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Apparently well-designed low back pain AP study produces potentially bad results

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This study is interesting because it addresses the usual complaint that

these studies don't allow L.Acs to use individually tailored treatments

according to best practice - one of the groups was indeed allowed to do

so. Nevertheless, it was no better than standardized TCM protocol or

*toothpicks*.

 

So, either all acupuncture is nonspecific, OR perhaps " standard " (i.e.

TCM-based) treatments are really not specific. I certainly noticed

better results after trying out Richard Tan / Master Tung style vs. TCM,

and we don't really know what these folks were using, but as I'm sure

everyone here has seen, results between acupuncturists vary widely, and

referrals to other L.Ac.'s often fail to produce similar results to our

own. But maybe it's all a placebo-spectrum effect (i.e. practitioner -

patient interaction) vs. actual technique. Or, acupuncture is just very,

very hard to do right, and few people are better than mere random

tapping of toothpicks.

 

-Ben Hawes, L.Ac.

 

 

http://www.medpagetoday.com/PrimaryCare/AlternativeMedicine/14148?userid=31145 & i\

mpressionId=1242094115497 & utm_source=mSpoke & utm_medium=email & utm_campaign=DailyH\

eadlines & utm_content=GroupD

<http://www.medpagetoday.com/PrimaryCare/AlternativeMedicine/14148?userid=31145 & \

impressionId=1242094115497 & utm_source=mSpoke & utm_medium=email & utm_campaign=Daily\

Headlines & utm_content=GroupD>

 

 

Trial Fails to Settle Questions About Acupuncture for Low Back Pain

 

By John Gever, Senior Editor, MedPage Today

Published: May 11, 2009

Reviewed by Dori F. Zaleznik, MD </reviewer.cfm?reviewerid=512>;

Associate Clinical Professor of Medicine, Harvard Medical School,

Boston. Earn CME/CE credit

for reading medical news

</posttest.cfm?testpage=14148 & TBID=14148 & topicid=141>

 

 

Copy the code below to embed video on your website or blog:

 

Video Source: Group Health Center for Health Studies

 

WHEELING, W.Va., May 11 -- Acupuncture was more effective than

conventional treatment for relieving lower back pain in a randomized

trial, but performed no better than poking patients gently with toothpicks.

 

Roland-Morris Dysfunction Questionnaire scores improved by a mean of 4.4

to 4.5 points with genuine acupuncture compared with a 2.1 point

improvement with " usual care " (/P/<0.001), typically consisting of drugs

and physical therapy, according to Daniel C. Cherkin, Ph.D., of the

Center for Health Studies in Seattle, and colleagues.

 

Yet patients receiving the simulated acupuncture also showed mean

improvement of 4.4 points, the researchers reported in the May 11 issue

of /Archives of Internal Medicine/.

Action Points

------

 

* Explain to interested patients that controlled trials have

demonstrated benefit from acupuncture for certain types of chronic

pain compared with conventional treatment, but a placebo effect

may account for the finding.

 

 

* Explain that this trial used a novel comparison treatment in which

needles were not inserted but may still have stimulated

acupuncture points.

 

They concluded that the study supports a therapeutic benefit for

acupuncture-point stimulation. But Dr. Cherkin and colleagues said the

findings also " raise questions about acupuncture's purported mechanisms

of action. "

 

The study randomized 638 patients with chronic lower back pain to four

treatments: individualized acupuncture, in which experienced

acupuncturists determined needle placements for each patient according

to their clinical judgment; standardized acupuncture in which eight

needles were placed at points established in traditional Chinese

medicine as appropriate for lower back pain; usual care; and the

simulated acupuncture procedure.

 

The simulation involved placing a small guide tube against the eight

standard acupuncture points and using a toothpick to gently tap and

twist against the skin. Dr. Cherkin and colleagues said the sensation is

similar to an actual needle insertion but does not break the skin. The

procedure was done twice, 10 minutes apart, to simulate needle insertion

followed by withdrawal.

 

Patients in all groups except usual care wore eye masks and their heads

were placed in face cradles, blinding them -- literally -- to the

specific mode of treatment.

 

Treatments lasted seven weeks with the primary evaluation conducted at

week eight. Additional follow-ups were performed at weeks 26 and 52.

 

Mean age of patients was 47, 62% were female, and 68% were white, about

two-thirds reported chronic pain for at least one year, and a similar

fraction reported medication use in the previous week. Less than a

quarter, however, said they had reduced activity or stayed in bed for

significant periods recently because of back pain.

 

On a 10-point scale, the mean expectation that acupuncture would be

helpful was 6.7.

 

Mean Roland-Morris scores at baseline were 10.6 (SD 5.2).

 

Improvements seen at eight weeks were largely maintained at the later

follow-ups. In the case of usual care, an additional one-point

improvement over week eight scores was found at week 52, although the

total improvement relative to baseline remained smaller than was seen

with the three acupuncture-type treatments (/P/=0.001 after adjusting

for age, sex, and baseline score).

 

Patients in all treatment groups, including usual care, also rated their

back pain as significantly less bothersome at weeks eight and 26, but

not at the one-year evaluation.

 

Again, more improvement was seen in the three acupuncture-type groups

than with usual care. And again, the simulated procedure seemed just as

effective as the two treatments in which needles were used.

 

Dr. Cherkin and colleagues said the findings echoed those of other

trials that found equal efficacy with acupuncture and some kind of sham

procedure, with either outperforming usual care. (See Acupuncture Works

for Headache But So Does Fake Needling

<http://www.medpagetoday.com/PainManagement/Migraines/12555>)

 

They said this could reflect some kind of placebo effect. Or, they

speculated, " superficial acupuncture point stimulation directly

stimulates physiological processes that ultimately lead to improved pain

and function. "

 

The latter possibility has been supported in earlier studies, including

one demonstrating that light touch stimulates " mechanoreceptors " that in

turn induce hormonal and emotional reactions related to pain.

 

Regardless of the mechanism, though, Dr. Cherkin and colleagues said it

now appears clear that acupuncture and other similar treatments can be

more effective than conventional therapy for lower back pain, especially

when ordinary treatment has failed.

 

" Furthermore, the reduction in long-term exposure to the potential

adverse effects of medications is an important benefit that may enhance

the safety of conventional medical care, " they wrote.

 

 

--

 

ATTENTION: Protected by Federal Law!

The documents accompanying this transmission contain confidential health care

information that is legally privileged and intended for the below-named

individual or entity only. The recipient of this document is prohibited from

disclosing its contents and is required by law to destroy this information once

authorized fulfillment is complete. If you have received this transmission in

error, please contact sender

immediately.

 

 

 

 

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Guest guest

What it does say, and everyone apparently misses the real point, is that even

bad acupuncture is twice as good as the best western medicine has to offer :)

It says something about allopathic/western medicine.

 

 

 

Dr.Don J. Snow, DAOM, MPH, L.Ac.

 

 

 

Chinese Medicine

bhawes

Tue, 12 May 2009 14:14:03 -0600

Apparently well-designed low back pain AP study produces

potentially bad results

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

This study is interesting because it addresses the usual complaint that

these studies don't allow L.Acs to use individually tailored treatments

according to best practice - one of the groups was indeed allowed to do

so. Nevertheless, it was no better than standardized TCM protocol or

*toothpicks*.

 

So, either all acupuncture is nonspecific, OR perhaps " standard " (i.e.

TCM-based) treatments are really not specific. I certainly noticed

better results after trying out Richard Tan / Master Tung style vs. TCM,

and we don't really know what these folks were using, but as I'm sure

everyone here has seen, results between acupuncturists vary widely, and

referrals to other L.Ac.'s often fail to produce similar results to our

own. But maybe it's all a placebo-spectrum effect (i.e. practitioner -

patient interaction) vs. actual technique. Or, acupuncture is just very,

very hard to do right, and few people are better than mere random

tapping of toothpicks.

 

-Ben Hawes, L.Ac.

 

http://www.medpagetoday.com/PrimaryCare/AlternativeMedicine/14148?userid=31145 & i\

mpressionId=1242094115497 & utm_source=mSpoke & utm_medium=email & utm_campaign=DailyH\

eadlines & utm_content=GroupD

<http://www.medpagetoday.com/PrimaryCare/AlternativeMedicine/14148?userid=31145 & \

impressionId=1242094115497 & utm_source=mSpoke & utm_medium=email & utm_campaign=Daily\

Headlines & utm_content=GroupD>

 

Trial Fails to Settle Questions About Acupuncture for Low Back Pain

 

By John Gever, Senior Editor, MedPage Today

Published: May 11, 2009

Reviewed by Dori F. Zaleznik, MD </reviewer.cfm?reviewerid=512>;

Associate Clinical Professor of Medicine, Harvard Medical School,

Boston. Earn CME/CE credit

for reading medical news

</posttest.cfm?testpage=14148 & TBID=14148 & topicid=141>

 

Copy the code below to embed video on your website or blog:

 

Video Source: Group Health Center for Health Studies

 

WHEELING, W.Va., May 11 -- Acupuncture was more effective than

conventional treatment for relieving lower back pain in a randomized

trial, but performed no better than poking patients gently with toothpicks.

 

Roland-Morris Dysfunction Questionnaire scores improved by a mean of 4.4

to 4.5 points with genuine acupuncture compared with a 2.1 point

improvement with " usual care " (/P/<0.001), typically consisting of drugs

and physical therapy, according to Daniel C. Cherkin, Ph.D., of the

Center for Health Studies in Seattle, and colleagues.

 

Yet patients receiving the simulated acupuncture also showed mean

improvement of 4.4 points, the researchers reported in the May 11 issue

of /Archives of Internal Medicine/.

Action Points

-------------------------

 

* Explain to interested patients that controlled trials have

demonstrated benefit from acupuncture for certain types of chronic

pain compared with conventional treatment, but a placebo effect

may account for the finding.

 

* Explain that this trial used a novel comparison treatment in which

needles were not inserted but may still have stimulated

acupuncture points.

 

They concluded that the study supports a therapeutic benefit for

acupuncture-point stimulation. But Dr. Cherkin and colleagues said the

findings also " raise questions about acupuncture's purported mechanisms

of action. "

 

The study randomized 638 patients with chronic lower back pain to four

treatments: individualized acupuncture, in which experienced

acupuncturists determined needle placements for each patient according

to their clinical judgment; standardized acupuncture in which eight

needles were placed at points established in traditional Chinese

medicine as appropriate for lower back pain; usual care; and the

simulated acupuncture procedure.

 

The simulation involved placing a small guide tube against the eight

standard acupuncture points and using a toothpick to gently tap and

twist against the skin. Dr. Cherkin and colleagues said the sensation is

similar to an actual needle insertion but does not break the skin. The

procedure was done twice, 10 minutes apart, to simulate needle insertion

followed by withdrawal.

 

Patients in all groups except usual care wore eye masks and their heads

were placed in face cradles, blinding them -- literally -- to the

specific mode of treatment.

 

Treatments lasted seven weeks with the primary evaluation conducted at

week eight. Additional follow-ups were performed at weeks 26 and 52.

 

Mean age of patients was 47, 62% were female, and 68% were white, about

two-thirds reported chronic pain for at least one year, and a similar

fraction reported medication use in the previous week. Less than a

quarter, however, said they had reduced activity or stayed in bed for

significant periods recently because of back pain.

 

On a 10-point scale, the mean expectation that acupuncture would be

helpful was 6.7.

 

Mean Roland-Morris scores at baseline were 10.6 (SD 5.2).

 

Improvements seen at eight weeks were largely maintained at the later

follow-ups. In the case of usual care, an additional one-point

improvement over week eight scores was found at week 52, although the

total improvement relative to baseline remained smaller than was seen

with the three acupuncture-type treatments (/P/=0.001 after adjusting

for age, sex, and baseline score).

 

Patients in all treatment groups, including usual care, also rated their

back pain as significantly less bothersome at weeks eight and 26, but

not at the one-year evaluation.

 

Again, more improvement was seen in the three acupuncture-type groups

than with usual care. And again, the simulated procedure seemed just as

effective as the two treatments in which needles were used.

 

Dr. Cherkin and colleagues said the findings echoed those of other

trials that found equal efficacy with acupuncture and some kind of sham

procedure, with either outperforming usual care. (See Acupuncture Works

for Headache But So Does Fake Needling

<http://www.medpagetoday.com/PainManagement/Migraines/12555>)

 

They said this could reflect some kind of placebo effect. Or, they

speculated, " superficial acupuncture point stimulation directly

stimulates physiological processes that ultimately lead to improved pain

and function. "

 

The latter possibility has been supported in earlier studies, including

one demonstrating that light touch stimulates " mechanoreceptors " that in

turn induce hormonal and emotional reactions related to pain.

 

Regardless of the mechanism, though, Dr. Cherkin and colleagues said it

now appears clear that acupuncture and other similar treatments can be

more effective than conventional therapy for lower back pain, especially

when ordinary treatment has failed.

 

" Furthermore, the reduction in long-term exposure to the potential

adverse effects of medications is an important benefit that may enhance

the safety of conventional medical care, " they wrote.

 

--

 

ATTENTION: Protected by Federal Law!

The documents accompanying this transmission contain confidential health care

information that is legally privileged and intended for the below-named

individual or entity only. The recipient of this document is prohibited from

disclosing its contents and is required by law to destroy this information once

authorized fulfillment is complete. If you have received this transmission in

error, please contact sender

immediately.

 

 

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Guest guest

Hi Benjamin.

 

A very important possibility that you miss in your post and that most will not

consider is that there is something seriously wrong with even the best designed

studies. There are fundamental flaws with the current research system.

I have some very defined opinions on what these flaws are, but these will need

to take the form of a paper, and this paper will definitely need collaboration.

It is my opinion that we need to get our heads out of biomedicine's rear-end

aperture and start seriously doubting their stories. Not rejecting or ignoring

their stories but *doubting* them. That means examining them and taking them

apart, piece by piece.

 

Hugo

 

 

________________________________

Hugo Ramiro

http://middlemedicine.wordpress.com

http://www.chinesemedicaltherapies.org

 

 

 

 

 

________________________________

" Benjamin Hawes, L.Ac. " <bhawes

Chinese Medicine

Tuesday, 12 May, 2009 16:14:03

Apparently well-designed low back pain AP study produces

potentially bad results

 

 

 

 

 

This study is interesting because it addresses the usual complaint that

these studies don't allow L.Acs to use individually tailored treatments

according to best practice - one of the groups was indeed allowed to do

so. Nevertheless, it was no better than standardized TCM protocol or

*toothpicks* .

 

So, either all acupuncture is nonspecific, OR perhaps " standard " (i.e.

TCM-based) treatments are really not specific. I certainly noticed

better results after trying out Richard Tan / Master Tung style vs. TCM,

and we don't really know what these folks were using, but as I'm sure

everyone here has seen, results between acupuncturists vary widely, and

referrals to other L.Ac.'s often fail to produce similar results to our

own. But maybe it's all a placebo-spectrum effect (i.e. practitioner -

patient interaction) vs. actual technique. Or, acupuncture is just very,

very hard to do right, and few people are better than mere random

tapping of toothpicks.

 

-Ben Hawes, L.Ac.

 

http://www.medpaget oday.com/ PrimaryCare/ AlternativeMedic ine/14148?

userid=31145 & impressionId= 1242094115497 & utm_source= mSpoke & utm_ medium=email &

utm_campaign= DailyHeadlines & utm_content= GroupD

<http://www.medpaget oday.com/ PrimaryCare/ AlternativeMedic ine/14148?

userid=31145 & impressionId= 1242094115497 & utm_source= mSpoke & utm_ medium=email &

utm_campaign= DailyHeadlines & utm_content= GroupD>

 

Trial Fails to Settle Questions About Acupuncture for Low Back Pain

 

By John Gever, Senior Editor, MedPage Today

Published: May 11, 2009

Reviewed by Dori F. Zaleznik, MD </reviewer.cfm? reviewerid= 512>;

Associate Clinical Professor of Medicine, Harvard Medical School,

Boston. Earn CME/CE credit

for reading medical news

</posttest.cfm? testpage= 14148 & TBID= 14148 & topicid= 141>

 

Copy the code below to embed video on your website or blog:

 

Video Source: Group Health Center for Health Studies

 

WHEELING, W.Va., May 11 -- Acupuncture was more effective than

conventional treatment for relieving lower back pain in a randomized

trial, but performed no better than poking patients gently with toothpicks.

 

Roland-Morris Dysfunction Questionnaire scores improved by a mean of 4.4

to 4.5 points with genuine acupuncture compared with a 2.1 point

improvement with " usual care " (/P/<0.001), typically consisting of drugs

and physical therapy, according to Daniel C. Cherkin, Ph.D., of the

Center for Health Studies in Seattle, and colleagues.

 

Yet patients receiving the simulated acupuncture also showed mean

improvement of 4.4 points, the researchers reported in the May 11 issue

of /Archives of Internal Medicine/.

Action Points

------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- -

 

* Explain to interested patients that controlled trials have

demonstrated benefit from acupuncture for certain types of chronic

pain compared with conventional treatment, but a placebo effect

may account for the finding.

 

* Explain that this trial used a novel comparison treatment in which

needles were not inserted but may still have stimulated

acupuncture points.

 

They concluded that the study supports a therapeutic benefit for

acupuncture- point stimulation. But Dr. Cherkin and colleagues said the

findings also " raise questions about acupuncture' s purported mechanisms

of action. "

 

The study randomized 638 patients with chronic lower back pain to four

treatments: individualized acupuncture, in which experienced

acupuncturists determined needle placements for each patient according

to their clinical judgment; standardized acupuncture in which eight

needles were placed at points established in traditional Chinese

medicine as appropriate for lower back pain; usual care; and the

simulated acupuncture procedure.

 

The simulation involved placing a small guide tube against the eight

standard acupuncture points and using a toothpick to gently tap and

twist against the skin. Dr. Cherkin and colleagues said the sensation is

similar to an actual needle insertion but does not break the skin. The

procedure was done twice, 10 minutes apart, to simulate needle insertion

followed by withdrawal.

 

Patients in all groups except usual care wore eye masks and their heads

were placed in face cradles, blinding them -- literally -- to the

specific mode of treatment.

 

Treatments lasted seven weeks with the primary evaluation conducted at

week eight. Additional follow-ups were performed at weeks 26 and 52.

 

Mean age of patients was 47, 62% were female, and 68% were white, about

two-thirds reported chronic pain for at least one year, and a similar

fraction reported medication use in the previous week. Less than a

quarter, however, said they had reduced activity or stayed in bed for

significant periods recently because of back pain.

 

On a 10-point scale, the mean expectation that acupuncture would be

helpful was 6.7.

 

Mean Roland-Morris scores at baseline were 10.6 (SD 5.2).

 

Improvements seen at eight weeks were largely maintained at the later

follow-ups. In the case of usual care, an additional one-point

improvement over week eight scores was found at week 52, although the

total improvement relative to baseline remained smaller than was seen

with the three acupuncture- type treatments (/P/=0.001 after adjusting

for age, sex, and baseline score).

 

Patients in all treatment groups, including usual care, also rated their

back pain as significantly less bothersome at weeks eight and 26, but

not at the one-year evaluation.

 

Again, more improvement was seen in the three acupuncture- type groups

than with usual care. And again, the simulated procedure seemed just as

effective as the two treatments in which needles were used.

 

Dr. Cherkin and colleagues said the findings echoed those of other

trials that found equal efficacy with acupuncture and some kind of sham

procedure, with either outperforming usual care. (See Acupuncture Works

for Headache But So Does Fake Needling

<http://www.medpaget oday.com/ PainManagement/ Migraines/ 12555>)

 

They said this could reflect some kind of placebo effect. Or, they

speculated, " superficial acupuncture point stimulation directly

stimulates physiological processes that ultimately lead to improved pain

and function. "

 

The latter possibility has been supported in earlier studies, including

one demonstrating that light touch stimulates " mechanoreceptors " that in

turn induce hormonal and emotional reactions related to pain.

 

Regardless of the mechanism, though, Dr. Cherkin and colleagues said it

now appears clear that acupuncture and other similar treatments can be

more effective than conventional therapy for lower back pain, especially

when ordinary treatment has failed.

 

" Furthermore, the reduction in long-term exposure to the potential

adverse effects of medications is an important benefit that may enhance

the safety of conventional medical care, " they wrote.

 

--

 

ATTENTION: Protected by Federal Law!

The documents accompanying this transmission contain confidential health care

information that is legally privileged and intended for the below-named

individual or entity only. The recipient of this document is prohibited from

disclosing its contents and is required by law to destroy this information once

authorized fulfillment is complete. If you have received this transmission in

error, please contact sender

immediately.

 

 

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Share on other sites

Guest guest

The study is pointing out what Shudo Denmei said 2 weeks ago in SF...

that non-insertion needling (contact technique) can elicit Qi just as well

or better

(with proper technique) than just piercing a needle through the skin

and waiting for a fish to bite the line.

 

Of course, it depends on certain points... the areas where there is a lot

of

adipose tissue requires needle insertion. It would be interesting to look

at this

on a physiological level and see what happens with fat and the insulation of

Qi

vs areas of the body where the nerves and fascia are more superficial to the

touch.

 

It's great news that the researchers wrote,

" superficial acupuncture point stimulation directly

stimulates physiological processes that ultimately lead to improved pain

and function. "

 

Shudo said that non-insertion needling is the technique for the future.

 

>

>

>

I'm practicing non-insertion needling and find this to be true for some

points,

but not all of them. When non-insertion stimulation does not change the

hara reflexes,

then superficial insertion (about 1-2 mm) will usually have the same effect

as

a typical TCM insertion or better. (as many Japanese schools have been

practicing,

since the return to the classics).

 

One can just read the Jia yi jing (based on the Nei jing) and read the

classical

needling depths... 1-3 fen,,, 5-7 fen (a fen is 1/10 of a cun).

Where did the deep TCM insertion levels come from historically?, not from

the Nei jing.

 

There are different physiological mechanisms at work, depending on which

type of tissue

we connect with during needling. Also, concurrent with that thought,

different types of Qi

are communicated with, depending on the depth (wei qi, ying qi, yuan qi).

 

Tung family style talks about this too... depth of needling of the same

point,

such as Zu san li (ST 36) can change its functions and its focus.

 

We have already confirmed that stimulation of acu-points reduces pain in the

body.

We don't need more research studies questioning if acupuncture works or not.

They've been doing that for 3 decades now.

 

We should being hooking up people to MRIs and seeing what happens when we

do contact needling vs superficial insertion, middle-depth insertion and

deep insertion.

Then we could be getting somewhere.

 

K

 

 

 

--

 

Turtle Island Integrative Health

 

 

TCM Review director

CA State Board Prep Courses

www.tcmreview.com

 

 

 

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Guest guest

John - try doing needling with no needles, just the finger tip, no pressure.

Great, I find, for spirit level treatments, not as effective for recalcitrant

pain, at least not yet for me.

karen

 

 

 

Karen R. Adams,

Lic Ac, Dipl Ac

25 - 27 Bank Row

Greenfield, MA 01301

413-768-8333

 

 

 

Do or do not.

There is no try.

 

Yoda, The Empire Strikes Back

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

________________________________

<johnkokko

Chinese Medicine

Wednesday, May 13, 2009 10:40:27 AM

Re: Apparently well-designed low back pain AP study produces

potentially bad results

 

 

 

 

 

The study is pointing out what Shudo Denmei said 2 weeks ago in SF...

that non-insertion needling (contact technique) can elicit Qi just as well

or better

(with proper technique) than just piercing a needle through the skin

and waiting for a fish to bite the line.

 

Of course, it depends on certain points... the areas where there is a lot

of

adipose tissue requires needle insertion. It would be interesting to look

at this

on a physiological level and see what happens with fat and the insulation of

Qi

vs areas of the body where the nerves and fascia are more superficial to the

touch.

 

It's great news that the researchers wrote,

" superficial acupuncture point stimulation directly

stimulates physiological processes that ultimately lead to improved pain

and function. "

 

Shudo said that non-insertion needling is the technique for the future.

 

>

>

>

I'm practicing non-insertion needling and find this to be true for some

points,

but not all of them. When non-insertion stimulation does not change the

hara reflexes,

then superficial insertion (about 1-2 mm) will usually have the same effect

as

a typical TCM insertion or better. (as many Japanese schools have been

practicing,

since the return to the classics).

 

One can just read the Jia yi jing (based on the Nei jing) and read the

classical

needling depths... 1-3 fen,,, 5-7 fen (a fen is 1/10 of a cun).

Where did the deep TCM insertion levels come from historically? , not from

the Nei jing.

 

There are different physiological mechanisms at work, depending on which

type of tissue

we connect with during needling. Also, concurrent with that thought,

different types of Qi

are communicated with, depending on the depth (wei qi, ying qi, yuan qi).

 

Tung family style talks about this too... depth of needling of the same

point,

such as Zu san li (ST 36) can change its functions and its focus.

 

We have already confirmed that stimulation of acu-points reduces pain in the

body.

We don't need more research studies questioning if acupuncture works or not.

They've been doing that for 3 decades now.

 

We should being hooking up people to MRIs and seeing what happens when we

do contact needling vs superficial insertion, middle-depth insertion and

deep insertion.

Then we could be getting somewhere.

 

K

 

--

 

Turtle Island Integrative Health

www.turtleclinic. com

 

TCM Review director

CA State Board Prep Courses

www.tcmreview. com

 

 

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Guest guest

I am in my 8th semester of Acupuncture school and have been doing Tui Na Massage

and acupressure for 8 years. I get similar results from both acupresure and

acupuncture, but find it takes less of my time to use needling.

 

I have also noticed my effectiveness with acupressure has increased

significantly as my diagnostic skills have grown.

 

In Light

 

John Flavin

Soon to be L. AC.

Dipl. NCCAOM A.B.T.

 

 

 

Chinese Medicine , Karen Adams

<turusachan wrote:

>

> John - try doing needling with no needles, just the finger tip, no pressure.

Great, I find, for spirit level treatments, not as effective for recalcitrant

pain, at least not yet for me.

> karen

>

>

>

> Karen R. Adams,

> Lic Ac, Dipl Ac

> 25 - 27 Bank Row

> Greenfield, MA 01301

> 413-768-8333

>

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Guest guest

Karen,

 

Yeah. Medical qi gong can do anything, as long as you have that

proficiency.

I don't at this point. I can make changes, but not for everything I want

to,

plus it makes me more tired than using the needles.

The needles focus my Qi and the guide tube can be a very effective tool

as they have developed in Japan since the time of Sugiyama.

 

I notice for spiritual issues, sometimes qi gong, sometimes blood letting.

Sometimes raw herbs, sometimes essential oils (like J. Yuen)

 

Sometimes small doses, sometimes large doses.

How can you tell?

 

K

 

 

On Wed, May 13, 2009 at 8:16 AM, Karen Adams <turusachan wrote:

 

>

>

> John - try doing needling with no needles, just the finger tip, no

> pressure. Great, I find, for spirit level treatments, not as effective for

> recalcitrant pain, at least not yet for me.

> karen

>

> Karen R. Adams,

> Lic Ac, Dipl Ac

> 25 - 27 Bank Row

> Greenfield, MA 01301

> 413-768-8333

>

> Do or do not.

> There is no try.

>

> Yoda, The Empire Strikes Back

>

> ________________________________

> <johnkokko <johnkokko%40gmail.com>>

>

> To:

Chinese Medicine <Chinese Medicine%40yaho\

ogroups.com>

> Wednesday, May 13, 2009 10:40:27 AM

> Re: Apparently well-designed low back pain AP study produces

> potentially bad results

>

>

> The study is pointing out what Shudo Denmei said 2 weeks ago in SF...

> that non-insertion needling (contact technique) can elicit Qi just as well

> or better

> (with proper technique) than just piercing a needle through the skin

> and waiting for a fish to bite the line.

>

> Of course, it depends on certain points... the areas where there is a lot

> of

> adipose tissue requires needle insertion. It would be interesting to look

> at this

> on a physiological level and see what happens with fat and the insulation

> of

> Qi

> vs areas of the body where the nerves and fascia are more superficial to

> the

> touch.

>

> It's great news that the researchers wrote,

> " superficial acupuncture point stimulation directly

> stimulates physiological processes that ultimately lead to improved pain

> and function. "

>

> Shudo said that non-insertion needling is the technique for the future.

>

> >

> >

> >

> I'm practicing non-insertion needling and find this to be true for some

> points,

> but not all of them. When non-insertion stimulation does not change the

> hara reflexes,

> then superficial insertion (about 1-2 mm) will usually have the same effect

> as

> a typical TCM insertion or better. (as many Japanese schools have been

> practicing,

> since the return to the classics).

>

> One can just read the Jia yi jing (based on the Nei jing) and read the

> classical

> needling depths... 1-3 fen,,, 5-7 fen (a fen is 1/10 of a cun).

> Where did the deep TCM insertion levels come from historically? , not from

> the Nei jing.

>

> There are different physiological mechanisms at work, depending on which

> type of tissue

> we connect with during needling. Also, concurrent with that thought,

> different types of Qi

> are communicated with, depending on the depth (wei qi, ying qi, yuan qi).

>

> Tung family style talks about this too... depth of needling of the same

> point,

> such as Zu san li (ST 36) can change its functions and its focus.

>

> We have already confirmed that stimulation of acu-points reduces pain in

> the

> body.

> We don't need more research studies questioning if acupuncture works or

> not.

> They've been doing that for 3 decades now.

>

> We should being hooking up people to MRIs and seeing what happens when we

> do contact needling vs superficial insertion, middle-depth insertion and

> deep insertion.

> Then we could be getting somewhere.

>

> K

>

> --

>

> Turtle Island Integrative Health

> www.turtleclinic. com

>

> TCM Review director

> CA State Board Prep Courses

> www.tcmreview. com

>

>

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Guest guest

This is like eft or spirit needle, Going right to the emotion/ spirit. Bypassing

all the rejectio of touch,needles

 

--- On Wed, 5/13/09, Karen Adams <turusachan wrote:

 

Karen Adams <turusachan

Re: Apparently well-designed low back pain AP study produces

potentially bad results

Chinese Medicine

Wednesday, May 13, 2009, 11:16 AM

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

John - try doing needling with no needles, just the finger tip, no

pressure. Great, I find, for spirit level treatments, not as effective for

recalcitrant pain, at least not yet for me.

 

karen

 

 

 

Karen R. Adams,

 

Lic Ac, Dipl Ac

 

25 - 27 Bank Row

 

Greenfield, MA 01301

 

413-768-8333

 

 

 

Do or do not.

 

There is no try.

 

 

 

Yoda, The Empire Strikes Back

 

 

 

____________ _________ _________ __

 

<johnkokko (AT) gmail (DOT) com>

 

 

 

Wednesday, May 13, 2009 10:40:27 AM

 

Re: Apparently well-designed low back pain AP study produces

potentially bad results

 

 

 

The study is pointing out what Shudo Denmei said 2 weeks ago in SF...

 

that non-insertion needling (contact technique) can elicit Qi just as well

 

or better

 

(with proper technique) than just piercing a needle through the skin

 

and waiting for a fish to bite the line.

 

 

 

Of course, it depends on certain points... the areas where there is a lot

 

of

 

adipose tissue requires needle insertion. It would be interesting to look

 

at this

 

on a physiological level and see what happens with fat and the insulation of

 

Qi

 

vs areas of the body where the nerves and fascia are more superficial to the

 

touch.

 

 

 

It's great news that the researchers wrote,

 

" superficial acupuncture point stimulation directly

 

stimulates physiological processes that ultimately lead to improved pain

 

and function. "

 

 

 

Shudo said that non-insertion needling is the technique for the future.

 

 

 

>

 

>

 

>

 

I'm practicing non-insertion needling and find this to be true for some

 

points,

 

but not all of them. When non-insertion stimulation does not change the

 

hara reflexes,

 

then superficial insertion (about 1-2 mm) will usually have the same effect

 

as

 

a typical TCM insertion or better. (as many Japanese schools have been

 

practicing,

 

since the return to the classics).

 

 

 

One can just read the Jia yi jing (based on the Nei jing) and read the

 

classical

 

needling depths... 1-3 fen,,, 5-7 fen (a fen is 1/10 of a cun).

 

Where did the deep TCM insertion levels come from historically? , not from

 

the Nei jing.

 

 

 

There are different physiological mechanisms at work, depending on which

 

type of tissue

 

we connect with during needling. Also, concurrent with that thought,

 

different types of Qi

 

are communicated with, depending on the depth (wei qi, ying qi, yuan qi).

 

 

 

Tung family style talks about this too... depth of needling of the same

 

point,

 

such as Zu san li (ST 36) can change its functions and its focus.

 

 

 

We have already confirmed that stimulation of acu-points reduces pain in the

 

body.

 

We don't need more research studies questioning if acupuncture works or not.

 

They've been doing that for 3 decades now.

 

 

 

We should being hooking up people to MRIs and seeing what happens when we

 

do contact needling vs superficial insertion, middle-depth insertion and

 

deep insertion.

 

Then we could be getting somewhere.

 

 

 

K

 

 

 

--

 

 

 

Turtle Island Integrative Health

 

www.turtleclinic. com

 

 

 

TCM Review director

 

CA State Board Prep Courses

 

www.tcmreview. com

 

 

 

 

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