Guest guest Posted May 12, 2009 Report Share Posted May 12, 2009 This study is interesting because it addresses the usual complaint that these studies don't allow L.Acs to use individually tailored treatments according to best practice - one of the groups was indeed allowed to do so. Nevertheless, it was no better than standardized TCM protocol or *toothpicks*. So, either all acupuncture is nonspecific, OR perhaps " standard " (i.e. TCM-based) treatments are really not specific. I certainly noticed better results after trying out Richard Tan / Master Tung style vs. TCM, and we don't really know what these folks were using, but as I'm sure everyone here has seen, results between acupuncturists vary widely, and referrals to other L.Ac.'s often fail to produce similar results to our own. But maybe it's all a placebo-spectrum effect (i.e. practitioner - patient interaction) vs. actual technique. Or, acupuncture is just very, very hard to do right, and few people are better than mere random tapping of toothpicks. -Ben Hawes, L.Ac. http://www.medpagetoday.com/PrimaryCare/AlternativeMedicine/14148?userid=31145 & i\ mpressionId=1242094115497 & utm_source=mSpoke & utm_medium=email & utm_campaign=DailyH\ eadlines & utm_content=GroupD <http://www.medpagetoday.com/PrimaryCare/AlternativeMedicine/14148?userid=31145 & \ impressionId=1242094115497 & utm_source=mSpoke & utm_medium=email & utm_campaign=Daily\ Headlines & utm_content=GroupD> Trial Fails to Settle Questions About Acupuncture for Low Back Pain By John Gever, Senior Editor, MedPage Today Published: May 11, 2009 Reviewed by Dori F. Zaleznik, MD </reviewer.cfm?reviewerid=512>; Associate Clinical Professor of Medicine, Harvard Medical School, Boston. Earn CME/CE credit for reading medical news </posttest.cfm?testpage=14148 & TBID=14148 & topicid=141> Copy the code below to embed video on your website or blog: Video Source: Group Health Center for Health Studies WHEELING, W.Va., May 11 -- Acupuncture was more effective than conventional treatment for relieving lower back pain in a randomized trial, but performed no better than poking patients gently with toothpicks. Roland-Morris Dysfunction Questionnaire scores improved by a mean of 4.4 to 4.5 points with genuine acupuncture compared with a 2.1 point improvement with " usual care " (/P/<0.001), typically consisting of drugs and physical therapy, according to Daniel C. Cherkin, Ph.D., of the Center for Health Studies in Seattle, and colleagues. Yet patients receiving the simulated acupuncture also showed mean improvement of 4.4 points, the researchers reported in the May 11 issue of /Archives of Internal Medicine/. Action Points ------ * Explain to interested patients that controlled trials have demonstrated benefit from acupuncture for certain types of chronic pain compared with conventional treatment, but a placebo effect may account for the finding. * Explain that this trial used a novel comparison treatment in which needles were not inserted but may still have stimulated acupuncture points. They concluded that the study supports a therapeutic benefit for acupuncture-point stimulation. But Dr. Cherkin and colleagues said the findings also " raise questions about acupuncture's purported mechanisms of action. " The study randomized 638 patients with chronic lower back pain to four treatments: individualized acupuncture, in which experienced acupuncturists determined needle placements for each patient according to their clinical judgment; standardized acupuncture in which eight needles were placed at points established in traditional Chinese medicine as appropriate for lower back pain; usual care; and the simulated acupuncture procedure. The simulation involved placing a small guide tube against the eight standard acupuncture points and using a toothpick to gently tap and twist against the skin. Dr. Cherkin and colleagues said the sensation is similar to an actual needle insertion but does not break the skin. The procedure was done twice, 10 minutes apart, to simulate needle insertion followed by withdrawal. Patients in all groups except usual care wore eye masks and their heads were placed in face cradles, blinding them -- literally -- to the specific mode of treatment. Treatments lasted seven weeks with the primary evaluation conducted at week eight. Additional follow-ups were performed at weeks 26 and 52. Mean age of patients was 47, 62% were female, and 68% were white, about two-thirds reported chronic pain for at least one year, and a similar fraction reported medication use in the previous week. Less than a quarter, however, said they had reduced activity or stayed in bed for significant periods recently because of back pain. On a 10-point scale, the mean expectation that acupuncture would be helpful was 6.7. Mean Roland-Morris scores at baseline were 10.6 (SD 5.2). Improvements seen at eight weeks were largely maintained at the later follow-ups. In the case of usual care, an additional one-point improvement over week eight scores was found at week 52, although the total improvement relative to baseline remained smaller than was seen with the three acupuncture-type treatments (/P/=0.001 after adjusting for age, sex, and baseline score). Patients in all treatment groups, including usual care, also rated their back pain as significantly less bothersome at weeks eight and 26, but not at the one-year evaluation. Again, more improvement was seen in the three acupuncture-type groups than with usual care. And again, the simulated procedure seemed just as effective as the two treatments in which needles were used. Dr. Cherkin and colleagues said the findings echoed those of other trials that found equal efficacy with acupuncture and some kind of sham procedure, with either outperforming usual care. (See Acupuncture Works for Headache But So Does Fake Needling <http://www.medpagetoday.com/PainManagement/Migraines/12555>) They said this could reflect some kind of placebo effect. Or, they speculated, " superficial acupuncture point stimulation directly stimulates physiological processes that ultimately lead to improved pain and function. " The latter possibility has been supported in earlier studies, including one demonstrating that light touch stimulates " mechanoreceptors " that in turn induce hormonal and emotional reactions related to pain. Regardless of the mechanism, though, Dr. Cherkin and colleagues said it now appears clear that acupuncture and other similar treatments can be more effective than conventional therapy for lower back pain, especially when ordinary treatment has failed. " Furthermore, the reduction in long-term exposure to the potential adverse effects of medications is an important benefit that may enhance the safety of conventional medical care, " they wrote. -- ATTENTION: Protected by Federal Law! The documents accompanying this transmission contain confidential health care information that is legally privileged and intended for the below-named individual or entity only. The recipient of this document is prohibited from disclosing its contents and is required by law to destroy this information once authorized fulfillment is complete. If you have received this transmission in error, please contact sender immediately. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 12, 2009 Report Share Posted May 12, 2009 What it does say, and everyone apparently misses the real point, is that even bad acupuncture is twice as good as the best western medicine has to offer It says something about allopathic/western medicine. Dr.Don J. Snow, DAOM, MPH, L.Ac. Chinese Medicine bhawes Tue, 12 May 2009 14:14:03 -0600 Apparently well-designed low back pain AP study produces potentially bad results This study is interesting because it addresses the usual complaint that these studies don't allow L.Acs to use individually tailored treatments according to best practice - one of the groups was indeed allowed to do so. Nevertheless, it was no better than standardized TCM protocol or *toothpicks*. So, either all acupuncture is nonspecific, OR perhaps " standard " (i.e. TCM-based) treatments are really not specific. I certainly noticed better results after trying out Richard Tan / Master Tung style vs. TCM, and we don't really know what these folks were using, but as I'm sure everyone here has seen, results between acupuncturists vary widely, and referrals to other L.Ac.'s often fail to produce similar results to our own. But maybe it's all a placebo-spectrum effect (i.e. practitioner - patient interaction) vs. actual technique. Or, acupuncture is just very, very hard to do right, and few people are better than mere random tapping of toothpicks. -Ben Hawes, L.Ac. http://www.medpagetoday.com/PrimaryCare/AlternativeMedicine/14148?userid=31145 & i\ mpressionId=1242094115497 & utm_source=mSpoke & utm_medium=email & utm_campaign=DailyH\ eadlines & utm_content=GroupD <http://www.medpagetoday.com/PrimaryCare/AlternativeMedicine/14148?userid=31145 & \ impressionId=1242094115497 & utm_source=mSpoke & utm_medium=email & utm_campaign=Daily\ Headlines & utm_content=GroupD> Trial Fails to Settle Questions About Acupuncture for Low Back Pain By John Gever, Senior Editor, MedPage Today Published: May 11, 2009 Reviewed by Dori F. Zaleznik, MD </reviewer.cfm?reviewerid=512>; Associate Clinical Professor of Medicine, Harvard Medical School, Boston. Earn CME/CE credit for reading medical news </posttest.cfm?testpage=14148 & TBID=14148 & topicid=141> Copy the code below to embed video on your website or blog: Video Source: Group Health Center for Health Studies WHEELING, W.Va., May 11 -- Acupuncture was more effective than conventional treatment for relieving lower back pain in a randomized trial, but performed no better than poking patients gently with toothpicks. Roland-Morris Dysfunction Questionnaire scores improved by a mean of 4.4 to 4.5 points with genuine acupuncture compared with a 2.1 point improvement with " usual care " (/P/<0.001), typically consisting of drugs and physical therapy, according to Daniel C. Cherkin, Ph.D., of the Center for Health Studies in Seattle, and colleagues. Yet patients receiving the simulated acupuncture also showed mean improvement of 4.4 points, the researchers reported in the May 11 issue of /Archives of Internal Medicine/. Action Points ------------------------- * Explain to interested patients that controlled trials have demonstrated benefit from acupuncture for certain types of chronic pain compared with conventional treatment, but a placebo effect may account for the finding. * Explain that this trial used a novel comparison treatment in which needles were not inserted but may still have stimulated acupuncture points. They concluded that the study supports a therapeutic benefit for acupuncture-point stimulation. But Dr. Cherkin and colleagues said the findings also " raise questions about acupuncture's purported mechanisms of action. " The study randomized 638 patients with chronic lower back pain to four treatments: individualized acupuncture, in which experienced acupuncturists determined needle placements for each patient according to their clinical judgment; standardized acupuncture in which eight needles were placed at points established in traditional Chinese medicine as appropriate for lower back pain; usual care; and the simulated acupuncture procedure. The simulation involved placing a small guide tube against the eight standard acupuncture points and using a toothpick to gently tap and twist against the skin. Dr. Cherkin and colleagues said the sensation is similar to an actual needle insertion but does not break the skin. The procedure was done twice, 10 minutes apart, to simulate needle insertion followed by withdrawal. Patients in all groups except usual care wore eye masks and their heads were placed in face cradles, blinding them -- literally -- to the specific mode of treatment. Treatments lasted seven weeks with the primary evaluation conducted at week eight. Additional follow-ups were performed at weeks 26 and 52. Mean age of patients was 47, 62% were female, and 68% were white, about two-thirds reported chronic pain for at least one year, and a similar fraction reported medication use in the previous week. Less than a quarter, however, said they had reduced activity or stayed in bed for significant periods recently because of back pain. On a 10-point scale, the mean expectation that acupuncture would be helpful was 6.7. Mean Roland-Morris scores at baseline were 10.6 (SD 5.2). Improvements seen at eight weeks were largely maintained at the later follow-ups. In the case of usual care, an additional one-point improvement over week eight scores was found at week 52, although the total improvement relative to baseline remained smaller than was seen with the three acupuncture-type treatments (/P/=0.001 after adjusting for age, sex, and baseline score). Patients in all treatment groups, including usual care, also rated their back pain as significantly less bothersome at weeks eight and 26, but not at the one-year evaluation. Again, more improvement was seen in the three acupuncture-type groups than with usual care. And again, the simulated procedure seemed just as effective as the two treatments in which needles were used. Dr. Cherkin and colleagues said the findings echoed those of other trials that found equal efficacy with acupuncture and some kind of sham procedure, with either outperforming usual care. (See Acupuncture Works for Headache But So Does Fake Needling <http://www.medpagetoday.com/PainManagement/Migraines/12555>) They said this could reflect some kind of placebo effect. Or, they speculated, " superficial acupuncture point stimulation directly stimulates physiological processes that ultimately lead to improved pain and function. " The latter possibility has been supported in earlier studies, including one demonstrating that light touch stimulates " mechanoreceptors " that in turn induce hormonal and emotional reactions related to pain. Regardless of the mechanism, though, Dr. Cherkin and colleagues said it now appears clear that acupuncture and other similar treatments can be more effective than conventional therapy for lower back pain, especially when ordinary treatment has failed. " Furthermore, the reduction in long-term exposure to the potential adverse effects of medications is an important benefit that may enhance the safety of conventional medical care, " they wrote. -- ATTENTION: Protected by Federal Law! The documents accompanying this transmission contain confidential health care information that is legally privileged and intended for the below-named individual or entity only. The recipient of this document is prohibited from disclosing its contents and is required by law to destroy this information once authorized fulfillment is complete. If you have received this transmission in error, please contact sender immediately. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 13, 2009 Report Share Posted May 13, 2009 Hi Benjamin. A very important possibility that you miss in your post and that most will not consider is that there is something seriously wrong with even the best designed studies. There are fundamental flaws with the current research system. I have some very defined opinions on what these flaws are, but these will need to take the form of a paper, and this paper will definitely need collaboration. It is my opinion that we need to get our heads out of biomedicine's rear-end aperture and start seriously doubting their stories. Not rejecting or ignoring their stories but *doubting* them. That means examining them and taking them apart, piece by piece. Hugo ________________________________ Hugo Ramiro http://middlemedicine.wordpress.com http://www.chinesemedicaltherapies.org ________________________________ " Benjamin Hawes, L.Ac. " <bhawes Chinese Medicine Tuesday, 12 May, 2009 16:14:03 Apparently well-designed low back pain AP study produces potentially bad results This study is interesting because it addresses the usual complaint that these studies don't allow L.Acs to use individually tailored treatments according to best practice - one of the groups was indeed allowed to do so. Nevertheless, it was no better than standardized TCM protocol or *toothpicks* . So, either all acupuncture is nonspecific, OR perhaps " standard " (i.e. TCM-based) treatments are really not specific. I certainly noticed better results after trying out Richard Tan / Master Tung style vs. TCM, and we don't really know what these folks were using, but as I'm sure everyone here has seen, results between acupuncturists vary widely, and referrals to other L.Ac.'s often fail to produce similar results to our own. But maybe it's all a placebo-spectrum effect (i.e. practitioner - patient interaction) vs. actual technique. Or, acupuncture is just very, very hard to do right, and few people are better than mere random tapping of toothpicks. -Ben Hawes, L.Ac. http://www.medpaget oday.com/ PrimaryCare/ AlternativeMedic ine/14148? userid=31145 & impressionId= 1242094115497 & utm_source= mSpoke & utm_ medium=email & utm_campaign= DailyHeadlines & utm_content= GroupD <http://www.medpaget oday.com/ PrimaryCare/ AlternativeMedic ine/14148? userid=31145 & impressionId= 1242094115497 & utm_source= mSpoke & utm_ medium=email & utm_campaign= DailyHeadlines & utm_content= GroupD> Trial Fails to Settle Questions About Acupuncture for Low Back Pain By John Gever, Senior Editor, MedPage Today Published: May 11, 2009 Reviewed by Dori F. Zaleznik, MD </reviewer.cfm? reviewerid= 512>; Associate Clinical Professor of Medicine, Harvard Medical School, Boston. Earn CME/CE credit for reading medical news </posttest.cfm? testpage= 14148 & TBID= 14148 & topicid= 141> Copy the code below to embed video on your website or blog: Video Source: Group Health Center for Health Studies WHEELING, W.Va., May 11 -- Acupuncture was more effective than conventional treatment for relieving lower back pain in a randomized trial, but performed no better than poking patients gently with toothpicks. Roland-Morris Dysfunction Questionnaire scores improved by a mean of 4.4 to 4.5 points with genuine acupuncture compared with a 2.1 point improvement with " usual care " (/P/<0.001), typically consisting of drugs and physical therapy, according to Daniel C. Cherkin, Ph.D., of the Center for Health Studies in Seattle, and colleagues. Yet patients receiving the simulated acupuncture also showed mean improvement of 4.4 points, the researchers reported in the May 11 issue of /Archives of Internal Medicine/. Action Points ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- - * Explain to interested patients that controlled trials have demonstrated benefit from acupuncture for certain types of chronic pain compared with conventional treatment, but a placebo effect may account for the finding. * Explain that this trial used a novel comparison treatment in which needles were not inserted but may still have stimulated acupuncture points. They concluded that the study supports a therapeutic benefit for acupuncture- point stimulation. But Dr. Cherkin and colleagues said the findings also " raise questions about acupuncture' s purported mechanisms of action. " The study randomized 638 patients with chronic lower back pain to four treatments: individualized acupuncture, in which experienced acupuncturists determined needle placements for each patient according to their clinical judgment; standardized acupuncture in which eight needles were placed at points established in traditional Chinese medicine as appropriate for lower back pain; usual care; and the simulated acupuncture procedure. The simulation involved placing a small guide tube against the eight standard acupuncture points and using a toothpick to gently tap and twist against the skin. Dr. Cherkin and colleagues said the sensation is similar to an actual needle insertion but does not break the skin. The procedure was done twice, 10 minutes apart, to simulate needle insertion followed by withdrawal. Patients in all groups except usual care wore eye masks and their heads were placed in face cradles, blinding them -- literally -- to the specific mode of treatment. Treatments lasted seven weeks with the primary evaluation conducted at week eight. Additional follow-ups were performed at weeks 26 and 52. Mean age of patients was 47, 62% were female, and 68% were white, about two-thirds reported chronic pain for at least one year, and a similar fraction reported medication use in the previous week. Less than a quarter, however, said they had reduced activity or stayed in bed for significant periods recently because of back pain. On a 10-point scale, the mean expectation that acupuncture would be helpful was 6.7. Mean Roland-Morris scores at baseline were 10.6 (SD 5.2). Improvements seen at eight weeks were largely maintained at the later follow-ups. In the case of usual care, an additional one-point improvement over week eight scores was found at week 52, although the total improvement relative to baseline remained smaller than was seen with the three acupuncture- type treatments (/P/=0.001 after adjusting for age, sex, and baseline score). Patients in all treatment groups, including usual care, also rated their back pain as significantly less bothersome at weeks eight and 26, but not at the one-year evaluation. Again, more improvement was seen in the three acupuncture- type groups than with usual care. And again, the simulated procedure seemed just as effective as the two treatments in which needles were used. Dr. Cherkin and colleagues said the findings echoed those of other trials that found equal efficacy with acupuncture and some kind of sham procedure, with either outperforming usual care. (See Acupuncture Works for Headache But So Does Fake Needling <http://www.medpaget oday.com/ PainManagement/ Migraines/ 12555>) They said this could reflect some kind of placebo effect. Or, they speculated, " superficial acupuncture point stimulation directly stimulates physiological processes that ultimately lead to improved pain and function. " The latter possibility has been supported in earlier studies, including one demonstrating that light touch stimulates " mechanoreceptors " that in turn induce hormonal and emotional reactions related to pain. Regardless of the mechanism, though, Dr. Cherkin and colleagues said it now appears clear that acupuncture and other similar treatments can be more effective than conventional therapy for lower back pain, especially when ordinary treatment has failed. " Furthermore, the reduction in long-term exposure to the potential adverse effects of medications is an important benefit that may enhance the safety of conventional medical care, " they wrote. -- ATTENTION: Protected by Federal Law! The documents accompanying this transmission contain confidential health care information that is legally privileged and intended for the below-named individual or entity only. The recipient of this document is prohibited from disclosing its contents and is required by law to destroy this information once authorized fulfillment is complete. If you have received this transmission in error, please contact sender immediately. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 13, 2009 Report Share Posted May 13, 2009 The study is pointing out what Shudo Denmei said 2 weeks ago in SF... that non-insertion needling (contact technique) can elicit Qi just as well or better (with proper technique) than just piercing a needle through the skin and waiting for a fish to bite the line. Of course, it depends on certain points... the areas where there is a lot of adipose tissue requires needle insertion. It would be interesting to look at this on a physiological level and see what happens with fat and the insulation of Qi vs areas of the body where the nerves and fascia are more superficial to the touch. It's great news that the researchers wrote, " superficial acupuncture point stimulation directly stimulates physiological processes that ultimately lead to improved pain and function. " Shudo said that non-insertion needling is the technique for the future. > > > I'm practicing non-insertion needling and find this to be true for some points, but not all of them. When non-insertion stimulation does not change the hara reflexes, then superficial insertion (about 1-2 mm) will usually have the same effect as a typical TCM insertion or better. (as many Japanese schools have been practicing, since the return to the classics). One can just read the Jia yi jing (based on the Nei jing) and read the classical needling depths... 1-3 fen,,, 5-7 fen (a fen is 1/10 of a cun). Where did the deep TCM insertion levels come from historically?, not from the Nei jing. There are different physiological mechanisms at work, depending on which type of tissue we connect with during needling. Also, concurrent with that thought, different types of Qi are communicated with, depending on the depth (wei qi, ying qi, yuan qi). Tung family style talks about this too... depth of needling of the same point, such as Zu san li (ST 36) can change its functions and its focus. We have already confirmed that stimulation of acu-points reduces pain in the body. We don't need more research studies questioning if acupuncture works or not. They've been doing that for 3 decades now. We should being hooking up people to MRIs and seeing what happens when we do contact needling vs superficial insertion, middle-depth insertion and deep insertion. Then we could be getting somewhere. K -- Turtle Island Integrative Health TCM Review director CA State Board Prep Courses www.tcmreview.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 13, 2009 Report Share Posted May 13, 2009 John - try doing needling with no needles, just the finger tip, no pressure. Great, I find, for spirit level treatments, not as effective for recalcitrant pain, at least not yet for me. karen Karen R. Adams, Lic Ac, Dipl Ac 25 - 27 Bank Row Greenfield, MA 01301 413-768-8333 Do or do not. There is no try. Yoda, The Empire Strikes Back ________________________________ <johnkokko Chinese Medicine Wednesday, May 13, 2009 10:40:27 AM Re: Apparently well-designed low back pain AP study produces potentially bad results The study is pointing out what Shudo Denmei said 2 weeks ago in SF... that non-insertion needling (contact technique) can elicit Qi just as well or better (with proper technique) than just piercing a needle through the skin and waiting for a fish to bite the line. Of course, it depends on certain points... the areas where there is a lot of adipose tissue requires needle insertion. It would be interesting to look at this on a physiological level and see what happens with fat and the insulation of Qi vs areas of the body where the nerves and fascia are more superficial to the touch. It's great news that the researchers wrote, " superficial acupuncture point stimulation directly stimulates physiological processes that ultimately lead to improved pain and function. " Shudo said that non-insertion needling is the technique for the future. > > > I'm practicing non-insertion needling and find this to be true for some points, but not all of them. When non-insertion stimulation does not change the hara reflexes, then superficial insertion (about 1-2 mm) will usually have the same effect as a typical TCM insertion or better. (as many Japanese schools have been practicing, since the return to the classics). One can just read the Jia yi jing (based on the Nei jing) and read the classical needling depths... 1-3 fen,,, 5-7 fen (a fen is 1/10 of a cun). Where did the deep TCM insertion levels come from historically? , not from the Nei jing. There are different physiological mechanisms at work, depending on which type of tissue we connect with during needling. Also, concurrent with that thought, different types of Qi are communicated with, depending on the depth (wei qi, ying qi, yuan qi). Tung family style talks about this too... depth of needling of the same point, such as Zu san li (ST 36) can change its functions and its focus. We have already confirmed that stimulation of acu-points reduces pain in the body. We don't need more research studies questioning if acupuncture works or not. They've been doing that for 3 decades now. We should being hooking up people to MRIs and seeing what happens when we do contact needling vs superficial insertion, middle-depth insertion and deep insertion. Then we could be getting somewhere. K -- Turtle Island Integrative Health www.turtleclinic. com TCM Review director CA State Board Prep Courses www.tcmreview. com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 13, 2009 Report Share Posted May 13, 2009 I am in my 8th semester of Acupuncture school and have been doing Tui Na Massage and acupressure for 8 years. I get similar results from both acupresure and acupuncture, but find it takes less of my time to use needling. I have also noticed my effectiveness with acupressure has increased significantly as my diagnostic skills have grown. In Light John Flavin Soon to be L. AC. Dipl. NCCAOM A.B.T. Chinese Medicine , Karen Adams <turusachan wrote: > > John - try doing needling with no needles, just the finger tip, no pressure. Great, I find, for spirit level treatments, not as effective for recalcitrant pain, at least not yet for me. > karen > > > > Karen R. Adams, > Lic Ac, Dipl Ac > 25 - 27 Bank Row > Greenfield, MA 01301 > 413-768-8333 > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 13, 2009 Report Share Posted May 13, 2009 Karen, Yeah. Medical qi gong can do anything, as long as you have that proficiency. I don't at this point. I can make changes, but not for everything I want to, plus it makes me more tired than using the needles. The needles focus my Qi and the guide tube can be a very effective tool as they have developed in Japan since the time of Sugiyama. I notice for spiritual issues, sometimes qi gong, sometimes blood letting. Sometimes raw herbs, sometimes essential oils (like J. Yuen) Sometimes small doses, sometimes large doses. How can you tell? K On Wed, May 13, 2009 at 8:16 AM, Karen Adams <turusachan wrote: > > > John - try doing needling with no needles, just the finger tip, no > pressure. Great, I find, for spirit level treatments, not as effective for > recalcitrant pain, at least not yet for me. > karen > > Karen R. Adams, > Lic Ac, Dipl Ac > 25 - 27 Bank Row > Greenfield, MA 01301 > 413-768-8333 > > Do or do not. > There is no try. > > Yoda, The Empire Strikes Back > > ________________________________ > <johnkokko <johnkokko%40gmail.com>> > > To: Chinese Medicine <Chinese Medicine%40yaho\ ogroups.com> > Wednesday, May 13, 2009 10:40:27 AM > Re: Apparently well-designed low back pain AP study produces > potentially bad results > > > The study is pointing out what Shudo Denmei said 2 weeks ago in SF... > that non-insertion needling (contact technique) can elicit Qi just as well > or better > (with proper technique) than just piercing a needle through the skin > and waiting for a fish to bite the line. > > Of course, it depends on certain points... the areas where there is a lot > of > adipose tissue requires needle insertion. It would be interesting to look > at this > on a physiological level and see what happens with fat and the insulation > of > Qi > vs areas of the body where the nerves and fascia are more superficial to > the > touch. > > It's great news that the researchers wrote, > " superficial acupuncture point stimulation directly > stimulates physiological processes that ultimately lead to improved pain > and function. " > > Shudo said that non-insertion needling is the technique for the future. > > > > > > > > I'm practicing non-insertion needling and find this to be true for some > points, > but not all of them. When non-insertion stimulation does not change the > hara reflexes, > then superficial insertion (about 1-2 mm) will usually have the same effect > as > a typical TCM insertion or better. (as many Japanese schools have been > practicing, > since the return to the classics). > > One can just read the Jia yi jing (based on the Nei jing) and read the > classical > needling depths... 1-3 fen,,, 5-7 fen (a fen is 1/10 of a cun). > Where did the deep TCM insertion levels come from historically? , not from > the Nei jing. > > There are different physiological mechanisms at work, depending on which > type of tissue > we connect with during needling. Also, concurrent with that thought, > different types of Qi > are communicated with, depending on the depth (wei qi, ying qi, yuan qi). > > Tung family style talks about this too... depth of needling of the same > point, > such as Zu san li (ST 36) can change its functions and its focus. > > We have already confirmed that stimulation of acu-points reduces pain in > the > body. > We don't need more research studies questioning if acupuncture works or > not. > They've been doing that for 3 decades now. > > We should being hooking up people to MRIs and seeing what happens when we > do contact needling vs superficial insertion, middle-depth insertion and > deep insertion. > Then we could be getting somewhere. > > K > > -- > > Turtle Island Integrative Health > www.turtleclinic. com > > TCM Review director > CA State Board Prep Courses > www.tcmreview. com > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 14, 2009 Report Share Posted May 14, 2009 This is like eft or spirit needle, Going right to the emotion/ spirit. Bypassing all the rejectio of touch,needles --- On Wed, 5/13/09, Karen Adams <turusachan wrote: Karen Adams <turusachan Re: Apparently well-designed low back pain AP study produces potentially bad results Chinese Medicine Wednesday, May 13, 2009, 11:16 AM John - try doing needling with no needles, just the finger tip, no pressure. Great, I find, for spirit level treatments, not as effective for recalcitrant pain, at least not yet for me. karen Karen R. Adams, Lic Ac, Dipl Ac 25 - 27 Bank Row Greenfield, MA 01301 413-768-8333 Do or do not. There is no try. Yoda, The Empire Strikes Back ____________ _________ _________ __ <johnkokko (AT) gmail (DOT) com> Wednesday, May 13, 2009 10:40:27 AM Re: Apparently well-designed low back pain AP study produces potentially bad results The study is pointing out what Shudo Denmei said 2 weeks ago in SF... that non-insertion needling (contact technique) can elicit Qi just as well or better (with proper technique) than just piercing a needle through the skin and waiting for a fish to bite the line. Of course, it depends on certain points... the areas where there is a lot of adipose tissue requires needle insertion. It would be interesting to look at this on a physiological level and see what happens with fat and the insulation of Qi vs areas of the body where the nerves and fascia are more superficial to the touch. It's great news that the researchers wrote, " superficial acupuncture point stimulation directly stimulates physiological processes that ultimately lead to improved pain and function. " Shudo said that non-insertion needling is the technique for the future. > > > I'm practicing non-insertion needling and find this to be true for some points, but not all of them. When non-insertion stimulation does not change the hara reflexes, then superficial insertion (about 1-2 mm) will usually have the same effect as a typical TCM insertion or better. (as many Japanese schools have been practicing, since the return to the classics). One can just read the Jia yi jing (based on the Nei jing) and read the classical needling depths... 1-3 fen,,, 5-7 fen (a fen is 1/10 of a cun). Where did the deep TCM insertion levels come from historically? , not from the Nei jing. There are different physiological mechanisms at work, depending on which type of tissue we connect with during needling. Also, concurrent with that thought, different types of Qi are communicated with, depending on the depth (wei qi, ying qi, yuan qi). Tung family style talks about this too... depth of needling of the same point, such as Zu san li (ST 36) can change its functions and its focus. We have already confirmed that stimulation of acu-points reduces pain in the body. We don't need more research studies questioning if acupuncture works or not. They've been doing that for 3 decades now. We should being hooking up people to MRIs and seeing what happens when we do contact needling vs superficial insertion, middle-depth insertion and deep insertion. Then we could be getting somewhere. K -- Turtle Island Integrative Health www.turtleclinic. com TCM Review director CA State Board Prep Courses www.tcmreview. com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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