Guest guest Posted March 29, 2009 Report Share Posted March 29, 2009 I had a magazine article water down my words from acupuncture can help the pain of ...... The article was on menses, fertility, and menopause. Everytime I said acupuncture can help, they changed it to " may " help. I asked why because I had published in that magazine for years. They said because they get flack from the medical community that there is no hard evidence, and I assume they mean controlled studies. Well, I wanted to get mad at them, but read the whole article and decided it was saying more good than it was worth for me to alienate these folks. Okay, what I need is some good studies on acupuncture controlling pain. There is the Berman study (on knee pain) out of University of Maryland (I went there and live in Maryland). I just need to get a citation for it. Also recently there was one on acupuncture minimizing the pain of surgery if done before and after surgery. Was that back surgery? I seem to think it was general surgery. I guess I need studies that are large, controlled, positive that have hit the news. I know the Berman study fits this and that was specifically knee pain. Any suggestions would be welcomed. I am about to write an article on acupuncture's help in aging, including aches and pains. Anything along those lines would be welcomed. I am not a research-oriented person, but it appears I now have to be. I am much more empirical/ancedotal - my patients are experiencing this, therefore.. this. Anne Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 29, 2009 Report Share Posted March 29, 2009 Hi Anne, Here's a pdf of the Berman knee study: http://www.annals.org/cgi/reprint/141/12/901.pdf K On Sun, Mar 29, 2009 at 8:24 AM, Anne Crowley <anne.crowleywrote: > > > I had a magazine article water down my words from acupuncture can help the > pain of ...... The article was on menses, fertility, and menopause. > Everytime I said acupuncture can help, they changed it to " may " help. I > asked why because I had published in that magazine for years. They said > because they get flack from the medical community that there is no hard > evidence, and I assume they mean controlled studies. Well, I wanted to get > mad at them, but read the whole article and decided it was saying more good > than it was worth for me to alienate these folks. > > Okay, what I need is some good studies on acupuncture controlling pain. > > There is the Berman study (on knee pain) out of University of Maryland (I > went there and live in Maryland). I just need to get a citation for it. > > Also recently there was one on acupuncture minimizing the pain of surgery > if done before and after surgery. Was that back surgery? I seem to think > it was general surgery. > > I guess I need studies that are large, controlled, positive that have hit > the news. I know the Berman study fits this and that was specifically knee > pain. > > Any suggestions would be welcomed. I am about to write an article on > acupuncture's help in aging, including aches and pains. Anything along > those lines would be welcomed. > > I am not a research-oriented person, but it appears I now have to be. I am > much more empirical/ancedotal - my patients are experiencing this, > therefore.. this. > > Anne > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 29, 2009 Report Share Posted March 29, 2009 Thanks very much. Anne Anne C. Crowley, L.Ac., Dipl.Ac. www.LaPlataAcupuncture.com - " " <johnkokko " Traditional " <Chinese Medicine > Sunday, March 29, 2009 12:44:26 PM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern Re: Controlled Studies Hi Anne, Here's a pdf of the Berman knee study: http://www.annals.org/cgi/reprint/141/12/901.pdf K On Sun, Mar 29, 2009 at 8:24 AM, Anne Crowley < anne.crowley >wrote: > > > I had a magazine article water down my words from acupuncture can help the > pain of ...... The article was on menses, fertility, and menopause. > Everytime I said acupuncture can help, they changed it to " may " help. I > asked why because I had published in that magazine for years. They said > because they get flack from the medical community that there is no hard > evidence, and I assume they mean controlled studies. Well, I wanted to get > mad at them, but read the whole article and decided it was saying more good > than it was worth for me to alienate these folks. > > Okay, what I need is some good studies on acupuncture controlling pain. > > There is the Berman study (on knee pain) out of University of Maryland (I > went there and live in Maryland). I just need to get a citation for it. > > Also recently there was one on acupuncture minimizing the pain of surgery > if done before and after surgery. Was that back surgery? I seem to think > it was general surgery. > > I guess I need studies that are large, controlled, positive that have hit > the news. I know the Berman study fits this and that was specifically knee > pain. > > Any suggestions would be welcomed. I am about to write an article on > acupuncture's help in aging, including aches and pains. Anything along > those lines would be welcomed. > > I am not a research-oriented person, but it appears I now have to be. I am > much more empirical/ancedotal - my patients are experiencing this, > therefore.. this. > > Anne > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 30, 2009 Report Share Posted March 30, 2009 Hi all and Anne: --Anne- I am not a research-oriented person, but it appears I now have to be. I am much more empirical/ancedotal - my patients are experiencing this, therefore.. this. --- If we expect our profession to survive then we need to be able to navigate these waters. I don't think we need to buy into the idea that " controlled studies " (an oxymoron, really. Why that's so hard to see is a feature length article in and of itself) are needed to prove CM, but we do need to know when to reference and when to shoot down. As far as acupuncture and pain, we can't follow the skeptics too much, because they will say whatever they want for as long as they have their precious lung qi to burn up on stupidities. Pomeranz did definitive work proving, once and for all, done, over, period, that acupuncture causes significant, reliable, effective opioid release. Again, definitively, period, no more question. Opioid release equals effective pain killing. There should be no more discussion on this issue. Despite the fact that chemical pain-killers don't have all that good of a track record clinically, NO ONE is saying, oh do the pain killers actually work? BECAUSE everyone understands that the chemicals have an effect no matter what. If the chemicals don't " work " it is because there are confounding factors, not because the chemicals magically stop following hte laws of physics. Same thing for acupuncture. We need to GET this point very solidly, and then just start repeating it, over and over. Brute repitition will win the day on this point, because reasonableness is nowhere to be seen. We are losing the war by attrition based on repetition. We believe it when people cast doubt on us by saying, oh, well it doesn't _always_ work, and well, it's justa threshold effect, and it's not proven yet, and it's placebo, and there are better ways and so on AD INFINITUM. We need to stop believing the claptrap, we need to start DISBELIEVING the claptrap and then start educating ourselves on these realities so that the unreal scientism goofs lose their ability to manipulate us simply by saying stupid, confusing things. I feel your pain, Anne Hugo ________________________________ Hugo Ramiro http://middlemedicine.wordpress.com http://www.chinesemedicaltherapies.org Anne Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 30, 2009 Report Share Posted March 30, 2009 > Okay, what I need is some good studies on acupuncture controlling pain. > Anne Dear Anne, I've searched on PubMed and found these entries: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez?db=pubmed & cmd=search & term=acupuncture%2\ 0evidence However... the absolute need of any clear evidence - you can or may say to your article publisher - is for a single molecule, or at least for the combination of more molecules and not for traditional acupuncture. Single (patented!!!) drug is a dictator among all therapies, and not Acupuncture. Ciao, Stefano Marcelli MD Acupuncturist in Italy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 30, 2009 Report Share Posted March 30, 2009 Still in http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/ you can or may digit: " acupuncture systematic review " : Sameshiply, :-) Stefano Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 30, 2009 Report Share Posted March 30, 2009 Thanks Stefano, There's also www.cochrane.org for systematic reviews of studies. It's good to look at studies that have been repeated a few times to cut out the fudge factor. K On Mon, Mar 30, 2009 at 6:52 AM, Stefano Marcelli <smarcelliwrote: > Still in http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/ > you can or may digit: " acupuncture systematic review " : > > Sameshiply, :-) > Stefano > > > -- Turtle Island Integrative Health 3280 Adeline St. Berkeley CA 94703 510/ 387-8678 TCM Review director www.tcmreview.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 30, 2009 Report Share Posted March 30, 2009 Anne It customary to say may help even in approaches that have more " evidence " than acupuncture. This is not a put down but reflects how evidence is evaluated in WM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 30, 2009 Report Share Posted March 30, 2009 Marcus: I had no idea. Thanks for your clarification. I am feeling a bit paranoid these days with all these territorial invasions (as I describe them.) As one practitoner on my alumni site said, " There is a big difference between someone who dabbles in this art and the artisan. " Anne Anne C. Crowley, L.Ac., Dipl.Ac. www.LaPlataAcupuncture.com - " Alon Marcus " <alonmarcus " Traditional " <Chinese Medicine > Monday, March 30, 2009 12:16:48 PM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern  Re: Controlled Studies Anne It customary to say may help even in approaches that have more " evidence " than acupuncture. This is not a put down but reflects how evidence is evaluated in WM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 30, 2009 Report Share Posted March 30, 2009 Thanks Hugo and all who are responding!! Anne C. Crowley, L.Ac., Dipl.Ac. www.LaPlataAcupuncture.com - " Hugo Ramiro " <subincor " Traditional " <Chinese Medicine > Sunday, March 29, 2009 8:32:35 PM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern Re: Â Controlled Studies Hi all and Anne: --Anne- I am not a research-oriented person, but it appears I now have to be. I am much more empirical/ancedotal - my patients are experiencing this, therefore.. this. --- If we expect our profession to survive then we need to be able to navigate these waters. I don't think we need to buy into the idea that " controlled studies " (an oxymoron, really. Why that's so hard to see is a feature length article in and of itself) are needed to prove CM, but we do need to know when to reference and when to shoot down. As far as acupuncture and pain, we can't follow the skeptics too much, because they will say whatever they want for as long as they have their precious lung qi to burn up on stupidities. Pomeranz did definitive work proving, once and for all, done, over, period, that acupuncture causes significant, reliable, effective opioid release. Again, definitively, period, no more question. Opioid release equals effective pain killing. There should be no more discussion on this issue. Despite the fact that chemical pain-killers don't have all that good of a track record clinically, NO ONE is saying, oh do the pain killers actually work? BECAUSE everyone understands that the chemicals have an effect no matter what. If the chemicals don't " work " it is because there are confounding factors, not because the chemicals magically stop following hte laws of physics. Same thing for acupuncture. We need to GET this point very solidly, and then just start repeating it, over and over. Brute repitition will win the day on this point, because reasonableness is nowhere to be seen. We are losing the war by attrition based on repetition. We believe it when people cast doubt on us by saying, oh, well it doesn't _always_ work, and well, it's justa threshold effect, and it's not proven yet, and it's placebo, and there are better ways and so on AD INFINITUM. We need to stop believing the claptrap, we need to start DISBELIEVING the claptrap and then start educating ourselves on these realities so that the unreal scientism goofs lose their ability to manipulate us simply by saying stupid, confusing things. I feel your pain, Anne Hugo ________________________________ Hugo Ramiro http://middlemedicine.wordpress.com http://www.chinesemedicaltherapies.org Anne Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 31, 2009 Report Share Posted March 31, 2009 Chinese Medicine , Hugo Ramiro <subincor wrote: > > > --Anne- > I am not a research-oriented person, but it appears I now have to be. > I am much more empirical/ancedotal - my patients are experiencing this, therefore.. this. > --- Hi Anne, Hi everyone research-oriented folk need also to remember that at the 'bottom' of the hierarchy of grades of evidence - think of a pyramid - are all the case studies, observations, responses and reactions of patients and practitioners. This is research, and the practice of a science, at its most fundamental. The so-called gold-standard of clinical research- the meta analysis of random, controlled, double blind studies - is just the tip of the pyramid [or iceberg]. To make any time we might spend on 'research' meaningful, a simple way to start is to begin with one person/case study/condition, hop on to PubMed, put in a few key words and see what comes up. Following the links, and getting copies of the most useful papers also provides exsposure to lovely big lists of references, and enables us to see what others are up to. If nothing else, dipping in and out of abstracts and papers broadens our scope, keeps us thinking, and enables us to speak the language of medical dominance, without ever losing track of what we do best. I'd bet my lunch money today, that you'll be surprised by how many studies are out there, demonstrating the efficacy of acupuncture for all kinds of conditions. Have fun with it! Margi Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 31, 2009 Report Share Posted March 31, 2009 Hi Anne and all: The following link contains an interview with Pomeranz in which he personally outlines and summarises the impact and meaning of his work. I recommend that his words be memorised so that they can be regurgitated to devastating effect when the situation calls for it. http://medicalacupuncture.org/acu_info/interviews/pomeranzart.html Enjoy, Hugo ________________________________ Hugo Ramiro http://middlemedicine.wordpress.com http://www.chinesemedicaltherapies.org Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 31, 2009 Report Share Posted March 31, 2009 Because of genetic variability and because the cell surface receptors when bombarded over time with any drug will not work I do not see how there can be any research that could in any way be definitive to a population unless the test subjects are clones.....even then a little time would change those results in that population. what we are doing is seeing each patient as the individual they are, treating accordingly of which there is not other snowflake in the world exactly like the one you just worked with.......it is an oxymoron and unless they understand the new physics of healing understood with quantum physics, they don't even understand what they are asking for.A CEO from Pfizer within the last two years was on record as stating that AT BEST there were 35% of the population that would find the drugs worked for them....35% almost placebo effect! Overtime, the 35% would not keep having success with the drug due to cell surface downregulation of the receptors for that drug....so what they want is something they do not even understand. If that is the foundation of their belief..........that foundation will not hold. Sincerely, Patricia Jordan DVM,CVA,CTCVM & Herbology Chinese Medicine margi.macdonald Tue, 31 Mar 2009 00:53:08 +0000 Re: Controlled Studies Chinese Medicine , Hugo Ramiro <subincor wrote: > > > --Anne- > I am not a research-oriented person, but it appears I now have to be. > I am much more empirical/ancedotal - my patients are experiencing this, therefore.. this. > --- Hi Anne, Hi everyone research-oriented folk need also to remember that at the 'bottom' of the hierarchy of grades of evidence - think of a pyramid - are all the case studies, observations, responses and reactions of patients and practitioners. This is research, and the practice of a science, at its most fundamental. The so-called gold-standard of clinical research- the meta analysis of random, controlled, double blind studies - is just the tip of the pyramid [or iceberg]. To make any time we might spend on 'research' meaningful, a simple way to start is to begin with one person/case study/condition, hop on to PubMed, put in a few key words and see what comes up. Following the links, and getting copies of the most useful papers also provides exsposure to lovely big lists of references, and enables us to see what others are up to. If nothing else, dipping in and out of abstracts and papers broadens our scope, keeps us thinking, and enables us to speak the language of medical dominance, without ever losing track of what we do best. I'd bet my lunch money today, that you'll be surprised by how many studies are out there, demonstrating the efficacy of acupuncture for all kinds of conditions. Have fun with it! Margi _______________ Windows Live™ SkyDrive: Get 25 GB of free online storage. http://windowslive.com/online/skydrive?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_skydrive_032009 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 1, 2009 Report Share Posted April 1, 2009 It is interesting to see the latest ads for the new drug Abilify, which claims that 2/3 of people that take antidepressants are still reporting feeling somewhat depressed, so add this new drug on top of the SSRI's (with all of its potential side effects). I agree that drug individuation is absolutely necessary for higher quality biomedicine, and they have a lot to learn from Chinese medicine in this aspect. On Mar 31, 2009, at 1:59 PM, Patricia Jordan wrote: > > Because of genetic variability and because the cell surface > receptors when bombarded over time with any drug will not work I do > not see how there can be any research that could in any way be > definitive to a population unless the test subjects are > clones.....even then a little time would change those results in > that population. what we are doing is seeing each patient as the > individual they are, treating accordingly of which there is not > other snowflake in the world exactly like the one you just worked > with.......it is an oxymoron and unless they understand the new > physics of healing understood with quantum physics, they don't even > understand what they are asking for.A CEO from Pfizer within the > last two years was on record as stating that AT BEST there were 35% > of the population that would find the drugs worked for them....35% > almost placebo effect! Overtime, the 35% would not keep having > success with the drug due to cell surface downregulation of the > receptors for that drug....so what they want is something they do > not even understand. If that is the foundation of their > belief..........that foundation will not hold. > > Sincerely, Patricia Jordan DVM,CVA,CTCVM & Herbology > > > > > > Chinese Medicine > margi.macdonald > Tue, 31 Mar 2009 00:53:08 +0000 > Re: Controlled Studies > > > > > > Chinese Medicine , Hugo Ramiro > <subincor wrote: >> >> >> --Anne- >> I am not a research-oriented person, but it appears I now have to be. >> I am much more empirical/ancedotal - my patients are experiencing >> this, therefore.. this. >> --- > > Hi Anne, Hi everyone > research-oriented folk need also to remember that at the 'bottom' of > the hierarchy of grades of evidence - think of a pyramid - are all > the case studies, observations, responses and reactions of patients > and practitioners. This is research, and the practice of a science, > at its most fundamental. > The so-called gold-standard of clinical research- the meta analysis > of random, controlled, double blind studies - is just the tip of the > pyramid [or iceberg]. > To make any time we might spend on 'research' meaningful, a simple > way to start is to begin with one person/case study/condition, hop > on to PubMed, put in a few key words and see what comes up. > Following the links, and getting copies of the most useful papers > also provides exsposure to lovely big lists of references, and > enables us to see what others are up to. > If nothing else, dipping in and out of abstracts and papers broadens > our scope, keeps us thinking, and enables us to speak the language > of medical dominance, without ever losing track of what we do best. > I'd bet my lunch money today, that you'll be surprised by how many > studies are out there, demonstrating the efficacy of acupuncture for > all kinds of conditions. > Have fun with it! > Margi > > > _______________ > Windows Live™ SkyDrive: Get 25 GB of free online storage. > http://windowslive.com/online/skydrive?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_skydrive_032009 > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 1, 2009 Report Share Posted April 1, 2009 Hugo the problem is that his studies do not show specific effects. The endorphin story is none specific and account for weak and not long lasting analgesia. What we need to see is clinical research that shows a much larger effect than we have seen so far. 400 29th St. Suite 419 Oakland Ca 94609 alonmarcus Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 1, 2009 Report Share Posted April 1, 2009 Hi Alon, I don't disagree. Pomeranz was not trying to show specific effects. He was trying to prove (disprove) unequivocally that acupuncture created systemic, measurable, reliable effects in the body, and he did that. He did it so solidly that, as he says, there is more evidence for the endorphin hypothesis as one of the mechanisms through which acupuncture exerts effects on the human system than there is evidence for *any* mechanism of effect for the majority of drugs. His research, as you know, was about the basics of acupuncture: does it create a reliable systemic effect. It does. It is up to others to continue the work and see if the mechanisms for the specific (and large) effects that you mention can be elucidated. It is also high time for the skeptics who say that acupuncture has no evidence behind it to be quiet; this is my point. To bring the point home, there are many skeptics who would criticise your recent book for including acupuncture as a modality. They would claim that it is totally unproven, and that to put it forth as a viable modality, in conjunction with or as a substitute for conventional techniques, at this point in time is pretty much fraudulent. Of course, I disagree with that viewpoint and there are other skeptics who are more realistic, but I am mainly referring to the people who are likely not even aware of the significance of Pomeranz' research, and have not done their background reading properly. I fully agree that we need to see further clinical research that shows much larger effects. I hope that as our application fo acupuncture in research becomes less naive, we will begin to see clinical trials where the results are reflective what we all see in clinic, rather than being reflective of the trial methodologies. Hugo ________________________________ Hugo Ramiro http://middlemedicine.wordpress.com http://www.chinesemedicaltherapies.org ________________________________ alon marcus <alonmarcus Chinese Medicine Wednesday, 1 April, 2009 0:02:44 Re: Controlled Studies Hugo the problem is that his studies do not show specific effects. The endorphin story is none specific and account for weak and not long lasting analgesia. What we need to see is clinical research that shows a much larger effect than we have seen so far. 400 29th St. Suite 419 Oakland Ca 94609 www.integrativeheal thmedicine. com alonmarcus (AT) wans (DOT) net Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 1, 2009 Report Share Posted April 1, 2009 Here are a few articles I published on the matter of research designs appropriate to our medicine . . . Schulman D. The Unexpected Outcomes of Acupuncture. Case Reports in Support of Refocused Research Designs. Journal of Alternative and Complementary Medicine; November, 2004: Volume 10 (5); Pages 785-789. Schulman D. Gold Standard or Fool's Gold. Staking Our Own Claim on the Evidence-Based Medicine Map. North American Journal of Oriental Medicine. November, 2004: Volume 11(32); Pages 26-28. Schulman D. Acupuncture Research and the Pursuit of Equal Partner Status: Plausibility, Safety and Effectiveness Examined. The Journal of Chinese Medicine. June, 2005: Volume 78; Pages Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 1, 2009 Report Share Posted April 1, 2009 Hi, I'd love to read the articles that you published about acupuncture research. Could you send me copies? Thanks. We need some kind of a book, a list serve, etc where people with a research interest meet. I know about the Society for Acupuncture Research, but not any ongoing discussion. Would you be interested in being the co-moderator of a group? Is there a group out there that I don't know of? Regards, Angela Pfaffenberger, Ph.D. angelapfa www.InnerhealthSalem.com Phone: 503 364 3022 - Daniel Schulman Chinese Medicine Wednesday, April 01, 2009 1:18 PM Re: Controlled Studies Here are a few articles I published on the matter of research designs appropriate to our medicine . . . Schulman D. The Unexpected Outcomes of Acupuncture. Case Reports in Support of Refocused Research Designs. Journal of Alternative and Complementary Medicine; November, 2004: Volume 10 (5); Pages 785-789. Schulman D. Gold Standard or Fool's Gold. Staking Our Own Claim on the Evidence-Based Medicine Map. North American Journal of Oriental Medicine. November, 2004: Volume 11(32); Pages 26-28. Schulman D. Acupuncture Research and the Pursuit of Equal Partner Status: Plausibility, Safety and Effectiveness Examined. The Journal of Chinese Medicine. June, 2005: Volume 78; Pages Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 2, 2009 Report Share Posted April 2, 2009 Angela, The JACM article can be found here . . . http://www.chinesemedicinetools.com/article-sharing/research/unexpected-outcomes The JCM article is available at the Journal of site Regards Daniel Chinese Medicine , " Angela Pfaffenberger, PH.D. " <angelapfa wrote: > > Hi, I'd love to read the articles that you published about acupuncture research. Could you send me copies? Thanks. > We need some kind of a book, a list serve, etc where people with a research interest meet. I know about the Society for Acupuncture Research, but not any ongoing discussion. Would you be interested in being the co-moderator of a group? Is there a group out there that I don't know of? > > Regards, > Angela Pfaffenberger, Ph.D. > > angelapfa > > www.InnerhealthSalem.com > > Phone: 503 364 3022 > - > Daniel Schulman > Chinese Medicine > Wednesday, April 01, 2009 1:18 PM > Re: Controlled Studies > > > Here are a few articles I published on the matter of research designs appropriate to our medicine . . . > > Schulman D. The Unexpected Outcomes of Acupuncture. Case Reports in Support of Refocused Research Designs. Journal of Alternative and Complementary Medicine; November, 2004: Volume 10 (5); Pages 785-789. > > Schulman D. Gold Standard or Fool's Gold. Staking Our Own Claim on the Evidence-Based Medicine Map. North American Journal of Oriental Medicine. November, 2004: Volume 11(32); Pages 26-28. > > Schulman D. Acupuncture Research and the Pursuit of Equal Partner Status: Plausibility, Safety and Effectiveness Examined. The Journal of Chinese Medicine. June, 2005: Volume 78; Pages > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 7, 2009 Report Share Posted April 7, 2009 Did Pomerantz or anyone else do studies that show opioid relase without using electrical stimulation on the needles? I haven't found any studies yet. I have found that the different currencies on needles trigger different opioids, which muddies the water in terms of does elec stim produce that result without a needle, the same amount, less..... The nay-sayers will say its the stim without contrary evidence. Laura Cooley Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 8, 2009 Report Share Posted April 8, 2009 Hi Laura, no that's incorrect - de qi causes opioid (and other neurochemical) release (so does some e-stim). Pomeranz and others showed this and showed that it was the stimulation (not nec. electrical) of type ii and iii nerve fibres that did it. It is only necessary to cause de qi to provide enough stimulation for type ii and iii fibres in order to achieve acupuncture analgesia (Chiang 1973 " the essential correlate of analgesia is the De Qi sensation " ). Like I mentioned before, this is a non-issue at the present time. The idea you mention of skeptics saying " oh it's not acupuncture, it's the e-stim " is an example of that incredibly " innovative " way of thinking that a closed, self-referential mind engages in. If it's not this, then it's that, and if not that, then this. Simple formula, really. Nothing but obnoxious obstructionism, as far as I am concerned. Hugo ________________________________ Hugo Ramiro http://middlemedicine.wordpress.com http://www.chinesemedicaltherapies.org ________________________________ Laura Cooley <lauramon Chinese Medicine Tuesday, 7 April, 2009 12:41:37 Re: Controlled Studies Did Pomerantz or anyone else do studies that show opioid relase without using electrical stimulation on the needles? I haven't found any studies yet. I have found that the different currencies on needles trigger different opioids, which muddies the water in terms of does elec stim produce that result without a needle, the same amount, less..... The nay-sayers will say its the stim without contrary evidence. Laura Cooley Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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