Guest guest Posted April 18, 2009 Report Share Posted April 18, 2009 All of my patients pay on day of service, but recently one came in with a declined credit card. I've never heard from him since, despite 1 call and 2 letters over 6 weeks. What is the next step? what have you done in such circumstances? I've never had to go to a collection agency so not sure what kind of trouble that's worth, or just write it off? Can I legally charge interest and report to his credit? I don't have his ss#... how long do you wait? thanks for your input sami Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 19, 2009 Report Share Posted April 19, 2009 I sort of look at it as the patient doing you a favor by not coming for further visits. If the person doesn't comply with this simple contract of payment, patient compliance with your suggestions won't happen. They knew how much they were supposed to pay and purposely misled you. I've had a few patients like this over the 20+ years I've been in practice and I later heard a couple of them did this on a regular basis with all sorts of medical folks, even suing one of them who is one of the most compassionate practitioners locally. Consider yourself lucky. David Molony On Apr 19, 2009, at 4:52:59 AM, mystir <ykcul_ritsym wrote: Hi. I liked some of the responses. In professions, we will do work for free, pro bono. I believe mostly everyone would pay their bills if they could, and the feeling of shame in not being to do so, makes them withdraw. Not out of disrespect, but out of respect. The tears hidden in the world's pillows are met at the needle point, and fall away. --- On Sat, 4/18/09, Sami Rank LAc <herbsnacupnxr wrote: Sami Rank LAc <herbsnacupnxr patient non-payment To: Chinese Medicine Saturday, April 18, 2009, 6:25 PM All of my patients pay on day of service, but recently one came in with a declined credit card. I've never heard from him since, despite 1 call and 2 letters over 6 weeks. What is the next step? what have you done in such circumstances? I've never had to go to a collection agency so not sure what kind of trouble that's worth, or just write it off? Can I legally charge interest and report to his credit? I don't have his ss#... how long do you wait? thanks for your input sami Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 19, 2009 Report Share Posted April 19, 2009 Hi Sami. To me, just to me, if it's wages for one or two treatments, just let it go. The time and trouble isn't worth chasing. --- On Sat, 4/18/09, Sami Rank LAc <herbsnacupnxr wrote: Sami Rank LAc <herbsnacupnxr patient non-payment Chinese Medicine Saturday, April 18, 2009, 6:25 PM All of my patients pay on day of service, but recently one came in with a declined credit card. I've never heard from him since, despite 1 call and 2 letters over 6 weeks. What is the next step? what have you done in such circumstances? I've never had to go to a collection agency so not sure what kind of trouble that's worth, or just write it off? Can I legally charge interest and report to his credit? I don't have his ss#... how long do you wait? thanks for your input sami Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 19, 2009 Report Share Posted April 19, 2009 My suggestion is to just let it go. If you chase them, there is always the possibility of them counter suing you and creating a headache. It is one of the pitfalls of patient relations. Use it as a learning experience. Always have the patient pay before they leave. If you find yourself in a situation like this, the best you can do is periodically send them a bill. It is part and parcel of having a practice. As you get busier, you won't waste your qi with it and just move on. Good luck, and breathe. Respectfully, Douglas Knapp ________________________________ Sami Rank LAc <herbsnacupnxr Chinese Medicine Saturday, April 18, 2009 6:25:46 PM patient non-payment All of my patients pay on day of service, but recently one came in with a declined credit card. I've never heard from him since, despite 1 call and 2 letters over 6 weeks. What is the next step? what have you done in such circumstances? I've never had to go to a collection agency so not sure what kind of trouble that's worth, or just write it off? Can I legally charge interest and report to his credit? I don't have his ss#... how long do you wait? thanks for your input sami Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 19, 2009 Report Share Posted April 19, 2009 Hi. I liked some of the responses. In professions, we will do work for free, pro bono. I believe mostly everyone would pay their bills if they could, and the feeling of shame in not being to do so, makes them withdraw. Not out of disrespect, but out of respect. The tears hidden in the world's pillows are met at the needle point, and fall away. --- On Sat, 4/18/09, Sami Rank LAc <herbsnacupnxr wrote: Sami Rank LAc <herbsnacupnxr patient non-payment Chinese Medicine Saturday, April 18, 2009, 6:25 PM All of my patients pay on day of service, but recently one came in with a declined credit card. I've never heard from him since, despite 1 call and 2 letters over 6 weeks. What is the next step? what have you done in such circumstances? I've never had to go to a collection agency so not sure what kind of trouble that's worth, or just write it off? Can I legally charge interest and report to his credit? I don't have his ss#... how long do you wait? thanks for your input sami Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 19, 2009 Report Share Posted April 19, 2009 The patient could just be ashamed. Once they get their tax return back, they'll come in and pay for the previous and the current treatment. - " Douglas Knapp " <knappneedleman <Chinese Medicine > Saturday, April 18, 2009 11:10 PM Re: patient non-payment > My suggestion is to just let it go. If you chase them, there is always the > possibility of them counter suing you and creating a headache. It is one > of the pitfalls of patient relations. Use it as a learning experience. > Always have the patient pay before they leave. If you find yourself in a > situation like this, the best you can do is periodically send them a bill. > It is part and parcel of having a practice. As you get busier, you won't > waste your qi with it and just move on. Good luck, and breathe. > > Respectfully, > > Douglas Knapp > > > > > ________________________________ > Sami Rank LAc <herbsnacupnxr > Chinese Medicine > Saturday, April 18, 2009 6:25:46 PM > patient non-payment > > > > > > All of my patients pay on day of service, but recently one came in with a > declined credit card. I've never heard from him since, despite 1 call and > 2 letters over 6 weeks. What is the next step? what have you done in such > circumstances? I've never had to go to a collection agency so not sure > what kind of trouble that's worth, or just write it off? Can I legally > charge interest and report to his credit? I don't have his ss#... how long > do you wait? > thanks for your input > sami > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 19, 2009 Report Share Posted April 19, 2009 Sami: I agree here. If it is just a treatment or two, let it go. It is a sign of the times, I am finding. Things are getting a little brighter over here in the states, where I am in the Washington DC area. However, I am finding more people forgetting their checkbook. Some have taken the trouble to go get me cash, others ask what I want to do. If it will be more than a week that I see them, I ask them to mail it to me. These are regular clients, mind you. I also find I have gotten more returned checks recently. They gladly pay when all is said and done but there is a one to two month lag in straightening it out. Again, a sign of the times to me. I have had this situation you describe happen but rarely. I did just let it go. Perhaps you can write that off as a loss since you actually performed the service and didn't get paid. I am wondering if you can write off a no-show. I don't get many, but that is more aggravating than anything to me. Okay, my two cents. Most of my clients are great, so let's focus on that. Take Care, Anne Anne C. Crowley, L.Ac., Dipl.Ac. www.LaPlataAcupuncture.com - " mystir " <ykcul_ritsym " Traditional " <Chinese Medicine > Sunday, April 19, 2009 1:02:37 AM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern Re:  patient non-payment Hi Sami. To me, just to me, if it's wages for one or two treatments, just let it go. The time and trouble isn't worth chasing. --- On Sat, 4/18/09, Sami Rank LAc < herbsnacupnxr > wrote: Sami Rank LAc < herbsnacupnxr > patient non-payment Chinese Medicine Saturday, April 18, 2009, 6:25 PM All of my patients pay on day of service, but recently one came in with a declined credit card. I've never heard from him since, despite 1 call and 2 letters over 6 weeks. What is the next step? what have you done in such circumstances? I've never had to go to a collection agency so not sure what kind of trouble that's worth, or just write it off? Can I legally charge interest and report to his credit? I don't have his ss#... how long do you wait? thanks for your input sami Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 19, 2009 Report Share Posted April 19, 2009 Doug, just wondering on what grounds they could sue me as they are not paying for a service they signed an agreement to pay for? As my husband put it, one patient out of the many who do pay, is probably a good sign. Still, letting go is probably the lesson here, as well as not taking things personally... -sami Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 19, 2009 Report Share Posted April 19, 2009 I will assume the patient was probably embarrassed by the decline of his card and that he did not purposefully intend to rip you off for services. Let it go and put your energy into more positive endeavors. Send them a bill then forget about it. Also having them sign a " responsibility of payment " form on their initial appointment is a good thing. I have told patients that are having financial problems that we will assist them on a sliding scale if needed but they MUST talk to us about it instead of letting their health decline. I let them know that I am here to help them. ________________________________ Sami Rank LAc <herbsnacupnxr Chinese Medicine Sunday, April 19, 2009 10:25:29 AM Re: patient non-payment Doug, just wondering on what grounds they could sue me as they are not paying for a service they signed an agreement to pay for? As my husband put it, one patient out of the many who do pay, is probably a good sign. Still, letting go is probably the lesson here, as well as not taking things personally.. . -sami Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 19, 2009 Report Share Posted April 19, 2009 All someone has to do is make a claim whether it is true or not of impropriety on your point. A person of dubious ethics ie. not paying for services rendered after being billed a few times, run a higher incidence of countering with false claims if they feel that they are being harassed by " debt collection services " . I just personally think that my time and energy is better spent moving forward than bump into the one that will behave vindictively. ________________________________ Sami Rank LAc <herbsnacupnxr Chinese Medicine Sunday, April 19, 2009 10:25:29 AM Re: patient non-payment Doug, just wondering on what grounds they could sue me as they are not paying for a service they signed an agreement to pay for? As my husband put it, one patient out of the many who do pay, is probably a good sign. Still, letting go is probably the lesson here, as well as not taking things personally.. . -sami Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 20, 2009 Report Share Posted April 20, 2009 You can also consider reporting this person to the police. Often, local businesses receive alerts about folks who pass phony checks etc. I haven't explored this personally, so it may be that different police departments handle this differently. The amount due you is small enough that I wouldn't spend much time chasing it. I would spend more time instead, focusing on how I can ease my frustration (or whatever else you may be feeling) about it. Andrea Beth Traditional Oriental Medicine Happy Hours in the CALM Center 635 S. 10th St. Cottonwood, AZ 86326 (928) 274-1373 --- On Sat, 4/18/09, Douglas Knapp <knappneedleman wrote: Douglas Knapp <knappneedleman Re: patient non-payment Chinese Medicine Saturday, April 18, 2009, 11:10 PM My suggestion is to just let it go. If you chase them, there is always the possibility of them counter suing you and creating a headache. It is one of the pitfalls of patient relations. Use it as a learning experience. Always have the patient pay before they leave. If you find yourself in a situation like this, the best you can do is periodically send them a bill. It is part and parcel of having a practice. As you get busier, you won't waste your qi with it and just move on. Good luck, and breathe. Respectfully, Douglas Knapp ________________________________ Sami Rank LAc <herbsnacupnxr Chinese Medicine Saturday, April 18, 2009 6:25:46 PM TCM - patient non-payment All of my patients pay on day of service, but recently one came in with a declined credit card. I've never heard from him since, despite 1 call and 2 letters over 6 weeks. What is the next step? what have you done in such circumstances? I've never had to go to a collection agency so not sure what kind of trouble that's worth, or just write it off? Can I legally charge interest and report to his credit? I don't have his ss#... how long do you wait? thanks for your input sami Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 20, 2009 Report Share Posted April 20, 2009 I personally write 2 polite letters asking for payment, then I sent a letter indicating that I will send the account to collection, and then I do. Most states require that you inform a client before going to collection, the collection fees are steep, but you can charge the client IF you state in the release form that they are responsible for those charges. I have an insurance practice, and yes, sometimes the insurance declines and the patient often won't pay. I have almost $ 10,000 out that is more than 60 days old, and I am not intending to walk away from it. First, it sends the wrong message to the client. Second, I deliver professional services and deserve to be paid. Third, collection is not really a big deal. You just fill out the form the agency gives you and fax it to them. Almost all clients pay once they have gone to collection within 30 days. I am surprised to hear that people are worried about getting sued by a client for that. It never happened to me, neither is it that easy to sue someone. Regards, Angela Pfaffenberger, Ph.D. angelapfa www.InnerhealthSalem.com Phone: 503 364 3022 - Douglas Knapp Chinese Medicine Sunday, April 19, 2009 11:34 AM Re: patient non-payment All someone has to do is make a claim whether it is true or not of impropriety on your point. A person of dubious ethics ie. not paying for services rendered after being billed a few times, run a higher incidence of countering with false claims if they feel that they are being harassed by " debt collection services " . I just personally think that my time and energy is better spent moving forward than bump into the one that will behave vindictively. ________________________________ Sami Rank LAc <herbsnacupnxr Chinese Medicine Sunday, April 19, 2009 10:25:29 AM Re: patient non-payment Doug, just wondering on what grounds they could sue me as they are not paying for a service they signed an agreement to pay for? As my husband put it, one patient out of the many who do pay, is probably a good sign. Still, letting go is probably the lesson here, as well as not taking things personally.. . -sami Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 20, 2009 Report Share Posted April 20, 2009 angela, does the collection agency charge you, do you get the amount you asked for? how does that work? ex, if the bill was $100, where would you end up, assuming the patient pays the agency? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 20, 2009 Report Share Posted April 20, 2009 The agencies vary a bit but they usually charge about 50%. I use an initial disclosure form that just has a sentence in it saying " If you account goes to collection, a fee of $100 will be added to the charges. " When I send the collection warning letter, I say " You will be responsible for a collection charge of $100 in addition to the billed charges. You can avoid those charges by paying the balance on your account by.... " I also include the initial form where they are agreeing to the collection fees. Regards, Angela Pfaffenberger, Ph.D. angelapfa www.InnerhealthSalem.com Phone: 503 364 3022 - Sami Rank LAc Chinese Medicine Monday, April 20, 2009 12:01 PM Re: patient non-payment angela, does the collection agency charge you, do you get the amount you asked for? how does that work? ex, if the bill was $100, where would you end up, assuming the patient pays the agency? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 20, 2009 Report Share Posted April 20, 2009 I just finished renewing my malpractice insurance with AAC and checked all the yes and no boxes as expected....of course its in the envelope already....but, one of the question I think is....have you ever used a collection agency to collect from a patient. I have no idea what bearing it has on anything, but might be worth a call to them and see why it is on there. Personally in 8years I have had 4 people skip on their bill I think....I'll take the karma points rather than the energy of collections. I have had a few bounced checks and folks have always made good plus the bank charges. Be well, Bob Robert Linde, AP, RH Professional Herbalists Training Program Acupuncture & Herbal Therapies 901 Central Ave St. Petersburg, FL 33705 www.acuherbals.com 727-551-0857 --- On Mon, 4/20/09, Angela Pfaffenberger, PH.D. <angelapfa wrote: Angela Pfaffenberger, PH.D. <angelapfa Re: patient non-payment Chinese Medicine Monday, April 20, 2009, 3:19 PM The agencies vary a bit but they usually charge about 50%. I use an initial disclosure form that just has a sentence in it saying " If you account goes to collection, a fee of $100 will be added to the charges. " When I send the collection warning letter, I say " You will be responsible for a collection charge of $100 in addition to the billed charges. You can avoid those charges by paying the balance on your account by.... " I also include the initial form where they are agreeing to the collection fees. Regards, Angela Pfaffenberger, Ph.D. angelapfa (AT) comcast (DOT) net www.InnerhealthSale m.com Phone: 503 364 3022 - Sami Rank LAc Monday, April 20, 2009 12:01 PM Re: patient non-payment angela, does the collection agency charge you, do you get the amount you asked for? how does that work? ex, if the bill was $100, where would you end up, assuming the patient pays the agency? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 21, 2009 Report Share Posted April 21, 2009 Someone suggested the police-this won't work, as the police deal with crimes. He didn't pass a bad check, he just didn't pay you. This is a civil thing, not a criminal case. Also, I would skip collection agencies all together. Generally, I would say let it go. However, I had one occasion where a guy made three appointments and canceled them all after the time was past (this was after one initial, paid in full visit). I had a clear cancellation policy which said people were liable for not canceling without 24 hour notice. I had never enforced this before, but used it as a scare tactic to let people know to give me notice. I figured after 3 times in a row, I should send him a bill. He refused to pay. I sent him a copy of the form he signed and demand for payment, and he again refused. I sent him a final, very kind letter, explaining my time was valuable and that appointments could not be canceled after the fact. He left a voice message telling me to go to hell. I filed a case against him in small claims court for non-payment. I had him served the court papers, and he paid me within a day (including the filing fee). This is a hard-ass tactic, but it works. My case was extreme, and I would not have done this to anyone else. (Just so you know, collections companies are not effective and will take a cut if they are successful-the court will not). Call your small claims court and see what the procedures are; then decide of what this guy did warrants that or not. The latter part is entirely your call. David Chinese Medicine , " Angela Pfaffenberger, PH.D. " <angelapfa wrote: > > I personally write 2 polite letters asking for payment, then I sent a letter indicating that I will send the account to collection, and then I do. Most states require that you inform a client before going to collection, the collection fees are steep, but you can charge the client IF you state in the release form that they are responsible for those charges. I have an insurance practice, and yes, sometimes the insurance declines and the patient often won't pay. I have almost $ 10,000 out that is more than 60 days old, and I am not intending to walk away from it. First, it sends the wrong message to the client. Second, I deliver professional services and deserve to be paid. Third, collection is not really a big deal. You just fill out the form the agency gives you and fax it to them. Almost all clients pay once they have gone to collection within 30 days. > I am surprised to hear that people are worried about getting sued by a client for that. It never happened to me, neither is it that easy to sue someone. > > Regards, > Angela Pfaffenberger, Ph.D. > > angelapfa > > www.InnerhealthSalem.com > > Phone: 503 364 3022 > - > Douglas Knapp > Chinese Medicine > Sunday, April 19, 2009 11:34 AM > Re: patient non-payment > > > > > > All someone has to do is make a claim whether it is true or not of impropriety on your point. A person of dubious ethics ie. not paying for services rendered after being billed a few times, run a higher incidence of countering with false claims if they feel that they are being harassed by " debt collection services " . I just personally think that my time and energy is better spent moving forward than bump into the one that will behave vindictively. > > ________________________________ > Sami Rank LAc <herbsnacupnxr > Chinese Medicine > Sunday, April 19, 2009 10:25:29 AM > Re: patient non-payment > > Doug, just wondering on what grounds they could sue me as they are not paying for a service they signed an agreement to pay for? > > As my husband put it, one patient out of the many who do pay, is probably a good sign. Still, letting go is probably the lesson here, as well as not taking things personally.. . > -sami > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 21, 2009 Report Share Posted April 21, 2009 I was in a resturant when I read your post, and I laughed out loud hysterically. I will take the karma points too. Yeah, I have had one check never paid (in 7 yrs), and several no-shows that were asked to pay but didn't. I have some points too. Anne Anne C. Crowley, L.Ac., Dipl.Ac. www.LaPlataAcupuncture.com - " Bob Linde, AP, Herbalist " <boblindeherbalist " Traditional " <Chinese Medicine > Monday, April 20, 2009 3:51:25 PM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern Re:  patient non-payment I just finished renewing my malpractice insurance with AAC and checked all the yes and no boxes as expected....of course its in the envelope already....but, one of the question I think is....have you ever used a collection agency to collect from a patient. I have no idea what bearing it has on anything, but might be worth a call to them and see why it is on there. Personally in 8years I have had 4 people skip on their bill I think....I'll take the karma points rather than the energy of collections. I have had a few bounced checks and folks have always made good plus the bank charges. Be well, Bob Robert Linde, AP, RH Professional Herbalists Training Program Acupuncture & Herbal Therapies 901 Central Ave St. Petersburg, FL 33705 www.acuherbals.com 727-551-0857 --- On Mon, 4/20/09, Angela Pfaffenberger, PH.D. < angelapfa > wrote: Angela Pfaffenberger, PH.D. < angelapfa > Re: patient non-payment Chinese Medicine Monday, April 20, 2009, 3:19 PM The agencies vary a bit but they usually charge about 50%. I use an initial disclosure form that just has a sentence in it saying " If you account goes to collection, a fee of $100 will be added to the charges. " When I send the collection warning letter, I say " You will be responsible for a collection charge of $100 in addition to the billed charges. You can avoid those charges by paying the balance on your account by.... " I also include the initial form where they are agreeing to the collection fees. Regards, Angela Pfaffenberger, Ph.D. angelapfa (AT) comcast (DOT) net www.InnerhealthSale m.com Phone: 503 364 3022 - Sami Rank LAc Monday, April 20, 2009 12:01 PM Re: patient non-payment angela, does the collection agency charge you, do you get the amount you asked for? how does that work? ex, if the bill was $100, where would you end up, assuming the patient pays the agency? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 21, 2009 Report Share Posted April 21, 2009 That's a good post, thanks David. Hugo ________________________________ Hugo Ramiro http://middlemedicine.wordpress.com http://www.chinesemedicaltherapies.org ________________________________ d_munez <d_munez Chinese Medicine Tuesday, 21 April, 2009 4:26:56 Re: patient non-payment Someone suggested the police-this won't work, as the police deal with crimes. He didn't pass a bad check, he just didn't pay you. This is a civil thing, not a criminal case. Also, I would skip collection agencies all together. Generally, I would say let it go. However, I had one occasion where a guy made three appointments and canceled them all after the time was past (this was after one initial, paid in full visit). I had a clear cancellation policy which said people were liable for not canceling without 24 hour notice. I had never enforced this before, but used it as a scare tactic to let people know to give me notice.. I figured after 3 times in a row, I should send him a bill. He refused to pay. I sent him a copy of the form he signed and demand for payment, and he again refused. I sent him a final, very kind letter, explaining my time was valuable and that appointments could not be canceled after the fact. He left a voice message telling me to go to hell. I filed a case against him in small claims court for non-payment. I had him served the court papers, and he paid me within a day (including the filing fee). This is a hard-ass tactic, but it works. My case was extreme, and I would not have done this to anyone else. (Just so you know, collections companies are not effective and will take a cut if they are successful-the court will not). Call your small claims court and see what the procedures are; then decide of what this guy did warrants that or not. The latter part is entirely your call. David Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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