Guest guest Posted May 11, 2009 Report Share Posted May 11, 2009 Something that occurred to me as I read over this post. Are we describing the action at the level of the channel/organ or are we focused upon the end result? I think our focal point is what really matters in our dialogue, and both might be accurate. If we drain or move the qi in a channel it can often times bring about a sedation, not a drugging, but a mild sense of wellbeing or euphoria as things feel better to the patient. I see this response a lot, usually after we move something that also restricts full inspiration. Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc Chinese Medicine Sun, 10 May 2009 01:28:08 -0700 sedation and chai hu I agree with you, Hugo. But if you read my discussions, I didn't initiate the term xie to describe the action which resulted from my treatment, but rather sedate. There is no disagreement. As far as considering Chai Hu an herb which sedates, I think I would agree, as it harmonizes Shao Yang, and uninhibits liver Qi stagnation. --- On Fri, 5/8/09, Hugo Ramiro <subincor wrote: Hugo Ramiro <subincor Re: Terminology and Etymology Chinese Medicine Friday, May 8, 2009, 10:31 AM Hi Yehuda and All: --Yehuda- sedatus which means to compose, moderate, or quiet. If before I needle there is intercostal tenderness, burping and irritability, and after I needle the patient is happy and calm, can I not say that they are sedate (using the noun form)? --- The root of sedate as you describe it would then fit comfortably with actions such harmonization, regulation and balancing. Sedate, with a root as you describe it, does not fit with drain. Chai Hu is an herb which could, according to your definition, be described as sedating. Huang Qin or Long Dan Cao, on the other hand, cannot be described in this manner (since they drain), although they are likely to have a *secondary* effect of " sedation " based on their dosage, combination and length of use. Thoughts? Hugo ____________ _________ _________ __ Hugo Ramiro http://middlemedici ne.wordpress. com http://www.chinesem edicaltherapies. org ____________ _________ _________ __ > Friday, 8 May, 2009 2:48:21 Re: Terminology and Etymology Again, Daniel, I refer back to the etymological root of sedate, the Latin term: Remember, as I mentioned earlier in this discussion, sedation does not mean numbing. That is anesthesia. www.traditionaljewi shmedicine. net www.traditionaljewi shmedicine. blogspot. com --- On Thu, 5/7/09, Daniel Schulman <daniel.schulman@ > wrote: Daniel Schulman <daniel.schulman@ > Re: Terminology and Etymology Thursday, May 7, 2009, 9:23 PM Obviously this is a debate that will go on forever. To put my two cents in - on the one hand I do agree in instances that are particularly egregious that correct terminology is important - and I do think 'sedation' is one of those instances - because quite simply, no matter how you look at it, I don't see how we can think we sedate anything with acupuncture - we do drain things and get things moving where they are stuck. On the other hand, the dogmatism of the etymological purists can go too far - I just don't see how 'torpid intake' is an improvement over 'lack of appetite' or 'poor appetite' - I never knew the word 'torpid', still don't know it, I can't relate to it, my patients certainly can't relate to it and referring to eating as 'intake' sounds bizarre too. Regards Daniel Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 11, 2009 Report Share Posted May 11, 2009 Mike, Chai hu courses liver qi, more specifically gall bladder qi, and in doing so, the liver is calmed, as the liver needs free coursing to be healthy. However, it cannot be said to sedate the liver, as true sedation (which implies lack of movement) would lead to more liver depression, which would lead to increased heat and blood stasis. On May 11, 2009, at 7:40 AM, mike Bowser wrote: > > > > Something that occurred to me as I read over this post. Are we > describing the action at the level of the channel/organ or are we > focused upon the end result? I think our focal point is what really > matters in our dialogue, and both might be accurate. If we drain or > move the qi in a channel it can often times bring about a sedation, > not a drugging, but a mild sense of wellbeing or euphoria as things > feel better to the patient. I see this response a lot, usually after > we move something that also restricts full inspiration. > > Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc > > Chinese Medicine > > Sun, 10 May 2009 01:28:08 -0700 > sedation and chai hu > > I agree with you, Hugo. But if you read my discussions, I didn't > initiate the term xie to describe the action which resulted from my > treatment, but rather sedate. There is no disagreement. As far as > considering Chai Hu an herb which sedates, I think I would agree, as > it harmonizes Shao Yang, and uninhibits liver Qi stagnation. > > > > > > > > --- On Fri, 5/8/09, Hugo Ramiro <subincor wrote: > > Hugo Ramiro <subincor > > Re: Terminology and Etymology > > Chinese Medicine > > Friday, May 8, 2009, 10:31 AM > > Hi Yehuda and All: > > --Yehuda- > > sedatus which means to compose, moderate, or quiet. If before I > > needle there is intercostal tenderness, burping and irritability, and > > after I needle the patient is happy and calm, can I not say that they > > are sedate (using the noun form)? > > --- > > The root of sedate as you describe it would then fit comfortably > with actions such harmonization, regulation and balancing. Sedate, > with a root as you describe it, does not fit with drain. > > Chai Hu is an herb which could, according to your definition, be > described as sedating. Huang Qin or Long Dan Cao, on the other hand, > cannot be described in this manner (since they drain), although they > are likely to have a *secondary* effect of " sedation " based on their > dosage, combination and length of use. > > Thoughts? > > Hugo > > ____________ _________ _________ __ > > Hugo Ramiro > > http://middlemedici ne.wordpress. com > > http://www.chinesem edicaltherapies. org > > ____________ _________ _________ __ > > > > > > > Friday, 8 May, 2009 2:48:21 > > Re: Terminology and Etymology > > Again, Daniel, I refer back to the etymological root of sedate, the > Latin term: Remember, as I mentioned earlier in this discussion, > sedation does not mean numbing. That is anesthesia. > > > > www.traditionaljewi shmedicine. net > > www.traditionaljewi shmedicine. blogspot. com > > --- On Thu, 5/7/09, Daniel Schulman <daniel.schulman@ > > wrote: > > Daniel Schulman <daniel.schulman@ > > > Re: Terminology and Etymology > > > > Thursday, May 7, 2009, 9:23 PM > > Obviously this is a debate that will go on forever. To put my two > cents in - on the one hand I do agree in instances that are > particularly egregious that correct terminology is important - and I > do think 'sedation' is one of those instances - because quite > simply, no matter how you look at it, I don't see how we can think > we sedate anything with acupuncture - we do drain things and get > things moving where they are stuck. On the other hand, the dogmatism > of the etymological purists can go too far - I just don't see how > 'torpid intake' is an improvement over 'lack of appetite' or 'poor > appetite' - I never knew the word 'torpid', still don't know it, I > can't relate to it, my patients certainly can't relate to it and > referring to eating as 'intake' sounds bizarre too. > > Regards > > Daniel > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 12, 2009 Report Share Posted May 12, 2009 Zev, The problem we have here is that words can have many meanings and as such they also reflect specifics within a certain context. You are mentioning sedation as an end point, whereas the patient might be focused upon the feeling during the process. That is what I had eluded to previously. I also think that we need to rethink the separation of the paradigms of acupuncture from the Chinese herbal traditions, when it comes down to terminology. Do we actually sedate, other then bleeding techniques, in acupuncture or are we just changing the flow in the channels? It is apparent that we can argue this from many points and still come to no agreement. I do not think the ancient Chinese were so consumed by this. I think it is important to remember that pictographs tell a story, a concept and not just a term. That is western idea. I am not sure that these attempts to apply reduction to a single term is accurate, appropriate or clinically more effective. Our translators do not use nor agree on every word, nor do the published clinicians. Most importantly, we need to communicate with the public about what we do in terms they can understand. Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc Chinese Medicine zrosenbe Mon, 11 May 2009 08:48:33 -0700 Re: sedation and chai hu Mike, Chai hu courses liver qi, more specifically gall bladder qi, and in doing so, the liver is calmed, as the liver needs free coursing to be healthy. However, it cannot be said to sedate the liver, as true sedation (which implies lack of movement) would lead to more liver depression, which would lead to increased heat and blood stasis. On May 11, 2009, at 7:40 AM, mike Bowser wrote: > > > > Something that occurred to me as I read over this post. Are we > describing the action at the level of the channel/organ or are we > focused upon the end result? I think our focal point is what really > matters in our dialogue, and both might be accurate. If we drain or > move the qi in a channel it can often times bring about a sedation, > not a drugging, but a mild sense of wellbeing or euphoria as things > feel better to the patient. I see this response a lot, usually after > we move something that also restricts full inspiration. > > Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc > > Chinese Medicine > > Sun, 10 May 2009 01:28:08 -0700 > sedation and chai hu > > I agree with you, Hugo. But if you read my discussions, I didn't > initiate the term xie to describe the action which resulted from my > treatment, but rather sedate. There is no disagreement. As far as > considering Chai Hu an herb which sedates, I think I would agree, as > it harmonizes Shao Yang, and uninhibits liver Qi stagnation. > > > > > > > > --- On Fri, 5/8/09, Hugo Ramiro <subincor wrote: > > Hugo Ramiro <subincor > > Re: Terminology and Etymology > > Chinese Medicine > > Friday, May 8, 2009, 10:31 AM > > Hi Yehuda and All: > > --Yehuda- > > sedatus which means to compose, moderate, or quiet. If before I > > needle there is intercostal tenderness, burping and irritability, and > > after I needle the patient is happy and calm, can I not say that they > > are sedate (using the noun form)? > > --- > > The root of sedate as you describe it would then fit comfortably > with actions such harmonization, regulation and balancing. Sedate, > with a root as you describe it, does not fit with drain. > > Chai Hu is an herb which could, according to your definition, be > described as sedating. Huang Qin or Long Dan Cao, on the other hand, > cannot be described in this manner (since they drain), although they > are likely to have a *secondary* effect of " sedation " based on their > dosage, combination and length of use. > > Thoughts? > > Hugo > > ____________ _________ _________ __ > > Hugo Ramiro > > http://middlemedici ne.wordpress. com > > http://www.chinesem edicaltherapies. org > > ____________ _________ _________ __ > > > > > > > Friday, 8 May, 2009 2:48:21 > > Re: Terminology and Etymology > > Again, Daniel, I refer back to the etymological root of sedate, the > Latin term: Remember, as I mentioned earlier in this discussion, > sedation does not mean numbing. That is anesthesia. > > > > www.traditionaljewi shmedicine. net > > www.traditionaljewi shmedicine. blogspot. com > > --- On Thu, 5/7/09, Daniel Schulman <daniel.schulman@ > > wrote: > > Daniel Schulman <daniel.schulman@ > > > Re: Terminology and Etymology > > > > Thursday, May 7, 2009, 9:23 PM > > Obviously this is a debate that will go on forever. To put my two > cents in - on the one hand I do agree in instances that are > particularly egregious that correct terminology is important - and I > do think 'sedation' is one of those instances - because quite > simply, no matter how you look at it, I don't see how we can think > we sedate anything with acupuncture - we do drain things and get > things moving where they are stuck. On the other hand, the dogmatism > of the etymological purists can go too far - I just don't see how > 'torpid intake' is an improvement over 'lack of appetite' or 'poor > appetite' - I never knew the word 'torpid', still don't know it, I > can't relate to it, my patients certainly can't relate to it and > referring to eating as 'intake' sounds bizarre too. > > Regards > > Daniel > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 12, 2009 Report Share Posted May 12, 2009 Mike, You raise some important questions. But we must begin with the fact that medical Chinese is a technical language, even though it is more metaphorical or dynamic than biomedicine. The ancient Chinese weren't so 'consumed by this' because there wasn't the issue of multi- cultural transmissions, the confusion of mixed medical paradigms that makes it difficult to tell where a technique or idea comes from sometimes. Again, as I've said many times, and Eric Brand has said many times, the issue is not reducing a character to one term equivalent, but accurate term choice. Sedation is not an accurate term choice for xie. Drain, reduce, etc. are possible choices. I see too many practitioners and students do not understand the terms they use, and cannot define the fundamental conceptual tools of our medicine, such as yuan qi, wei qi, jing/essence, supplement, nourish, etc. This leads to much confusion, loss of clinical detail, and, yes, clinical efficacy. On May 11, 2009, at 4:54 PM, mike Bowser wrote: > > Zev, > The problem we have here is that words can have many meanings and as > such they also reflect specifics within a certain context. You are > mentioning sedation as an end point, whereas the patient might be > focused upon the feeling during the process. That is what I had > eluded to previously. > I also think that we need to rethink the separation of the paradigms > of acupuncture from the Chinese herbal traditions, when it comes > down to terminology. Do we actually sedate, other then bleeding > techniques, in acupuncture or are we just changing the flow in the > channels? > It is apparent that we can argue this from many points and still > come to no agreement. I do not think the ancient Chinese were so > consumed by this. > I think it is important to remember that pictographs tell a story, a > concept and not just a term. That is western idea. I am not sure > that these attempts to apply reduction to a single term is accurate, > appropriate or clinically more effective. > Our translators do not use nor agree on every word, nor do the > published clinicians. Most importantly, we need to communicate with > the public about what we do in terms they can understand. > Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc > > Chinese Medicine > zrosenbe > Mon, 11 May 2009 08:48:33 -0700 > Re: sedation and chai hu > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Mike, > > Chai hu courses liver qi, more specifically gall bladder qi, and > > in doing so, the liver is calmed, as the liver needs free coursing to > > be healthy. However, it cannot be said to sedate the liver, as true > > sedation (which implies lack of movement) would lead to more liver > > depression, which would lead to increased heat and blood stasis. > > > > > > On May 11, 2009, at 7:40 AM, mike Bowser wrote: > > > >> > >> > >> > >> Something that occurred to me as I read over this post. Are we > >> describing the action at the level of the channel/organ or are we > >> focused upon the end result? I think our focal point is what really > >> matters in our dialogue, and both might be accurate. If we drain or > >> move the qi in a channel it can often times bring about a sedation, > >> not a drugging, but a mild sense of wellbeing or euphoria as things > >> feel better to the patient. I see this response a lot, usually after > >> we move something that also restricts full inspiration. > >> > >> Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc > >> > >> Chinese Medicine > >> > >> Sun, 10 May 2009 01:28:08 -0700 > >> sedation and chai hu > >> > >> I agree with you, Hugo. But if you read my discussions, I didn't > >> initiate the term xie to describe the action which resulted from my > >> treatment, but rather sedate. There is no disagreement. As far as > >> considering Chai Hu an herb which sedates, I think I would agree, as > >> it harmonizes Shao Yang, and uninhibits liver Qi stagnation. > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> --- On Fri, 5/8/09, Hugo Ramiro <subincor wrote: > >> > >> Hugo Ramiro <subincor > >> > >> Re: Terminology and Etymology > >> > >> Chinese Medicine > >> > >> Friday, May 8, 2009, 10:31 AM > >> > >> Hi Yehuda and All: > >> > >> --Yehuda- > >> > >> sedatus which means to compose, moderate, or quiet. If before I > >> > >> needle there is intercostal tenderness, burping and irritability, and > >> > >> after I needle the patient is happy and calm, can I not say that they > >> > >> are sedate (using the noun form)? > >> > >> --- > >> > >> The root of sedate as you describe it would then fit comfortably > >> with actions such harmonization, regulation and balancing. Sedate, > >> with a root as you describe it, does not fit with drain. > >> > >> Chai Hu is an herb which could, according to your definition, be > >> described as sedating. Huang Qin or Long Dan Cao, on the other hand, > >> cannot be described in this manner (since they drain), although they > >> are likely to have a *secondary* effect of " sedation " based on their > >> dosage, combination and length of use. > >> > >> Thoughts? > >> > >> Hugo > >> > >> ____________ _________ _________ __ > >> > >> Hugo Ramiro > >> > >> http://middlemedici ne.wordpress. com > >> > >> http://www.chinesem edicaltherapies. org > >> > >> ____________ _________ _________ __ > >> > >> > > >> > >> > >> > >> Friday, 8 May, 2009 2:48:21 > >> > >> Re: Terminology and Etymology > >> > >> Again, Daniel, I refer back to the etymological root of sedate, the > >> Latin term: Remember, as I mentioned earlier in this discussion, > >> sedation does not mean numbing. That is anesthesia. > >> > >> > >> > >> www.traditionaljewi shmedicine. net > >> > >> www.traditionaljewi shmedicine. blogspot. com > >> > >> --- On Thu, 5/7/09, Daniel Schulman <daniel.schulman@ > > >> wrote: > >> > >> Daniel Schulman <daniel.schulman@ > > >> > >> Re: Terminology and Etymology > >> > >> > >> > >> Thursday, May 7, 2009, 9:23 PM > >> > >> Obviously this is a debate that will go on forever. To put my two > >> cents in - on the one hand I do agree in instances that are > >> particularly egregious that correct terminology is important - and I > >> do think 'sedation' is one of those instances - because quite > >> simply, no matter how you look at it, I don't see how we can think > >> we sedate anything with acupuncture - we do drain things and get > >> things moving where they are stuck. On the other hand, the dogmatism > >> of the etymological purists can go too far - I just don't see how > >> 'torpid intake' is an improvement over 'lack of appetite' or 'poor > >> appetite' - I never knew the word 'torpid', still don't know it, I > >> can't relate to it, my patients certainly can't relate to it and > >> referring to eating as 'intake' sounds bizarre too. > >> > >> Regards > >> > >> Daniel > >> > >> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 12, 2009 Report Share Posted May 12, 2009 Zev, I understand your concerns about this issue and thank you for sharing other possibilities of wording. I would, however, challenge us to remember that we do not share the same contextual parameters as the Chinese, who do not share the same ones with the ancient Chinese. They are closer but the modern pictographs do not hold the same meanings nor do we often understand what things were like back then. This is not meant to be an excuse for sloppy work but hopefully shed some light on the actual difficulty related to this endeavor. I would also like to see and hear more inclusion of the anthropological studies of ancient Asian civilizations. Maybe we can get more OM programs to start doing this. Don't you think that would be important to getting this groundwork started early? Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc PS, I have read some very interesting articles by Vivienne Lo and others that share an interesting bend on topics of classical understanding. Do you share these types of suggestions to your students? Chinese Medicine zrosenbe Mon, 11 May 2009 17:06:28 -0700 Re: sedation and chai hu Mike, You raise some important questions. But we must begin with the fact that medical Chinese is a technical language, even though it is more metaphorical or dynamic than biomedicine. The ancient Chinese weren't so 'consumed by this' because there wasn't the issue of multi- cultural transmissions, the confusion of mixed medical paradigms that makes it difficult to tell where a technique or idea comes from sometimes. Again, as I've said many times, and Eric Brand has said many times, the issue is not reducing a character to one term equivalent, but accurate term choice. Sedation is not an accurate term choice for xie. Drain, reduce, etc. are possible choices. I see too many practitioners and students do not understand the terms they use, and cannot define the fundamental conceptual tools of our medicine, such as yuan qi, wei qi, jing/essence, supplement, nourish, etc. This leads to much confusion, loss of clinical detail, and, yes, clinical efficacy. On May 11, 2009, at 4:54 PM, mike Bowser wrote: > > Zev, > The problem we have here is that words can have many meanings and as > such they also reflect specifics within a certain context. You are > mentioning sedation as an end point, whereas the patient might be > focused upon the feeling during the process. That is what I had > eluded to previously. > I also think that we need to rethink the separation of the paradigms > of acupuncture from the Chinese herbal traditions, when it comes > down to terminology. Do we actually sedate, other then bleeding > techniques, in acupuncture or are we just changing the flow in the > channels? > It is apparent that we can argue this from many points and still > come to no agreement. I do not think the ancient Chinese were so > consumed by this. > I think it is important to remember that pictographs tell a story, a > concept and not just a term. That is western idea. I am not sure > that these attempts to apply reduction to a single term is accurate, > appropriate or clinically more effective. > Our translators do not use nor agree on every word, nor do the > published clinicians. Most importantly, we need to communicate with > the public about what we do in terms they can understand. > Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc > > Chinese Medicine > zrosenbe > Mon, 11 May 2009 08:48:33 -0700 > Re: sedation and chai hu > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Mike, > > Chai hu courses liver qi, more specifically gall bladder qi, and > > in doing so, the liver is calmed, as the liver needs free coursing to > > be healthy. However, it cannot be said to sedate the liver, as true > > sedation (which implies lack of movement) would lead to more liver > > depression, which would lead to increased heat and blood stasis. > > > > > > On May 11, 2009, at 7:40 AM, mike Bowser wrote: > > > >> > >> > >> > >> Something that occurred to me as I read over this post. Are we > >> describing the action at the level of the channel/organ or are we > >> focused upon the end result? I think our focal point is what really > >> matters in our dialogue, and both might be accurate. If we drain or > >> move the qi in a channel it can often times bring about a sedation, > >> not a drugging, but a mild sense of wellbeing or euphoria as things > >> feel better to the patient. I see this response a lot, usually after > >> we move something that also restricts full inspiration. > >> > >> Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc > >> > >> Chinese Medicine > >> > >> Sun, 10 May 2009 01:28:08 -0700 > >> sedation and chai hu > >> > >> I agree with you, Hugo. But if you read my discussions, I didn't > >> initiate the term xie to describe the action which resulted from my > >> treatment, but rather sedate. There is no disagreement. As far as > >> considering Chai Hu an herb which sedates, I think I would agree, as > >> it harmonizes Shao Yang, and uninhibits liver Qi stagnation. > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> --- On Fri, 5/8/09, Hugo Ramiro <subincor wrote: > >> > >> Hugo Ramiro <subincor > >> > >> Re: Terminology and Etymology > >> > >> Chinese Medicine > >> > >> Friday, May 8, 2009, 10:31 AM > >> > >> Hi Yehuda and All: > >> > >> --Yehuda- > >> > >> sedatus which means to compose, moderate, or quiet. If before I > >> > >> needle there is intercostal tenderness, burping and irritability, and > >> > >> after I needle the patient is happy and calm, can I not say that they > >> > >> are sedate (using the noun form)? > >> > >> --- > >> > >> The root of sedate as you describe it would then fit comfortably > >> with actions such harmonization, regulation and balancing. Sedate, > >> with a root as you describe it, does not fit with drain. > >> > >> Chai Hu is an herb which could, according to your definition, be > >> described as sedating. Huang Qin or Long Dan Cao, on the other hand, > >> cannot be described in this manner (since they drain), although they > >> are likely to have a *secondary* effect of " sedation " based on their > >> dosage, combination and length of use. > >> > >> Thoughts? > >> > >> Hugo > >> > >> ____________ _________ _________ __ > >> > >> Hugo Ramiro > >> > >> http://middlemedici ne.wordpress. com > >> > >> http://www.chinesem edicaltherapies. org > >> > >> ____________ _________ _________ __ > >> > >> > > >> > >> > >> > >> Friday, 8 May, 2009 2:48:21 > >> > >> Re: Terminology and Etymology > >> > >> Again, Daniel, I refer back to the etymological root of sedate, the > >> Latin term: Remember, as I mentioned earlier in this discussion, > >> sedation does not mean numbing. That is anesthesia. > >> > >> > >> > >> www.traditionaljewi shmedicine. net > >> > >> www.traditionaljewi shmedicine. blogspot. com > >> > >> --- On Thu, 5/7/09, Daniel Schulman <daniel.schulman@ > > >> wrote: > >> > >> Daniel Schulman <daniel.schulman@ > > >> > >> Re: Terminology and Etymology > >> > >> > >> > >> Thursday, May 7, 2009, 9:23 PM > >> > >> Obviously this is a debate that will go on forever. To put my two > >> cents in - on the one hand I do agree in instances that are > >> particularly egregious that correct terminology is important - and I > >> do think 'sedation' is one of those instances - because quite > >> simply, no matter how you look at it, I don't see how we can think > >> we sedate anything with acupuncture - we do drain things and get > >> things moving where they are stuck. On the other hand, the dogmatism > >> of the etymological purists can go too far - I just don't see how > >> 'torpid intake' is an improvement over 'lack of appetite' or 'poor > >> appetite' - I never knew the word 'torpid', still don't know it, I > >> can't relate to it, my patients certainly can't relate to it and > >> referring to eating as 'intake' sounds bizarre too. > >> > >> Regards > >> > >> Daniel > >> > >> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 15, 2009 Report Share Posted May 15, 2009 true sedation (which implies lack of movement), Dear Z'ev, it would take me several lifetimes to know what you do about chinese medicine. However, talking about words, in the realm of chinese medicine, sedate far from implies lack of movement. Again this is contextual, if you were my primary, root teacher, no problem . --- On Mon, 5/11/09, <zrosenbe wrote: <zrosenbe Re: sedation and chai hu Chinese Medicine Monday, May 11, 2009, 11:48 AM Mike, Chai hu courses liver qi, more specifically gall bladder qi, and in doing so, the liver is calmed, as the liver needs free coursing to be healthy. However, it cannot be said to sedate the liver, as true sedation (which implies lack of movement) would lead to more liver depression, which would lead to increased heat and blood stasis. On May 11, 2009, at 7:40 AM, mike Bowser wrote: > > > > Something that occurred to me as I read over this post. Are we > describing the action at the level of the channel/organ or are we > focused upon the end result? I think our focal point is what really > matters in our dialogue, and both might be accurate. If we drain or > move the qi in a channel it can often times bring about a sedation, > not a drugging, but a mild sense of wellbeing or euphoria as things > feel better to the patient. I see this response a lot, usually after > we move something that also restricts full inspiration. > > Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc > > > > Sun, 10 May 2009 01:28:08 -0700 > sedation and chai hu > > I agree with you, Hugo. But if you read my discussions, I didn't > initiate the term xie to describe the action which resulted from my > treatment, but rather sedate. There is no disagreement. As far as > considering Chai Hu an herb which sedates, I think I would agree, as > it harmonizes Shao Yang, and uninhibits liver Qi stagnation. > > > > www.traditionaljewi shmedicine. net > > www.traditionaljewi shmedicine. blogspot. com > > --- On Fri, 5/8/09, Hugo Ramiro <subincor > wrote: > > Hugo Ramiro <subincor > > > Re: Terminology and Etymology > > > > Friday, May 8, 2009, 10:31 AM > > Hi Yehuda and All: > > --Yehuda- > > sedatus which means to compose, moderate, or quiet. If before I > > needle there is intercostal tenderness, burping and irritability, and > > after I needle the patient is happy and calm, can I not say that they > > are sedate (using the noun form)? > > --- > > The root of sedate as you describe it would then fit comfortably > with actions such harmonization, regulation and balancing. Sedate, > with a root as you describe it, does not fit with drain. > > Chai Hu is an herb which could, according to your definition, be > described as sedating. Huang Qin or Long Dan Cao, on the other hand, > cannot be described in this manner (since they drain), although they > are likely to have a *secondary* effect of " sedation " based on their > dosage, combination and length of use. > > Thoughts? > > Hugo > > ____________ _________ _________ __ > > Hugo Ramiro > > http://middlemedici ne.wordpress. com > > http://www.chinesem edicaltherapies. org > > ____________ _________ _________ __ > > > > > > > Friday, 8 May, 2009 2:48:21 > > Re: Terminology and Etymology > > Again, Daniel, I refer back to the etymological root of sedate, the > Latin term: Remember, as I mentioned earlier in this discussion, > sedation does not mean numbing. That is anesthesia. > > > > www.traditionaljewi shmedicine. net > > www.traditionaljewi shmedicine. blogspot. com > > --- On Thu, 5/7/09, Daniel Schulman <daniel.schulman@ > > wrote: > > Daniel Schulman <daniel.schulman@ > > > Re: Terminology and Etymology > > > > Thursday, May 7, 2009, 9:23 PM > > Obviously this is a debate that will go on forever. To put my two > cents in - on the one hand I do agree in instances that are > particularly egregious that correct terminology is important - and I > do think 'sedation' is one of those instances - because quite > simply, no matter how you look at it, I don't see how we can think > we sedate anything with acupuncture - we do drain things and get > things moving where they are stuck. On the other hand, the dogmatism > of the etymological purists can go too far - I just don't see how > 'torpid intake' is an improvement over 'lack of appetite' or 'poor > appetite' - I never knew the word 'torpid', still don't know it, I > can't relate to it, my patients certainly can't relate to it and > referring to eating as 'intake' sounds bizarre too. > > Regards > > Daniel > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 16, 2009 Report Share Posted May 16, 2009 I'm a humble nobody. As read clinical notes, whether in terms that Nigel, Flaws, Bensky, who whatever brilliant person is elucidating, I compare terms, broadly, with what they are saying. My preference for my terminology will change. To understand is important, when I grasp the yin/yang of someone's dx and tx, then it makes sense. The particular words are many. Being facile, flexible is the threshold. I like the word sedate, but it would never make me reject the seriously important work others offer. Thanks. --- On Mon, 5/11/09, mike Bowser <naturaldoc1 wrote: mike Bowser <naturaldoc1 RE: sedation and chai hu Chinese Traditional Medicine Monday, May 11, 2009, 7:54 PM Zev, The problem we have here is that words can have many meanings and as such they also reflect specifics within a certain context. You are mentioning sedation as an end point, whereas the patient might be focused upon the feeling during the process. That is what I had eluded to previously. I also think that we need to rethink the separation of the paradigms of acupuncture from the Chinese herbal traditions, when it comes down to terminology. Do we actually sedate, other then bleeding techniques, in acupuncture or are we just changing the flow in the channels? It is apparent that we can argue this from many points and still come to no agreement. I do not think the ancient Chinese were so consumed by this. I think it is important to remember that pictographs tell a story, a concept and not just a term. That is western idea. I am not sure that these attempts to apply reduction to a single term is accurate, appropriate or clinically more effective. Our translators do not use nor agree on every word, nor do the published clinicians. Most importantly, we need to communicate with the public about what we do in terms they can understand. Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc Chinese Medicine zrosenbe Mon, 11 May 2009 08:48:33 -0700 Re: TCM - sedation and chai hu                     Mike,   Chai hu courses liver qi, more specifically gall bladder qi, and in doing so, the liver is calmed, as the liver needs free coursing to be healthy. However, it cannot be said to sedate the liver, as true sedation (which implies lack of movement) would lead to more liver depression, which would lead to increased heat and blood stasis. On May 11, 2009, at 7:40 AM, mike Bowser wrote: > > > > Something that occurred to me as I read over this post. Are we > describing the action at the level of the channel/organ or are we > focused upon the end result? I think our focal point is what really > matters in our dialogue, and both might be accurate. If we drain or > move the qi in a channel it can often times bring about a sedation, > not a drugging, but a mild sense of wellbeing or euphoria as things > feel better to the patient. I see this response a lot, usually after > we move something that also restricts full inspiration. > > Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc > > Chinese Medicine > > Sun, 10 May 2009 01:28:08 -0700 > sedation and chai hu > > I agree with you, Hugo. But if you read my discussions, I didn't > initiate the term xie to describe the action which resulted from my > treatment, but rather sedate. There is no disagreement. As far as > considering Chai Hu an herb which sedates, I think I would agree, as > it harmonizes Shao Yang, and uninhibits liver Qi stagnation. > > > > > > > > --- On Fri, 5/8/09, Hugo Ramiro <subincor wrote: > > Hugo Ramiro <subincor > > Re: Terminology and Etymology > > Chinese Medicine > > Friday, May 8, 2009, 10:31 AM > > Hi Yehuda and All: > > --Yehuda- > > sedatus which means to compose, moderate, or quiet. If before I > > needle there is intercostal tenderness, burping and irritability, and > > after I needle the patient is happy and calm, can I not say that they > > are sedate (using the noun form)? > > --- > > The root of sedate as you describe it would then fit comfortably > with actions such harmonization, regulation and balancing. Sedate, > with a root as you describe it, does not fit with drain. > > Chai Hu is an herb which could, according to your definition, be > described as sedating. Huang Qin or Long Dan Cao, on the other hand, > cannot be described in this manner (since they drain), although they > are likely to have a *secondary* effect of " sedation " based on their > dosage, combination and length of use. > > Thoughts? > > Hugo > > ____________ _________ _________ __ > > Hugo Ramiro > > http://middlemedici ne.wordpress. com > > http://www.chinesem edicaltherapies. org > > ____________ _________ _________ __ > > > > > > > Friday, 8 May, 2009 2:48:21 > > Re: Terminology and Etymology > > Again, Daniel, I refer back to the etymological root of sedate, the > Latin term: Remember, as I mentioned earlier in this discussion, > sedation does not mean numbing. That is anesthesia. > > > > www.traditionaljewi shmedicine. net > > www.traditionaljewi shmedicine. blogspot. com > > --- On Thu, 5/7/09, Daniel Schulman <daniel.schulman@ > > wrote: > > Daniel Schulman <daniel.schulman@ > > > Re: Terminology and Etymology > > > > Thursday, May 7, 2009, 9:23 PM > > Obviously this is a debate that will go on forever. To put my two > cents in - on the one hand I do agree in instances that are > particularly egregious that correct terminology is important - and I > do think 'sedation' is one of those instances - because quite > simply, no matter how you look at it, I don't see how we can think > we sedate anything with acupuncture - we do drain things and get > things moving where they are stuck. On the other hand, the dogmatism > of the etymological purists can go too far - I just don't see how > 'torpid intake' is an improvement over 'lack of appetite' or 'poor > appetite' - I never knew the word 'torpid', still don't know it, I > can't relate to it, my patients certainly can't relate to it and > referring to eating as 'intake' sounds bizarre too. > > Regards > > Daniel > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You are posting as a guest. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.