was medicare, now medical acupuncturists

[Guest guest]

Mike,

 

The guy I'm referring to, who is doing training, is here in Arizona.  He is a

DC and a LAc, and teaches acupuncture to chiropractors primarily.

 

Here's a link for you, in case you haven't seen it.  It's for the American

Academy of Medical Acupuncture:  http://www.medicalacupuncture.org/

 

Here's a link to one of their publications.  Curiously, I found this locally in

pamphlet form, in a gastroenterologist's office: 

http://www.medicalacupuncture.org/acu_info/articles/aboutacupuncture.html

 

You're correct, that MDs DOs and DCs who are certified through their own boards

to practice acupuncture, are indeed not called " medical acupuncturists " .  They

are certified  to practice acupuncture, at least in my state, and their title

does not change from that of their original license.  The difference between a

certified acupuncturist and a licensed acupuncturist, at least to the public, is

negligible.  NDs actually have acupuncture as part of their standard of

practice here.  The term " medical acupuncture " arises from these certified

acupuncturists who have decided it is in their best interests to designate

themselves as different from, and better than, licensed acupuncturists.

 

Andrea Beth

 

Traditional Oriental Medicine

Happy Hours in the CALM Center

1770 E. Villa Drive, Suite 5

Cottonwood, AZ  86326

(928) 274-1373

 

 

--- On Mon, 3/9/09, mike Bowser <naturaldoc1 wrote:

mike Bowser <naturaldoc1

RE: medicaid covering acupuncture: pros & cons?

Chinese Traditional Medicine

Monday, March 9, 2009, 6:08 PM

 

Now the usage of the term " medical acupuncturist " is not recognized

as such when an MD/DO refers to a DC that uses acupuncture.

There are a couple of weekend programs that are taught be chiropractors in

which referal is made to themselves as " medical acupuncturists " . It

sounds like there is a battle over who can use this designation.

If you are referring to a dual licensed provider on the eastcoast, it appears

that he might be in a leadership position of a state acupuncture organization.

 

Michael W. Bowser, LAc

Chinese Medicine

 

Mon, 9 Mar 2009 11:55:42 -0700

RE: medicaid covering acupuncture: pros & cons?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Unfortunately, Mike, one of the main educators of " medical

acupuncturists " is himself, both a DC and a LAc. This poses a real pickle.

 

 

 

Andrea Beth

 

 

 

Traditional Oriental Medicine

 

Happy Hours in the CALM Center

 

1770 E. Villa Drive, Suite 5

 

Cottonwood, AZ 86326

 

(928) 274-1373

 

 

 

--- On Mon, 3/9/09, mike Bowser <naturaldoc1 wrote:

 

mike Bowser <naturaldoc1

 

RE: medicaid covering acupuncture: pros & cons?

 

Chinese Traditional Medicine

 

Monday, March 9, 2009, 10:29 AM

 

 

 

Andrea,

 

 

 

I have heard similar positions on this topic. The real problem is that of

 

legal acupuncture usage and that comes from the states (at least HI has made

 

licensure by one route only and that is through our schools, NCCAOM exam, state

 

application).

 

 

 

Getting us coverage in these programs will allow us to better compete and allow

 

for more access. One big problem we still have is when schools appear to be in

 

support of the " medical acupunturist " existing and showing support

for

 

them over us. That is where the real problem comes from. I am unsure if they

 

realize that they are undermining us and limiting their own future.

 

 

 

Michael W. Bowser, LAc

 

 

 

 

 

Chinese Medicine

 

 

 

Mon, 9 Mar 2009 08:48:01 -0700

 

RE: medicaid covering acupuncture: pros & cons?

 

 

 

Mike,

 

 

 

Perhaps this is a regional or state problem. Where I live (Arizona), there is

 

a plethora of " medical acupuncturists " which confuse the public into

 

believing " acupuncture doesn't work " with their ineffective

 

treatments, while their publicity leads the public to believe their medical

 

background makes them the superior practitioners, and patients believe this.

So

 

it translates as follows: " Wow! If my doctor couldn't help me with

 

acupuncture, and I know my doctor is highly trained because he/she is, after

 

all, a doctor, then I guess it doesn't make any sense for me to explore

 

acupuncture with a licensed acupuncturist... " I have discussed this on

 

these lists before, so I won't go into greater detail.

 

 

 

While this trend, of acupuncture being co-opted by the medical profession, may

 

not be on any healthcare reform agenda, it is definitely happening. Many

health

 

insurance companies will not cover acupuncture unless it is provided by a

 

" doctor " (MD, DO, ND, DC), and I know there are efforts afoot in

 

various states to try to change this, but there are also efforts in the

 

" medical " community to resist this change. There isn't any

 

shortage of acupuncturists where I live, but rather there is definitely

 

competition between LAcs and " certified medical acupuncturists " , for

a

 

small number of patients seeking acupuncture. Neither was there any shortage

of

 

LAcs in San Diego when I was there. In fact, I don't know of any

 

acupuncturists complaining that they are overwhelmed by the number of patients

 

who want to see them, do you? Where is this shortage of acupuncturists?

 

I'd like to be practicing there!

 

 

 

Andrea Beth

 

 

 

Traditional Oriental Medicine

 

Happy Hours in the CALM Center

 

1770 E. Villa Drive, Suite 5

 

Cottonwood, AZ 86326

 

(928) 274-1373

 

 

 

--- On Sat, 3/7/09, mike Bowser <naturaldoc1 wrote:

 

mike Bowser <naturaldoc1

 

RE: medicaid covering acupuncture: pros & cons?

 

Chinese Traditional Medicine

 

Saturday, March 7, 2009, 5:06 PM

 

 

 

I would disagree with this statement and ask us to consider why is that we

 

might want to be left outside of the healthcare arena? I would like to know

 

where is it that this idea is coming from (fear of change, avoidance of

 

conflict, fact or what)? As there has been no plan in the healthcare reform

 

that I have seen that attempts this, I must wonder why do we bur into it? Do we

 

want our profession to remain small? I only ask because we constantly hear

 

about the shortage of practitioners to give treatments.

 

 

 

Michael W. Bowser, LAc

 

Chinese Medicine

 

 

 

Sat, 7 Mar 2009 12:31:43 -0800

 

Re: medicaid covering acupuncture: pros & cons?

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Andrea,

I am unsure that his claim is close to realistic as I have not met anyone that

has attended his program and in MN, we also face a similar challenge of reduced

training for DC usage. The local DC college also flies in another DC/LAc from

the eastcoast to teach courses that allow chiro students the op to sit for

acupuncture examinations for future licensure. I have spoken with several DC

classmates and encouraged them to pursue full acupuncture training. Some will

ask me about my training but of the two local programs, there are none that I

can recommend and so I usually inform them of the deficits in knowledge and the

lack of supervised clinical training. They can then make up their own minds.

Many will still take these courses as they see it as another therapy.

Did you mean the website, http://www.iama.edu/, for the AZ chiro that is

teaching acupuncture? I have known about his usage of the term medical

acupuncture and his claim to it as well. I was simply pointing that we now have

two different groups the IAMA, which includes MD, DO, DC, ND and even attempted

to attract LAc for continuing education and the AAMA. The AAMA only thinks that

MD and DO should be able to use this terminology and yet there is no legal

meaning of what this is and the training so abbreviated and lacking. More about

marketing and less about substance. It is my hope that our profession will see

this missing area and start to fill it with ops from our profession. As we are

being invited to work in hospitals and other clinics, we can overcome this

marketing ploy and patients will start to see the differences if we act and also

educate the public, change laws, etc.

 

Michael W. Bowser, LAc

Chinese Medicine

 

Mon, 9 Mar 2009 18:28:22 -0700

was medicare, now medical acupuncturists

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Mike,

 

 

 

The guy I'm referring to, who is doing training, is here in Arizona. He is a DC

and a LAc, and teaches acupuncture to chiropractors primarily.

 

 

 

Here's a link for you, in case you haven't seen it. It's for the American

Academy of Medical Acupuncture: http://www.medicalacupuncture.org/

 

 

 

Here's a link to one of their publications. Curiously, I found this locally in

pamphlet form, in a gastroenterologist's office:

http://www.medicalacupuncture.org/acu_info/articles/aboutacupuncture.html

 

 

 

You're correct, that MDs DOs and DCs who are certified through their own boards

to practice acupuncture, are indeed not called " medical acupuncturists " . They

are certified to practice acupuncture, at least in my state, and their title

does not change from that of their original license. The difference between a

certified acupuncturist and a licensed acupuncturist, at least to the public, is

negligible. NDs actually have acupuncture as part of their standard of practice

here. The term " medical acupuncture " arises from these certified acupuncturists

who have decided it is in their best interests to designate themselves as

different from, and better than, licensed acupuncturists.

 

 

 

Andrea Beth

 

 

 

Traditional Oriental Medicine

 

Happy Hours in the CALM Center

 

1770 E. Villa Drive, Suite 5

 

Cottonwood, AZ 86326

 

(928) 274-1373

 

 

 

--- On Mon, 3/9/09, mike Bowser <naturaldoc1 wrote:

 

mike Bowser <naturaldoc1

 

RE: medicaid covering acupuncture: pros & cons?

 

Chinese Traditional Medicine

 

Monday, March 9, 2009, 6:08 PM

 

 

 

Now the usage of the term " medical acupuncturist " is not recognized

 

as such when an MD/DO refers to a DC that uses acupuncture.

 

There are a couple of weekend programs that are taught be chiropractors in

 

which referal is made to themselves as " medical acupuncturists " . It

 

sounds like there is a battle over who can use this designation.

 

If you are referring to a dual licensed provider on the eastcoast, it appears

 

that he might be in a leadership position of a state acupuncture organization.

 

 

 

Michael W. Bowser, LAc

 

Chinese Medicine

 

 

 

Mon, 9 Mar 2009 11:55:42 -0700

 

RE: medicaid covering acupuncture: pros & cons?

 

 

 

Unfortunately, Mike, one of the main educators of " medical

 

acupuncturists " is himself, both a DC and a LAc. This poses a real pickle.

 

 

 

Andrea Beth

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Traditional Oriental Medicine

 

 

 

Happy Hours in the CALM Center

 

 

 

1770 E. Villa Drive, Suite 5

 

 

 

Cottonwood, AZ 86326

 

 

 

(928) 274-1373

 

 

 

--- On Mon, 3/9/09, mike Bowser <naturaldoc1 wrote:

 

 

 

mike Bowser <naturaldoc1

 

 

 

RE: medicaid covering acupuncture: pros & cons?

 

 

 

Chinese Traditional Medicine

 

 

 

Monday, March 9, 2009, 10:29 AM

 

 

 

Andrea,

 

 

 

I have heard similar positions on this topic. The real problem is that of

 

 

 

legal acupuncture usage and that comes from the states (at least HI has made

 

 

 

licensure by one route only and that is through our schools, NCCAOM exam, state

 

 

 

application).

 

 

 

Getting us coverage in these programs will allow us to better compete and allow

 

 

 

for more access. One big problem we still have is when schools appear to be in

 

 

 

support of the " medical acupunturist " existing and showing support

 

for

 

 

 

them over us. That is where the real problem comes from. I am unsure if they

 

 

 

realize that they are undermining us and limiting their own future.

 

 

 

Michael W. Bowser, LAc

 

 

 

Chinese Medicine

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Mon, 9 Mar 2009 08:48:01 -0700

 

 

 

RE: medicaid covering acupuncture: pros & cons?

 

 

 

Mike,

 

 

 

Perhaps this is a regional or state problem. Where I live (Arizona), there is

 

 

 

a plethora of " medical acupuncturists " which confuse the public into

 

 

 

believing " acupuncture doesn't work " with their ineffective

 

 

 

treatments, while their publicity leads the public to believe their medical

 

 

 

background makes them the superior practitioners, and patients believe this.

 

So

 

 

 

it translates as follows: " Wow! If my doctor couldn't help me with

 

 

 

acupuncture, and I know my doctor is highly trained because he/she is, after

 

 

 

all, a doctor, then I guess it doesn't make any sense for me to explore

 

 

 

acupuncture with a licensed acupuncturist... " I have discussed this on

 

 

 

these lists before, so I won't go into greater detail.

 

 

 

While this trend, of acupuncture being co-opted by the medical profession, may

 

 

 

not be on any healthcare reform agenda, it is definitely happening. Many

 

health

 

 

 

insurance companies will not cover acupuncture unless it is provided by a

 

 

 

" doctor " (MD, DO, ND, DC), and I know there are efforts afoot in

 

 

 

various states to try to change this, but there are also efforts in the

 

 

 

" medical " community to resist this change. There isn't any

 

 

 

shortage of acupuncturists where I live, but rather there is definitely

 

 

 

competition between LAcs and " certified medical acupuncturists " , for

 

a

 

 

 

small number of patients seeking acupuncture. Neither was there any shortage

 

of

 

 

 

LAcs in San Diego when I was there. In fact, I don't know of any

 

 

 

acupuncturists complaining that they are overwhelmed by the number of patients

 

 

 

who want to see them, do you? Where is this shortage of acupuncturists?

 

 

 

I'd like to be practicing there!

 

 

 

Andrea Beth

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Traditional Oriental Medicine

 

 

 

Happy Hours in the CALM Center

 

 

 

1770 E. Villa Drive, Suite 5

 

 

 

Cottonwood, AZ 86326

 

 

 

(928) 274-1373

 

 

 

--- On Sat, 3/7/09, mike Bowser <naturaldoc1 wrote:

 

 

 

mike Bowser <naturaldoc1

 

 

 

RE: medicaid covering acupuncture: pros & cons?

 

 

 

Chinese Traditional Medicine

 

 

 

Saturday, March 7, 2009, 5:06 PM

 

 

 

I would disagree with this statement and ask us to consider why is that we

 

 

 

might want to be left outside of the healthcare arena? I would like to know

 

 

 

where is it that this idea is coming from (fear of change, avoidance of

 

 

 

conflict, fact or what)? As there has been no plan in the healthcare reform

 

 

 

that I have seen that attempts this, I must wonder why do we bur into it? Do we

 

 

 

want our profession to remain small? I only ask because we constantly hear

 

 

 

about the shortage of practitioners to give treatments.

 

 

 

Michael W. Bowser, LAc

 

 

 

Chinese Medicine

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Sat, 7 Mar 2009 12:31:43 -0800

 

 

 

Re: medicaid covering acupuncture: pros & cons?

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Yes, Mike. 

 

That website belongs to the  DC/LAc I am referring to.  If you think the term

" medical acupuncture " is not catching on, take a look at this job listing - it

is one of many I have seen that are using the term (the emphasis is mine):

 

 

 

 

 

Description

 

salary: 130000 to 230000

 

education: Medical Doctor

 

jobtype: Full Time

 

PRACTICE

INFORMATION:Type of practice:# of physicians in Group: 53-physician

multispecialty clinic which is physician ownedSpecialties: 3 OB/Gyns, 8

family physicians, 3 general surgeons, 13 internists, 2 oncologists, 1

orthopedic surgeon, 2 ENTs, 4 pediatricians, 2 urologists, neurology,

physiatrist and pain management along with a medical acupuncturist. The

group has satellite Clinics in Gold Beach, Bandon, Coquille, &

Myrtle Point

Traditional Oriental Medicine

Happy Hours in the CALM Center

1770 E. Villa Drive, Suite 5

Cottonwood, AZ  86326

(928) 274-1373

 

 

--- On Sun, 3/15/09, mike Bowser <naturaldoc1 wrote:

mike Bowser <naturaldoc1

RE: was medicare, now medical acupuncturists

Chinese Traditional Medicine

Sunday, March 15, 2009, 10:42 AM

 

Andrea,

I am unsure that his claim is close to realistic as I have not met anyone that

has attended his program and in MN, we also face a similar challenge of reduced

training for DC usage. The local DC college also flies in another DC/LAc from

the eastcoast to teach courses that allow chiro students the op to sit for

acupuncture examinations for future licensure. I have spoken with several DC

classmates and encouraged them to pursue full acupuncture training. Some will

ask me about my training but of the two local programs, there are none that I

can recommend and so I usually inform them of the deficits in knowledge and the

lack of supervised clinical training. They can then make up their own minds.

Many will still take these courses as they see it as another therapy.

Did you mean the website, http://www.iama.edu/, for the AZ chiro that is

teaching acupuncture? I have known about his usage of the term medical

acupuncture and his claim to it as well. I was simply pointing that we now have

two different groups the IAMA, which includes MD, DO, DC, ND and even attempted

to attract LAc for continuing education and the AAMA. The AAMA only thinks that

MD and DO should be able to use this terminology and yet there is no legal

meaning of what this is and the training so abbreviated and lacking. More about

marketing and less about substance. It is my hope that our profession will see

this missing area and start to fill it with ops from our profession. As we are

being invited to work in hospitals and other clinics, we can overcome this

marketing ploy and patients will start to see the differences if we act and also

educate the public, change laws, etc.

 

Michael W. Bowser, LAc

Chinese Medicine

 

Mon, 9 Mar 2009 18:28:22 -0700

was medicare, now medical acupuncturists

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Mike,

 

 

 

The guy I'm referring to, who is doing training, is here in Arizona. He is

a DC and a LAc, and teaches acupuncture to chiropractors primarily.

 

 

 

Here's a link for you, in case you haven't seen it. It's for the

American Academy of Medical Acupuncture: http://www.medicalacupuncture.org/

 

 

 

Here's a link to one of their publications. Curiously, I found this

locally in pamphlet form, in a gastroenterologist's office:

http://www.medicalacupuncture.org/acu_info/articles/aboutacupuncture.html

 

 

 

You're correct, that MDs DOs and DCs who are certified through their own

boards to practice acupuncture, are indeed not called " medical

acupuncturists " . They are certified to practice acupuncture, at least in

my state, and their title does not change from that of their original license.

The difference between a certified acupuncturist and a licensed acupuncturist,

at least to the public, is negligible. NDs actually have acupuncture as part of

their standard of practice here. The term " medical acupuncture "

arises from these certified acupuncturists who have decided it is in their best

interests to designate themselves as different from, and better than, licensed

acupuncturists.

 

 

 

Andrea Beth

 

 

 

Traditional Oriental Medicine

 

Happy Hours in the CALM Center

 

1770 E. Villa Drive, Suite 5

 

Cottonwood, AZ 86326

 

(928) 274-1373

 

 

 

--- On Mon, 3/9/09, mike Bowser <naturaldoc1 wrote:

 

mike Bowser <naturaldoc1

 

RE: medicaid covering acupuncture: pros & cons?

 

Chinese Traditional Medicine

 

Monday, March 9, 2009, 6:08 PM

 

 

 

Now the usage of the term " medical acupuncturist " is not recognized

 

as such when an MD/DO refers to a DC that uses acupuncture.

 

There are a couple of weekend programs that are taught be chiropractors in

 

which referal is made to themselves as " medical acupuncturists " . It

 

sounds like there is a battle over who can use this designation.

 

If you are referring to a dual licensed provider on the eastcoast, it appears

 

that he might be in a leadership position of a state acupuncture organization.

 

 

 

 

Michael W. Bowser, LAc

 

Chinese Medicine

 

 

 

Mon, 9 Mar 2009 11:55:42 -0700

 

RE: medicaid covering acupuncture: pros & cons?

 

 

 

Unfortunately, Mike, one of the main educators of " medical

 

acupuncturists " is himself, both a DC and a LAc. This poses a real

pickle.

 

 

 

Andrea Beth

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Traditional Oriental Medicine

 

 

 

Happy Hours in the CALM Center

 

 

 

1770 E. Villa Drive, Suite 5

 

 

 

Cottonwood, AZ 86326

 

 

 

(928) 274-1373

 

 

 

--- On Mon, 3/9/09, mike Bowser <naturaldoc1 wrote:

 

 

 

mike Bowser <naturaldoc1

 

 

 

RE: medicaid covering acupuncture: pros & cons?

 

 

 

Chinese Traditional Medicine

 

 

 

Monday, March 9, 2009, 10:29 AM

 

 

 

Andrea,

 

 

 

I have heard similar positions on this topic. The real problem is that of

 

 

 

legal acupuncture usage and that comes from the states (at least HI has made

 

 

 

licensure by one route only and that is through our schools, NCCAOM exam, state

 

 

 

application).

 

 

 

Getting us coverage in these programs will allow us to better compete and allow

 

 

 

for more access. One big problem we still have is when schools appear to be in

 

 

 

support of the " medical acupunturist " existing and showing support

 

for

 

 

 

them over us. That is where the real problem comes from. I am unsure if they

 

 

 

realize that they are undermining us and limiting their own future.

 

 

 

Michael W. Bowser, LAc

 

 

 

Chinese Medicine

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Mon, 9 Mar 2009 08:48:01 -0700

 

 

 

RE: medicaid covering acupuncture: pros & cons?

 

 

 

Mike,

 

 

 

Perhaps this is a regional or state problem. Where I live (Arizona), there is

 

 

 

a plethora of " medical acupuncturists " which confuse the public into

 

 

 

believing " acupuncture doesn't work " with their ineffective

 

 

 

treatments, while their publicity leads the public to believe their medical

 

 

 

background makes them the superior practitioners, and patients believe this.

 

So

 

 

 

it translates as follows: " Wow! If my doctor couldn't help me with

 

 

 

acupuncture, and I know my doctor is highly trained because he/she is, after

 

 

 

all, a doctor, then I guess it doesn't make any sense for me to explore

 

 

 

acupuncture with a licensed acupuncturist... " I have discussed this on

 

 

 

these lists before, so I won't go into greater detail.

 

 

 

While this trend, of acupuncture being co-opted by the medical profession, may

 

 

 

not be on any healthcare reform agenda, it is definitely happening. Many

 

health

 

 

 

insurance companies will not cover acupuncture unless it is provided by a

 

 

 

" doctor " (MD, DO, ND, DC), and I know there are efforts afoot in

 

 

 

various states to try to change this, but there are also efforts in the

 

 

 

" medical " community to resist this change. There isn't any

 

 

 

shortage of acupuncturists where I live, but rather there is definitely

 

 

 

competition between LAcs and " certified medical acupuncturists " , for

 

a

 

 

 

small number of patients seeking acupuncture. Neither was there any shortage

 

of

 

 

 

LAcs in San Diego when I was there. In fact, I don't know of any

 

 

 

acupuncturists complaining that they are overwhelmed by the number of patients

 

 

 

who want to see them, do you? Where is this shortage of acupuncturists?

 

 

 

I'd like to be practicing there!

 

 

 

Andrea Beth

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Traditional Oriental Medicine

 

 

 

Happy Hours in the CALM Center

 

 

 

1770 E. Villa Drive, Suite 5

 

 

 

Cottonwood, AZ 86326

 

 

 

(928) 274-1373

 

 

 

--- On Sat, 3/7/09, mike Bowser <naturaldoc1 wrote:

 

 

 

mike Bowser <naturaldoc1

 

 

 

RE: medicaid covering acupuncture: pros & cons?

 

 

 

Chinese Traditional Medicine

 

 

 

Saturday, March 7, 2009, 5:06 PM

 

 

 

I would disagree with this statement and ask us to consider why is that we

 

 

 

might want to be left outside of the healthcare arena? I would like to know

 

 

 

where is it that this idea is coming from (fear of change, avoidance of

 

 

 

conflict, fact or what)? As there has been no plan in the healthcare reform

 

 

 

that I have seen that attempts this, I must wonder why do we bur into it? Do we

 

 

 

want our profession to remain small? I only ask because we constantly hear

 

 

 

about the shortage of practitioners to give treatments.

 

 

 

Michael W. Bowser, LAc

 

 

 

Chinese Medicine

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Sat, 7 Mar 2009 12:31:43 -0800

 

 

 

Re: medicaid covering acupuncture: pros & cons?