Guest guest Posted May 12, 2009 Report Share Posted May 12, 2009 Again, Z'ev, I respectfully disagree because we are talking semantics, and not only in one language, rather in two! I like to start from the language I think in and understand best--English. But first we have to back further to the observation which prompted my linguistic choice. I started by describing replete patients, manifesting with wiry, strong pulses, intercostal tenderness, loud voices and other signs or repletion, who, after treatment, are calm, relaxed and out of pain. My observation is that that state fits the dictionary definition of sedate, coming from the Latin word sedatus which means to compose, moderate, or quiet. Now if you want to define sedation as a lack of movement, then, of course this would not be an appropriate term, but based upon the etymology, I see nothing wrong with using this term in this context. The next step, though, would be interesting. What Chinese character best describe this observation of composing moderating or quieting. Would it be An? or Ping? or another term? And how would one differentiate the actions of those or other " sedating " herbs or treatments. Remember, gentle people--our pursuit is knowledge not winning arguments or ego gratification. I am an ignorant student of this magnificent tapestry. I beg you to not limit yourselves with preconceptions. Rather, please follow the course of my logic before rejecting it. Thank you, --- On Mon, 5/11/09, <zrosenbe wrote: <zrosenbe Re: sedation and chai hu Chinese Medicine Monday, May 11, 2009, 8:48 AM Mike, Chai hu courses liver qi, more specifically gall bladder qi, and in doing so, the liver is calmed, as the liver needs free coursing to be healthy. However, it cannot be said to sedate the liver, as true sedation (which implies lack of movement) would lead to more liver depression, which would lead to increased heat and blood stasis. On May 11, 2009, at 7:40 AM, mike Bowser wrote: > > > > Something that occurred to me as I read over this post. Are we > describing the action at the level of the channel/organ or are we > focused upon the end result? I think our focal point is what really > matters in our dialogue, and both might be accurate. If we drain or > move the qi in a channel it can often times bring about a sedation, > not a drugging, but a mild sense of wellbeing or euphoria as things > feel better to the patient. I see this response a lot, usually after > we move something that also restricts full inspiration. > > Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc > > > > Sun, 10 May 2009 01:28:08 -0700 > sedation and chai hu > > I agree with you, Hugo. But if you read my discussions, I didn't > initiate the term xie to describe the action which resulted from my > treatment, but rather sedate. There is no disagreement. As far as > considering Chai Hu an herb which sedates, I think I would agree, as > it harmonizes Shao Yang, and uninhibits liver Qi stagnation. > > > > www.traditionaljewi shmedicine. net > > www.traditionaljewi shmedicine. blogspot. com > > --- On Fri, 5/8/09, Hugo Ramiro <subincor > wrote: > > Hugo Ramiro <subincor > > > Re: Terminology and Etymology > > > > Friday, May 8, 2009, 10:31 AM > > Hi Yehuda and All: > > --Yehuda- > > sedatus which means to compose, moderate, or quiet. If before I > > needle there is intercostal tenderness, burping and irritability, and > > after I needle the patient is happy and calm, can I not say that they > > are sedate (using the noun form)? > > --- > > The root of sedate as you describe it would then fit comfortably > with actions such harmonization, regulation and balancing. Sedate, > with a root as you describe it, does not fit with drain. > > Chai Hu is an herb which could, according to your definition, be > described as sedating. Huang Qin or Long Dan Cao, on the other hand, > cannot be described in this manner (since they drain), although they > are likely to have a *secondary* effect of " sedation " based on their > dosage, combination and length of use. > > Thoughts? > > Hugo > > ____________ _________ _________ __ > > Hugo Ramiro > > http://middlemedici ne.wordpress. com > > http://www.chinesem edicaltherapies. org > > ____________ _________ _________ __ > > > > > > > Friday, 8 May, 2009 2:48:21 > > Re: Terminology and Etymology > > Again, Daniel, I refer back to the etymological root of sedate, the > Latin term: Remember, as I mentioned earlier in this discussion, > sedation does not mean numbing. That is anesthesia. > > > > www.traditionaljewi shmedicine. net > > www.traditionaljewi shmedicine. blogspot. com > > --- On Thu, 5/7/09, Daniel Schulman <daniel.schulman@ > > wrote: > > Daniel Schulman <daniel.schulman@ > > > Re: Terminology and Etymology > > > > Thursday, May 7, 2009, 9:23 PM > > Obviously this is a debate that will go on forever. To put my two > cents in - on the one hand I do agree in instances that are > particularly egregious that correct terminology is important - and I > do think 'sedation' is one of those instances - because quite > simply, no matter how you look at it, I don't see how we can think > we sedate anything with acupuncture - we do drain things and get > things moving where they are stuck. On the other hand, the dogmatism > of the etymological purists can go too far - I just don't see how > 'torpid intake' is an improvement over 'lack of appetite' or 'poor > appetite' - I never knew the word 'torpid', still don't know it, I > can't relate to it, my patients certainly can't relate to it and > referring to eating as 'intake' sounds bizarre too. > > Regards > > Daniel > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 12, 2009 Report Share Posted May 12, 2009 Yehuda, an1/ 安still, quiet, calm, peaceful, is usually applied when discussing shen2 神/spirit (an shen), but also can describe quieting the kidney (an shen4肾) . Ping2平/level, even )is used medically to calm, or balance. There is still a few problems with your argument. The first is that when using 'sedate' in a medical context, there is the problem that pharmacologically sedatives work in a specific manner very different than Chinese medicinals. This is why I also do not use the term 'diuretics' for disinhibiting damp medicinals, because the action of the Chinese herbs is very different than diuretic pharmaceuticals. It is misleading to use these terms to describe Chinese medicinal actions. I remember many years ago when one of my patients returned a Chinese prepared medicine (xiao yao wan) because it was labeled " Bupleurum Sedative Pills " , because they thought there were sedatives in the pills and didn't want to take them. Secondly, there is still no way to tie the English term 'sedate' to xie/drain, reduce. If you could find that definition in any Chinese/English dictionary, then I'll reconsider. On May 11, 2009, at 7:54 PM, yehuda frischman wrote: > > > Again, Z'ev, I respectfully disagree because we are talking > semantics, and not only in one language, rather in two! I like to > start from the language I think in and understand best--English. > But first we have to back further to the observation which prompted > my linguistic choice. > > I started by describing replete patients, manifesting with wiry, > strong pulses, intercostal tenderness, loud voices and other signs > or repletion, who, after treatment, are calm, relaxed and out of > pain. > > My observation is that that state fits the dictionary definition of > sedate, coming from the Latin word sedatus which means to compose, > moderate, or quiet. > > Now if you want to define sedation as a lack of movement, then, of > course this would not be an appropriate term, but based upon the > etymology, I see nothing wrong with using this term in this context. > > The next step, though, would be interesting. What Chinese character > best describe this observation of composing moderating or quieting. > Would it be An? or Ping? or another term? And how would one > differentiate the actions of those or other " sedating " herbs or > treatments. > > Remember, gentle people--our pursuit is knowledge not winning > arguments or ego gratification. I am an ignorant student of this > magnificent tapestry. I beg you to not limit yourselves with > preconceptions. Rather, please follow the course of my logic > before rejecting it. > > Thank you, > > > > > > > > --- On Mon, 5/11/09, <zrosenbe wrote: > > <zrosenbe > Re: sedation and chai hu > Chinese Medicine > Monday, May 11, 2009, 8:48 AM > > Mike, > Chai hu courses liver qi, more specifically gall bladder qi, and > in doing so, the liver is calmed, as the liver needs free coursing to > be healthy. However, it cannot be said to sedate the liver, as true > sedation (which implies lack of movement) would lead to more liver > depression, which would lead to increased heat and blood stasis. > > > On May 11, 2009, at 7:40 AM, mike Bowser wrote: > > > > > > > > > Something that occurred to me as I read over this post. Are we > > describing the action at the level of the channel/organ or are we > > focused upon the end result? I think our focal point is what really > > matters in our dialogue, and both might be accurate. If we drain or > > move the qi in a channel it can often times bring about a sedation, > > not a drugging, but a mild sense of wellbeing or euphoria as things > > feel better to the patient. I see this response a lot, usually after > > we move something that also restricts full inspiration. > > > > Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc > > > > > > > > Sun, 10 May 2009 01:28:08 -0700 > > sedation and chai hu > > > > I agree with you, Hugo. But if you read my discussions, I didn't > > initiate the term xie to describe the action which resulted from my > > treatment, but rather sedate. There is no disagreement. As far as > > considering Chai Hu an herb which sedates, I think I would agree, as > > it harmonizes Shao Yang, and uninhibits liver Qi stagnation. > > > > > > > > www.traditionaljewi shmedicine. net > > > > www.traditionaljewi shmedicine. blogspot. com > > > > --- On Fri, 5/8/09, Hugo Ramiro <subincor > wrote: > > > > Hugo Ramiro <subincor > > > > > Re: Terminology and Etymology > > > > > > > > Friday, May 8, 2009, 10:31 AM > > > > Hi Yehuda and All: > > > > --Yehuda- > > > > sedatus which means to compose, moderate, or quiet. If before I > > > > needle there is intercostal tenderness, burping and irritability, > and > > > > after I needle the patient is happy and calm, can I not say that > they > > > > are sedate (using the noun form)? > > > > --- > > > > The root of sedate as you describe it would then fit comfortably > > with actions such harmonization, regulation and balancing. Sedate, > > with a root as you describe it, does not fit with drain. > > > > Chai Hu is an herb which could, according to your definition, be > > described as sedating. Huang Qin or Long Dan Cao, on the other hand, > > cannot be described in this manner (since they drain), although they > > are likely to have a *secondary* effect of " sedation " based on their > > dosage, combination and length of use. > > > > Thoughts? > > > > Hugo > > > > ____________ _________ _________ __ > > > > Hugo Ramiro > > > > http://middlemedici ne.wordpress. com > > > > http://www.chinesem edicaltherapies. org > > > > ____________ _________ _________ __ > > > > > > > > > > > > > Friday, 8 May, 2009 2:48:21 > > > > Re: Terminology and Etymology > > > > Again, Daniel, I refer back to the etymological root of sedate, the > > Latin term: Remember, as I mentioned earlier in this discussion, > > sedation does not mean numbing. That is anesthesia. > > > > > > > > www.traditionaljewi shmedicine. net > > > > www.traditionaljewi shmedicine. blogspot. com > > > > --- On Thu, 5/7/09, Daniel Schulman <daniel.schulman@ > > > wrote: > > > > Daniel Schulman <daniel.schulman@ > > > > > Re: Terminology and Etymology > > > > > > > > Thursday, May 7, 2009, 9:23 PM > > > > Obviously this is a debate that will go on forever. To put my two > > cents in - on the one hand I do agree in instances that are > > particularly egregious that correct terminology is important - and I > > do think 'sedation' is one of those instances - because quite > > simply, no matter how you look at it, I don't see how we can think > > we sedate anything with acupuncture - we do drain things and get > > things moving where they are stuck. On the other hand, the dogmatism > > of the etymological purists can go too far - I just don't see how > > 'torpid intake' is an improvement over 'lack of appetite' or 'poor > > appetite' - I never knew the word 'torpid', still don't know it, I > > can't relate to it, my patients certainly can't relate to it and > > referring to eating as 'intake' sounds bizarre too. > > > > Regards > > > > Daniel > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 12, 2009 Report Share Posted May 12, 2009 OK we're getting closer. Let me address each of your points: an1/ 安still, quiet, calm, peaceful, is usually applied when discussing shen2 神/spirit (an shen), but also can describe quieting the kidney (an shen4肾) .   Not only that, but what about An Tai (Quieting the Fetus) or An Zhong (Calming the middle) We now have 4 instances, even without thinking or researching where An describes a calming of what was formerly irritable. Not at all unlike how I describe the condition. Let's go on...   Ping2平/level, even )is used medically to calm, or balance.  Again, first of all, what does that medically mean? For example many formulas with Xie in them have herbs which promote a downward direction of fluids, That makes sense and is pretty clear, but what about this? What is the unique and common action of Ping Wei, Ping Gan, or Ping Chuan?  Again can do differentiate the actions of these two terms, other than poetry and style?  There is still a few problems with your argument. The first is that when using 'sedate' in a medical context, there is the problem that pharmacologically sedatives work in a specific manner very different than Chinese medicinals. This is why I also do not use the term 'diuretics' for disinhibiting damp medicinals, because the action of the Chinese herbs is very different than diuretic pharmaceuticals. It is misleading to use these terms to describe Chinese medicinal actions. I remember many years ago when one of my patients returned a Chinese prepared medicine (xiao yao wan) because it was labeled " Bupleurum Sedative Pills " , because they thought there were sedatives in the pills and didn't want to take them. Now that is is valid and serious argument that I can buy--We actually have to consider not just the meaning of the characters, and the term which most accurately approximates that character in English, according to its etymological root, but we also need to consider popular connotations as well. I'll buy that, and certainly so when it comes to how a medicine is perceived and understood by the public. However, I still contend that care needs to be used in describing most accurately and with more specificity what a given action is. Again the old argument--It is easy to say what something is not, but it's very difficult to say what something is. We mustn't throw out the baby with the bath water, but we do need to consider thoughtfully and prudently.  Finally...  Secondly, there is still no way to tie the English term 'sedate' to xie/drain, reduce. If you could find that definition in any Chinese/English dictionary, then I'll reconsider.  Z'ev, aren't you reading my posts? This will be the 4th time that I am saying that I never considered sedate to be synonymous or even proximating Xie.  BTW, I also don't think that it is correct to equate drain and reduce, in all cases. Reduction implies a lessening or diminishing and comes from the Middle English and Latin words reducen and reducere which mean to lead back, and though draining is reducing, reducing is not necessarily draining.   --- On Mon, 5/11/09, <zrosenbe wrote: <zrosenbe Re: What is sedation? Chinese Medicine Monday, May 11, 2009, 8:25 PM Yehuda, On May 11, 2009, at 7:54 PM, yehuda frischman wrote: > > > Again, Z'ev, I respectfully disagree because we are talking > semantics, and not only in one language, rather in two! I like to > start from the language I think in and understand best--English. > But first we have to back further to the observation which prompted > my linguistic choice. > > I started by describing replete patients, manifesting with wiry, > strong pulses, intercostal tenderness, loud voices and other signs > or repletion, who, after treatment, are calm, relaxed and out of > pain. > > My observation is that that state fits the dictionary definition of > sedate, coming from the Latin word sedatus which means to compose, > moderate, or quiet. > > Now if you want to define sedation as a lack of movement, then, of > course this would not be an appropriate term, but based upon the > etymology, I see nothing wrong with using this term in this context. > > The next step, though, would be interesting. What Chinese character > best describe this observation of composing moderating or quieting. > Would it be An? or Ping? or another term? And how would one > differentiate the actions of those or other " sedating " herbs or > treatments. > > Remember, gentle people--our pursuit is knowledge not winning > arguments or ego gratification. I am an ignorant student of this > magnificent tapestry. I beg you to not limit yourselves with > preconceptions. Rather, please follow the course of my logic > before rejecting it. > > Thank you, > > > www.traditionaljewi shmedicine. net > www.traditionaljewi shmedicine. blogspot. com > > > > --- On Mon, 5/11/09, <zrosenbe (AT) san (DOT) rr.com> wrote: > > <zrosenbe (AT) san (DOT) rr.com> > Re: sedation and chai hu > > Monday, May 11, 2009, 8:48 AM > > Mike, > Chai hu courses liver qi, more specifically gall bladder qi, and > in doing so, the liver is calmed, as the liver needs free coursing to > be healthy. However, it cannot be said to sedate the liver, as true > sedation (which implies lack of movement) would lead to more liver > depression, which would lead to increased heat and blood stasis. > > > On May 11, 2009, at 7:40 AM, mike Bowser wrote: > > > > > > > > > Something that occurred to me as I read over this post. Are we > > describing the action at the level of the channel/organ or are we > > focused upon the end result? I think our focal point is what really > > matters in our dialogue, and both might be accurate. If we drain or > > move the qi in a channel it can often times bring about a sedation, > > not a drugging, but a mild sense of wellbeing or euphoria as things > > feel better to the patient. I see this response a lot, usually after > > we move something that also restricts full inspiration. > > > > Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc > > > > > > > > Sun, 10 May 2009 01:28:08 -0700 > > sedation and chai hu > > > > I agree with you, Hugo. But if you read my discussions, I didn't > > initiate the term xie to describe the action which resulted from my > > treatment, but rather sedate. There is no disagreement. As far as > > considering Chai Hu an herb which sedates, I think I would agree, as > > it harmonizes Shao Yang, and uninhibits liver Qi stagnation. > > > > > > > > www.traditionaljewi shmedicine. net > > > > www.traditionaljewi shmedicine. blogspot. com > > > > --- On Fri, 5/8/09, Hugo Ramiro <subincor > wrote: > > > > Hugo Ramiro <subincor > > > > > Re: Terminology and Etymology > > > > > > > > Friday, May 8, 2009, 10:31 AM > > > > Hi Yehuda and All: > > > > --Yehuda- > > > > sedatus which means to compose, moderate, or quiet. If before I > > > > needle there is intercostal tenderness, burping and irritability, > and > > > > after I needle the patient is happy and calm, can I not say that > they > > > > are sedate (using the noun form)? > > > > --- > > > > The root of sedate as you describe it would then fit comfortably > > with actions such harmonization, regulation and balancing. Sedate, > > with a root as you describe it, does not fit with drain. > > > > Chai Hu is an herb which could, according to your definition, be > > described as sedating. Huang Qin or Long Dan Cao, on the other hand, > > cannot be described in this manner (since they drain), although they > > are likely to have a *secondary* effect of " sedation " based on their > > dosage, combination and length of use. > > > > Thoughts? > > > > Hugo > > > > ____________ _________ _________ __ > > > > Hugo Ramiro > > > > http://middlemedici ne.wordpress. com > > > > http://www.chinesem edicaltherapies. org > > > > ____________ _________ _________ __ > > > > > > > > > > > > > Friday, 8 May, 2009 2:48:21 > > > > Re: Terminology and Etymology > > > > Again, Daniel, I refer back to the etymological root of sedate, the > > Latin term: Remember, as I mentioned earlier in this discussion, > > sedation does not mean numbing. That is anesthesia. > > > > > > > > www.traditionaljewi shmedicine. net > > > > www.traditionaljewi shmedicine. blogspot. com > > > > --- On Thu, 5/7/09, Daniel Schulman <daniel.schulman@ > > > wrote: > > > > Daniel Schulman <daniel.schulman@ > > > > > Re: Terminology and Etymology > > > > > > > > Thursday, May 7, 2009, 9:23 PM > > > > Obviously this is a debate that will go on forever. To put my two > > cents in - on the one hand I do agree in instances that are > > particularly egregious that correct terminology is important - and I > > do think 'sedation' is one of those instances - because quite > > simply, no matter how you look at it, I don't see how we can think > > we sedate anything with acupuncture - we do drain things and get > > things moving where they are stuck. On the other hand, the dogmatism > > of the etymological purists can go too far - I just don't see how > > 'torpid intake' is an improvement over 'lack of appetite' or 'poor > > appetite' - I never knew the word 'torpid', still don't know it, I > > can't relate to it, my patients certainly can't relate to it and > > referring to eating as 'intake' sounds bizarre too. > > > > Regards > > > > Daniel > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 12, 2009 Report Share Posted May 12, 2009 Yehuda, This is the post I was responding to: " I don't think that it's a question of points being mechanical. On the contrary, I think that it's important to always remember that points are not nearly as important as channels. When we address a given imbalance, I think that the most important thing we need to do is look at the channels most affected, and most affecting, sedate one and tonify the other. Also to palpate, look and feel for tenderness, spasm, skin crease, lack of symmetry and weakness. In my patients case, I sedated liver and tonified spleen and Dai, among other things " > Clearly here you are speaking about acupuncture and channels, not > the liver viscus. This is what I was originally responding to you > about. On May 11, 2009, at 9:05 PM, yehuda frischman wrote: > Z'ev, aren't you reading my posts? This will be the 4th time that I > am saying that I never considered sedate to be synonymous or even > proximating Xie. BTW, I also don't think that it is correct to > equate drain and reduce, in all cases. Reduction implies a > lessening or diminishing and comes from the Middle English and Latin > words reducen and reducere which mean to lead back, and though > draining is reducing, reducing is not necessarily draining. Chair, Department of Herbal Medicine Pacific College of Oriental Medicine San Diego, Ca. 92122 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You are posting as a guest. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.