Guest guest Posted May 29, 2009 Report Share Posted May 29, 2009 Hi Everyone, I ran into a friend tonight who works at the local hospital. She told me she was recently diagnosed with whooping cough, and there have been a number of cases of it appearing in adults age 45 and older, across the country. The best theory on it, according to her, is that the vaccine that was given to most of us as children as a preventive, is wearing off. According to her, " no one knew how long the vaccine was supposed to offer protection, and we are now seeing cases in middle-aged people who had been vaccinated as children, and in children who have not been vaccinated for it. " This is the first I've heard of this, so I thought it might be news to you too. Anyone have any thoughts on how we can prepare ourselves and our patients? One question that comes to mind is whether the vaccine is really wearing off, or if the vaccine is acting as a sort of latent pathogen, coming back to haunt us 50 years later... Thoughts, anyone? Andrea Beth Traditional Oriental Medicine Happy Hours in the CALM Center 635 S. 10th St. Cottonwood, AZ 86326 (928) 274-1373 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 29, 2009 Report Share Posted May 29, 2009 Hi Andrea Beth. I recommend studying Wen Bing theory thoroughly. Study the stages of cough and their treatments, and I think you will be surprised by the results. It is also possible, as you say, that this is the effect of a latent / dormant infectious agent, but I find myself doubting that research to this effect will be carried out (honestly). ...I am not clear why a vaccine would " wear out " , and why it would take 40 to 50 years to " wear out " . Should it go to the garage and get oiled more often? Sorry, it's late. Andrea Beth, if you do searches for Jake Fratkin and cough, you will find some really good summaries of his regarding coughs. He also includes recommended products and companies. Good luck! Hugo ________________________________ Hugo Ramiro http://middlemedicine.wordpress.com http://www.chinesemedicaltherapies.org ________________________________ < Chinese Herbal Medicine ; TCM List <Chinese Traditional Medicine >; alumni PCOM <alumni Friday, 29 May, 2009 0:01:59 whooping cough resurgence Hi Everyone, I ran into a friend tonight who works at the local hospital. She told me she was recently diagnosed with whooping cough, and there have been a number of cases of it appearing in adults age 45 and older, across the country. The best theory on it, according to her, is that the vaccine that was given to most of us as children as a preventive, is wearing off. According to her, " no one knew how long the vaccine was supposed to offer protection, and we are now seeing cases in middle-aged people who had been vaccinated as children, and in children who have not been vaccinated for it. " This is the first I've heard of this, so I thought it might be news to you too. Anyone have any thoughts on how we can prepare ourselves and our patients? One question that comes to mind is whether the vaccine is really wearing off, or if the vaccine is acting as a sort of latent pathogen, coming back to haunt us 50 years later... Thoughts, anyone? Andrea Beth Traditional Oriental Medicine Happy Hours in the CALM Center 635 S. 10th St. Cottonwood, AZ 86326 (928) 274-1373 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 29, 2009 Report Share Posted May 29, 2009 Thanks, Hugo! Andrea Beth Traditional Oriental Medicine Happy Hours in the CALM Center 635 S. 10th St. Cottonwood, AZ 86326 (928) 274-1373 --- On Thu, 5/28/09, Hugo Ramiro <subincor wrote: Hugo Ramiro <subincor Re: whooping cough resurgence Chinese Medicine Thursday, May 28, 2009, 11:03 PM Hi Andrea Beth. I recommend studying Wen Bing theory thoroughly. Study the stages of cough and their treatments, and I think you will be surprised by the results. It is also possible, as you say, that this is the effect of a latent / dormant infectious agent, but I find myself doubting that research to this effect will be carried out (honestly). ...I am not clear why a vaccine would " wear out " , and why it would take 40 to 50 years to " wear out " . Should it go to the garage and get oiled more often? Sorry, it's late. Andrea Beth, if you do searches for Jake Fratkin and cough, you will find some really good summaries of his regarding coughs. He also includes recommended products and companies. Good luck! Hugo ________________________________ Hugo Ramiro http://middlemedicine.wordpress.com http://www.chinesemedicaltherapies.org ________________________________ < Chinese Herbal Medicine ; TCM List <Chinese Traditional Medicine >; alumni PCOM <alumni Friday, 29 May, 2009 0:01:59 TCM - whooping cough resurgence Hi Everyone, I ran into a friend tonight who works at the local hospital. She told me she was recently diagnosed with whooping cough, and there have been a number of cases of it appearing in adults age 45 and older, across the country. The best theory on it, according to her, is that the vaccine that was given to most of us as children as a preventive, is wearing off. According to her, " no one knew how long the vaccine was supposed to offer protection, and we are now seeing cases in middle-aged people who had been vaccinated as children, and in children who have not been vaccinated for it. " This is the first I've heard of this, so I thought it might be news to you too. Anyone have any thoughts on how we can prepare ourselves and our patients? One question that comes to mind is whether the vaccine is really wearing off, or if the vaccine is acting as a sort of latent pathogen, coming back to haunt us 50 years later... Thoughts, anyone? Andrea Beth Traditional Oriental Medicine Happy Hours in the CALM Center 635 S. 10th St. Cottonwood, AZ 86326 (928) 274-1373 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 29, 2009 Report Share Posted May 29, 2009 I came down with whooping cough on April 1 of this year. This week was the first time I didn't wake up at night whooping. I was immunized as a child. Though I can't say this with any authority other than my own sense, I did feel that something was latent in me for a long time that finally came to a head AS whooping cough. It just felt that way in a way that is hard to describe and definitely impossible to prove. It's an amazing dragon of an illness to be sure. It is so interesting to have something like this and observe it's nature and changes in one's own body. I learned a lot - at least about my own manifestation of it. I am not sure how much what I experienced and found effective can be translated to the way others may manifest it. I agree with Hugo that a deep understanding of the diagnosis and treatment of cough, the 6 levels and Wen bing is crucial as there is not one treatment for whooping cough. There are different stages and of course different constitutions. At it's height, my cough was VERY dry and yet, at night, after I began to cough, though I had no mucous in my lungs ever, mucous began to be produced in GREAT quantities from somewhere that was not my lungs. The dryness and wind would make my throat close (and so the whooping sound). Then I would choke on watery phlegm. At the start I was diagnosed with a dry cough by an experienced herbalist based on the sound of the cough. This made the mucous much worse. Parching phelgm or warming to transform phlegm rheum made the dryness worse. I think perhaps this is the difficult conundrum of this illness that makes it knotty. Contradictory symptoms. What was finally diagnosed that made a big difference in my recovery was Yang Ming dryness with Tai Yin dampness. This was based somewhat on the teaching of Arnaud Versluys on the nature of Yang Ming being dryness. The treatment was Ma Xing Gan Shi Tang. In between I took low doses of Ling Gui Zhu Gan Tang for the Tai Yin damp. I've come to understand and appreciate Ma Xing Gan Shi Tang much more since being ill. I see it now as a formula that gently opens and moistens the Lungs and Yang Ming. I didn't have any heat signs and did have an aversion to cold. It felt good and was the formula that created the transition to getting well. I also came to appreciate how perhaps these illnesses and flues have a course that they will follow to the natural end and that we cannot change the fact of this with our herbs. It may be that as practitioners, rather than trying to cure them, it is better to think about managing them so that they are less scary, less intense and so that their course moves through more quickly and effectively without stalling. Maybe I'm wrong about this thought. I'd love to hear what others think. I do know several people in my age group, 45-55, who have gotten this recently. I also have not seen it occur in any of the many non- immunized young people around here. Could it be, as Hugo suggests, that it is the result of the immunization we received years ago? Sharon Sharon Weizenbaum 86 Henry Street Amherst, MA 01002 www.whitepinehealingarts.com sweiz Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 29, 2009 Report Share Posted May 29, 2009 Thank you for sharing your experience, Sharon. Since I first started studying Chinese medicine in 1997, I have had 4 very severe episodes of respiratory illness. Each became deeply entrenched, each lasted for a month or more in its most severe manifestation, and each left me profoundly weakened for a couple of months afterward. I came to the same conclusion that you did, about these diseases having a natural course and their own timeframe for resolution. They have taught me to appreciate the value of good supportive care through a period of illness - the basics of good simple food, rest, and lots of sleep. Herbs, acupuncture, steam therapy, all helped facilitate my recovery and my transition towards wellness once the illness resolved, but they were unable to change the course of the illness. With the most recent one this January, I realized the best path was the past of no resistance - surrender to being sick and getting well, for as long as it takes. This mindset enabled me to get the rest I needed. I have come to extend this understanding to illness as a whole, and also to the fact that our bodies and health are always changing; we are always aging, and moving closer to our end. We can influence what that process will look like, and perhaps prolong it, but we cannot stop it. I think this is a profound understanding, and it changes my thinking about what it means to offer health care to the public. In fact, I have been sorting this out in my head for much of the last year, and am still waiting for conclusions... :-) Traditional Oriental Medicine Happy Hours in the CALM Center 635 S. 10th St. Cottonwood, AZ 86326 (928) 274-1373 --- On Fri, 5/29/09, sharon weizenbaum <sweiz wrote: sharon weizenbaum <sweiz Re:whooping cough resurgence Chinese Medicine Friday, May 29, 2009, 1:23 PM I came down with whooping cough on April 1 of this year. This week was the first time I didn't wake up at night whooping. I was immunized as a child. Though I can't say this with any authority other than my own sense, I did feel that something was latent in me for a long time that finally came to a head AS whooping cough. It just felt that way in a way that is hard to describe and definitely impossible to prove. It's an amazing dragon of an illness to be sure. It is so interesting to have something like this and observe it's nature and changes in one's own body. I learned a lot - at least about my own manifestation of it. I am not sure how much what I experienced and found effective can be translated to the way others may manifest it. I agree with Hugo that a deep understanding of the diagnosis and treatment of cough, the 6 levels and Wen bing is crucial as there is not one treatment for whooping cough. There are different stages and of course different constitutions. At it's height, my cough was VERY dry and yet, at night, after I began to cough, though I had no mucous in my lungs ever, mucous began to be produced in GREAT quantities from somewhere that was not my lungs. The dryness and wind would make my throat close (and so the whooping sound). Then I would choke on watery phlegm. At the start I was diagnosed with a dry cough by an experienced herbalist based on the sound of the cough. This made the mucous much worse. Parching phelgm or warming to transform phlegm rheum made the dryness worse. I think perhaps this is the difficult conundrum of this illness that makes it knotty. Contradictory symptoms. What was finally diagnosed that made a big difference in my recovery was Yang Ming dryness with Tai Yin dampness. This was based somewhat on the teaching of Arnaud Versluys on the nature of Yang Ming being dryness. The treatment was Ma Xing Gan Shi Tang. In between I took low doses of Ling Gui Zhu Gan Tang for the Tai Yin damp. I've come to understand and appreciate Ma Xing Gan Shi Tang much more since being ill. I see it now as a formula that gently opens and moistens the Lungs and Yang Ming. I didn't have any heat signs and did have an aversion to cold. It felt good and was the formula that created the transition to getting well. I also came to appreciate how perhaps these illnesses and flues have a course that they will follow to the natural end and that we cannot change the fact of this with our herbs. It may be that as practitioners, rather than trying to cure them, it is better to think about managing them so that they are less scary, less intense and so that their course moves through more quickly and effectively without stalling. Maybe I'm wrong about this thought. I'd love to hear what others think. I do know several people in my age group, 45-55, who have gotten this recently. I also have not seen it occur in any of the many non- immunized young people around here. Could it be, as Hugo suggests, that it is the result of the immunization we received years ago? Sharon Sharon Weizenbaum 86 Henry Street Amherst, MA 01002 www.whitepinehealingarts.com sweiz Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 30, 2009 Report Share Posted May 30, 2009 What the mathematical models show is that the vaccines actually cause a weakening of the vaccinate......weakened antibodies. Now, who on this list stated that their unvaccinated child who developed whooping cough had it treated in one day with alternative medicine? That is fabulous, what was used, also I am sure a homeopathic could be figured out, I will contact the NCH for this. Sincerely, Patricia Jordan DVM,CVA,CTCVM & Herbology ; Chinese Traditional Medicine ; alumni Thu, 28 May 2009 21:01:59 -0700 whooping cough resurgence Hi Everyone, I ran into a friend tonight who works at the local hospital. She told me she was recently diagnosed with whooping cough, and there have been a number of cases of it appearing in adults age 45 and older, across the country. The best theory on it, according to her, is that the vaccine that was given to most of us as children as a preventive, is wearing off. According to her, " no one knew how long the vaccine was supposed to offer protection, and we are now seeing cases in middle-aged people who had been vaccinated as children, and in children who have not been vaccinated for it. " This is the first I've heard of this, so I thought it might be news to you too. Anyone have any thoughts on how we can prepare ourselves and our patients? One question that comes to mind is whether the vaccine is really wearing off, or if the vaccine is acting as a sort of latent pathogen, coming back to haunt us 50 years later... Thoughts, anyone? Andrea Beth Traditional Oriental Medicine Happy Hours in the CALM Center 635 S. 10th St. Cottonwood, AZ 86326 (928) 274-1373 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 30, 2009 Report Share Posted May 30, 2009 What do you all think about the recent study (may 26) from Kaiser Permanente Colorado's Institute for Health Research in Denver and what it may infer about the protective aspects of vaccines? Whether it is necessary to vaccinate against whooping cough aside, wouldnt this study suggest that some vaccines actually do provide protection against certain illnesses? I ask this because there seem to be a lot of people involved in the vaccine discussion who insist that vaccines do not work at all.: The study looked at 751 children enrolled in a health plan in Colorado between 1996 and 2007, including 156 who got whopping cough, according to their medical records. Among children with whooping cough, 18, or 12 per cent, had parents who refused the vaccine, compared with three or 0.5 per cent in a comparison group of 595 children who didn't get sick and included children who had at least some of the recommended series of five doses. " The study was published online in Pediatrics on 26 May. -Rebekah ------------ Rebekah Sitty, MS, L.Ac. San Francisco Community Acupuncture 220 Valencia St. San Francisco, CA 94103 415.675.8973 rsitty ------------- The information contained in this electronic message may contain protected health information confidential under applicable law, and is intended only for the use of the individual or entity named above. If the recipient of this copy is not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, copy or disclosure of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please notify the sender and purge the communication immediately without making any copy or distribution. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 30, 2009 Report Share Posted May 30, 2009 It was my son at the ripe old age of four. It manifested as phlegm heat and was treated with a modified qing qi hua tang wan with high doses of shi gao, jin yi hua, and lian qiao, as a decoction. Douglas ________________________________ Patricia Jordan <coastalcatclinic traditional chinese med <Chinese Traditional Medicine > Friday, May 29, 2009 10:23:59 PM RE: whooping cough resurgence What the mathematical models show is that the vaccines actually cause a weakening of the vaccinate......weakened antibodies. Now, who on this list stated that their unvaccinated child who developed whooping cough had it treated in one day with alternative medicine? That is fabulous, what was used, also I am sure a homeopathic could be figured out, I will contact the NCH for this. Sincerely, Patricia Jordan DVM,CVA,CTCVM & Herbology ; Chinese Traditional Medicine ; alumni Thu, 28 May 2009 21:01:59 -0700 whooping cough resurgence Hi Everyone, I ran into a friend tonight who works at the local hospital. She told me she was recently diagnosed with whooping cough, and there have been a number of cases of it appearing in adults age 45 and older, across the country. The best theory on it, according to her, is that the vaccine that was given to most of us as children as a preventive, is wearing off. According to her, " no one knew how long the vaccine was supposed to offer protection, and we are now seeing cases in middle-aged people who had been vaccinated as children, and in children who have not been vaccinated for it. " This is the first I've heard of this, so I thought it might be news to you too. Anyone have any thoughts on how we can prepare ourselves and our patients? One question that comes to mind is whether the vaccine is really wearing off, or if the vaccine is acting as a sort of latent pathogen, coming back to haunt us 50 years later... Thoughts, anyone? Andrea Beth Traditional Oriental Medicine Happy Hours in the CALM Center 635 S. 10th St. Cottonwood, AZ 86326 (928) 274-1373 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 31, 2009 Report Share Posted May 31, 2009 there is a pertussis nosode, it may be perscription only these days. D.T --- On Sat, 5/30/09, Douglas Knapp <knappneedleman wrote: Douglas Knapp <knappneedleman Re: whooping cough resurgence Chinese Medicine Saturday, May 30, 2009, 12:08 PM It was my son at the ripe old age of four. It manifested as phlegm heat and was treated with a modified qing qi hua tang wan with high doses of shi gao, jin yi hua, and lian qiao, as a decoction. Douglas ____________ _________ _________ __ Patricia Jordan <coastalcatclinic@ hotmail.com> traditional chinese med <traditional_ chinese_medicine > Friday, May 29, 2009 10:23:59 PM RE: whooping cough resurgence What the mathematical models show is that the vaccines actually cause a weakening of the vaccinate... ...weakened antibodies. Now, who on this list stated that their unvaccinated child who developed whooping cough had it treated in one day with alternative medicine? That is fabulous, what was used, also I am sure a homeopathic could be figured out, I will contact the NCH for this. Sincerely, Patricia Jordan DVM,CVA,CTCVM & Herbology ; traditional_ chinese_medicine ; alumni@pacificcolle ge.edu Thu, 28 May 2009 21:01:59 -0700 whooping cough resurgence Hi Everyone, I ran into a friend tonight who works at the local hospital. She told me she was recently diagnosed with whooping cough, and there have been a number of cases of it appearing in adults age 45 and older, across the country. The best theory on it, according to her, is that the vaccine that was given to most of us as children as a preventive, is wearing off. According to her, " no one knew how long the vaccine was supposed to offer protection, and we are now seeing cases in middle-aged people who had been vaccinated as children, and in children who have not been vaccinated for it. " This is the first I've heard of this, so I thought it might be news to you too. Anyone have any thoughts on how we can prepare ourselves and our patients? One question that comes to mind is whether the vaccine is really wearing off, or if the vaccine is acting as a sort of latent pathogen, coming back to haunt us 50 years later... Thoughts, anyone? Andrea Beth Traditional Oriental Medicine Happy Hours in the CALM Center 635 S. 10th St. Cottonwood, AZ 86326 (928) 274-1373 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 31, 2009 Report Share Posted May 31, 2009 I also came to appreciate how perhaps these illnesses and flues have a course that they will follow to the natural end and that we cannot change the fact of this with our herbs.>>>>>>>> i have been asking this question for a long time now. It has been by experience that we dont change the course of viral illnesses and can only treat it symptomatically. Sharon, did you take antibiotics? Did you have a culture done? Here in the west we had a lot of chronic coughs this year and i have seen many patients treated by myself as well as other that did not seem to alter course. Some were severe and often dry coughs, but i have not seen any that were confirmed to be pertussis. 400 29th St. Suite 419 Oakland Ca 94609 alonmarcus Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 31, 2009 Report Share Posted May 31, 2009 Sharon, Several points (since doesn't support paragraph by paragraph formatting, I'll take each of your points with a numeral): 1) We need to question the entire idea of acquired immunity and vaccines, and how it effects the body over the long term. In my thinking, a latent evil may well be a factor here, although I'd look at shi qi/seasonal qi (change of season, unusual warm or cold spells) and your own correct qi (were you tired out, was there emotional strain, aging factors) as co-factors as well. 2) I also learned a lot about the process of seasonal diseases when I contracted a terrible flu nine years ago for six weeks in April. I assumed it was a latent cold evil contracted when I went out into a cold foggy evening after midnight drenched in sweat from playing loud rock music, combined with teaching three night classes that semester. It fit the classic chun wen/spring warmth pattern of warm disease theory. I agree that these diseases have a natural course, and many clauses in the Shang Han Lun and Wen Bing texts seem to support this conclusion, that once such a disease takes hold, we need to guide it out through the yang channels and avoid damage to our yin viscera. 3) I think your diagnosis, based on Shang Han Lun of a combination yang ming/tai yin disease is not only correct, but brilliant, as was your treatment approach. 4) I'd be interested in more details on people you know in the 45-55 age group who contracted this 'whooping cough' in the spring, in order to try to deduce a pattern. I'd be interested in a) climate and seasonal factors b) symptomology c) progession of disease by stage and d) Chinese medical treatment (if any). Hope you are all better, On May 29, 2009, at 1:23 PM, sharon weizenbaum wrote: > > > I came down with whooping cough on April 1 of this year. This week > was the first time I didn't wake up at night whooping. I was > immunized as a child. Though I can't say this with any authority > other than my own sense, I did feel that something was latent in me > for a long time that finally came to a head AS whooping cough. It > just felt that way in a way that is hard to describe and definitely > impossible to prove. It's an amazing dragon of an illness to be sure. > > > It is so interesting to have something like this and observe it's > nature and changes in one's own body. I learned a lot - at least > about my own manifestation of it. I am not sure how much what I > experienced and found effective can be translated to the way others > may manifest it. I agree with Hugo that a deep understanding of the > diagnosis and treatment of cough, the 6 levels and Wen bing is crucial > as there is not one treatment for whooping cough. There are different > stages and of course different constitutions. > > At it's height, my cough was VERY dry and yet, at night, after I began > to cough, though I had no mucous in my lungs ever, mucous began to be > produced in GREAT quantities from somewhere that was not my lungs. > The dryness and wind would make my throat close (and so the whooping > sound). Then I would choke on watery phlegm. At the start I was > diagnosed with a dry cough by an experienced herbalist based on the > sound of the cough. This made the mucous much worse. Parching phelgm > or warming to transform phlegm rheum made the dryness worse. I think > perhaps this is the difficult conundrum of this illness that makes it > knotty. Contradictory symptoms. > > What was finally diagnosed that made a big difference in my recovery > was Yang Ming dryness with Tai Yin dampness. This was based somewhat > on the teaching of Arnaud Versluys on the nature of Yang Ming being > dryness. The treatment was Ma Xing Gan Shi Tang. In between I took > low doses of Ling Gui Zhu Gan Tang for the Tai Yin damp. I've come to > understand and appreciate Ma Xing Gan Shi Tang much more since being > ill. I see it now as a formula that gently opens and moistens the > Lungs and Yang Ming. I didn't have any heat signs and did have an > aversion to cold. It felt good and was the formula that created the > transition to getting well. > > I also came to appreciate how perhaps these illnesses and flues have a > course that they will follow to the natural end and that we cannot > change the fact of this with our herbs. It may be that as > practitioners, rather than trying to cure them, it is better to think > about managing them so that they are less scary, less intense and so > that their course moves through more quickly and effectively without > stalling. Maybe I'm wrong about this thought. I'd love to hear what > others think. > > I do know several people in my age group, 45-55, who have gotten this > recently. I also have not seen it occur in any of the many non- > immunized young people around here. Could it be, as Hugo suggests, > that it is the result of the immunization we received years ago? > > Sharon > > Sharon Weizenbaum > 86 Henry Street > Amherst, MA 01002 > www.whitepinehealingarts.com > sweiz > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 3, 2009 Report Share Posted June 3, 2009 Rebekah, I think a big part of this discussion revolves around the need to know more about the other ingredients and their impacts on a child's immune system. There are many things that should not be included and are there as a matter of cost-containment (profits). As science is into testing one-to-one in its studies, it has not really looked into what happens when all of these substances are injected deeply into the body, which is not the normal route of infection barring some punctures. We also fail to realize what is a healthy immune system and what does it need to replenish itself? The Japanese routinely wait till 2 years of age before vaccination. This kind of points out a flaw in our thinking that newborns need it now, no? Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc Chinese Medicine rsitty Sat, 30 May 2009 08:29:49 -0700 Re: whooping cough resurgence What do you all think about the recent study (may 26) from Kaiser Permanente Colorado's Institute for Health Research in Denver and what it may infer about the protective aspects of vaccines? Whether it is necessary to vaccinate against whooping cough aside, wouldnt this study suggest that some vaccines actually do provide protection against certain illnesses? I ask this because there seem to be a lot of people involved in the vaccine discussion who insist that vaccines do not work at all.: The study looked at 751 children enrolled in a health plan in Colorado between 1996 and 2007, including 156 who got whopping cough, according to their medical records. Among children with whooping cough, 18, or 12 per cent, had parents who refused the vaccine, compared with three or 0.5 per cent in a comparison group of 595 children who didn't get sick and included children who had at least some of the recommended series of five doses. " The study was published online in Pediatrics on 26 May. -Rebekah ------------ Rebekah Sitty, MS, L.Ac. San Francisco Community Acupuncture 220 Valencia St. San Francisco, CA 94103 415.675.8973 rsitty ------------- The information contained in this electronic message may contain protected health information confidential under applicable law, and is intended only for the use of the individual or entity named above. If the recipient of this copy is not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, copy or disclosure of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please notify the sender and purge the communication immediately without making any copy or distribution. _______________ Lauren found her dream laptop. Find the PC that’s right for you. http://www.microsoft.com/windows/choosepc/?ocid=ftp_val_wl_290 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 3, 2009 Report Share Posted June 3, 2009 Exactly, look at the link of www.iansvoice.org and see the horrific the newborn suffered as his right of passage being vaccinated with the Hep B vaccine that Bush is responsible for ......HORRIFIC and if that is not blood poisoning the serum sickness that occurs with injections, I don't know what else is. the vaccine administration is NON EVIDENCE BASED and NON SCIENTIFIC and lines the pockets of many and causes deaths and immune dysregulation or annilation to others. Why do we think that all of the sudden follooiwng the huge increase in the nuber of mandated vaccines (mandated only for the dollars i might add) do you think we now have commercials on TV of CHildhood Immunodefeciency????? and who has enough money to put a Olympic gold Star Women ice Skater to put her face in front of the camera at prime time......in costs for advertising the Presidential candidates would not have the funds for.....to peddle flu vaccines FOR ASMATHICS! Step back take a deep breath and realize this is all to pander their wares, deadly wares. The WHO is actually a military organization and what purpose do you really think they push injectable poisons for?Read Dr. Marc Girard's paper on calling for bringing Crimina Charges against the WHO for the fact that the vaccine risks DO NOT MAKE VACCINATION WORTH THE BENEFIT, esp in Hep B and Gardasil and he goes on to show us all how they are manipulating the deconstruction of health and will do so also with any Bird or Swine Flu vaccine.Dr. Girard should know, he used to be a vaccine company consultant, however now he is helping France sue GlaxoSmithKline for what they have done to the people of france with the Hep B vaccine. Sincerely, Patricia Jordan DVM,CVA,CTCVM & Herbology > Chinese Traditional Medicine > naturaldoc1 > Wed, 3 Jun 2009 00:22:25 +0000 > RE: Re: whooping cough resurgence > > > Rebekah, > I think a big part of this discussion revolves around the need to know more about the other ingredients and their impacts on a child's immune system. There are many things that should not be included and are there as a matter of cost-containment (profits). As science is into testing one-to-one in its studies, it has not really looked into what happens when all of these substances are injected deeply into the body, which is not the normal route of infection barring some punctures. > We also fail to realize what is a healthy immune system and what does it need to replenish itself? > The Japanese routinely wait till 2 years of age before vaccination. This kind of points out a flaw in our thinking that newborns need it now, no? > > Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc > > Chinese Medicine > rsitty > Sat, 30 May 2009 08:29:49 -0700 > Re: whooping cough resurgence > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > What do you all think about the recent study (may 26) from Kaiser > > Permanente Colorado's Institute for Health Research in Denver and what > > it may infer about the protective aspects of vaccines? Whether it is > > necessary to vaccinate against whooping cough aside, wouldnt this > > study suggest that some vaccines actually do provide protection > > against certain illnesses? I ask this because there seem to be a lot > > of people involved in the vaccine discussion who insist that vaccines > > do not work at all.: > > > > The study looked at 751 children enrolled in a health plan in > > Colorado between 1996 and 2007, including 156 who got whopping cough, > > according to their medical records. > > > > Among children with whooping cough, 18, or 12 per cent, had parents > > who refused the vaccine, compared with three or 0.5 per cent in a > > comparison group of 595 children who didn't get sick and included > > children who had at least some of the recommended series of five doses. " > > > > The study was published online in Pediatrics on 26 May. > > > > -Rebekah > > ------------ > > Rebekah Sitty, MS, L.Ac. > > San Francisco Community Acupuncture > > 220 Valencia St. > > San Francisco, CA 94103 > > 415.675.8973 rsitty > > ------------- > > > > The information contained in this electronic message may contain > > protected health information confidential under applicable law, and is > > intended only for the use of the individual or entity named above. If > > the recipient of this copy is not the intended recipient, you are > > hereby notified that any dissemination, copy or disclosure of this > > communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this > > communication in error, please notify the sender and purge the > > communication immediately without making any copy or distribution. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________ > Lauren found her dream laptop. Find the PC that’s right for you. > http://www.microsoft.com/windows/choosepc/?ocid=ftp_val_wl_290 > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 3, 2009 Report Share Posted June 3, 2009 Rebekah That is my point. I think the discussion has been taken to such an extreme that issues are looked through lenses, probably on both sides, that makes it too black and white. To say vaccines have no benefit at all is totally ridiculous as is saying they do not have risks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 3, 2009 Report Share Posted June 3, 2009 The Kaiser study is interesting and provides information that should be added to the mix. Though it would be interesting to know how severe the cases were, and the ages. Here's a link on the whooping cough vaccine that provides, in my opinion, some balanced information: http://www.nvic.org/vaccines-and-diseases/Whooping-Cough.aspx I also did research on vaccines 5-7 years ago and here's what I compiled on this vaccine's efficacy (which I have not since updated): " The pertussis vaccine gives immunity in only about 75% of those vaccinated, and immunity lasts for only 3 – 5 years; 10 years at the most. The pertussis vaccine cannot be given past 7 years of age because of severe reactions. A well-designed analysis of pertussis predicts that pertussis would increase 71 times a few years after stopping all pertussis vaccines. There is conflicting evidence, however, over the effectiveness of the vaccine. In one report of an outbreak, 30% were not immunized, while 24% were fully vaccinated. In another outbreak in 1978, over half of the fully vaccinated children who were studied came down with whooping cough. Most recently, however, outbreaks in the Netherlands, one of the most completely vaccinated areas, are being attributed to likely adaptation of the virus to the vaccine. " Clearly, there's no black and white answer. We chose not to vaccinate our kids because of the concern of sending pathogens to the yuan level. This particular vaccine was a tough call, as I have no doubt that vaccines have efficacy, to whatever extent. I see it as a trade-off. By not vaccinating, we risk whooping cough. By vaccinating, we gamble on a theoretical risk of autism, let alone from a TCM perspective a risk of other deep issues, for example, chronic immune disturbance that may not show up until later in life, and therefore never be linked to the vaccination. We did look for case studies in children who got through whooping cough with conventional and natural medicine and decided we'd be willing to take whooping cough on if we had to. Meanwhile, our priority was to keep our kids strong, and shield them from anyone with a cough as best as possible. But I support people who choose to vaccinate, too, especially when they are well-informed on all sides. Best, Abigail Abigail Surasky, LAc (Licensed Acupuncturist/Herbalist) Women's Health, Obstetrics, Pediatrics, Chronic Illness, Digestion, Pain 2006 Dwight Way (Milvia), Suite 208 Berkeley, CA 94704 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Tel. 510-845-8017 Fax 510-841-5551 ___________ Posted by: " Rebekah Sitty L.Ac. " rsitty  rebekahsitty Tue Jun 2, 2009 3:29 pm (PDT) What do you all think about the recent study (may 26) from Kaiser Permanente Colorado's Institute for Health Research in Denver and what it may infer about the protective aspects of vaccines? Whether it is necessary to vaccinate against whooping cough aside, wouldnt this study suggest that some vaccines actually do provide protection against certain illnesses? I ask this because there seem to be a lot of people involved in the vaccine discussion who insist that vaccines do not work at all.: The study looked at 751 children enrolled in a health plan in Colorado between 1996 and 2007, including 156 who got whopping cough, according to their medical records. Among children with whooping cough, 18, or 12 per cent, had parents who refused the vaccine, compared with three or 0.5 per cent in a comparison group of 595 children who didn't get sick and included children who had at least some of the recommended series of five doses. " The study was published online in Pediatrics on 26 May. -Rebekah Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 4, 2009 Report Share Posted June 4, 2009 I'm wondering if something like the swine flu became really wide-spread, would there be mandatory vaccinations nationally (if they were available) ? What if not vaccinating really was a danger to the rest of the population's immediate survival? K On Wed, Jun 3, 2009 at 9:55 AM, Alon Marcus <alonmarcus wrote: > > > Rebekah > That is my point. I think the discussion has been taken to such an extreme > that issues are looked through lenses, probably on both sides, that makes it > too black and white. To say vaccines have no benefit at all is totally > ridiculous as is saying they do not have risks. > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 4, 2009 Report Share Posted June 4, 2009 Andrea Beth and all, Thank you for your keen observation. It is not surprising that whooping cough or tuberculosis or chicken pot resurges. Seems to me they are always around. As clinicans, what really matters are how they are treated. I recalled that several patients were diagnosed of tuberculosis in our public hospitals and there were some caualties. The WM stated that it was because when the strongest pennicillin (van.) were used and ineffective, nothing can be done. Frequent hospitalized patients with weak constitution are at highest risk. It exemplifies again the TCM theory emphasizes the importance of our right qi and treating diseases before they arise. Fortunately, there are some folk food therapy comibined with some herbal medicine that can treat tuberculosis (if WM is not used). It is others experiences. They are expensive though. I have no intention to discuss vaccination because they are not in my domain (though it was the first Chinese medicine doctor who invented vaccination in 16 or 17th centu). One thing I am sure, Tamiflu cannot take as a preventive to defend against human swine flu. It has a total opposite effect.Virus is immuned from it if the same person catches the flu later. SUNG, Yuk-ming Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 4, 2009 Report Share Posted June 4, 2009 BIOSHIELD is already in place mandating the vaccine and whatever it unleashes to the US citizens, this was attached to the back of the Patriot ACT after the frenzy of 911. Getting the vaccine is what puts the viral proteins in play and makes pandemics. Dr. Boyd Haley, leading mercury expert for the entire world has already been on record stating that ofrced vaccinations would incite likely incite riots from those that are keenly aware of the scientific damage that the mercury alone can cause. Presently, there is a court case charging the WHO for purposely mixing those viruses. Jane Burgemeister I believe is the name of the Plaintiff, but she states clearly the entire world is the plantiff. Sincerely, Patricia Jordan DVM,CVA,CTCVM & Herbology Chinese Medicine johnkokko Wed, 3 Jun 2009 21:32:45 -0700 Re: Re: whooping cough resurgence I'm wondering if something like the swine flu became really wide-spread, would there be mandatory vaccinations nationally (if they were available) ? What if not vaccinating really was a danger to the rest of the population's immediate survival? K On Wed, Jun 3, 2009 at 9:55 AM, Alon Marcus <alonmarcus wrote: > > > Rebekah > That is my point. I think the discussion has been taken to such an extreme > that issues are looked through lenses, probably on both sides, that makes it > too black and white. To say vaccines have no benefit at all is totally > ridiculous as is saying they do not have risks. > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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