Guest guest Posted May 12, 2009 Report Share Posted May 12, 2009 Hi, let me pipe in on the anti-depressants. I earned a degree in psychology and reviewed a lot of those studies. If you are interested in the subject you need to read what a guy called " Kirsch " published. He used statistics and reevaluated the original data collected for the official study that let to FDA approval for SSRIs, and guess what? He found that those statistics were flawed ( I am trying to avoid the term manipulated) and when Kirsch recalculated the difference between REAL medication and placebo, it was very small. And guess what else? When he tried to publish his research he could not get any mainstream journals to accept his articles! According to Kirsch, the placebo effect for depression is strong, stronger than for other medications, what seems to explain why clients are usually absolutely sure that their medications are " working. " One other note: the European are using a new anti-depression drug, tianeptine, and it REDUCES serotonin, it's called a SSRE (Selective Serotonin Reputake Enhancer) and it works statistically exactly as well as Prozac. An American company bought the rights to market it in the US, but they are not interested, I bet they are waiting until the patents for the SSRIs are expired. Regards, Angela Pfaffenberger, Ph.D. angelapfa www.InnerhealthSalem.com Phone: 503 364 3022 - alon marcus Chinese Medicine Tuesday, May 12, 2009 8:31 AM Re: Vaccination - Whom can we trust? " In all of my research, I've continually found the same answer. A similar argument can be drawn with - /at least/ certain - pharmaceuticals. Depression medications are still prescribed even though studies show they work only as good as a placebo. Cholesterol lowering drugs are still prescribed even though they continually show to not lower cholesterol. " Josh these statement show that you like to ignore evidence and choose only those that support your views. The VAST majority of studies on antidepressants show that they do work... as are studies on cholesterol drugs. You may argue that lowering cholesterol is not smart or that death rates dont change but not lowering cholesterol that is ignorant. 400 29th St. Suite 419 Oakland Ca 94609 alonmarcus Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 13, 2009 Report Share Posted May 13, 2009 I find the " reworked " studies interesting. For some reason people seem to more easily believe these " reworked " statistics above the hundreds of other scientists that wrote the original studies. While i do think studies done by drug companies can be and probably often are biased, there are many other studies on antidepressants and other drugs done by independent centers, and often multicenter studies which make it a little harder to play with the numbers, or even studies on the older TCAs that were done way before the strong influence of drug companies on research that were positive. I have been working in integrative centers for 25 years and seen hundreds of patients benefit strongly from antidepressants, to believe these " reworked " stuff. While i also know we can often offer other choices for many patients, to say antidepressants do not work i think is a big stretch. I have also seen patients were alternatives did not work and of course i have seen patients doing much better with alternatives than with the pharmaceuticals. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 13, 2009 Report Share Posted May 13, 2009 Are we aware that the FBI (I think it was them) that has found that in the mass killings by children, anti-depressants appear to have been involved by the perpetrators. This news has not been really investigated because the perps were minors and the drug companies do not want any bad press. Side-effects do list the same issues as the condition. Kind of makes you wonder. Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc Chinese Medicine alonmarcus Wed, 13 May 2009 10:24:35 -0700 Re:Whom can we trust? I find the " reworked " studies interesting. For some reason people seem to more easily believe these " reworked " statistics above the hundreds of other scientists that wrote the original studies. While i do think studies done by drug companies can be and probably often are biased, there are many other studies on antidepressants and other drugs done by independent centers, and often multicenter studies which make it a little harder to play with the numbers, or even studies on the older TCAs that were done way before the strong influence of drug companies on research that were positive. I have been working in integrative centers for 25 years and seen hundreds of patients benefit strongly from antidepressants, to believe these " reworked " stuff. While i also know we can often offer other choices for many patients, to say antidepressants do not work i think is a big stretch. I have also seen patients were alternatives did not work and of course i have seen patients doing much better with alternatives than with the pharmaceuticals. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 13, 2009 Report Share Posted May 13, 2009 Hi Angela, I would be very interested in reading what has been published by Kirsch; could you link me? I am curious if this is related to the recent study published in the American Journal of Psychiatry that mentioned the problems with the phase III trials (http://ajp.psychiatryonline.org/cgi/content/abstract/appi.ajp.2008.08071027v1) Thanks, - Josh Barton, C.M.T., H.H.C. >Chinese Medicine , " Angela >Pfaffenberger, PH.D. " <angelapfa wrote: > > Hi, let me pipe in on the anti-depressants. I earned a degree in psychology and reviewed a lot of those studies. If you are interested in the subject you need to read what a guy called " Kirsch " published. He used statistics and reevaluated the original data collected for the official study that let to FDA approval for SSRIs, and guess what? He found that those statistics were flawed ( I am trying to avoid the term manipulated) and when Kirsch recalculated the difference between REAL medication and placebo, it was very small. And guess what else? When he tried to publish his research he could not get any mainstream journals to accept his articles! > According to Kirsch, the placebo effect for depression is strong, stronger than for other medications, what seems to explain why clients are usually absolutely sure that their medications are " working. " > One other note: the European are using a new anti-depression drug, tianeptine, and it REDUCES serotonin, it's called a SSRE (Selective Serotonin Reputake Enhancer) and it works statistically exactly as well as Prozac. An American company bought the rights to market it in the US, but they are not interested, I bet they are waiting until the patents for the SSRIs are expired. > > Regards, > Angela Pfaffenberger, Ph.D. > > angelapfa > > www.InnerhealthSalem.com > > Phone: 503 364 3022 > - > alon marcus > Chinese Medicine > Tuesday, May 12, 2009 8:31 AM > Re: Vaccination - Whom can we trust? > > > > > > " In all of my research, I've continually found the same answer. > A similar argument can be drawn with - /at least/ certain - > pharmaceuticals. Depression medications are still prescribed even > though studies show they work only as good as a placebo. Cholesterol > lowering drugs are still prescribed even though they continually show > to not lower cholesterol. " > > Josh these statement show that you like to ignore evidence and choose > only those that support your views. The VAST majority of studies on > antidepressants show that they do work... as are studies on > cholesterol drugs. You may argue that lowering cholesterol is not > smart or that death rates dont change but not lowering cholesterol > that is ignorant. > > > > 400 29th St. Suite 419 > Oakland Ca 94609 > > > > alonmarcus > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 14, 2009 Report Share Posted May 14, 2009 Are we aware that the FBI (I think it was them) that has found that in the mass killings by children, anti-depressants appear to have been involved by the perpetrators. This news has not been really investigated because the perps were minors and the drug companies do not want any bad press. Side-effects do list the same issues as the condition. Kind of makes you wonder. >>>>mike do your research this idea as been disputed 400 29th St. Suite 419 Oakland Ca 94609 alonmarcus Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 14, 2009 Report Share Posted May 14, 2009 You raise a good point, Mike. Dr. Gary Null did a documentary film that focused a lot on this called The Drugging of Our Children (http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-3609599239524875493). What I find interesting is the in-depth look it takes into some of the individuals that did this. From what I remember of the film, some of these kids talk about being in a dream-like state when these events took place. To the best of my knowledge, every school-shooter (at least that's hit the media) (save for one of the kids involved in the Columbine incident) was on SSRI's at the time (I am not aware of the individual reasons why they were on them, however). Given, many lay the blame on the fact that they were (or seemed to be) depressed and that's why they were on the drugs, but considering the information disclosed in Null's film, I think this should be investigated. I googled " SSRI school shooting " and I found something interesting: An article from the Guardian from 1999 says (speaking about a family's court case against Eli Lilly for Prozac) " Internal documents belonging to Lilly were produced in court. And although Lilly won the case - the jury decided it could not hold it responsible for Bill Forsyth Sr's death - it may have lost the argument, for those documents showed that Lilly knew as long as 20 years ago that Prozac can produce in some people a strange, agitated state of mind that can trigger in them an unstoppable urge to commit suicide or murder. " (http://www.guardian.co.uk/theguardian/1999/oct/30/weekend7.weekend1) - Josh Barton, C.M.T., H.H.C. Chinese Medicine , mike Bowser <naturaldoc1 wrote: > > > Are we aware that the FBI (I think it was them) that has found that in the mass killings by children, anti-depressants appear to have been involved by the perpetrators. This news has not been really investigated because the perps were minors and the drug companies do not want any bad press. Side-effects do list the same issues as the condition. Kind of makes you wonder. > > Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 15, 2009 Report Share Posted May 15, 2009 Alon, Kirsch's study was based on the data that the drug companies submitted to the FDA. After submitting their data to the FDA, they naturally then decided to publish the data in a medical journal; it was there that the numbers were skewered. A separate study published in the NEJM last year ( " Selective Publication of Antidepressant Trials and Its Influence on Apparent Efficacy " ) came to the same conclusions: http://content.nejm.org/cgi/content/short/358/3/252 John McManamy ( " an award-winning mental health journalist " ) puts much of this into perspective here: http://www.mcmanweb.com/clinical_trials.html It's not that these anti-depressants don't work. They work, but largely as a placebo. That's what the data is showing us. -- Josh Barton, C.M.T., H.H.C. Chinese Medicine , " Alon Marcus " <alonmarcus wrote: > > I find the " reworked " studies interesting. For some reason people seem to more easily believe these " reworked " statistics above the hundreds of other scientists that wrote the original studies. While i do think studies done by drug companies can be and probably often are biased, there are many other studies on antidepressants and other drugs done by independent centers, and often multicenter studies which make it a little harder to play with the numbers, or even studies on the older TCAs that were done way before the strong influence of drug companies on research that were positive. I have been working in integrative centers for 25 years and seen hundreds of patients benefit strongly from antidepressants, to believe these " reworked " stuff. While i also know we can often offer other choices for many patients, to say antidepressants do not work i think is a big stretch. I have also seen patients were alternatives did not work and of course i have seen patients doing much better with alternatives than with the pharmaceuticals. > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 17, 2009 Report Share Posted May 17, 2009 Angela Kirsch work is published. He brings some interesting questions but no answers yet. To me the most compelling evidence are the longer term studies were placebo effects tend to fall off. From the studies i reviewed, and its been a while since i looked at SSRIs, it looked like the longer the study the the bigger the effect difference. Anyone that works with me know that i alway poopo results patients report for the first few weeks to months (except for objective physical findings), i call it the honeymoon period were, it is very hard to have patients NOT report they are feeling better. As far as Tianeptine we do not know what the post synaptic actions is. Perhaps that is the mechanism of action. It sounds like it has some stimulant like effects 400 29th St. Suite 419 Oakland Ca 94609 alonmarcus Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 17, 2009 Report Share Posted May 17, 2009 Josh Not publishing negative studies is a huge problem and as far as i know the new rules prohibit it. I think all registered studies have to be published and i think it is because of the study you quoted. 400 29th St. Suite 419 Oakland Ca 94609 alonmarcus Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 18, 2009 Report Share Posted May 18, 2009 Alon, Thank you for the input, I was not aware of that. If you happen to have more information on that, could you link me to something? I am curious as to how the results from the study (http://tinyurl.com/d8m6tp) published in last month's American Journal of Psychiatry will play out.. -- Josh Barton , C.M.T., H.H.C. Chinese Medicine , alon marcus <alonmarcus wrote: > > Josh > Not publishing negative studies is a huge problem and as far as i know > the new rules prohibit it. I think all registered studies have to be > published and i think it is because of the study you quoted. > > > > > 400 29th St. Suite 419 > Oakland Ca 94609 > > > > alonmarcus Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 19, 2009 Report Share Posted May 19, 2009 Josh i believe its a new FDA rule 400 29th St. Suite 419 Oakland Ca 94609 alonmarcus Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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