> even you, even Master Tong are not able to see

>> what matters are and how they should works. Keep

>> in mind that the moment of the suicide generate

>> surely a world of brain defensive substances, and

>> surely the erection in the males.

>> “Bizzarre substance†you call them, dear Giovanni,

>> I love you very much, this is clear, but isn’t the

>> tortoise-shell enough a “bizarre substance� And

>> what to call some boiled horns that Stephen and

>> you almost certainly prescribe? They are full of

>> important proteins, but also the menstruation

>> blood and my ancestors pulverized corps are full

>> of proteins, calcium, iron and so on…!

>> I speak for me, dear Stephen, I feel that if I

>> don’t mix West and East, old and modern knowledge,

>> I could become poor or fanatic.

>>

>> Ciao and thank you for giving me the opportunity

>> to become better.

>>

>> Stefano

>>

>> ---

>>

>> Hi Stefano

>> I think that

>> conflation is the primary error committed by

>> Western practitioners of

>> Chinese medicine.

>>

>> your inquiries and ideas show that you spend a bit

>> of time contemplating

>> this medicine....kudos

>>

>> Stephen Woodley LAc

>>

>>

>>

>>

>> ---

>>

>> Subscribe to the free online journal for TCM at

>> Times

>> http://www.chinesemedicinetimes.com

>>

>> Help build the world's largest online encyclopedia for Chinese

>> medicine and

>> acupuncture, click, http://www.chinesemedicinetimes.com/wiki/CMTpedia

>>

>>

>> and

>> adjust

>> accordingly.

>>

>> Messages are the property of the author. Any duplication outside

>> the group

>> requires prior permission from the author.

>>

>> Please consider the environment and only print this message if

>> absolutely

>> necessary.

[Guest guest]

Hi Stefano

It's just an exchange of ideas and opinions

seems like the way I presented mine might have offended you...if so, I

apologize as it was unintentional

 

as I mentioned, I do like the fact that you are obviously " chewing " on

this and looking for deeper understanding...I just have a different take

on it.

 

A couple friends of mine are smiling about the Giovanni reference as -

NO - I do not follow him.

 

I am familiar with the preface.... I find it disappointingly

ethnocentric to criticize another cultures beliefs as " superstitious " -

but that is just me... many modern people think that the medicine I

practice is based on " superstition " so................

 

And no, I do not care about what chemicals or active ingredients are in

any of the medicinals I use...only their proper combination and

application

 

I hope to see more posts from you as it's the people with differing

opinions that make me think the most

 

 

Stephen Woodley LAc

 

 

--

http://www.fastmail.fm - mmm... Fastmail...

[Guest guest]

Anne,

 

Yes.... we are scientists and philosophers too...

hopefully we are multi-faceted integral humans.

.... probably our medicine requires all of this.

 

A friend showed me a passage from S. Wilms translation of Sun Si Miao

on Gynecology... in the intro, Sun Si Miao says what is required learning

for a medical practitioner (separate from ethics)...

reading of the classics, understanding of the I jing, Climatology and

Astrology

and the Daoist, Buddhist and Confucian canon.

 

That's enough investigation for many lifetimes.

K

 

On Wed, Jun 3, 2009 at 6:41 AM, Anne Biris <lotuskarma wrote:

 

>

>

> John.

>

> Just out of curiosity. As TCM practitioners, do we observe the " what " ,

> the " how " , or the " why " ? I feel that there is room for all three.

>

> Anne Biris

>

> Sent from my iPhone

>

>

> On Jun 3, 2009, at 9:28 AM,

<johnkokko<johnkokko%40gmail.com>>

> wrote:

>

> > Stefano,

> >

> > there are some people out there who discredit all of Chinese medicine,

> > because of a few strange herbal recipes,

> > but what about the modern usage of pregnant mare urine (premarin) ?

> > Isn't that strange too?

> >

> > I agree that animal and insect medicine can be very powerful.

> > We only observe the effects. The what.

> >

> > The how is what modern science is for.

> >

> > The why is for theologians.

> >

> > K

> >

> >

> >

> > 2009/6/3 stefanomarcelli

<stefanomarcelli<stefanomarcelli%40tiscali.it>

> >

> >

> >> Dear Stephen,

> >> if you trust Giovanni Maciocia as a well reputed

> >> author and a TCM doctor, you must meditating a bit

> >> on this assertion in the Preface of his book

> >> “Foundations…”:

> >>

> >> “Although the modern Chinese, with their

> >> materialistic philosophical orientation, have

> >> ignored or glossed over certain aspects of Chinese

> >> medicine, credit must be given to them for

> >> carrying out a useful and important

> >> systematization of the theory of Chinese medicine.

> >> Moreover, we should not think that everything

> >> contained in the old classics is a pearl of

> >> wisdom. Even the greatest Chinese doctors such as

> >> Li Shi Zhen or Sun Si Miao clung to old

> >> superstitious beliefs and used some bizarre

> >> substances in their clinical practice. For

> >> example, Li Shi Zhen included the rope of a

> >> suicide victim as a medicinal ''drug''. I feel we

> >> should be grateful for the work of modern Chinese

> >> doctors and teachers in sifting out such worthless

> >> aspects from the old classics.”

> >>

> >> On the contrary of Maciocia and maybe of you, I

> >> think that something of very subtle body’s matters

> >> of the suicide victim will remain over and inside

> >> the rope, and for this reason it should have

> >> therapeutic properties, but now even Maciocia,

> >> even you, even Master Tong are not able to see

> >> what matters are and how they should works. Keep

> >> in mind that the moment of the suicide generate

> >> surely a world of brain defensive substances, and

> >> surely the erection in the males.

> >> “Bizzarre substance” you call them, dear Giovanni,

> >> I love you very much, this is clear, but isn’t the

> >> tortoise-shell enough a “bizarre substance”? And

> >> what to call some boiled horns that Stephen and

> >> you almost certainly prescribe? They are full of

> >> important proteins, but also the menstruation

> >> blood and my ancestors pulverized corps are full

> >> of proteins, calcium, iron and so on…!

> >> I speak for me, dear Stephen, I feel that if I

> >> don’t mix West and East, old and modern knowledge,

> >> I could become poor or fanatic.

> >>

> >> Ciao and thank you for giving me the opportunity

> >> to become better.

> >>

> >> Stefano

> >>

> >> ---

> >>

> >> Hi Stefano

> >> I think that

> >> conflation is the primary error committed by

> >> Western practitioners of

> >> Chinese medicine.

> >>

> >> your inquiries and ideas show that you spend a bit

> >> of time contemplating

> >> this medicine....kudos

> >>

> >> Stephen Woodley LAc

> >>

> >>

> >>

> >>

> >> ---

> >>

> >> Subscribe to the free online journal for TCM at

> >> Times

> >> http://www.chinesemedicinetimes.com

> >>

> >> Help build the world's largest online encyclopedia for Chinese

> >> medicine and

> >> acupuncture, click, http://www.chinesemedicinetimes.com/wiki/CMTpedia

> >>

> >>

> >> and

> >> adjust

> >> accordingly.

> >>

> >> Messages are the property of the author. Any duplication outside

> >> the group

> >> requires prior permission from the author.

> >>

> >> Please consider the environment and only print this message if

> >> absolutely

> >> necessary.

[Guest guest]

Hi Stephen.

You have not offended me. Absolutely not.

I apologize for my English, probably not enough

advanced to express my emotions and my ideas

adequately. I love everyone by default, and when I

fight with someone, is only within a constructive

criticism. I have appreciate you as a friend. I am

a MD but I disagree with the chemical drug as

first choice. I love to take TCM herbs, I eat

organic food as it is possible. I drive a car, of

course :-). Also in western medicine there are

other much better than this.

I'm very happy to receive your messages, don't

worry. I should want to see the channels, and I'm

searching the way to do it.

You will see my other posts, this group is an ever

green land for me. Thank you Stephen, thank

Attilio!

Ciao,

Stefano

 

---

 

Hi Stefano

It's just an exchange of ideas and opinions

seems like the way I presented mine might have

offended you...if so, I

apologize as it was unintentional

And no, I do not care about what chemicals or

active ingredients are in

any of the medicinals I use...only their proper

combination and

application

 

I hope to see more posts from you as it's the

people with differing

opinions that make me think the most

 

Stephen Woodley LAc

[Guest guest]

John,

Couldn't agree more. The 'vast treasure-house' of Chinese

medicine can take lifetimes to explore. Not to say that one cannot

study other forms of medicine as well, but our focus has to be in the

treasure-house in order to excell in what we do. .

 

 

 

On Jun 3, 2009, at 12:44 PM, wrote:

 

> Anne,

>

> Yes.... we are scientists and philosophers too...

> hopefully we are multi-faceted integral humans.

> ... probably our medicine requires all of this.

>

> A friend showed me a passage from S. Wilms translation of Sun Si Miao

> on Gynecology... in the intro, Sun Si Miao says what is required

> learning

> for a medical practitioner (separate from ethics)...

> reading of the classics, understanding of the I jing, Climatology and

> Astrology

> and the Daoist, Buddhist and Confucian canon.

>

> That's enough investigation for many lifetimes.

> K

>

> On Wed, Jun 3, 2009 at 6:41 AM, Anne Biris <lotuskarma

> wrote:

>

>>

>>

>> John.

>>

>> Just out of curiosity. As TCM practitioners, do we observe the

>> " what " ,

>> the " how " , or the " why " ? I feel that there is room for all three.

>>

>> Anne Biris

>>

>> Sent from my iPhone

>>

>>

>> On Jun 3, 2009, at 9:28 AM,

>> <johnkokko<johnkokko%40gmail.com>>

>> wrote:

>>

>>> Stefano,

>>>

>>> there are some people out there who discredit all of Chinese

>>> medicine,

>>> because of a few strange herbal recipes,

>>> but what about the modern usage of pregnant mare urine (premarin) ?

>>> Isn't that strange too?

>>>

>>> I agree that animal and insect medicine can be very powerful.

>>> We only observe the effects. The what.

>>>

>>> The how is what modern science is for.

>>>

>>> The why is for theologians.

>>>

>>> K

>>>

>>>

>>>

>>> 2009/6/3 stefanomarcelli

>>> <stefanomarcelli<stefanomarcelli%40tiscali.it>

>>>

>>>

>>>> Dear Stephen,

>>>> if you trust Giovanni Maciocia as a well reputed

>>>> author and a TCM doctor, you must meditating a bit

>>>> on this assertion in the Preface of his book

>>>> “Foundations

> ”:

>>>>

>>>> “Although the modern Chinese, with their

>>>> materialistic philosophical orientation, have

>>>> ignored or glossed over certain aspects of Chinese

>>>> medicine, credit must be given to them for

>>>> carrying out a useful and important

>>>> systematization of the theory of Chinese medicine.

>>>> Moreover, we should not think that everything

>>>> contained in the old classics is a pearl of

>>>> wisdom. Even the greatest Chinese doctors such as

>>>> Li Shi Zhen or Sun Si Miao clung to old

>>>> superstitious beliefs and used some bizarre

>>>> substances in their clinical practice. For

>>>> example, Li Shi Zhen included the rope of a

>>>> suicide victim as a medicinal ''drug''. I feel we

>>>> should be grateful for the work of modern Chinese

>>>> doctors and teachers in sifting out such worthless

>>>> aspects from the old classics.”

>>>>

>>>> On the contrary of Maciocia and maybe of you, I

>>>> think that something of very subtle body’s matters

>>>> of the suicide victim will remain over and inside

>>>> the rope, and for this reason it should have

>>>> therapeutic properties, but now even Maciocia,

>>>> even you, even Master Tong are not able to see

>>>> what matters are and how they should works. Keep

>>>> in mind that the moment of the suicide generate

>>>> surely a world of brain defensive substances, and

>>>> surely the erection in the males.

>>>> “Bizzarre substance” you call them, dear Giovanni,

>>>> I love you very much, this is clear, but isn’t the

>>>> tortoise-shell enough a “bizarre substance”? And

>>>> what to call some boiled horns that Stephen and

>>>> you almost certainly prescribe? They are full of

>>>> important proteins, but also the menstruation

>>>> blood and my ancestors pulverized corps are full

>>>> of proteins, calcium, iron and so on

> !

>>>> I speak for me, dear Stephen, I feel that if I

>>>> don’t mix West and East, old and modern knowledge,

>>>> I could become poor or fanatic.

>>>>

>>>> Ciao and thank you for giving me the opportunity

>>>> to become better.

>>>>

>>>> Stefano

>>>>

>>>> ---

>>>>

>>>> Hi Stefano

>>>> I think that

>>>> conflation is the primary error committed by

>>>> Western practitioners of

>>>> Chinese medicine.

>>>>

>>>> your inquiries and ideas show that you spend a bit

>>>> of time contemplating

>>>> this medicine....kudos

>>>>

>>>> Stephen Woodley LAc

>>>>

>>>>

>>>>

>>>>

>>>> ---

>>>>

>>>> Subscribe to the free online journal for TCM at

>>>> Times

>>>> http://www.chinesemedicinetimes.com

>>>>

>>>> Help build the world's largest online encyclopedia for Chinese

>>>> medicine and

>>>> acupuncture, click, http://www.chinesemedicinetimes.com/wiki/CMTpedia

>>>>

>>>>

>>>> and

>>>> adjust

>>>> accordingly.

>>>>

>>>> Messages are the property of the author. Any duplication outside

>>>> the group

>>>> requires prior permission from the author.

>>>>

>>>> Please consider the environment and only print this message if

>>>> absolutely

>>>> necessary.

[Guest guest]

Z'ev and John,

 

I also agree. What could be better than working in a field that

allows us to continually grow. So many facets / branches just within

TCM. Speaking of Sun Si Miao, he is one of my earliest and remaining

inspirations. Mainly because he did so much work with women and

children. Not only was he rigorous in his methods of finding answers

he was also a humanitarian!!!

 

Anne Biris

 

 

On Jun 3, 2009, at 9:49 PM, wrote:

 

>

>

> John,

> Couldn't agree more. The 'vast treasure-house' of Chinese

> medicine can take lifetimes to explore. Not to say that one cannot

> study other forms of medicine as well, but our focus has to be in the

> treasure-house in order to excell in what we do. .

>

>

>

> On Jun 3, 2009, at 12:44 PM, wrote:

>

> > Anne,

> >

> > Yes.... we are scientists and philosophers too...

> > hopefully we are multi-faceted integral humans.

> > ... probably our medicine requires all of this.

> >

> > A friend showed me a passage from S. Wilms translation of Sun Si

> Miao

> > on Gynecology... in the intro, Sun Si Miao says what is required

> > learning

> > for a medical practitioner (separate from ethics)...

> > reading of the classics, understanding of the I jing, Climatology

> and

> > Astrology

> > and the Daoist, Buddhist and Confucian canon.

> >

> > That's enough investigation for many lifetimes.

> > K

> >

> > On Wed, Jun 3, 2009 at 6:41 AM, Anne Biris <lotuskarma

> > wrote:

> >

> >>

> >>

> >> John.

> >>

> >> Just out of curiosity. As TCM practitioners, do we observe the

> >> " what " ,

> >> the " how " , or the " why " ? I feel that there is room for all three.

> >>

> >> Anne Biris

> >>

> >> Sent from my iPhone

> >>

> >>

> >> On Jun 3, 2009, at 9:28 AM,

> >> <johnkokko<johnkokko%40gmail.com>>

> >> wrote:

> >>

> >>> Stefano,

> >>>

> >>> there are some people out there who discredit all of Chinese

> >>> medicine,

> >>> because of a few strange herbal recipes,

> >>> but what about the modern usage of pregnant mare urine

> (premarin) ?

> >>> Isn't that strange too?

> >>>

> >>> I agree that animal and insect medicine can be very powerful.

> >>> We only observe the effects. The what.

> >>>

> >>> The how is what modern science is for.

> >>>

> >>> The why is for theologians.

> >>>

> >>> K

> >>>

> >>>

> >>>

> >>> 2009/6/3 stefanomarcelli

> >>> <stefanomarcelli<stefanomarcelli%40tiscali.it>

> >>>

> >>>

> >>>> Dear Stephen,

> >>>> if you trust Giovanni Maciocia as a well reputed

> >>>> author and a TCM doctor, you must meditating a bit

> >>>> on this assertion in the Preface of his book

> >>>> “Foundations

> > ”:

> >>>>

> >>>> “Although the modern Chinese, with their

> >>>> materialistic philosophical orientation, have

> >>>> ignored or glossed over certain aspects of Chinese

> >>>> medicine, credit must be given to them for

> >>>> carrying out a useful and important

> >>>> systematization of the theory of Chinese medicine.

> >>>> Moreover, we should not think that everything

> >>>> contained in the old classics is a pearl of

> >>>> wisdom. Even the greatest Chinese doctors such as

> >>>> Li Shi Zhen or Sun Si Miao clung to old

> >>>> superstitious beliefs and used some bizarre

> >>>> substances in their clinical practice. For

> >>>> example, Li Shi Zhen included the rope of a

> >>>> suicide victim as a medicinal ''drug''. I feel we

> >>>> should be grateful for the work of modern Chinese

> >>>> doctors and teachers in sifting out such worthless

> >>>> aspects from the old classics.”

> >>>>

> >>>> On the contrary of Maciocia and maybe of you, I

> >>>> think that something of very subtle body’s matters

> >>>> of the suicide victim will remain over and inside

> >>>> the rope, and for this reason it should have

> >>>> therapeutic properties, but now even Maciocia,

> >>>> even you, even Master Tong are not able to see

> >>>> what matters are and how they should works. Keep

> >>>> in mind that the moment of the suicide generate

> >>>> surely a world of brain defensive substances, and

> >>>> surely the erection in the males.

> >>>> “Bizzarre substance” you call them, dear Giovanni,

> >>>> I love you very much, this is clear, but isn’t the

> >>>> tortoise-shell enough a “bizarre substance”? And

> >>>> what to call some boiled horns that Stephen and

> >>>> you almost certainly prescribe? They are full of

> >>>> important proteins, but also the menstruation

> >>>> blood and my ancestors pulverized corps are full

> >>>> of proteins, calcium, iron and so on

> > !

> >>>> I speak for me, dear Stephen, I feel that if I

> >>>> don’t mix West and East, old and modern knowledge,

> >>>> I could become poor or fanatic.

> >>>>

> >>>> Ciao and thank you for giving me the opportunity

> >>>> to become better.

> >>>>

> >>>> Stefano

> >>>>

> >>>> ---

> >>>>

> >>>> Hi Stefano

> >>>> I think that

> >>>> conflation is the primary error committed by

> >>>> Western practitioners of

> >>>> Chinese medicine.

> >>>>

> >>>> your inquiries and ideas show that you spend a bit

> >>>> of time contemplating

> >>>> this medicine....kudos

> >>>>

> >>>> Stephen Woodley LAc

> >>>>

> >>>>

> >>>>

> >>>>

> >>>> ---

> >>>>

> >>>> Subscribe to the free online journal for TCM at

> >>>> Times

> >>>> http://www.chinesemedicinetimes.com

> >>>>

> >>>> Help build the world's largest online encyclopedia for Chinese

> >>>> medicine and

> >>>> acupuncture, click, http://www.chinesemedicinetimes.com/wiki/CMTpedia

> >>>>

> >>>>

> >>>>

> and

> >>>> adjust

> >>>> accordingly.

> >>>>

> >>>> Messages are the property of the author. Any duplication outside

> >>>> the group

> >>>> requires prior permission from the author.

> >>>>

> >>>> Please consider the environment and only print this message if

> >>>> absolutely

> >>>> necessary.