Guest guest Posted May 11, 2009 Report Share Posted May 11, 2009 Dear Group, I am scheduled to see a patient tomorrow who is seeking help for excess saliva. She said she was diagnosed with " GERD " as the cause. She also said that she has so much saliva that her dentist told her it is wearing away the enamel on her (expensive) dental repairs. She also mentioned that she has very strong axillary odor (not sweating) and has tried perscription deodorant without improvement. I will get further history/exam tomorrow, but I'm wondering about the excess saliva from TCM perspective. Saliva being the humor of the kidney, I can find only reference to lack of saliva/dry mouth (kidney failing to steam fluids). Of course I will put all of her info together, but I am wondering what some pathomechanisms might be that would cause this problem. Thanks so much, Jean Dombroski, L.Ac. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 11, 2009 Report Share Posted May 11, 2009 Hi Jean, A couple of quick things: 1. Strong axillary odor almost always means Zinc deficiency. Have your patient take 25mg Zinc picolinate BID, and see if it doesn't resolve itself within 3 days. 2. As far as the salivation goes, it could be related to Kidney or it could be related to Spleen, but you really can't know without checking tongue and pulse, taking a history, seeing the patient and determining a differential diagnosis. A must read is Steven Clavey's Fluid Physiology and Pathology in Traditional ISBN-13: 978-0-443-07194-2 If I remember correctly, there are selections of the book that are available free on line, so do a Google search and check it out. Much success with your new patient! --- On Sun, 5/10/09, Jean <greypal wrote: Jean <greypal excess saliva Chinese Medicine Sunday, May 10, 2009, 4:52 PM Dear Group, I am scheduled to see a patient tomorrow who is seeking help for excess saliva. She said she was diagnosed with " GERD " as the cause. She also said that she has so much saliva that her dentist told her it is wearing away the enamel on her (expensive) dental repairs. She also mentioned that she has very strong axillary odor (not sweating) and has tried perscription deodorant without improvement. I will get further history/exam tomorrow, but I'm wondering about the excess saliva from TCM perspective. Saliva being the humor of the kidney, I can find only reference to lack of saliva/dry mouth (kidney failing to steam fluids). Of course I will put all of her info together, but I am wondering what some pathomechanisms might be that would cause this problem. Thanks so much, Jean Dombroski, L.Ac. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 11, 2009 Report Share Posted May 11, 2009 Yi zhi ren is used for excessive salivation (empirically) Maciocia says that saliva belongs to SP and spittle belongs to KD Aside from SP qi/yang xu, what about parasites? On Mon, May 11, 2009 at 12:05 AM, wrote: > > > Hi Jean, > > A couple of quick things: > 1. Strong axillary odor almost always means Zinc deficiency. Have your > patient take 25mg Zinc picolinate BID, and see if it doesn't resolve itself > within 3 days. > > 2. As far as the salivation goes, it could be related to Kidney or it > could be related to Spleen, but you really can't know without checking > tongue and pulse, taking a history, seeing the patient and determining a > differential diagnosis. A must read is Steven Clavey's > Fluid Physiology and Pathology in Traditional > ISBN-13: 978-0-443-07194-2 > If I remember correctly, there are selections of the book that are > available free on line, so do a Google search and check it out. > > Much success with your new patient! > > > > > > > > --- On Sun, 5/10/09, Jean <greypal <greypal%40>> wrote: > > Jean <greypal <greypal%40>> > excess saliva > To: Chinese Medicine <Chinese Medicine%40yaho\ ogroups.com> > Sunday, May 10, 2009, 4:52 PM > > > Dear Group, > I am scheduled to see a patient tomorrow who is seeking > help for excess saliva. > > She said she was diagnosed with " GERD " as the cause. > She also said that she has so much saliva that her dentist > told her it is wearing away the enamel on her (expensive) > dental repairs. > > She also mentioned that she has very strong axillary odor > (not sweating) and has tried perscription deodorant > without improvement. > > I will get further history/exam tomorrow, but I'm wondering > about the excess saliva from TCM perspective. > > Saliva being the humor of the kidney, I can find only > reference to lack of saliva/dry mouth (kidney failing to > steam fluids). > > Of course I will put all of her info together, > but I am wondering what some pathomechanisms might be > that would cause this problem. > > Thanks so much, > Jean Dombroski, L.Ac. > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 11, 2009 Report Share Posted May 11, 2009 Maybe also. Have them stick their feet in a electric detox foot bath. there are many available and I build my own. The crud that pours from normal people is, sometimes incredible. And sometimes the people you think are dirty, aren't. As the people we associate as clean, also, are not. The toxins in the body are pushed out by good integral force. Heads, armpits, pubic, even egg, sweat. Breathe. Funny how misconception endures. --- On Mon, 5/11/09, wrote: Re: excess saliva Chinese Medicine Monday, May 11, 2009, 3:05 AM Hi Jean, A couple of quick things: 1. Strong axillary odor almost always means Zinc deficiency. Have your patient take 25mg Zinc picolinate BID, and see if it doesn't resolve itself within 3 days. 2. As far as the salivation goes, it could be related to Kidney or it could be related to Spleen, but you really can't know without checking tongue and pulse, taking a history, seeing the patient and determining a differential diagnosis. A must read is Steven Clavey's Fluid Physiology and Pathology in Traditional ISBN-13: 978-0-443-07194- 2 If I remember correctly, there are selections of the book that are available free on line, so do a Google search and check it out. Much success with your new patient! www.traditionaljewi shmedicine. net www.traditionaljewi shmedicine. blogspot. com --- On Sun, 5/10/09, Jean <greypal > wrote: Jean <greypal > excess saliva Sunday, May 10, 2009, 4:52 PM Dear Group, I am scheduled to see a patient tomorrow who is seeking help for excess saliva. She said she was diagnosed with " GERD " as the cause. She also said that she has so much saliva that her dentist told her it is wearing away the enamel on her (expensive) dental repairs. She also mentioned that she has very strong axillary odor (not sweating) and has tried perscription deodorant without improvement. I will get further history/exam tomorrow, but I'm wondering about the excess saliva from TCM perspective. Saliva being the humor of the kidney, I can find only reference to lack of saliva/dry mouth (kidney failing to steam fluids). Of course I will put all of her info together, but I am wondering what some pathomechanisms might be that would cause this problem. Thanks so much, Jean Dombroski, L.Ac. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 11, 2009 Report Share Posted May 11, 2009 thank you Yehuda for the information on the book. the Chinese medical dictionary listed " spittle " and " drool " as saliva. Spittle for the kidney, drool for the spleen. Of course I will determine by her presentation, but I like to understand the *why* of any pathomechanism. What type of parasites? I will recommend the zinc to hear as well. Thank you again, Jean Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 11, 2009 Report Share Posted May 11, 2009 Hi Yehuda, Very interesting about the zinc. Do you have a source for that use of the zinc. I have not heard it before. Be well, Bob Robert Linde, AP, RH Professional Herbalists Training Program Acupuncture & Herbal Therapies 901 Central Ave St. Petersburg, FL 33705 www.acuherbals.com 727-551-0857 --- On Mon, 5/11/09, wrote: Re: excess saliva Chinese Medicine Monday, May 11, 2009, 3:05 AM Hi Jean, A couple of quick things: 1. Strong axillary odor almost always means Zinc deficiency. Have your patient take 25mg Zinc picolinate BID, and see if it doesn't resolve itself within 3 days. 2. As far as the salivation goes, it could be related to Kidney or it could be related to Spleen, but you really can't know without checking tongue and pulse, taking a history, seeing the patient and determining a differential diagnosis. A must read is Steven Clavey's Fluid Physiology and Pathology in Traditional ISBN-13: 978-0-443-07194- 2 If I remember correctly, there are selections of the book that are available free on line, so do a Google search and check it out. Much success with your new patient! www.traditionaljewi shmedicine. net www.traditionaljewi shmedicine. blogspot. com --- On Sun, 5/10/09, Jean <greypal > wrote: Jean <greypal > excess saliva Sunday, May 10, 2009, 4:52 PM Dear Group, I am scheduled to see a patient tomorrow who is seeking help for excess saliva. She said she was diagnosed with " GERD " as the cause. She also said that she has so much saliva that her dentist told her it is wearing away the enamel on her (expensive) dental repairs. She also mentioned that she has very strong axillary odor (not sweating) and has tried perscription deodorant without improvement. I will get further history/exam tomorrow, but I'm wondering about the excess saliva from TCM perspective. Saliva being the humor of the kidney, I can find only reference to lack of saliva/dry mouth (kidney failing to steam fluids). Of course I will put all of her info together, but I am wondering what some pathomechanisms might be that would cause this problem. Thanks so much, Jean Dombroski, L.Ac. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 11, 2009 Report Share Posted May 11, 2009 I had a recent patient with hypersalivation that began after using antibiotics for a bladder infection last summer. She also had cracking, dry lips, occasional vaginal yeast problems, and caught colds easily. She also suffered from anxiety. Her pulse was soggy and wiry, tending to rapid, a dark red tongue with cracks, thick yellow coating. Her diagnosis was liver and kidney yin vacuity, liver qi depression and liver/spleen disharmony. I gave her hei xiao yao wan to begin with, then moved to ling gui zhu gan tang, a Shang Han Lun formula. The hypersalivation completely resolved. She recently had another bladder infection which I treated with a combination of si ni san and zhu ling tang that resolved the problem completely within 24 hours., along with needling K6/H5/TB3/GB43 with Liv 8 unilaterally, and St 28 on the abdomen. On May 11, 2009, at 12:23 AM, wrote: > > > Yi zhi ren is used for excessive salivation (empirically) > > Maciocia says that saliva belongs to SP and spittle belongs to KD > > Aside from SP qi/yang xu, what about parasites? > > On Mon, May 11, 2009 at 12:05 AM, yehuda frischman > <wrote: > > > > > > > Hi Jean, > > > > A couple of quick things: > > 1. Strong axillary odor almost always means Zinc deficiency. Have > your > > patient take 25mg Zinc picolinate BID, and see if it doesn't > resolve itself > > within 3 days. > > > > 2. As far as the salivation goes, it could be related to Kidney or > it > > could be related to Spleen, but you really can't know without > checking > > tongue and pulse, taking a history, seeing the patient and > determining a > > differential diagnosis. A must read is Steven Clavey's > > Fluid Physiology and Pathology in Traditional > > ISBN-13: 978-0-443-07194-2 > > If I remember correctly, there are selections of the book that are > > available free on line, so do a Google search and check it out. > > > > Much success with your new patient! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- On Sun, 5/10/09, Jean <greypal <greypal > %40>> wrote: > > > > Jean <greypal <greypal%40>> > > excess saliva > > To: > Chinese Medicine > @<Chinese Medicine%40> > > Sunday, May 10, 2009, 4:52 PM > > > > > > Dear Group, > > I am scheduled to see a patient tomorrow who is seeking > > help for excess saliva. > > > > She said she was diagnosed with " GERD " as the cause. > > She also said that she has so much saliva that her dentist > > told her it is wearing away the enamel on her (expensive) > > dental repairs. > > > > She also mentioned that she has very strong axillary odor > > (not sweating) and has tried perscription deodorant > > without improvement. > > > > I will get further history/exam tomorrow, but I'm wondering > > about the excess saliva from TCM perspective. > > > > Saliva being the humor of the kidney, I can find only > > reference to lack of saliva/dry mouth (kidney failing to > > steam fluids). > > > > Of course I will put all of her info together, > > but I am wondering what some pathomechanisms might be > > that would cause this problem. > > > > Thanks so much, > > Jean Dombroski, L.Ac. > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 11, 2009 Report Share Posted May 11, 2009 Jean, Drooling especially during sleep can happen because of mouth breathing (Qi xu) and potentially parasitic infection. Which parasite? Your patient can get tested for numerous ones. Another sign of parasitic infection can be chronic fatigue (Qi xu) I'm not saying that your patient has parasites, just taking note that excessive drooling can point to parasitic infection. Is it Maciocia who wrote that Saliva (xian) is a thin and clear fluid derived from the parotid gland and that Spittle is a thick and turbid fluid derived from the maxillary and sublingual glands ? Since the main diagnosis was GERD, that could point to LV/ST disharmony... Otherwise, looking forward to more info. Smelly armpits can also be a sign of damp-heat. Red meat, garlic, onions and alcohol can all exacerbate this condition. How does this relate to Zinc def? Most likely, your patient can benefit from dietary changes... GERD, excessive saliva, stinky armpits. K On Mon, May 11, 2009 at 12:23 AM, <johnkokko wrote: > Yi zhi ren is used for excessive salivation (empirically) > > Maciocia says that saliva belongs to SP and spittle belongs to KD > > Aside from SP qi/yang xu, what about parasites? > > > > On Mon, May 11, 2009 at 12:05 AM, wrote: > >> >> >> Hi Jean, >> >> A couple of quick things: >> 1. Strong axillary odor almost always means Zinc deficiency. Have your >> patient take 25mg Zinc picolinate BID, and see if it doesn't resolve itself >> within 3 days. >> >> 2. As far as the salivation goes, it could be related to Kidney or it >> could be related to Spleen, but you really can't know without checking >> tongue and pulse, taking a history, seeing the patient and determining a >> differential diagnosis. A must read is Steven Clavey's >> Fluid Physiology and Pathology in Traditional >> ISBN-13: 978-0-443-07194-2 >> If I remember correctly, there are selections of the book that are >> available free on line, so do a Google search and check it out. >> >> Much success with your new patient! >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> --- On Sun, 5/10/09, Jean <greypal <greypal%40>> >> wrote: >> >> Jean <greypal <greypal%40>> >> excess saliva >> To: Chinese Medicine <Chinese Medicine%40yaho\ ogroups.com> >> Sunday, May 10, 2009, 4:52 PM >> >> >> Dear Group, >> I am scheduled to see a patient tomorrow who is seeking >> help for excess saliva. >> >> She said she was diagnosed with " GERD " as the cause. >> She also said that she has so much saliva that her dentist >> told her it is wearing away the enamel on her (expensive) >> dental repairs. >> >> She also mentioned that she has very strong axillary odor >> (not sweating) and has tried perscription deodorant >> without improvement. >> >> I will get further history/exam tomorrow, but I'm wondering >> about the excess saliva from TCM perspective. >> >> Saliva being the humor of the kidney, I can find only >> reference to lack of saliva/dry mouth (kidney failing to >> steam fluids). >> >> Of course I will put all of her info together, >> but I am wondering what some pathomechanisms might be >> that would cause this problem. >> >> Thanks so much, >> Jean Dombroski, L.Ac. >> >> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 11, 2009 Report Share Posted May 11, 2009 Hi Bob, One of my patients gave me a newsletter from Jonathan Wright, MD. In it was an extensive article on functions of Zinc, and symptoms of Zinc deficiency. I have it at my office and I recall that it was annotated. I'll try to find the reference. I can tell you,though, that anecdotally, I have used it in a number of cases in the last couple of years, and it works like a charm. --- On Mon, 5/11/09, Bob Linde, AP, Herbalist <boblindeherbalist wrote: Bob Linde, AP, Herbalist <boblindeherbalist Re: excess saliva Chinese Medicine Monday, May 11, 2009, 5:57 AM Hi Yehuda, Very interesting about the zinc. Do you have a source for that use of the zinc. I have not heard it before. Be well, Bob Robert Linde, AP, RH Professional Herbalists Training Program Acupuncture & Herbal Therapies 901 Central Ave St. Petersburg, FL 33705 www.acuherbals. com 727-551-0857 --- On Mon, 5/11/09, > wrote: > Re: excess saliva Monday, May 11, 2009, 3:05 AM Hi Jean, A couple of quick things: 1. Strong axillary odor almost always means Zinc deficiency. Have your patient take 25mg Zinc picolinate BID, and see if it doesn't resolve itself within 3 days. 2. As far as the salivation goes, it could be related to Kidney or it could be related to Spleen, but you really can't know without checking tongue and pulse, taking a history, seeing the patient and determining a differential diagnosis. A must read is Steven Clavey's Fluid Physiology and Pathology in Traditional ISBN-13: 978-0-443-07194- 2 If I remember correctly, there are selections of the book that are available free on line, so do a Google search and check it out. Much success with your new patient! www.traditionaljewi shmedicine. net www.traditionaljewi shmedicine. blogspot. com --- On Sun, 5/10/09, Jean <greypal > wrote: Jean <greypal > excess saliva Sunday, May 10, 2009, 4:52 PM Dear Group, I am scheduled to see a patient tomorrow who is seeking help for excess saliva. She said she was diagnosed with " GERD " as the cause. She also said that she has so much saliva that her dentist told her it is wearing away the enamel on her (expensive) dental repairs. She also mentioned that she has very strong axillary odor (not sweating) and has tried perscription deodorant without improvement. I will get further history/exam tomorrow, but I'm wondering about the excess saliva from TCM perspective. Saliva being the humor of the kidney, I can find only reference to lack of saliva/dry mouth (kidney failing to steam fluids). Of course I will put all of her info together, but I am wondering what some pathomechanisms might be that would cause this problem. Thanks so much, Jean Dombroski, L.Ac. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 14, 2009 Report Share Posted May 14, 2009 Yehuda, I would like more info on zinc if you have more.Zinc is potent anti viral and also the components of spit are very important to our first line of defense the mucosal surfaces and skin, the largest immune organ in the body. Any info you can provide would be helpful. In the book Minerals and the Genetic Code, they list the plants where you can find zinc as a component and then introduce into diet as food therapy. I am sure this is also a significant part of the success of Chinese Food Therapy not just energetics. Sincerely, Patricia Jordan DVM,CVA,CTCVM & Herbology Chinese Medicine Mon, 11 May 2009 15:25:46 -0700 Re: excess saliva Hi Bob, One of my patients gave me a newsletter from Jonathan Wright, MD. In it was an extensive article on functions of Zinc, and symptoms of Zinc deficiency. I have it at my office and I recall that it was annotated. I'll try to find the reference. I can tell you,though, that anecdotally, I have used it in a number of cases in the last couple of years, and it works like a charm. --- On Mon, 5/11/09, Bob Linde, AP, Herbalist <boblindeherbalist wrote: Bob Linde, AP, Herbalist <boblindeherbalist Re: excess saliva Chinese Medicine Monday, May 11, 2009, 5:57 AM Hi Yehuda, Very interesting about the zinc. Do you have a source for that use of the zinc. I have not heard it before. Be well, Bob Robert Linde, AP, RH Professional Herbalists Training Program Acupuncture & Herbal Therapies 901 Central Ave St. Petersburg, FL 33705 www.acuherbals. com 727-551-0857 --- On Mon, 5/11/09, > wrote: > Re: excess saliva Monday, May 11, 2009, 3:05 AM Hi Jean, A couple of quick things: 1. Strong axillary odor almost always means Zinc deficiency. Have your patient take 25mg Zinc picolinate BID, and see if it doesn't resolve itself within 3 days. 2. As far as the salivation goes, it could be related to Kidney or it could be related to Spleen, but you really can't know without checking tongue and pulse, taking a history, seeing the patient and determining a differential diagnosis. A must read is Steven Clavey's Fluid Physiology and Pathology in Traditional ISBN-13: 978-0-443-07194- 2 If I remember correctly, there are selections of the book that are available free on line, so do a Google search and check it out. Much success with your new patient! www.traditionaljewi shmedicine. net www.traditionaljewi shmedicine. blogspot. com --- On Sun, 5/10/09, Jean <greypal > wrote: Jean <greypal > excess saliva Sunday, May 10, 2009, 4:52 PM Dear Group, I am scheduled to see a patient tomorrow who is seeking help for excess saliva. She said she was diagnosed with " GERD " as the cause. She also said that she has so much saliva that her dentist told her it is wearing away the enamel on her (expensive) dental repairs. She also mentioned that she has very strong axillary odor (not sweating) and has tried perscription deodorant without improvement. I will get further history/exam tomorrow, but I'm wondering about the excess saliva from TCM perspective. Saliva being the humor of the kidney, I can find only reference to lack of saliva/dry mouth (kidney failing to steam fluids). Of course I will put all of her info together, but I am wondering what some pathomechanisms might be that would cause this problem. Thanks so much, Jean Dombroski, L.Ac. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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