Guest guest Posted March 13, 2009 Report Share Posted March 13, 2009 Has anybody who is in a split situation, split part of their herb sales as well? I posted awhile back about a possible job, well she has decided she wants to do a split 50/50, she provides all supplies, one room only, and wants 20% of herb profits. I have to drive an hour there, two hours round trip, pay for childcare for 3 children, she has only had this office 2 months. So I have no guarantee of how busy it will be. I could essentially drive there for one patient, they no show, and have to drive home, paying out 2 hours of childcare with no income. She is interested in spa services and workers comp. Im not interested in spa. But I'd like some extra cash, you know? Im really leaning against this, and I just can't imagine giving her part of the herbs, seems wrong in a way, so Im curious as to others opinions? Julie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 13, 2009 Report Share Posted March 13, 2009 The problem I am seeing is that after you give up 50%, you won't have enough left for any advertising, and you depend on her sending you clients or promoting your services. If she doesn't come through, you are screwed. I would ask for a minimum payment from her every time you show up, essentially you are on call without compensation, and who can afford that? Or ask if you can pay rent. Rooms in professional suites are more than plain offices, but you can offer to supply everything else. I do workers comp and find that you REALLY need to know your billing, and put in a lot of time to collect, including sending progress notes every time. However, in my state, Oregon, it's top dollars, about 200 for the intake and over 100 for every visit. The workers comp people have a fee schedule that they usually will send you. I would not worry about the herbs, it's not that much profit. If the client pays $12 for the herbs, only 6 is profit, if you give her 3, now only every second client needs herbs, that is $1.50 per visit. The office just doesn't sound like a great match for you, follow your guts and good luck. Regards, Angela Pfaffenberger, Ph.D. angelapfa www.InnerhealthSalem.com Phone: 503 364 3022 - Julie Ormonde Chinese Medicine Thursday, March 12, 2009 5:12 PM Splitting Herbs (money question) Has anybody who is in a split situation, split part of their herb sales as well? I posted awhile back about a possible job, well she has decided she wants to do a split 50/50, she provides all supplies, one room only, and wants 20% of herb profits. I have to drive an hour there, two hours round trip, pay for childcare for 3 children, she has only had this office 2 months. So I have no guarantee of how busy it will be. I could essentially drive there for one patient, they no show, and have to drive home, paying out 2 hours of childcare with no income. She is interested in spa services and workers comp. Im not interested in spa. But I'd like some extra cash, you know? Im really leaning against this, and I just can't imagine giving her part of the herbs, seems wrong in a way, so Im curious as to others opinions? Julie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 13, 2009 Report Share Posted March 13, 2009 This is a tough one Julie. 50/50 is okay as long as many things are provided, including the patient. She should have some idea of patient load, so that you are not driving that distance for less than 3 patients, ideally 8 patients. Why only one room? If you had two, could maximize your income in the time you are there. The 20 % on herbs is a tough question. I am thinking of hiring an associate in the near future. I thought I would order all the herbs, make recommendations, since many of the students out of my school don't study them,and then they would get 20% of the sale. This is typical in a MLM deal (I hate to utter the words - they have not worked for me). So I mean my associate would get 20% of the 100% profit I would get. Maybe someone else is doing this and can say what they think is fair. When I hire an associate, they will be doing a 1hr plus drive to my offfice. Most practitioners are located that far away from me. I would have 2 rooms and would make sure the patient load was there. You can't guarantee, but you can build the demand so there is a reasonable patient load. However, it does sound like you and this practitioner may not be on the same page. I can see the one room with a long facial treamtent, and charging accordingly. The workman's comp. Wow, what different patient groups. Anyway, it seems like you are not too comfortable with this practitioner and her goals - so definitely listen to that. Anne C. Crowley, L.Ac., Dipl.Ac. www.LaPlataAcupuncture.com - " Julie Ormonde " <cariadanam " Traditional " <Chinese Medicine > Thursday, March 12, 2009 8:12:17 PM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern  Splitting Herbs (money question) Has anybody who is in a split situation, split part of their herb sales as well? I posted awhile back about a possible job, well she has decided she wants to do a split 50/50, she provides all supplies, one room only, and wants 20% of herb profits. I have to drive an hour there, two hours round trip, pay for childcare for 3 children, she has only had this office 2 months. So I have no guarantee of how busy it will be. I could essentially drive there for one patient, they no show, and have to drive home, paying out 2 hours of childcare with no income. She is interested in spa services and workers comp. Im not interested in spa. But I'd like some extra cash, you know? Im really leaning against this, and I just can't imagine giving her part of the herbs, seems wrong in a way, so Im curious as to others opinions? Julie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 13, 2009 Report Share Posted March 13, 2009 I think that this issue is more about the legal and tax issues then it is simply a matter of business model. Here are the reasons why. While we do not know the full details of the proposed arrangement, I have not read anyone asking about employee/independent contractor status, state acupuncture laws, federal law, IRS criteria for taxation, etc. All of these are equally as important. I have discussed many of these issues with an attorney that is also a chiropractor as the chiropractic laws seem applicable in many cases to acupuncturists as well. First, we should know which state this person is in and what the acupuncture and other applicable state laws say. Next, we should consider that deviation from the norm as far as creating business models does not bode well in court. Most of us rent from a landlord (fixed rate) or are employees and simply get a paycheck. If this is an attempt to avoid paying taxes, know that the IRS will get their money, one way or another. I have asked this practitioner to look at Dr. Kevin McNamee's (DC/LAc) article in the archives at www.acupuncturetoday.com as it nicely shows you which category you are in at a glance and reminds us that we cannot pick and choose from each side but must stay in one column or the other for legitimacy. A % may be justified, as it is in chiropractic practice, when one becomes an associate. A contract should be drawn up detailing the particulars. The other issue is known as " fee-splitting " and is illegal in most states. If this is about trying to use a % in lieu of rent and you are trying to keep your overhead low, then consider rental by the day or even hourly. There is no reason to pay for a month when you only need a small of amount of time until you need more space. The money for your rent should not be tied directly to the patients fee as it is in a % rental (fee splitting) situation. Again, we need to defer this to the acupuncture licensing board and/or attorney general's office for determination. Be careful if you are creating something that is questionable from the outside. In the end, it sounds like an attorney may be needed to create a legit contract for employment and clarify what is acceptable. Business law does not trump medical law. It also sounds like there is a rather large area of disagreement over niche market for the practice. I would walk away from this one, quickly. Michael W. Bowser, LAc Chinese Medicine anne.crowley Fri, 13 Mar 2009 02:15:05 +0000 Re: Splitting Herbs (money question) This is a tough one Julie. 50/50 is okay as long as many things are provided, including the patient. She should have some idea of patient load, so that you are not driving that distance for less than 3 patients, ideally 8 patients. Why only one room? If you had two, could maximize your income in the time you are there. The 20 % on herbs is a tough question. I am thinking of hiring an associate in the near future. I thought I would order all the herbs, make recommendations, since many of the students out of my school don't study them,and then they would get 20% of the sale. This is typical in a MLM deal (I hate to utter the words - they have not worked for me). So I mean my associate would get 20% of the 100% profit I would get. Maybe someone else is doing this and can say what they think is fair. When I hire an associate, they will be doing a 1hr plus drive to my offfice. Most practitioners are located that far away from me. I would have 2 rooms and would make sure the patient load was there. You can't guarantee, but you can build the demand so there is a reasonable patient load. However, it does sound like you and this practitioner may not be on the same page. I can see the one room with a long facial treamtent, and charging accordingly. The workman's comp. Wow, what different patient groups. Anyway, it seems like you are not too comfortable with this practitioner and her goals - so definitely listen to that. Anne C. Crowley, L.Ac., Dipl.Ac. www.LaPlataAcupuncture.com - " Julie Ormonde " <cariadanam " Traditional " <Chinese Medicine > Thursday, March 12, 2009 8:12:17 PM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern Splitting Herbs (money question) Has anybody who is in a split situation, split part of their herb sales as well? I posted awhile back about a possible job, well she has decided she wants to do a split 50/50, she provides all supplies, one room only, and wants 20% of herb profits. I have to drive an hour there, two hours round trip, pay for childcare for 3 children, she has only had this office 2 months. So I have no guarantee of how busy it will be. I could essentially drive there for one patient, they no show, and have to drive home, paying out 2 hours of childcare with no income. She is interested in spa services and workers comp. Im not interested in spa. But I'd like some extra cash, you know? Im really leaning against this, and I just can't imagine giving her part of the herbs, seems wrong in a way, so Im curious as to others opinions? Julie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 13, 2009 Report Share Posted March 13, 2009 Thank you everyone for your responses (off and on list) I think the reality and irregardless of even the legalities, is I just really don't like the feel of the practice and don't want to sit in traffic 2+ hours a day to do something I really don't like meanwhile paying out the nose for extra childcare. I have a special needs son who goes to a private school and I am desperately trying to afford to keep him there, so truly my only motivation to do this is to make extra money. I just moved states and am building up a new practice so it isn't providing much income at this point. But I feel that if I put the same amount of time and energy into my own practice that it will work out in the end. Thank you for the " go with your gut " type of comments because my gut is screaming loud and clear, lol. Julie Ormonde, L.Ac. On Fri, Mar 13, 2009 at 8:47 AM, mike Bowser <naturaldoc1wrote: > > I think that this issue is more about the legal and tax issues then it is > simply a matter of business model. Here are the reasons why. > While we do not know the full details of the proposed arrangement, I have > not read anyone asking about employee/independent contractor status, state > acupuncture laws, federal law, IRS criteria for taxation, etc. All of these > are equally as important. > I have discussed many of these issues with an attorney that is also a > chiropractor as the chiropractic laws seem applicable in many cases to > acupuncturists as well. > First, we should know which state this person is in and what the > acupuncture and other applicable state laws say. > Next, we should consider that deviation from the norm as far as creating > business models does not bode well in court. Most of us rent from a landlord > (fixed rate) or are employees and simply get a paycheck. > If this is an attempt to avoid paying taxes, know that the IRS will get > their money, one way or another. I have asked this practitioner to look at > Dr. Kevin McNamee's (DC/LAc) article in the archives at > www.acupuncturetoday.com as it nicely shows you which category you are in > at a glance and reminds us that we cannot pick and choose from each side but > must stay in one column or the other for legitimacy. > A % may be justified, as it is in chiropractic practice, when one becomes > an associate. A contract should be drawn up detailing the particulars. > The other issue is known as " fee-splitting " and is illegal in most states. > If this is about trying to use a % in lieu of rent and you are trying to > keep your overhead low, then consider rental by the day or even hourly. > There is no reason to pay for a month when you only need a small of amount > of time until you need more space. The money for your rent should not be > tied directly to the patients fee as it is in a % rental (fee splitting) > situation. > Again, we need to defer this to the acupuncture licensing board and/or > attorney general's office for determination. Be careful if you are creating > something that is questionable from the outside. > In the end, it sounds like an attorney may be needed to create a legit > contract for employment and clarify what is acceptable. Business law does > not trump medical law. > It also sounds like there is a rather large area of disagreement over niche > market for the practice. I would walk away from this one, quickly. > > Michael W. Bowser, LAc > > To: Chinese Medicine <Chinese Medicine%40yaho\ ogroups.com> > anne.crowley <anne.crowley%40comcast.net> > Fri, 13 Mar 2009 02:15:05 +0000 > Re: Splitting Herbs (money question) > > > This is a tough one Julie. 50/50 is okay as long as many things are > provided, including the patient. She should have some idea of patient load, > so that you are not driving that distance for less than 3 patients, ideally > 8 patients. Why only one room? If you had two, could maximize your income in > the time you are there. The 20 % on herbs is a tough question. I am thinking > of hiring an associate in the near future. I thought I would order all the > herbs, make recommendations, since many of the students out of my school > don't study them,and then they would get 20% of the sale. This is typical in > a MLM deal (I hate to utter the words - they have not worked for me). So I > mean my associate would get 20% of the 100% profit I would get. Maybe > someone else is doing this and can say what they think is fair. > > When I hire an associate, they will be doing a 1hr plus drive to my > offfice. Most practitioners are located that far away from me. I would have > 2 rooms and would make sure the patient load was there. You can't guarantee, > but you can build the demand so there is a reasonable patient load. > > However, it does sound like you and this practitioner may not be on the > same page. I can see the one room with a long facial treamtent, and charging > accordingly. The workman's comp. Wow, what different patient groups. Anyway, > it seems like you are not too comfortable with this practitioner and her > goals - so definitely listen to that. > > Anne C. Crowley, L.Ac., Dipl.Ac. > > www.LaPlataAcupuncture.com <http://www.laplataacupuncture.com/> > > - > > " Julie Ormonde " <cariadanam <cariadanam%40gmail.com>> > > " Traditional " < > Chinese Medicine <Chinese Medicine%40yaho\ ogroups.com>> > > > Thursday, March 12, 2009 8:12:17 PM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern > > Splitting Herbs (money question) > > Has anybody who is in a split situation, split part of their herb sales as > > well? > > I posted awhile back about a possible job, well she has decided she wants > to > > do a split 50/50, she provides all supplies, one room only, and wants 20% > of > > herb profits. I have to drive an hour there, two hours round trip, pay for > > childcare for 3 children, she has only had this office 2 months. So I have > > no guarantee of how busy it will be. I could essentially drive there for > > one patient, they no show, and have to drive home, paying out 2 hours of > > childcare with no income. She is interested in spa services and workers > > comp. Im not interested in spa. But I'd like some extra cash, you know? > > Im really leaning against this, and I just can't imagine giving her part of > > > the herbs, seems wrong in a way, so Im curious as to others opinions? > > Julie > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 14, 2009 Report Share Posted March 14, 2009 Hello Julie Ormonde, I am currently in an associate position and receive 65% of what we charge the client. I don't receive anything for herb sales unless I special order something for the client... then I receive 100% of the profit if I charge more than cost, but this is a rare occurance, as our clinic is well stocked by my office mate with many patent formulas. I am in my first year of practice and am just now starting my own practice on the side after several months at this position. I also travel over an hour to commute to this job. I must say that this agreement has been more profitable to me in tangible and intangible ways than I could have anticipated at the beginning. It is a big blessing to come into a well ordered already established system of business. I have learned so much from this and my life has been eased considerably because of it. There are so many pieces to running a business that I don't have to worry at all about as an associate. It is a joy just to show up to work, clients provided... no need to market myself or go out and find a computer system, filing system, sheets to wash, track and purchase herb inventory, etc, etc... Frankly I am glad to be giving away some of the profits because I recognize all the work he puts into the business and that which I don't have to do, but can learn from for my own purposes in the future. Make sure you are with someone whom you enjoy and trust, someone from whom you know you can learn something, and then you will not mind the hopefully rare occasion where a day or a week was slow. Make sure the business is doing well currently and is only expected to grow, that new patients will be funneled your direction, and that the charges to the patient are high enough to make each visit worth your while. It is a wonderful thing to be able to practice right after licensure... even if it is not the kind of money you want to be earning later on. I knew I needed to put my knowledge to use right away, so I was willing to share profits in order to enjoy such growth as a practitioner and eventually as a self employed small business owner. Best, Kat Delse, L.Ac. http://www.sacramento-acupuncture.com http://www. santarosa-acupuncture.com Chinese Medicine , Julie Ormonde <cariadanam wrote: > > Has anybody who is in a split situation, split part of their herb sales as > well? > > I posted awhile back about a possible job, well she has decided she wants to > do a split 50/50, she provides all supplies, one room only, and wants 20% of > herb profits. I have to drive an hour there, two hours round trip, pay for > childcare for 3 children, she has only had this office 2 months. So I have > no guarantee of how busy it will be. I could essentially drive there for > one patient, they no show, and have to drive home, paying out 2 hours of > childcare with no income. She is interested in spa services and workers > comp. Im not interested in spa. But I'd like some extra cash, you know? > Im really leaning against this, and I just can't imagine giving her part of > the herbs, seems wrong in a way, so Im curious as to others opinions? > > Julie > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 14, 2009 Report Share Posted March 14, 2009 Kat: I totally agree with you. I began practicing in an area with very few acupuncturists. I had ties to the community. What I didn't know is how much I would have to market myself to get consistent patients in the door. I broke even for 3 years. I worked alone and was pretty far from other acupuncturists. The ones in the community weren't too open arms. Joining the TCM was a live saver. I do have a community in Columbia MD where I went to school, but that is 1.5 hrs. from my house. I am doing well now and growing all the time. I will also bring an associate on, probably in the 50% range. I will supply the clients and everything else needed. I will also train the associate and order herbs etc. By the time someone leaves my business, hopefully in 2 years, they will be ready to go with lots of up-front knowlege. The other thing they will know how to do is relieve pain fairly quickly. As I say, no pain relief, no patient. Now if the person doesn't want to leave and take on these business responsiblities, that is fine too. What everyone must realize is there are huge risks to running a business. If the owner is willing to take them on, then they should be compensated. If you want to be an employee, you show up and don't worry about these things. Anne Anne C. Crowley, L.Ac., Dipl.Ac. www.LaPlataAcupuncture.com - " katdelse " <katdelse " Traditional " <Chinese Medicine > Friday, March 13, 2009 7:35:44 PM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern  Re: Splitting Herbs (money question) Hello Julie Ormonde, I am currently in an associate position and receive 65% of what we charge the client. I don't receive anything for herb sales unless I special order something for the client... then I receive 100% of the profit if I charge more than cost, but this is a rare occurance, as our clinic is well stocked by my office mate with many patent formulas. I am in my first year of practice and am just now starting my own practice on the side after several months at this position. I also travel over an hour to commute to this job. I must say that this agreement has been more profitable to me in tangible and intangible ways than I could have anticipated at the beginning. It is a big blessing to come into a well ordered already established system of business. I have learned so much from this and my life has been eased considerably because of it. There are so many pieces to running a business that I don't have to worry at all about as an associate. It is a joy just to show up to work, clients provided... no need to market myself or go out and find a computer system, filing system, sheets to wash, track and purchase herb inventory, etc, etc... Frankly I am glad to be giving away some of the profits because I recognize all the work he puts into the business and that which I don't have to do, but can learn from for my own purposes in the future. Make sure you are with someone whom you enjoy and trust, someone from whom you know you can learn something, and then you will not mind the hopefully rare occasion where a day or a week was slow. Make sure the business is doing well currently and is only expected to grow, that new patients will be funneled your direction, and that the charges to the patient are high enough to make each visit worth your while. It is a wonderful thing to be able to practice right after licensure... even if it is not the kind of money you want to be earning later on. I knew I needed to put my knowledge to use right away, so I was willing to share profits in order to enjoy such growth as a practitioner and eventually as a self employed small business owner. Best, Kat Delse, L.Ac. http://www.sacramento-acupuncture.com http://www. santarosa-acupuncture.com Chinese Medicine , Julie Ormonde <cariadanam wrote: > > Has anybody who is in a split situation, split part of their herb sales as > well? > > I posted awhile back about a possible job, well she has decided she wants to > do a split 50/50, she provides all supplies, one room only, and wants 20% of > herb profits. I have to drive an hour there, two hours round trip, pay for > childcare for 3 children, she has only had this office 2 months. So I have > no guarantee of how busy it will be. I could essentially drive there for > one patient, they no show, and have to drive home, paying out 2 hours of > childcare with no income. She is interested in spa services and workers > comp. Im not interested in spa. But I'd like some extra cash, you know? > Im really leaning against this, and I just can't imagine giving her part of > the herbs, seems wrong in a way, so Im curious as to others opinions? > > Julie > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 14, 2009 Report Share Posted March 14, 2009 Kat and Anne, I appreciate your thoughts. If I were in a similar position to you Kat, I think it could be a good deal, provided I had some way of knowing the patients were going to come. But I am not a new practitioner, nor am I a new business owner, this is not an established business that I can walk right into and work, I will have to essentially set it up, order the herb pharmacy, and institute an acupuncture practice, etc. I have been practicing for over six years and am well aware of the ins/outs of building a business, what treatments work for me, etc. I am not naive to say I know it all and wouldn't learn anything, I am sure I would, but still for 50% and 3 children to pay childcare for it is just too risky for me. Kat - I am sure you saw that I am up out of Sac, just curious as to where you live, I see you have your practice in Santa Rosa, thats quite a drive from Sac to Santa Rosa! If you are somewhere near we should connect. Julie On Fri, Mar 13, 2009 at 5:30 PM, Anne Crowley <anne.crowleywrote: > > > Kat: > > I totally agree with you. I began practicing in an area with very few > acupuncturists. I had ties to the community. What I didn't know is how > much I would have to market myself to get consistent patients in the door. > I broke even for 3 years. I worked alone and was pretty far from other > acupuncturists. The ones in the community weren't too open arms. Joining > the TCM was a live saver. I do have a community in Columbia MD > where I went to school, but that is 1.5 hrs. from my house. > > I am doing well now and growing all the time. I will also bring an > associate on, probably in the 50% range. I will supply the clients and > everything else needed. I will also train the associate and order herbs > etc. By the time someone leaves my business, hopefully in 2 years, they > will be ready to go with lots of up-front knowlege. The other thing they > will know how to do is relieve pain fairly quickly. As I say, no pain > relief, no patient. Now if the person doesn't want to leave and take on > these business responsiblities, that is fine too. What everyone must > realize is there are huge risks to running a business. If the owner is > willing to take them on, then they should be compensated. If you want to be > an employee, you show up and don't worry about these things. > > Anne > > Anne C. Crowley, L.Ac., Dipl.Ac. > www.LaPlataAcupuncture.com <http://www.laplataacupuncture.com/> > > - > " katdelse " <katdelse <katdelse%40>> > " Traditional " < > Chinese Medicine <Chinese Medicine%40yaho\ ogroups.com>> > > Friday, March 13, 2009 7:35:44 PM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern > Re: Splitting Herbs (money question) > > Hello Julie Ormonde, > I am currently in an associate position and receive 65% of what we charge > the client. I don't receive anything for herb sales unless I special order > something for the client... then I receive 100% of the profit if I charge > more than cost, but this is a rare occurance, as our clinic is well stocked > by my office mate with many patent formulas. I am in my first year of > practice and am just now starting my own practice on the side after several > months at this position. I also travel over an hour to commute to this job. > I must say that this agreement has been more profitable to me in tangible > and intangible ways than I could have anticipated at the beginning. It is a > big blessing to come into a well ordered already established system of > business. I have learned so much from this and my life has been eased > considerably because of it. There are so many pieces to running a business > that I don't have to worry at all about as an associate. It is a joy just to > show up to work, clients provided... no need to market myself or go out and > find a computer system, filing system, sheets to wash, track and purchase > herb inventory, etc, etc... Frankly I am glad to be giving away some of the > profits because I recognize all the work he puts into the business and that > which I don't have to do, but can learn from for my own purposes in the > future. Make sure you are with someone whom you enjoy and trust, someone > from whom you know you can learn something, and then you will not mind the > hopefully rare occasion where a day or a week was slow. Make sure the > business is doing well currently and is only expected to grow, that new > patients will be funneled your direction, and that the charges to the > patient are high enough to make each visit worth your while. It is a > wonderful thing to be able to practice right after licensure... even if it > is not the kind of money you want to be earning later on. I knew I needed to > put my knowledge to use right away, so I was willing to share profits in > order to enjoy such growth as a practitioner and eventually as a self > employed small business owner. > Best, Kat Delse, L.Ac. > http://www.sacramento-acupuncture.com > http://www. santarosa-acupuncture.com > > --- In Chinese Medicine <Chinese Medicine%40yaho\ ogroups.com>, Julie Ormonde <cariadanam > wrote: > > > > Has anybody who is in a split situation, split part of their herb sales > as > > well? > > > > I posted awhile back about a possible job, well she has decided she wants > to > > do a split 50/50, she provides all supplies, one room only, and wants 20% > of > > herb profits. I have to drive an hour there, two hours round trip, pay > for > > childcare for 3 children, she has only had this office 2 months. So I > have > > no guarantee of how busy it will be. I could essentially drive there for > > one patient, they no show, and have to drive home, paying out 2 hours of > > childcare with no income. She is interested in spa services and workers > > comp. Im not interested in spa. But I'd like some extra cash, you know? > > Im really leaning against this, and I just can't imagine giving her part > of > > the herbs, seems wrong in a way, so Im curious as to others opinions? > > > > Julie > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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