Guest guest Posted April 23, 2009 Report Share Posted April 23, 2009 If you don't know why this ( http://tinyurl.com/co49ke ) was a very bad idea then I suggest you read this. http://tinyurl.com/David-Kailin-MS-MPH-PhD Protect yourself and your profession. It will be interesting to see how this event plays out. Regards, Michael Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 24, 2009 Report Share Posted April 24, 2009 Yipes. Maybe to those familiar w acup, it wouldn't be a big deal. But as a parent, I would want to have permission asked first before someone did any medical procedure on my child, unless I knew them, or it was an emergency. They all probably did have a great time that day, and was barrier breaking, but to do that in a state where prior consent by an md is mandated, is opening your door to the courts. A slap on the wrist would be enough here. Remember tho, many conservative media agendas, and others, group alternative medicine with useless quackery and aren't shy about saying so. Military industrial corporate complex stuff. sigh --- On Thu, 4/23/09, mpplac <inquiry wrote: mpplac <inquiry Acupuncture demo goes wrong Chinese Medicine Thursday, April 23, 2009, 4:49 PM If you don't know why this ( http://tinyurl. com/co49ke ) was a very bad idea then I suggest you read this. http://tinyurl. com/David- Kailin-MS- MPH-PhD Protect yourself and your profession. It will be interesting to see how this event plays out. Regards, Michael Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 24, 2009 Report Share Posted April 24, 2009 I found the piece sympathetic to the acupuncturist. And were they actually referring to acupuncturists as " health officials " ? --- But health officials say that doesn't mean the acupuncturist didn't make a huge mistake. Lynn Almloff, a licensed acupuncturist, says " It is something I wouldn't do, I [don't] know anyone who would do anything like that. " To her, Virginia's State Board of Medicine make it clear, you simply can't do acupuncture without consent and without written proof that the patient has seen a doctor first. --- We may be making an impact. This type of ethical dilemma is heartbreaking. There is a clear potential for danger, but then again, are we going to live our life wrapped in layer after layer of redtape, living a life mediated by legalisms? And Kailin's book is excellent and a recommended read. Hugo ________________________________ Hugo Ramiro http://middlemedicine.wordpress.com http://www.chinesemedicaltherapies.org ________________________________ mpplac <inquiry Chinese Medicine Thursday, 23 April, 2009 16:49:39 Acupuncture demo goes wrong If you don't know why this ( http://tinyurl. com/co49ke ) was a very bad idea then I suggest you read this. http://tinyurl. com/David- Kailin-MS- MPH-PhD Protect yourself and your profession. It will be interesting to see how this event plays out. Regards, Michael Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 24, 2009 Report Share Posted April 24, 2009 Chinese Medicine , " mpplac " <inquiry wrote: > > If you don't know why this ( http://tinyurl.com/co49ke ) was a very bad idea then I suggest you read this. http://tinyurl.com/David-Kailin-MS-MPH-PhD If people don't see what is wrong with this, they don't need to read a book, they need to lose their license. Even if one forgets about the legal consent required by signature, how can a third grader provide any form of consent? Maybe Du20 is a safe point as far as needling goes, but energetically it is very strong. This was a STUPID move, there is no defense for it, and she should lose her license. It also makes our profession look silly. I'm glad the report had another acupuncturist who condemned it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 24, 2009 Report Share Posted April 24, 2009 I don't think it will play out well in VA. That is a pretty conservative state. Acupuncture is the mysterious profession and to think we violated a boundary! But let's hope for the best. A few years ago, the middle school where my daughter and son had gone to school (they were out by then), asked me to participate in career day. I brought my charts, needles and color lights. I also brought consent forms. I had the teachers who signed the consent forms act as the demo for needles and lights.  The kids really wanted me to use at least the lights on them.  I told them about the concentration point 1 finger width above yin tan. They were urging me to do it, but I refused and said I needed a parental consent. I did show them where it was, and they could press it. I did get an evaluation from one the sixth graders thanking me for showing him the concentration point and that he pressed it when needed. So, moral of the story, thank all Higher Powers, I didn't do it. That middle school is about 10 miles north of rural VA. It is the furthest south school in Maryland. Anne C. Crowley, L.Ac., Dipl.Ac. www.LaPlataAcupuncture.com - " mpplac " <inquiry " Traditional " <Chinese Medicine > Thursday, April 23, 2009 4:49:39 PM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern  Acupuncture demo goes wrong If you don't know why this ( http://tinyurl.com/co49ke ) was a very bad idea then I suggest you read this. http://tinyurl.com/David-Kailin-MS-MPH-PhD Protect yourself and your profession. It will be interesting to see how this event plays out. Regards, Michael Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 25, 2009 Report Share Posted April 25, 2009 Chinese Medicine , Anne Crowley <anne.crowley wrote: " I don't think it will play out well in VA. That is a pretty conservative state. Acupuncture is the mysterious profession and to think we violated a boundary! But let's hope for the best. " Gosh - so much more than an error of judgment! Setting aside the evident medico-legal matter of consent, and 'treating' minors without their parents' knowledge, there is the distressing fact that little kids received acupuncture at points that have an effect on consciousness. It will no doubt be argued the children were assaulted. This 'event' was a violation of many forms of trust, on many levels, and has implications and consequences for many folk. Margi Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 25, 2009 Report Share Posted April 25, 2009 Hi Margi and All: This is not aimed at Margi in particular, but at all of us. While there are obvious legal boundary violations, I have to say that it doesn't seem so clear cut to me. Clearly we can think in terms of the repercussions for our profession, and that would be a very arbitrary (but relevant) cultural-legal issue...but to say that it was so bad and that the points affect consciousness? A number of my friends are teachers, and they (knowing something of CM through me or their own culture) are astounded not only at how parents starve their children (white bread and processed cheese + crackers) but also how this whole process affects their consciousness in an extremely deleterious way. It is crystal clear to these teachers that students fare well or poorly LARGELY based on their diet. It is a certainty to predict which children will struggle with learning or behavioural issues based on observation of their first few lunches and snacks in the first few days of school. Aware teachers are incensed about this flagrant disregard for health. I am not surprised that, in a type of desperation, some teachers are trying to bring in any type of healing influence in the classroom. Thanks ignorant parents, or should we place this at the footstep of our " healthcare system " ? We couldn't of course, there is no accountability for this. But god the acupuncturist put needles in the kids. Imaging how a child's course in life is changed by their diet, how the spirit is clouded by excess sugar intake, how the will is damaged. We can't sue the sugar companies either. Look how long tobacco survived w/o consequences...and even so they're still doing well! The " real and present " danger to children in this example is the kid's diet and the parent and healthcare establishment's ignorance on this issue, not a single acupuncturist who made some errors in judgement. But we can always be small-minded about it (sorry Margi!). Consent is a REALLY thorny issue, and how can we say that consent has occurred, when, for example, a child of 5 w/ recurrent ear infections is repeatedly prescribed antibiotics by the genius pediatrician, and the parents, not knowing any better, " consent " ? Western bioethics centres have not been bad at all about pointing out the SERIOUS deficiencies re consent as carried out by the western medical establishment. Consent is NOT as simple as signing a waiver. And as a legal point - please nobody believe that your little waivers and consent forms will hold up in court. They won't. They'll just help support the idea that you make an attempt to be professional and you're not a total quack. Doesn't mean you shouldn't do it, but again, consent is not a simple topic. I have a story which I will not share right now that elucidates the twisted mess that consent is, and how a small child suffered tremendously for a tiny problem (and may have even died) because the mother didn't go with what she knew, the father put on a superman cape, and the hospital pretended to be the repository of all knowledge. I had my hands tied of course - and for good reason. How about the parents who DO understand the diet issues above, try to get their kids eating well, and the kids (and the parents) essentially have to spend all their time swimming upstream? The frustration the parents I know who express this is severe. Where is consent here? To have a school that pressures kids to eat fruits and cranberry juice in the winter all because some nutrionist working for the schoolboard says it's necessary? I don't consent, I see enforcement and peer-pressure (many of you, of course, are thinkng about vaccination). I'd like to see the consent forms regarding snacking programs in the school. What, they're not there (he says deadpan). Again, I would not do what that acupuncturist did, but I despise situations where the spider's web catches the fly and lets the hawk go free. But, as usual, I guess, the people with the power will be making the final judgements. Thank Buddha that despite that, it is not they who define the truth and what is right. No wonder some of the best people on the planet choose to be hermits. This has the potential to degenerate into very bad scaremongering, and as a profession we can choose which way it will go. There are real dangers and that acupuncturist is not it. And if we are going to be protectionist about this and demand that this lady lose her license for this, then we are well on the way to being automatons working for the medico-legal establishment, and worse, doing exactly what the western medico-legal WANTS us to do (divide and conquer, have us develop an auto-immune disease). Do any of you REALLY think that an MD would lose their license for something like this? NO! They woudl receive the proverbial slap on the wrist, and if it was something more serious, some retraining, and otherwise the College of Phys and Surg (or equivalent) would PROTECT them!!! Are we worth so little to each other?? Honestly, everyone, I feel ashamed at this point in time. We'll fail if this is what our attitude is to eachother. If anyone wants to complicate their lives further, find and watch " Gua Sha / The Treatment " (2001) with Tony Leung. Look it up on IMDB. Hope no one takes this personally. I mean it all in solidarity. All my sympathy is with that lady, in understanding of her lapse in judgement to not realise that she's surrounded by wolves and you can't be stupid when that's the case. In fear for our delicate profession, Hugo ________________________________ Hugo Ramiro http://middlemedicine.wordpress.com http://www.chinesemedicaltherapies.org ________________________________ margi.macdonald <margi.macdonald Chinese Medicine Friday, 24 April, 2009 19:52:36 Re: Acupuncture demo goes wrong Traditional_ Chinese_Medicine , Anne Crowley <anne.crowley@ ...> wrote: " I don't think it will play out well in VA. That is a pretty conservative state. Acupuncture is the mysterious professio n and to think we violated a boundary! But let's hope for the best. " Gosh - so much more than an error of judgment! Setting aside the evident medico-legal matter of consent, and 'treating' minors without their parents' knowledge, there is the distressing fact that little kids received acupuncture at points that have an effect on consciousness. It will no doubt be argued the children were assaulted. This 'event' was a violation of many forms of trust, on many levels, and has implications and consequences for many folk. Margi Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You are posting as a guest. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.