Guest guest Posted May 31, 2009 Report Share Posted May 31, 2009 Dear friends hi everyone. Remember the www.meso.it/circleinkidneychannel.en.htm ? I am back again with another (I'm supposing) new observation in the acupuncture field. But... before I show it to the group, someone must attempt to answer the following question: Does the Dumai channel have a corresponding organ? If so what is it? Go on... Ciao, Stefano ------- Stefano Marcelli MD acupuncturist and mesoterapist in Italy independent researcher in acupuncture ------- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 31, 2009 Report Share Posted May 31, 2009 The Du mai is the sea of yang... so doesn't it correspond to all of the yang fu organs in a sense? (all yang channels meet with the Du channel at Du 14 and Du 20) In Deadman, the primary Du pathway enters the brain The first branch of the Du enters the KD The second branch connects with the HT (looks very similar to the Ren channel trajectory) The third branch enters the brain and the KD Stefano, Looking forward to your next hypothesis. Any progression on your last one about the KD channel? K On Sun, May 31, 2009 at 12:44 PM, Stefano Marcelli <smarcelliwrote: > > > Dear friends hi everyone. > Remember the www.meso.it/circleinkidneychannel.en.htm ? > I am back again with another (I'm supposing) new observation in the > acupuncture field. > But... before I show it to the group, someone must attempt to answer the > followi > Does the Dumai channel have a corresponding organ? If so what is it? > Go on... > > Ciao, > > Stefano > > ------- > Stefano Marcelli MD > acupuncturist and mesoterapist in Italy > independent researcher in acupuncture > ------- > > > -- Turtle Island Integrative Health TCM Review director CA State Board Prep Courses www.tcmreview.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 31, 2009 Report Share Posted May 31, 2009 Dear John, thank you very much for your answer. You studied acupuncture very well and in one of your sentences (from Deadman) is partially indicated the path of my discovery. The organisation-disposition of back-shu points follows two criteria, that are very diffent in the thorax and in abdomen. The diafragm (geshu BL-17 Th7-Th8) which separates the two container, separate also the two criteria, because the thoracig organs group has his specific movement, as the abdominal organs group has its own. The corresponding organ of Dumai channel is not the heart that has its own channel and back-shu point (xinshu BL-15 Th5-Th6). But you wrote " The second branch (of Dumai) connects with the HT " . So... we are waiting some other skill responses before revealing the new outlook on the back-shu points. Ciao, thanks again. Stefano Chinese Medicine , <johnkokko wrote: > > The Du mai is the sea of yang... > so doesn't it correspond to all of the yang fu organs in a sense? > (all yang channels meet with the Du channel at Du 14 and Du 20) > > In Deadman, the primary Du pathway enters the brain > The first branch of the Du enters the KD > The second branch connects with the HT (looks very similar to the Ren > channel trajectory) > The third branch enters the brain and the KD > > Stefano, > Looking forward to your next hypothesis. > Any progression on your last one about the KD channel? > > K > > > > On Sun, May 31, 2009 at 12:44 PM, Stefano Marcelli <smarcelliwrote: > > > > > > > Dear friends hi everyone. > > Remember the www.meso.it/circleinkidneychannel.en.htm ? > > I am back again with another (I'm supposing) new observation in the > > acupuncture field. > > But... before I show it to the group, someone must attempt to answer the > > followi > > Does the Dumai channel have a corresponding organ? If so what is it? > > Go on... > > > > Ciao, > > > > Stefano > > > > ------- > > Stefano Marcelli MD > > acupuncturist and mesoterapist in Italy > > independent researcher in acupuncture > > ------- > > > > > > > > > > -- > > Turtle Island Integrative Health > > > TCM Review director > CA State Board Prep Courses > www.tcmreview.com > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 1, 2009 Report Share Posted June 1, 2009 Or we could consider that the channels are indeed vessels, no? Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc Chinese Medicine johnkokko Sun, 31 May 2009 15:06:52 -0700 Re: Two criteria for back-shu points The Du mai is the sea of yang... so doesn't it correspond to all of the yang fu organs in a sense? (all yang channels meet with the Du channel at Du 14 and Du 20) In Deadman, the primary Du pathway enters the brain The first branch of the Du enters the KD The second branch connects with the HT (looks very similar to the Ren channel trajectory) The third branch enters the brain and the KD Stefano, Looking forward to your next hypothesis. Any progression on your last one about the KD channel? K On Sun, May 31, 2009 at 12:44 PM, Stefano Marcelli <smarcelliwrote: > > > Dear friends hi everyone. > Remember the www.meso.it/circleinkidneychannel.en.htm ? > I am back again with another (I'm supposing) new observation in the > acupuncture field. > But... before I show it to the group, someone must attempt to answer the > followi > Does the Dumai channel have a corresponding organ? If so what is it? > Go on... > > Ciao, > > Stefano > > ------- > Stefano Marcelli MD > acupuncturist and mesoterapist in Italy > independent researcher in acupuncture > ------- > > > -- Turtle Island Integrative Health TCM Review director CA State Board Prep Courses www.tcmreview.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 1, 2009 Report Share Posted June 1, 2009 Hi. I like this thread. Following the flow, it goes to the brain, to the kidney, to the heart, and then on. As it flows, it meets energy;at centers it pools and collects and gushes and walks gently; like blood flowing, it goes thru the lungs and is changed, thru the liver, and is changed, thru the heart or brain and changes a bit. Still, it is present and flowing thru all the time, within ebbs and flows of strength. The centrifigal and centripital holographic images of all the body does simultaneously; why does the colon ascend, transverse and descend? Circling the naval. The pure and impure is such a crazy dance in the human body. --- On Sun, 5/31/09, mike Bowser <naturaldoc1 wrote: mike Bowser <naturaldoc1 RE: Two criteria for back-shu points Chinese Traditional Medicine Sunday, May 31, 2009, 10:50 PM Or we could consider that the channels are indeed vessels, no? Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc johnkokko (AT) gmail (DOT) com Sun, 31 May 2009 15:06:52 -0700 Re: Two criteria for back-shu points The Du mai is the sea of yang... so doesn't it correspond to all of the yang fu organs in a sense? (all yang channels meet with the Du channel at Du 14 and Du 20) In Deadman, the primary Du pathway enters the brain The first branch of the Du enters the KD The second branch connects with the HT (looks very similar to the Ren channel trajectory) The third branch enters the brain and the KD Stefano, Looking forward to your next hypothesis. Any progression on your last one about the KD channel? K On Sun, May 31, 2009 at 12:44 PM, Stefano Marcelli <smarcelli (AT) tiscali (DOT) it>wrote: > > > Dear friends hi everyone. > Remember the www.meso.it/ circleinkidneych annel.en. htm ? > I am back again with another (I'm supposing) new observation in the > acupuncture field. > But... before I show it to the group, someone must attempt to answer the > followi > Does the Dumai channel have a corresponding organ? If so what is it? > Go on... > > Ciao, > > Stefano > > ------------ --------- --------- --------- - > Stefano Marcelli MD > acupuncturist and mesoterapist in Italy > independent researcher in acupuncture > ------------ --------- --------- --------- - > > > -- Turtle Island Integrative Health www.turtleclinic. com TCM Review director CA State Board Prep Courses www.tcmreview. com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 1, 2009 Report Share Posted June 1, 2009 Dear Michael, thank you. Yes we could consider that the channels are indeed vessels, keeping in consideration that for the old Chinese " mai " is a channel that transport either qi and blood in different proportion, depending from the organ that generates it. If the dumai channel has a specific organ to which is related must be only an organ that " governs " . As has just reminded, Dumai enter the kidney, the brain, the heart. In your opinion what of these entered entities does " govern " the body much? The second, maybe the first name of Dumai is " Governor Vessel " . For the verb " du " ww.nciku.com gives only the meaning " supervise " , my old David Crook dictionary gives " superintend and direct " . If the back-shu points are " the points in the back where qi of the respective zangfu organ is infused " and " in close proximity to their respective zangfu organ " (Prof. Di Ling) the dushu respective organ is neither the brain, nor the kidney, nor the heart, but the only organ of the body that " governs " , anatomically speaking the most internal one, at least in the thorax. What are thinking about the other professionals, the most skilled voices in the group? The riddle goes on... Ciao, Stefano PS: From thefreedictionary.com " supervise " 1. to direct the performance or operation of (an activity or a process) 2. to watch over (people) so as to ensure appropriate behaviour [Latin super- over + videre to see] " govern " 1. to direct the performance or operation of (an activity or a process) 2. to watch over (people) so as to ensure appropriate behaviour [Latin super- over + videre to see] Stefano > Or we could consider that the channels are indeed vessels, no? > > Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc > > Chinese Medicine > johnkokko > Sun, 31 May 2009 15:06:52 -0700 > Re: Two criteria for back-shu points Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 1, 2009 Report Share Posted June 1, 2009 Curious Organs. david Chinese Medicine , " Stefano Marcelli " <smarcelli wrote: > > Dear friends hi everyone. > Remember the www.meso.it/circleinkidneychannel.en.htm ? > I am back again with another (I'm supposing) new observation in the acupuncture field. > But... before I show it to the group, someone must attempt to answer the following question: > > Does the Dumai channel have a corresponding organ? If so what is it? > Go on... > > Ciao, > > Stefano > > ------- > Stefano Marcelli MD > acupuncturist and mesoterapist in Italy > independent researcher in acupuncture > ------- > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 1, 2009 Report Share Posted June 1, 2009 Jeffrey Yuen also talks about the Du mai as the " Vessel of Individuality " as a child learns to walk (upright spine = Du) from a crawling position (Ren mai touching the earth) (taped talks) " According to the Su wen, the Du meets with the KD organ and the brain, but no mention of the HT organ connection... there is a connection to all of the organs indirectly, because of spinal innervation: Du 1-Du 4 = intestinal, lower jiao, urogenital Du 5-Du 9 = digestive Du 10-Du 16=respiratory, circulatory Du 17-Du 21=neurological " (Jeffery Jacob.. the Acupuncturist's Clinical Handbook) and the brain (sea of marrow) K On Mon, Jun 1, 2009 at 12:43 AM, Stefano Marcelli < stefanomarcelli wrote: > > > Dear Michael, thank you. > > Yes we could consider that the channels are indeed vessels, keeping in > consideration that for the old Chinese " mai " is a channel that transport > either qi and blood in different proportion, depending from the organ that > generates it. > If the dumai channel has a specific organ to which is related must be only > an organ that " governs " . As has just reminded, Dumai enter the > kidney, the brain, the heart. In your opinion what of these entered entities > does " govern " the body much? > The second, maybe the first name of Dumai is " Governor Vessel " . > For the verb " du " ww.nciku.com gives only the meaning " supervise " , my old > David Crook dictionary gives " superintend and direct " . If the back-shu > points are " the points in the back where qi of the respective zangfu organ > is infused " and " in close proximity to their respective zangfu organ " (Prof. > Di Ling) the dushu respective organ is neither the brain, nor the kidney, > nor the heart, but the only organ of the body that " governs " , anatomically > speaking the most internal one, at least in the thorax. > What are thinking about the other professionals, the most skilled voices in > the group? The riddle goes on... > Ciao, > Stefano > > PS: > From thefreedictionary.com > " supervise " > 1. to direct the performance or operation of (an activity or a process) > 2. to watch over (people) so as to ensure appropriate behaviour [Latin > super- over + videre to see] > " govern " > 1. to direct the performance or operation of (an activity or a process) > 2. to watch over (people) so as to ensure appropriate behaviour [Latin > super- over + videre to see] > > Stefano > > > Or we could consider that the channels are indeed vessels, no? > > > > Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc > > > > To: Chinese Medicine <Chinese Medicine%40yaho\ ogroups.com> > > johnkokko > > Sun, 31 May 2009 15:06:52 -0700 > > Re: Two criteria for back-shu points > > > -- Turtle Island Integrative Health TCM Review director CA State Board Prep Courses www.tcmreview.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 1, 2009 Report Share Posted June 1, 2009 From what you are suggesting then I could conclude that you might be thinking of the CSF and/or nervous system. Before you go there, I might suggest we remember that some Korean research has found that the developing embryo has many things happen prior to the nervous system. I seldom hear much about the works of Bonghan or Soh when people start creating ideas of anatomy of the channels. Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc Chinese Medicine johnkokko Mon, 1 Jun 2009 07:44:29 -0700 Re: Two criteria for back-shu points Jeffrey Yuen also talks about the Du mai as the " Vessel of Individuality " as a child learns to walk (upright spine = Du) from a crawling position (Ren mai touching the earth) (taped talks) " According to the Su wen, the Du meets with the KD organ and the brain, but no mention of the HT organ connection... there is a connection to all of the organs indirectly, because of spinal innervation: Du 1-Du 4 = intestinal, lower jiao, urogenital Du 5-Du 9 = digestive Du 10-Du 16=respiratory, circulatory Du 17-Du 21=neurological " (Jeffery Jacob.. the Acupuncturist's Clinical Handbook) and the brain (sea of marrow) K On Mon, Jun 1, 2009 at 12:43 AM, Stefano Marcelli < stefanomarcelli wrote: > > > Dear Michael, thank you. > > Yes we could consider that the channels are indeed vessels, keeping in > consideration that for the old Chinese " mai " is a channel that transport > either qi and blood in different proportion, depending from the organ that > generates it. > If the dumai channel has a specific organ to which is related must be only > an organ that " governs " . As has just reminded, Dumai enter the > kidney, the brain, the heart. In your opinion what of these entered entities > does " govern " the body much? > The second, maybe the first name of Dumai is " Governor Vessel " . > For the verb " du " ww.nciku.com gives only the meaning " supervise " , my old > David Crook dictionary gives " superintend and direct " . If the back-shu > points are " the points in the back where qi of the respective zangfu organ > is infused " and " in close proximity to their respective zangfu organ " (Prof. > Di Ling) the dushu respective organ is neither the brain, nor the kidney, > nor the heart, but the only organ of the body that " governs " , anatomically > speaking the most internal one, at least in the thorax. > What are thinking about the other professionals, the most skilled voices in > the group? The riddle goes on... > Ciao, > Stefano > > PS: > From thefreedictionary.com > " supervise " > 1. to direct the performance or operation of (an activity or a process) > 2. to watch over (people) so as to ensure appropriate behaviour [Latin > super- over + videre to see] > " govern " > 1. to direct the performance or operation of (an activity or a process) > 2. to watch over (people) so as to ensure appropriate behaviour [Latin > super- over + videre to see] > > Stefano > >> Or we could consider that the channels are indeed vessels, no? >> >> Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc >> >> To: Chinese Medicine <Chinese Medicine%40yaho\ ogroups.com> >> johnkokko >> Sun, 31 May 2009 15:06:52 -0700 >> Re: Two criteria for back-shu points > > > -- Turtle Island Integrative Health TCM Review director CA State Board Prep Courses www.tcmreview.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 1, 2009 Report Share Posted June 1, 2009 Mike, If you want a sophisticated model of the channels, read Wang Ju- yi's work in " Applied Channel Theory in " . In his work, the channels are not associated with specific structures, but with informational systems and interstitial fluid circulation. On Jun 1, 2009, at 11:05 AM, mike Bowser wrote: > > > > From what you are suggesting then I could conclude that you might be > thinking of the CSF and/or nervous system. Before you go there, I > might suggest we remember that some Korean research has found that > the developing embryo has many things happen prior to the nervous > system. I seldom hear much about the works of Bonghan or Soh when > people start creating ideas of anatomy of the channels. > > Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc > > Chinese Medicine > > Chair, Department of Herbal Medicine Pacific College of Oriental Medicine San Diego, Ca. 92122 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 2, 2009 Report Share Posted June 2, 2009 I will have to get that text. Thanks Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc Chinese Medicine zrosenbe Mon, 1 Jun 2009 11:37:44 -0700 Re: Two criteria for back-shu points Mike, If you want a sophisticated model of the channels, read Wang Ju- yi's work in " Applied Channel Theory in " . In his work, the channels are not associated with specific structures, but with informational systems and interstitial fluid circulation. On Jun 1, 2009, at 11:05 AM, mike Bowser wrote: > > > > From what you are suggesting then I could conclude that you might be > thinking of the CSF and/or nervous system. Before you go there, I > might suggest we remember that some Korean research has found that > the developing embryo has many things happen prior to the nervous > system. I seldom hear much about the works of Bonghan or Soh when > people start creating ideas of anatomy of the channels. > > Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc > > Chinese Medicine > > Chair, Department of Herbal Medicine Pacific College of Oriental Medicine San Diego, Ca. 92122 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 2, 2009 Report Share Posted June 2, 2009 Hi Stefano Nice illustration! not sure I agree with all of it... I am always uncomfortable when people put tissues into CM that aren't specifically mentioned classically...but it's just my opinion anyway Du mai - governing vessel governs the yang of the body classically this would represent Fire so, one might argue that it is, in fact the heart...the source of all fire and the Emperor which governs all we might consider the heart as the Imperial Fire - the emperor rules but does not move... So, next we might look at the Ministerial Fire - traveling fire commonly this is the Xin Bao/Xin Zhu Heart wrapper or Heart Governor (ruling in the name of the emperor) many argue that this also has no form as the character doesn't have the flesh radical in it (like it's biao-li paired San Jiao) though this doesn't seem to resonate with your emphasis of Du Shu are you implying with your illustration that something is greater than the Heart?!? it looks that way....but, everything, everything is subordinate to the Heart....so it will be interesting to learn your take on this to me, I like your expanding rings of Heart, Heart governor, Lungs.... I just think that Du Shu should not be at the center, but below the Heart random musings Stephen Woodley LAc -- http://www.fastmail.fm - One of many happy users: http://www.fastmail.fm/docs/quotes.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 2, 2009 Report Share Posted June 2, 2009 Stefano, You must know that the extraordinary vessels are a different set of vessels than the 12 regular channels. My understanding is the extraordinary vessels provide the template for embryonic development and relate much more to the space and time of the body than to specific organs and tissues. It seems beside the point to try to fashion some kind of argument that the Du relates to this organ or that organ, although of course, evidence of relationships can always be found between just about anything in the body that you want to relate to something else in the body. But if one studies early embryonic development and the embryonic origins of tissue, the glimpse that is revealed is not a mechanistic one, on the order of " this is next to that or this structure is behind that structure. " Sorry, but I think your " discovery " misses the point. RoseAnne On Jun 1, 2009, at 10:27 PM, stephen woodley wrote: > Hi Stefano > Nice illustration! > not sure I agree with all of it... > I am always uncomfortable when people put tissues into CM that > aren't specifically mentioned classically...but it's just my > opinion > > anyway > Du mai - governing vessel governs the yang of the body > classically this would represent Fire > so, one might argue that it is, in fact the heart...the source of > all fire and the Emperor which governs all > > we might consider the heart as the Imperial Fire - the emperor > rules but does not move... > So, next we might look at the Ministerial Fire - traveling fire > commonly this is the Xin Bao/Xin Zhu > Heart wrapper or Heart Governor (ruling in the name of the > emperor) > many argue that this also has no form as the character doesn't > have the flesh radical in it (like it's biao-li paired San Jiao) > > though this doesn't seem to resonate with your emphasis of Du Shu > are you implying with your illustration that something is greater > than the Heart?!? it looks that way....but, everything, > everything is subordinate to the Heart....so it will be > interesting to learn your take on this > to me, I like your expanding rings of Heart, Heart governor, > Lungs.... I just think that Du Shu should not be at the center, > but below the Heart > > random musings > Stephen Woodley LAc > > -- > http://www.fastmail.fm - One of many happy users: > http://www.fastmail.fm/docs/quotes.html > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 2, 2009 Report Share Posted June 2, 2009 Hi Stephen. > not sure I agree with all of it... This is very important, I'm not founding the Heart's Electrical System Church ;-). > I am always uncomfortable when people put tissues into CM that > aren't specifically mentioned classically...but it's just my > opinion Please, if you have not already did it, read my first hypothesis on Qi at http://www.meso.it/circleonkidneychannel.en.htm. Before the writing, and so before the Classics, men could see the Acupuncture Channels. > this doesn't seem to resonate with your emphasis of Du Shu > are you implying with your illustration that something is greater > than the Heart?!? If you have had a miocardial infarctus you can survive, but if you have had a cardiac arrest, you must have close to you an Angel called " Defibrillator " , but only in case your cardiac arrest is shockable. If unluckely it depends from asystolia (no beat)... you are now in Godland. I just think that Du Shu should not be at the center, > but below the Heart If the Dumai organ is (also) the " Heart's Electrical System " it is anywhere within the cardiac muscle, but the sinoatrial node that starts and " beats " the hearth rhythm is on the heart top. For a very good animation and explanation visit this page: http://www.nhlbi.nih.gov/health/dci/Diseases/hhw/hhw_electrical.html > random musings > Stephen Woodley LAc Thank you, Stefano Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 3, 2009 Report Share Posted June 3, 2009 Infact, they only change a letter for making me furious. Right consideration. Thanks. Stefano Curious Organs. david Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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