fighting the MD/DO only insurance coverage of acupuncture

[Guest guest]

I would like to connect up with other L.Ac.'s interested in challenging and

changing the policy of certain insurance companies who only cover acupuncture

when it is performed by an MD or DO. I live in Hawaii and played a lead role in

the 1993 legislation that does not exempt MD's, DO's or DC's from our practice

act (meaning anyone wanting to practice acupuncture in Hawaii must graduate from

accredited TCM schools and pass the NCCAOM exam, no shortcuts). By the way,

every few years a group of MD's put forth a bill in the legislature trying to

reverse this, thus it is an onging issue. One of their strongest arguments

continues to be that Hawaii is the odd ball state, the only state with this

" restriction. "

 

Even here, where MD's practicing acupuncture without full licensure is illegal,

I am faced with mainland insurance companies that deny my patients coverage

because I'm not an MD/DO. I want to work with others to change that. I can go

through our Insurance Commission here locally to show that in Hawaii this policy

basically nullifies the patients benefit as MD's can practice acupuncture

(unless they are a L.Ac.), but if I'm going to put forth the effort, perhaps a

national effort would effectively improve things for all L.Ac.'s wishing to

participate with insurance.

 

Has anyone else out there successfully fought this issue or is willing to work

with me on this? Is anyone from the AAAOM working on this issue already?

 

Aloha,

Joni Kroll, L.Ac.

[Guest guest]

The Hinkey Bill would put acupuncture as a covered service under Medicare, and

this is what insurance companies use to decide coverage. All states, big or

small, well populated with LAc or no LAc, would have coverage of our services

almost overnight. It would take us many years to do this on a state-by-state

basis.

 

 

 

I would love to help, just send me an email offlist and we can discuss this

more.

 

Michael W. Bowser, LAc

 

 

 

 

 

Chinese Medicine

acujoni

Tue, 10 Mar 2009 18:00:40 +0000

fighting the MD/DO only insurance coverage of acupuncture

 

 

 

 

 

I would like to connect up with other L.Ac.'s interested in challenging and

changing the policy of certain insurance companies who only cover acupuncture

when it is performed by an MD or DO. I live in Hawaii and played a lead role in

the 1993 legislation that does not exempt MD's, DO's or DC's from our practice

act (meaning anyone wanting to practice acupuncture in Hawaii must graduate from

accredited TCM schools and pass the NCCAOM exam, no shortcuts). By the way,

every few years a group of MD's put forth a bill in the legislature trying to

reverse this, thus it is an onging issue. One of their strongest arguments

continues to be that Hawaii is the odd ball state, the only state with this

" restriction. "

 

Even here, where MD's practicing acupuncture without full licensure is illegal,

I am faced with mainland insurance companies that deny my patients coverage

because I'm not an MD/DO. I want to work with others to change that. I can go

through our Insurance Commission here locally to show that in Hawaii this policy

basically nullifies the patients benefit as MD's can practice acupuncture

(unless they are a L.Ac.), but if I'm going to put forth the effort, perhaps a

national effort would effectively improve things for all L.Ac.'s wishing to

participate with insurance.

 

Has anyone else out there successfully fought this issue or is willing to work

with me on this? Is anyone from the AAAOM working on this issue already?

 

Aloha,

Joni Kroll, L.Ac.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

_______________

Windows Live™ Groups: Create an online spot for your favorite groups to meet.

http://windowslive.com/online/groups?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_groups_032009

 

 

[Guest guest]

Hi Joni. I don't know much about the process, but it see me to me that if

insurance companies covered Ac decently, everyone would benefit. I'm interested.

 

--- On Tue, 3/10/09, Joni Kroll, D.Ac. <acujoni wrote:

Joni Kroll, D.Ac. <acujoni

fighting the MD/DO only insurance coverage of acupuncture

Chinese Medicine

Tuesday, March 10, 2009, 2:00 PM

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I would like to connect up with other L.Ac.'s interested in

challenging and changing the policy of certain insurance companies who only

cover acupuncture when it is performed by an MD or DO. I live in Hawaii and

played a lead role in the 1993 legislation that does not exempt MD's, DO's or

DC's from our practice act (meaning anyone wanting to practice acupuncture in

Hawaii must graduate from accredited TCM schools and pass the NCCAOM exam, no

shortcuts). By the way, every few years a group of MD's put forth a bill in the

legislature trying to reverse this, thus it is an onging issue. One of their

strongest arguments continues to be that Hawaii is the odd ball state, the only

state with this " restriction. "

 

 

 

Even here, where MD's practicing acupuncture without full licensure is illegal,

I am faced with mainland insurance companies that deny my patients coverage

because I'm not an MD/DO. I want to work with others to change that. I can go

through our Insurance Commission here locally to show that in Hawaii this policy

basically nullifies the patients benefit as MD's can practice acupuncture

(unless they are a L.Ac.), but if I'm going to put forth the effort, perhaps a

national effort would effectively improve things for all L.Ac.'s wishing to

participate with insurance.

 

 

 

Has anyone else out there successfully fought this issue or is willing to work

with me on this? Is anyone from the AAAOM working on this issue already?

 

 

 

Aloha,

 

Joni Kroll, L.Ac.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Here in Seattle this isn't a big issue. But whenever I hear about it happening

elsewhere I feel really riled up about it. If there is a way that I can help out

let me know.

 

 

 

Chinese Medicine , mystir <ykcul_ritsym

wrote:

>

> Hi Joni. I don't know much about the process, but it see me to me that if

insurance companies covered Ac decently, everyone would benefit. I'm interested.

>

> --- On Tue, 3/10/09, Joni Kroll, D.Ac. <acujoni wrote:

> Joni Kroll, D.Ac. <acujoni

> fighting the MD/DO only insurance coverage of acupuncture

> Chinese Medicine

> Tuesday, March 10, 2009, 2:00 PM

>

>

>

>

>

>

I would like to connect up with other L.Ac.'s interested in

challenging and changing the policy of certain insurance companies who only

cover acupuncture when it is performed by an MD or DO. I live in Hawaii and

played a lead role in the 1993 legislation that does not exempt MD's, DO's or

DC's from our practice act (meaning anyone wanting to practice acupuncture in

Hawaii must graduate from accredited TCM schools and pass the NCCAOM exam, no

shortcuts). By the way, every few years a group of MD's put forth a bill in the

legislature trying to reverse this, thus it is an onging issue. One of their

strongest arguments continues to be that Hawaii is the odd ball state, the only

state with this " restriction. "

>

>

>

> Even here, where MD's practicing acupuncture without full licensure is

illegal, I am faced with mainland insurance companies that deny my patients

coverage because I'm not an MD/DO. I want to work with others to change that.

I can go through our Insurance Commission here locally to show that in Hawaii

this policy basically nullifies the patients benefit as MD's can practice

acupuncture (unless they are a L.Ac.), but if I'm going to put forth the effort,

perhaps a national effort would effectively improve things for all L.Ac.'s

wishing to participate with insurance.

>

>

>

> Has anyone else out there successfully fought this issue or is willing to work

with me on this? Is anyone from the AAAOM working on this issue already?

>

>

>

> Aloha,

>

> Joni Kroll, L.Ac.

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

 

[Guest guest]

I think one of the sources of our problems comes from this idea (that we help

perpectuate) that acupuncture is " all good " and that there can be no negative

side effect from the wrong treatment. I think we help perpetuate this idea for

a good reason--we are afraid of being sued. But what happens is that people

figure if it is as simple as sticking needles in people and there are no

potential problems why not let anyone/everyone do it?

 

In New Mexico it is legal for any provider--including social workers, therapists

etc--to do 5 needle protocol!! They are trying to pass this same law in

Washington. I find this shocking. If we would just admit to the level of skill

involved in what we do we might open ourselves to being sued more but we would

save our profession and increase our level of respect. What would a social

worker do with a patient who was wiped out from 5 needle protocol because they

are too deficient for a treatment like that?

 

Laura

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Chinese Medicine , mike Bowser

<naturaldoc1 wrote:

>

>

> The Hinkey Bill would put acupuncture as a covered service under Medicare, and

this is what insurance companies use to decide coverage. All states, big or

small, well populated with LAc or no LAc, would have coverage of our services

almost overnight. It would take us many years to do this on a state-by-state

basis.

>

>

>

> I would love to help, just send me an email offlist and we can discuss this

more.

>

> Michael W. Bowser, LAc

>

>

>

>

>

> Chinese Medicine

> acujoni

> Tue, 10 Mar 2009 18:00:40 +0000

> fighting the MD/DO only insurance coverage of acupuncture

>

>

>

>

>

> I would like to connect up with other L.Ac.'s interested in challenging and

changing the policy of certain insurance companies who only cover acupuncture

when it is performed by an MD or DO. I live in Hawaii and played a lead role in

the 1993 legislation that does not exempt MD's, DO's or DC's from our practice

act (meaning anyone wanting to practice acupuncture in Hawaii must graduate from

accredited TCM schools and pass the NCCAOM exam, no shortcuts). By the way,

every few years a group of MD's put forth a bill in the legislature trying to

reverse this, thus it is an onging issue. One of their strongest arguments

continues to be that Hawaii is the odd ball state, the only state with this

" restriction. "

>

> Even here, where MD's practicing acupuncture without full licensure is

illegal, I am faced with mainland insurance companies that deny my patients

coverage because I'm not an MD/DO. I want to work with others to change that. I

can go through our Insurance Commission here locally to show that in Hawaii this

policy basically nullifies the patients benefit as MD's can practice acupuncture

(unless they are a L.Ac.), but if I'm going to put forth the effort, perhaps a

national effort would effectively improve things for all L.Ac.'s wishing to

participate with insurance.

>

> Has anyone else out there successfully fought this issue or is willing to work

with me on this? Is anyone from the AAAOM working on this issue already?

>

> Aloha,

> Joni Kroll, L.Ac.

>

>

>

_______________

> Windows Live™ Groups: Create an online spot for your favorite groups to meet.

> http://windowslive.com/online/groups?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_groups_032009

>

>

[Guest guest]

In Arizona anyone can take the NADA training (long weekend) and become a

NADA acupuncturist. They have to work under a L.Ac. however.

 

I'm all for helping as many people as possible with acupuncture. Some

acupuncture does not require 3000 hours of training. You don't always

need to understand the ins and outs of meridians, crossing points, 5E

and 6 Stage relationships, know 250 herbal formulas in pinyin, and be

able to come up with a good Zang Fu diagnosis to treat simple conditions.

 

If simple training can prepare someone to treat things like addiction

and PTSD in mass then I'm all for it. If MD's, ND's and Chiroprators can

successfully treat pain with acupuncture after 300 hours of training...

good for them. Like I tell my students, the only issue I have with

anyone doing acupuncture poorly is the those people who try it and get

no results form an opinion of acupuncture that doesn't do it justice.

 

Chris Vedeler L.Ac.

 

heylaurag wrote:

>

>

> I think one of the sources of our problems comes from this idea (that

> we help perpectuate) that acupuncture is " all good " and that there can

> be no negative side effect from the wrong treatment. I think we help

> perpetuate this idea for a good reason--we are afraid of being sued.

> But what happens is that people figure if it is as simple as sticking

> needles in people and there are no potential problems why not let

> anyone/everyone do it?

>

> In New Mexico it is legal for any provider--including social workers,

> therapists etc--to do 5 needle protocol!! They are trying to pass this

> same law in Washington. I find this shocking. If we would just admit

> to the level of skill involved in what we do we might open ourselves

> to being sued more but we would save our profession and increase our

> level of respect. What would a social worker do with a patient who was

> wiped out from 5 needle protocol because they are too deficient for a

> treatment like that?

>

> Laura

>

>

> Chinese Medicine

> <Chinese Medicine%40>, mike Bowser

> <naturaldoc1 wrote:

> >

> >

> > The Hinkey Bill would put acupuncture as a covered service under

> Medicare, and this is what insurance companies use to decide coverage.

> All states, big or small, well populated with LAc or no LAc, would

> have coverage of our services almost overnight. It would take us many

> years to do this on a state-by-state basis.

> >

> >

> >

> > I would love to help, just send me an email offlist and we can

> discuss this more.

> >

> > Michael W. Bowser, LAc

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> > Chinese Medicine

> <Chinese Medicine%40>

> > acujoni

> > Tue, 10 Mar 2009 18:00:40 +0000

> > fighting the MD/DO only insurance coverage of acupuncture

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> > I would like to connect up with other L.Ac.'s interested in

> challenging and changing the policy of certain insurance companies who

> only cover acupuncture when it is performed by an MD or DO. I live in

> Hawaii and played a lead role in the 1993 legislation that does not

> exempt MD's, DO's or DC's from our practice act (meaning anyone

> wanting to practice acupuncture in Hawaii must graduate from

> accredited TCM schools and pass the NCCAOM exam, no shortcuts). By the

> way, every few years a group of MD's put forth a bill in the

> legislature trying to reverse this, thus it is an onging issue. One of

> their strongest arguments continues to be that Hawaii is the odd ball

> state, the only state with this " restriction. "

> >

> > Even here, where MD's practicing acupuncture without full licensure

> is illegal, I am faced with mainland insurance companies that deny my

> patients coverage because I'm not an MD/DO. I want to work with others

> to change that. I can go through our Insurance Commission here locally

> to show that in Hawaii this policy basically nullifies the patients

> benefit as MD's can practice acupuncture (unless they are a L.Ac.),

> but if I'm going to put forth the effort, perhaps a national effort

> would effectively improve things for all L.Ac.'s wishing to

> participate with insurance.

> >

> > Has anyone else out there successfully fought this issue or is

> willing to work with me on this? Is anyone from the AAAOM working on

> this issue already?

> >

> > Aloha,

> > Joni Kroll, L.Ac.

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> > ________

> > Windows Live™ Groups: Create an online spot for your favorite groups

> to meet.

> > http://windowslive.com/online/groups?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_groups_032009

> <http://windowslive.com/online/groups?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_groups_032009>

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

Well, yeah, that's the problem--there is no treatment in the world that is all

good for everyone--including 5NP. I've seen people with qi and blood defiency

get insomnia from 5NP and others just get wiped out. I knew how to reverse what

was done. A social worker wouldn't (and, by the way, I am a former social

worker, so nothing against social workers).

 

 

 

 

Chinese Medicine , Christopher Vedeler

<vedeler wrote:

>

> In Arizona anyone can take the NADA training (long weekend) and become a

> NADA acupuncturist. They have to work under a L.Ac. however.

>

> I'm all for helping as many people as possible with acupuncture. Some

> acupuncture does not require 3000 hours of training. You don't always

> need to understand the ins and outs of meridians, crossing points, 5E

> and 6 Stage relationships, know 250 herbal formulas in pinyin, and be

> able to come up with a good Zang Fu diagnosis to treat simple conditions.

>

> If simple training can prepare someone to treat things like addiction

> and PTSD in mass then I'm all for it. If MD's, ND's and Chiroprators can

> successfully treat pain with acupuncture after 300 hours of training...

> good for them. Like I tell my students, the only issue I have with

> anyone doing acupuncture poorly is the those people who try it and get

> no results form an opinion of acupuncture that doesn't do it justice.

>

> Chris Vedeler L.Ac.

>

> heylaurag wrote:

> >

> >

> > I think one of the sources of our problems comes from this idea (that

> > we help perpectuate) that acupuncture is " all good " and that there can

> > be no negative side effect from the wrong treatment. I think we help

> > perpetuate this idea for a good reason--we are afraid of being sued.

> > But what happens is that people figure if it is as simple as sticking

> > needles in people and there are no potential problems why not let

> > anyone/everyone do it?

> >

> > In New Mexico it is legal for any provider--including social workers,

> > therapists etc--to do 5 needle protocol!! They are trying to pass this

> > same law in Washington. I find this shocking. If we would just admit

> > to the level of skill involved in what we do we might open ourselves

> > to being sued more but we would save our profession and increase our

> > level of respect. What would a social worker do with a patient who was

> > wiped out from 5 needle protocol because they are too deficient for a

> > treatment like that?

> >

> > Laura

> >

> >

> > Chinese Medicine

> > <Chinese Medicine%40>, mike Bowser

> > <naturaldoc1@> wrote:

> > >

> > >

> > > The Hinkey Bill would put acupuncture as a covered service under

> > Medicare, and this is what insurance companies use to decide coverage.

> > All states, big or small, well populated with LAc or no LAc, would

> > have coverage of our services almost overnight. It would take us many

> > years to do this on a state-by-state basis.

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > > I would love to help, just send me an email offlist and we can

> > discuss this more.

> > >

> > > Michael W. Bowser, LAc

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > > Chinese Medicine

> > <Chinese Medicine%40>

> > > acujoni@

> > > Tue, 10 Mar 2009 18:00:40 +0000

> > > fighting the MD/DO only insurance coverage of acupuncture

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > > I would like to connect up with other L.Ac.'s interested in

> > challenging and changing the policy of certain insurance companies who

> > only cover acupuncture when it is performed by an MD or DO. I live in

> > Hawaii and played a lead role in the 1993 legislation that does not

> > exempt MD's, DO's or DC's from our practice act (meaning anyone

> > wanting to practice acupuncture in Hawaii must graduate from

> > accredited TCM schools and pass the NCCAOM exam, no shortcuts). By the

> > way, every few years a group of MD's put forth a bill in the

> > legislature trying to reverse this, thus it is an onging issue. One of

> > their strongest arguments continues to be that Hawaii is the odd ball

> > state, the only state with this " restriction. "

> > >

> > > Even here, where MD's practicing acupuncture without full licensure

> > is illegal, I am faced with mainland insurance companies that deny my

> > patients coverage because I'm not an MD/DO. I want to work with others

> > to change that. I can go through our Insurance Commission here locally

> > to show that in Hawaii this policy basically nullifies the patients

> > benefit as MD's can practice acupuncture (unless they are a L.Ac.),

> > but if I'm going to put forth the effort, perhaps a national effort

> > would effectively improve things for all L.Ac.'s wishing to

> > participate with insurance.

> > >

> > > Has anyone else out there successfully fought this issue or is

> > willing to work with me on this? Is anyone from the AAAOM working on

> > this issue already?

> > >

> > > Aloha,

> > > Joni Kroll, L.Ac.

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > > ________

> > > Windows Live™ Groups: Create an online spot for your favorite groups

> > to meet.

> > > http://windowslive.com/online/groups?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_groups_032009

> > <http://windowslive.com/online/groups?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_groups_032009>

> > >

> > >

[Guest guest]

Chris,

Sounds like a contradiction in terms to me. The fact is that what looks like a

simple problem can become a much more complex one. Educational levels are meant

to help you catch these problems and there simply is no way they can understand

them. At least in AZ, an LAc must supervise these guys. Too bad we are not

supervising the others as well. Having the training and experience is what

brings about better results.

 

Michael W. Bowser, LAc

> Chinese Medicine

> vedeler

> Tue, 10 Mar 2009 20:15:26 -0700

> Re: fighting the MD/DO only insurance coverage of acupuncture

>

> In Arizona anyone can take the NADA training (long weekend) and become a

> NADA acupuncturist. They have to work under a L.Ac. however.

>

> I'm all for helping as many people as possible with acupuncture. Some

> acupuncture does not require 3000 hours of training. You don't always

> need to understand the ins and outs of meridians, crossing points, 5E

> and 6 Stage relationships, know 250 herbal formulas in pinyin, and be

> able to come up with a good Zang Fu diagnosis to treat simple conditions.

>

> If simple training can prepare someone to treat things like addiction

> and PTSD in mass then I'm all for it. If MD's, ND's and Chiroprators can

> successfully treat pain with acupuncture after 300 hours of training...

> good for them. Like I tell my students, the only issue I have with

> anyone doing acupuncture poorly is the those people who try it and get

> no results form an opinion of acupuncture that doesn't do it justice.

>

> Chris Vedeler L.Ac.

>

> heylaurag wrote:

>>

>>

>> I think one of the sources of our problems comes from this idea (that

>> we help perpectuate) that acupuncture is " all good " and that there can

>> be no negative side effect from the wrong treatment. I think we help

>> perpetuate this idea for a good reason--we are afraid of being sued.

>> But what happens is that people figure if it is as simple as sticking

>> needles in people and there are no potential problems why not let

>> anyone/everyone do it?

>>

>> In New Mexico it is legal for any provider--including social workers,

>> therapists etc--to do 5 needle protocol!! They are trying to pass this

>> same law in Washington. I find this shocking. If we would just admit

>> to the level of skill involved in what we do we might open ourselves

>> to being sued more but we would save our profession and increase our

>> level of respect. What would a social worker do with a patient who was

>> wiped out from 5 needle protocol because they are too deficient for a

>> treatment like that?

>>

>> Laura

>>

>>

>> Chinese Medicine

>> <Chinese Medicine%40>, mike Bowser

>> <naturaldoc1 wrote:

>>>

>>>

>>> The Hinkey Bill would put acupuncture as a covered service under

>> Medicare, and this is what insurance companies use to decide coverage.

>> All states, big or small, well populated with LAc or no LAc, would

>> have coverage of our services almost overnight. It would take us many

>> years to do this on a state-by-state basis.

>>>

>>>

>>>

>>> I would love to help, just send me an email offlist and we can

>> discuss this more.

>>>

>>> Michael W. Bowser, LAc

>>>

>>>

>>>

>>>

>>>

>>> Chinese Medicine

>> <Chinese Medicine%40>

>>> acujoni

>>> Tue, 10 Mar 2009 18:00:40 +0000

>>> fighting the MD/DO only insurance coverage of acupuncture

>>>

>>>

>>>

>>>

>>>

>>> I would like to connect up with other L.Ac.'s interested in

>> challenging and changing the policy of certain insurance companies who

>> only cover acupuncture when it is performed by an MD or DO. I live in

>> Hawaii and played a lead role in the 1993 legislation that does not

>> exempt MD's, DO's or DC's from our practice act (meaning anyone

>> wanting to practice acupuncture in Hawaii must graduate from

>> accredited TCM schools and pass the NCCAOM exam, no shortcuts). By the

>> way, every few years a group of MD's put forth a bill in the

>> legislature trying to reverse this, thus it is an onging issue. One of

>> their strongest arguments continues to be that Hawaii is the odd ball

>> state, the only state with this " restriction. "

>>>

>>> Even here, where MD's practicing acupuncture without full licensure

>> is illegal, I am faced with mainland insurance companies that deny my

>> patients coverage because I'm not an MD/DO. I want to work with others

>> to change that. I can go through our Insurance Commission here locally

>> to show that in Hawaii this policy basically nullifies the patients

>> benefit as MD's can practice acupuncture (unless they are a L.Ac.),

>> but if I'm going to put forth the effort, perhaps a national effort

>> would effectively improve things for all L.Ac.'s wishing to

>> participate with insurance.

>>>

>>> Has anyone else out there successfully fought this issue or is

>> willing to work with me on this? Is anyone from the AAAOM working on

>> this issue already?

>>>

>>> Aloha,

>>> Joni Kroll, L.Ac.

>>>

>>>

>>>

>>>

>>>

>>>

>>>

>>>

>>>

>>> ________

>>> Windows Live™ Groups: Create an online spot for your favorite groups

>> to meet.

>>> http://windowslive.com/online/groups?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_groups_032009

>> <http://windowslive.com/online/groups?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_groups_032009>

>>>

>>>

[Guest guest]

Hey, I already do minor operations. If the md's want to own our field . fine.

Guess what, we can do what they do too. BUT law is on thier side, that's all.

With herbs and common sense, we could bring surgery to new levels of sucess. The

poor don't want to spend $500 a month for nothing. Neither do I.  An md can do

whatever they want. Learning basic surgical skills, so can I. If those people

want to practice acupuncture, I can practice surgery, fair is fair.   

 

--- On Wed, 3/11/09, heylaurag <heylaurag wrote:

heylaurag <heylaurag

Re: fighting the MD/DO only insurance coverage of acupuncture

Chinese Medicine

Wednesday, March 11, 2009, 12:28 AM

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Well, yeah, that's the problem--there is no treatment in the world

that is all good for everyone--including 5NP. I've seen people with qi and

blood defiency get insomnia from 5NP and others just get wiped out. I knew how

to reverse what was done. A social worker wouldn't (and, by the way, I am a

former social worker, so nothing against social workers).

 

 

 

Traditional_ Chinese_Medicine , Christopher Vedeler

<vedeler > wrote:

 

>

 

> In Arizona anyone can take the NADA training (long weekend) and become a

 

> NADA acupuncturist. They have to work under a L.Ac. however.

 

>

 

> I'm all for helping as many people as possible with acupuncture. Some

 

> acupuncture does not require 3000 hours of training. You don't always

 

> need to understand the ins and outs of meridians, crossing points, 5E

 

> and 6 Stage relationships, know 250 herbal formulas in pinyin, and be

 

> able to come up with a good Zang Fu diagnosis to treat simple conditions.

 

>

 

> If simple training can prepare someone to treat things like addiction

 

> and PTSD in mass then I'm all for it. If MD's, ND's and Chiroprators can

 

> successfully treat pain with acupuncture after 300 hours of training...

 

> good for them. Like I tell my students, the only issue I have with

 

> anyone doing acupuncture poorly is the those people who try it and get

 

> no results form an opinion of acupuncture that doesn't do it justice.

 

>

 

> Chris Vedeler L.Ac.

 

>

 

> heylaurag wrote:

 

> >

 

> >

 

> > I think one of the sources of our problems comes from this idea (that

 

> > we help perpectuate) that acupuncture is " all good " and that there can

 

> > be no negative side effect from the wrong treatment. I think we help

 

> > perpetuate this idea for a good reason--we are afraid of being sued.

 

> > But what happens is that people figure if it is as simple as sticking

 

> > needles in people and there are no potential problems why not let

 

> > anyone/everyone do it?

 

> >

 

> > In New Mexico it is legal for any provider--including social workers,

 

> > therapists etc--to do 5 needle protocol!! They are trying to pass this

 

> > same law in Washington. I find this shocking. If we would just admit

 

> > to the level of skill involved in what we do we might open ourselves

 

> > to being sued more but we would save our profession and increase our

 

> > level of respect. What would a social worker do with a patient who was

 

> > wiped out from 5 needle protocol because they are too deficient for a

 

> > treatment like that?

 

> >

 

> > Laura

 

> >

 

> >

 

> > Traditional_ Chinese_Medicine

 

> > <Traditional _Chinese_ Medicine% 40. com>, mike Bowser

 

> > <naturaldoc1@ > wrote:

 

> > >

 

> > >

 

> > > The Hinkey Bill would put acupuncture as a covered service under

 

> > Medicare, and this is what insurance companies use to decide coverage.

 

> > All states, big or small, well populated with LAc or no LAc, would

 

> > have coverage of our services almost overnight. It would take us many

 

> > years to do this on a state-by-state basis.

 

> > >

 

> > >

 

> > >

 

> > > I would love to help, just send me an email offlist and we can

 

> > discuss this more.

 

> > >

 

> > > Michael W. Bowser, LAc

 

> > >

 

> > >

 

> > >

 

> > >

 

> > >

 

> > >

 

> > <Traditional _Chinese_ Medicine% 40. com>

 

> > > acujoni@

 

> > > Tue, 10 Mar 2009 18:00:40 +0000

 

> > > fighting the MD/DO only insurance coverage of acupuncture

 

> > >

 

> > >

 

> > >

 

> > >

 

> > >

 

> > > I would like to connect up with other L.Ac.'s interested in

 

> > challenging and changing the policy of certain insurance companies who

 

> > only cover acupuncture when it is performed by an MD or DO. I live in

 

> > Hawaii and played a lead role in the 1993 legislation that does not

 

> > exempt MD's, DO's or DC's from our practice act (meaning anyone

 

> > wanting to practice acupuncture in Hawaii must graduate from

 

> > accredited TCM schools and pass the NCCAOM exam, no shortcuts). By the

 

> > way, every few years a group of MD's put forth a bill in the

 

> > legislature trying to reverse this, thus it is an onging issue. One of

 

> > their strongest arguments continues to be that Hawaii is the odd ball

 

> > state, the only state with this " restriction. "

 

> > >

 

> > > Even here, where MD's practicing acupuncture without full licensure

 

> > is illegal, I am faced with mainland insurance companies that deny my

 

> > patients coverage because I'm not an MD/DO. I want to work with others

 

> > to change that. I can go through our Insurance Commission here locally

 

> > to show that in Hawaii this policy basically nullifies the patients

 

> > benefit as MD's can practice acupuncture (unless they are a L.Ac.),

 

> > but if I'm going to put forth the effort, perhaps a national effort

 

> > would effectively improve things for all L.Ac.'s wishing to

 

> > participate with insurance.

 

> > >

 

> > > Has anyone else out there successfully fought this issue or is

 

> > willing to work with me on this? Is anyone from the AAAOM working on

 

> > this issue already?

 

> > >

 

> > > Aloha,

 

> > > Joni Kroll, L.Ac.

 

> > >

 

> > >

 

> > >

 

> > >

 

> > >

 

> > >

 

> > >

 

> > >

 

> > >

 

> > > ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _

 

> > > Windows Liveâ„¢ Groups: Create an online spot for your favorite groups

 

> > to meet.

 

> > > http://windowslive. com/online/ groups?ocid= TXT_TAGLM_ WL_groups_ 032009

 

> > <http://windowslive. com/online/ groups?ocid= TXT_TAGLM_ WL_groups_ 032009>

 

> > >

 

> > >

[Guest guest]

--- On Wed, 3/11/09, mystir <ykcul_ritsym wrote:

mystir <ykcul_ritsym

Re: fighting the MD/DO only insurance coverage of acupuncture

Chinese Medicine

Wednesday, March 11, 2009, 12:57 AM

 

Hey, I already do minor operations. If the md's want to own our field . fine.

Guess what, we can do what they do too. BUT law is on thier side, that's all.

With herbs and common sense, we could bring surgery to new levels of sucess. The

poor don't want to spend $500 a month for nothing. Neither do I.  An md can do

whatever they want. Learning basic surgical skills, so can I. If those people

want to practice acupuncture, I can practice surgery, fair is fair.   

 

--- On Wed, 3/11/09, heylaurag <heylaurag wrote:

heylaurag <heylaurag

Re: fighting the MD/DO only insurance coverage of acupuncture

Chinese Medicine

Wednesday,

March 11, 2009, 12:28 AM

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Well, yeah, that's the problem--there is no treatment in the world

that is all good for everyone--including 5NP. I've seen people with qi and

blood defiency get insomnia from 5NP and others just get wiped out. I knew how

to reverse what was done. A social worker wouldn't (and, by the way, I am a

former social worker, so nothing against social workers).

 

 

 

Traditional_ Chinese_Medicine , Christopher Vedeler

<vedeler > wrote:

 

>

 

> In Arizona anyone can take the NADA training (long weekend) and become a

 

> NADA acupuncturist. They have to work under a L.Ac. however.

 

>

 

> I'm all for helping as many people as possible with acupuncture. Some

 

> acupuncture does not require 3000 hours of training. You don't always

 

> need to understand the ins and outs of meridians, crossing points, 5E

 

> and 6 Stage relationships, know 250 herbal formulas in pinyin, and be

 

> able to come up with a good Zang Fu diagnosis to treat simple conditions.

 

>

 

> If simple training can prepare someone to treat things like addiction

 

> and PTSD in mass then I'm all for it. If MD's, ND's and Chiroprators can

 

> successfully treat pain with acupuncture after 300 hours of training...

 

> good for them. Like I tell my students, the only issue I have with

 

> anyone doing acupuncture poorly is the those people who try it and get

 

> no results form an opinion of acupuncture that doesn't do it justice.

 

>

 

> Chris Vedeler L.Ac.

 

>

 

> heylaurag wrote:

 

> >

 

> >

 

> > I think one of the sources of our problems comes from this idea (that

 

> > we help perpectuate) that acupuncture is " all good " and that there can

 

> > be no negative side effect from the wrong treatment. I think we help

 

> > perpetuate this idea for a good reason--we are afraid of being sued.

 

> > But what happens is that people figure if it is as simple as sticking

 

> > needles in people and there are no potential problems why not let

 

> > anyone/everyone do it?

 

> >

 

> > In New Mexico it is legal for any provider--including social workers,

 

> > therapists etc--to do 5 needle protocol!! They are trying to pass this

 

> > same law in Washington. I find this shocking. If we would just admit

 

> > to the level of skill involved in what we do we might open ourselves

 

> > to being sued more but we would save our profession and increase our

 

> > level of respect. What would a social worker do with a patient who was

 

> > wiped out from 5 needle protocol because they are too deficient for a

 

> > treatment like that?

 

> >

 

> > Laura

 

> >

 

> >

 

> > Traditional_ Chinese_Medicine

 

> > <Traditional _Chinese_ Medicine% 40. com>, mike Bowser

 

> > <naturaldoc1@ > wrote:

 

> > >

 

> > >

 

> > > The Hinkey Bill would put acupuncture as a covered service under

 

> > Medicare, and this is what insurance companies use to decide coverage.

 

> > All states, big or small, well populated with LAc or no LAc, would

 

> > have coverage of our services almost overnight. It would take us many

 

> > years to do this on a state-by-state basis.

 

> > >

 

> > >

 

> > >

 

> > > I would love to help, just send me an email offlist and we can

 

> > discuss this more.

 

> > >

 

> > > Michael W. Bowser, LAc

 

> > >

 

> > >

 

> > >

 

> > >

 

> > >

 

> > >

 

> > <Traditional _Chinese_ Medicine% 40. com>

 

> > > acujoni@

 

> > > Tue, 10 Mar 2009 18:00:40 +0000

 

> > > fighting the MD/DO only insurance coverage of acupuncture

 

> > >

 

> > >

 

> > >

 

> > >

 

> > >

 

> > > I would like to connect up with other L.Ac.'s interested in

 

> > challenging and changing the policy of certain insurance companies who

 

> > only cover acupuncture when it is performed by an MD or DO. I live in

 

> > Hawaii and played a lead role in the 1993 legislation that does not

 

> > exempt MD's, DO's or DC's from our practice act (meaning anyone

 

> > wanting to practice acupuncture in Hawaii must graduate from

 

> > accredited TCM schools and pass the NCCAOM exam, no shortcuts). By the

 

> > way, every few years a group of MD's put forth a bill in the

 

> > legislature trying to reverse this, thus it is an onging issue. One of

 

> > their strongest arguments continues to be that Hawaii is the odd ball

 

> > state, the only state with this " restriction. "

 

> > >

 

> > > Even here, where MD's practicing acupuncture without full licensure

 

> > is illegal, I am faced with mainland insurance companies that deny my

 

> > patients coverage because I'm not an MD/DO. I want to work with others

 

> > to change that. I can go through our Insurance Commission here locally

 

> > to show that in Hawaii this policy basically nullifies the patients

 

> > benefit as MD's can practice acupuncture (unless they are a L.Ac.),

 

> > but if I'm going to put forth the effort, perhaps a national effort

 

> > would effectively improve things for all L.Ac.'s wishing to

 

> > participate with insurance.

 

> > >

 

> > > Has anyone else out there successfully fought this issue or is

 

> > willing to work with me on this? Is anyone from the AAAOM working on

 

> > this issue already?

 

> > >

 

> > > Aloha,

 

> > > Joni Kroll, L.Ac.

 

> > >

 

> > >

 

> > >

 

> > >

 

> > >

 

> > >

 

> > >

 

> > >

 

> > >

 

> > > ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _

 

> > > Windows Liveâ„¢ Groups: Create an online spot for your favorite groups

 

> > to meet.

 

> > > http://windowslive. com/online/ groups?ocid= TXT_TAGLM_ WL_groups_ 032009

 

> > <http://windowslive. com/online/ groups?ocid= TXT_TAGLM_ WL_groups_ 032009>

 

> > >

 

> > >

[Guest guest]

and you will get 20$ per treatment

 

 

400 29th St. Suite 419

Oakland Ca 94609

 

 

 

alonmarcus

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Yeah, I kind of feel this way too.  Let the chiros, md's, acudetox

(counselors), physical therapists, dentists, learn acupuncture in a few weeks or

weekends.  Then let us crack bones, do manipulations, give counseling (and get

reimbursed), whiten teeth (just because we can - and we really don't know the

underlying issues of teeth and gum disease). 

 

 

 

Just as an add, I did speak with an MD acupuncturist in Maryland where I live. 

She really wanted to move away from conventional medicine and be a more holistic

doctor (laudable).  Now she had four patients at a time on electricity.  Took

the 300 hr course that is 2 weeks in the classroom (in the beginning and

clinical at the end - and distance videos, books the rest of the weeks).  She

took every insurance under the sun, and advised me not to.  When I told her

about some workshops I was going to, she added that she has done no continuing

education.  Yikes.  I haven't checked this rule out, but she clearly stated

that.  That is another horrifying piece.  Do they not have to add to this

quick education that they have already received?

 

 

 

And to Andrea, et al.

 

 

 

I agree we have to keep and eye on these folks and limit what they can do in our

profession, since I am sure they would do the same for us.  However, these

services are just so different than what we offer.  They don't come close, and

I am not just talking about the skills of the individual acupuncturist.  It is

the environment and overall way we treat patients.  We just have to get that

message out, and I am sure we can be much better marketers and communicators

than they are.

 

 

 

Anne

 

 

 

 

 

 

Anne C. Crowley, L.Ac., Dipl.Ac.

www.LaPlataAcupuncture.com

 

-

" mystir " <ykcul_ritsym

" Traditional "

<Chinese Medicine >

Wednesday, March 11, 2009 12:57:51 AM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern

Re:  fighting the MD/DO only insurance coverage of acupuncture

 

 

 

 

 

 

Hey, I already do minor operations. If the md's want to own our field . fine.

Guess what, we can do what they do too. BUT law is on thier side, that's all.

With herbs and common sense, we could bring surgery to new levels of sucess. The

poor don't want to spend $500 a month for nothing. Neither do I.  An md can do

whatever they want. Learning basic surgical skills, so can I. If those people

want to practice acupuncture, I can practice surgery, fair is fair.   

 

--- On Wed, 3/11/09, heylaurag < heylaurag > wrote:

heylaurag < heylaurag >

Re: fighting the MD/DO only insurance coverage of acupuncture

Chinese Medicine

Wednesday, March 11, 2009, 12:28 AM

 

Well, yeah, that's the problem--there is no treatment in the world that is all

good for everyone--including 5NP. I've seen people with qi and blood defiency

get insomnia from 5NP and others just get wiped out. I knew how to reverse what

was done. A social worker wouldn't (and, by the way, I am a former social

worker, so nothing against social workers).

 

Traditional_ Chinese_Medicine , Christopher Vedeler

<vedeler > wrote:

 

>

 

> In Arizona anyone can take the NADA training (long weekend) and become a

 

> NADA acupuncturist. They have to work under a L.Ac. however.

 

>

 

> I'm all for helping as many people as possible with acupuncture. Some

 

> acupuncture does not require 3000 hours of training. You don't always

 

> need to understand the ins and outs of meridians, crossing points, 5E

 

> and 6 Stage relationships, know 250 herbal formulas in pinyin, and be

 

> able to come up with a good Zang Fu diagnosis to treat simple conditions.

 

>

 

> If simple training can prepare someone to treat things like addiction

 

> and PTSD in mass then I'm all for it. If MD's, ND's and Chiroprators can

 

> successfully treat pain with acupuncture after 300 hours of training...

 

> good for them. Like I tell my students, the only issue I have with

 

> anyone doing acupuncture poorly is the those people who try it and get

 

> no results form an opinion of acupuncture that doesn't do it justice.

 

>

 

> Chris Vedeler L.Ac.

 

>

 

> heylaurag wrote:

 

> >

 

> >

 

> > I think one of the sources of our problems comes from this idea (that

 

> > we help perpectuate) that acupuncture is " all good " and that there can

 

> > be no negative side effect from the wrong treatment. I think we help

 

> > perpetuate this idea for a good reason--we are afraid of being sued.

 

> > But what happens is that people figure if it is as simple as sticking

 

> > needles in people and there are no potential problems why not let

 

> > anyone/everyone do it?

 

> >

 

> > In New Mexico it is legal for any provider--including social workers,

 

> > therapists etc--to do 5 needle protocol!! They are trying to pass this

 

> > same law in Washington. I find this shocking. If we would just admit

 

> > to the level of skill involved in what we do we might open ourselves

 

> > to being sued more but we would save our profession and increase our

 

> > level of respect. What would a social worker do with a patient who was

 

> > wiped out from 5 needle protocol because they are too deficient for a

 

> > treatment like that?

 

> >

 

> > Laura

 

> >

 

> >

 

> > Traditional_ Chinese_Medicine

 

> > <Traditional _Chinese_ Medicine% 40. com>, mike Bowser

 

> > <naturaldoc1@ > wrote:

 

> > >

 

> > >

 

> > > The Hinkey Bill would put acupuncture as a covered service under

 

> > Medicare, and this is what insurance companies use to decide coverage.

 

> > All states, big or small, well populated with LAc or no LAc, would

 

> > have coverage of our services almost overnight. It would take us many

 

> > years to do this on a state-by-state basis.

 

> > >

 

> > >

 

> > >

 

> > > I would love to help, just send me an email offlist and we can

 

> > discuss this more.

 

> > >

 

> > > Michael W. Bowser, LAc

 

> > >

 

> > >

 

> > >

 

> > >

 

> > >

 

> > >

 

> > <Traditional _Chinese_ Medicine% 40. com>

 

> > > acujoni@

 

> > > Tue, 10 Mar 2009 18:00:40 +0000

 

> > > fighting the MD/DO only insurance coverage of acupuncture

 

> > >

 

> > >

 

> > >

 

> > >

 

> > >

 

> > > I would like to connect up with other L.Ac.'s interested in

 

> > challenging and changing the policy of certain insurance companies who

 

> > only cover acupuncture when it is performed by an MD or DO. I live in

 

> > Hawaii and played a lead role in the 1993 legislation that does not

 

> > exempt MD's, DO's or DC's from our practice act (meaning anyone

 

> > wanting to practice acupuncture in Hawaii must graduate from

 

> > accredited TCM schools and pass the NCCAOM exam, no shortcuts). By the

 

> > way, every few years a group of MD's put forth a bill in the

 

> > legislature trying to reverse this, thus it is an onging issue. One of

 

> > their strongest arguments continues to be that Hawaii is the odd ball

 

> > state, the only state with this " restriction. "

 

> > >

 

> > > Even here, where MD's practicing acupuncture without full licensure

 

> > is illegal, I am faced with mainland insurance companies that deny my

 

> > patients coverage because I'm not an MD/DO. I want to work with others

 

> > to change that. I can go through our Insurance Commission here locally

 

> > to show that in Hawaii this policy basically nullifies the patients

 

> > benefit as MD's can practice acupuncture (unless they are a L.Ac.),

 

> > but if I'm going to put forth the effort, perhaps a national effort

 

> > would effectively improve things for all L.Ac.'s wishing to

 

> > participate with insurance.

 

> > >

 

> > > Has anyone else out there successfully fought this issue or is

 

> > willing to work with me on this? Is anyone from the AAAOM working on

 

> > this issue already?

 

> > >

 

> > > Aloha,

 

> > > Joni Kroll, L.Ac.

 

> > >

 

> > >

 

> > >

 

> > >

 

> > >

 

> > >

 

> > >

 

> > >

 

> > >

 

> > > ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _

 

> > > Windows Liveâ„¢ Groups: Create an online spot for your favorite groups

 

> > to meet.

 

> > > http://windowslive. com/online/ groups?ocid= TXT_TAGLM_ WL_groups_ 032009

 

> > < http://windowslive. com/online/ groups?ocid= TXT_TAGLM_ WL_groups_ 032009>

 

> > >

 

> > >

[Guest guest]

Michael,

 

No argument there. Simple problems are often complex underneath. My

issue is more to do with public education than our education. I don't

mind other less trained individuals doing acupuncture as long as the

public and the lesser practitioner knows about the hierarchy within our

field and that if the patients condition is complex or does not respond

to the Chiropractors attempt at acupuncture for example that they can

come to us.

 

To suggest that everyone who practices acupuncture must have L.Ac. level

training is like suggesting that everyone in Western medicine should be

an MD. In the western world there is a hierarchy including EMT's, RN's,

PA's and MD's.

 

I see this more as a turf war than anything real. We want our fair share

of insurance coverage. I'm all for that. But when we suggest that only

people with our level of training should be able to perform any

acupuncture at all then it is simply a turf war. If we get into a turf

war against Western medicine, we will loose. Our results should speak

for themselves. I have several friends that are MD's, chiropractors and

naturopaths and while they can perform acupuncture under their license

they recognize the value of referring to me.

 

Chris Vedeler L.Ac.

 

mike Bowser wrote:

> Chris,

> Sounds like a contradiction in terms to me. The fact is that what looks like

a simple problem can become a much more complex one. Educational levels are

meant to help you catch these problems and there simply is no way they can

understand them. At least in AZ, an LAc must supervise these guys. Too bad we

are not supervising the others as well. Having the training and experience is

what brings about better results.

>

> Michael W. Bowser, LAc

>

>> Chinese Medicine

>> vedeler

>> Tue, 10 Mar 2009 20:15:26 -0700

>> Re: fighting the MD/DO only insurance coverage of acupuncture

>>

>> In Arizona anyone can take the NADA training (long weekend) and become a

>> NADA acupuncturist. They have to work under a L.Ac. however.

>>

>> I'm all for helping as many people as possible with acupuncture. Some

>> acupuncture does not require 3000 hours of training. You don't always

>> need to understand the ins and outs of meridians, crossing points, 5E

>> and 6 Stage relationships, know 250 herbal formulas in pinyin, and be

>> able to come up with a good Zang Fu diagnosis to treat simple conditions.

>>

>> If simple training can prepare someone to treat things like addiction

>> and PTSD in mass then I'm all for it. If MD's, ND's and Chiroprators can

>> successfully treat pain with acupuncture after 300 hours of training...

>> good for them. Like I tell my students, the only issue I have with

>> anyone doing acupuncture poorly is the those people who try it and get

>> no results form an opinion of acupuncture that doesn't do it justice.

>>

>> Chris Vedeler L.Ac.

>>

>> heylaurag wrote:

>>

>>> I think one of the sources of our problems comes from this idea (that

>>> we help perpectuate) that acupuncture is " all good " and that there can

>>> be no negative side effect from the wrong treatment. I think we help

>>> perpetuate this idea for a good reason--we are afraid of being sued.

>>> But what happens is that people figure if it is as simple as sticking

>>> needles in people and there are no potential problems why not let

>>> anyone/everyone do it?

>>>

>>> In New Mexico it is legal for any provider--including social workers,

>>> therapists etc--to do 5 needle protocol!! They are trying to pass this

>>> same law in Washington. I find this shocking. If we would just admit

>>> to the level of skill involved in what we do we might open ourselves

>>> to being sued more but we would save our profession and increase our

>>> level of respect. What would a social worker do with a patient who was

>>> wiped out from 5 needle protocol because they are too deficient for a

>>> treatment like that?

>>>

>>> Laura

>>>

>>>

>>> Chinese Medicine

>>> <Chinese Medicine%40>, mike Bowser

>>> <naturaldoc1 wrote:

>>>

>>>> The Hinkey Bill would put acupuncture as a covered service under

>>>>

>>> Medicare, and this is what insurance companies use to decide coverage.

>>> All states, big or small, well populated with LAc or no LAc, would

>>> have coverage of our services almost overnight. It would take us many

>>> years to do this on a state-by-state basis.

>>>

>>>>

>>>> I would love to help, just send me an email offlist and we can

>>>>

>>> discuss this more.

>>>

>>>> Michael W. Bowser, LAc

>>>>

>>>>

>>>>

>>>>

>>>>

>>>> Chinese Medicine

>>>>

>>> <Chinese Medicine%40>

>>>

>>>> acujoni

>>>> Tue, 10 Mar 2009 18:00:40 +0000

>>>> fighting the MD/DO only insurance coverage of acupuncture

>>>>

>>>>

>>>>

>>>>

>>>>

>>>> I would like to connect up with other L.Ac.'s interested in

>>>>

>>> challenging and changing the policy of certain insurance companies who

>>> only cover acupuncture when it is performed by an MD or DO. I live in

>>> Hawaii and played a lead role in the 1993 legislation that does not

>>> exempt MD's, DO's or DC's from our practice act (meaning anyone

>>> wanting to practice acupuncture in Hawaii must graduate from

>>> accredited TCM schools and pass the NCCAOM exam, no shortcuts). By the

>>> way, every few years a group of MD's put forth a bill in the

>>> legislature trying to reverse this, thus it is an onging issue. One of

>>> their strongest arguments continues to be that Hawaii is the odd ball

>>> state, the only state with this " restriction. "

>>>

>>>> Even here, where MD's practicing acupuncture without full licensure

>>>>

>>> is illegal, I am faced with mainland insurance companies that deny my

>>> patients coverage because I'm not an MD/DO. I want to work with others

>>> to change that. I can go through our Insurance Commission here locally

>>> to show that in Hawaii this policy basically nullifies the patients

>>> benefit as MD's can practice acupuncture (unless they are a L.Ac.),

>>> but if I'm going to put forth the effort, perhaps a national effort

>>> would effectively improve things for all L.Ac.'s wishing to

>>> participate with insurance.

>>>

>>>> Has anyone else out there successfully fought this issue or is

>>>>

>>> willing to work with me on this? Is anyone from the AAAOM working on

>>> this issue already?

>>>

>>>> Aloha,

>>>> Joni Kroll, L.Ac.

>>>>

>>>>

>>>>

>>>>

>>>>

>>>>

>>>>

>>>>

>>>>

>>>> ________

>>>> Windows Live™ Groups: Create an online spot for your favorite groups

>>>>

>>> to meet.

>>>

>>>> http://windowslive.com/online/groups?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_groups_032009

>>>>

>>> <http://windowslive.com/online/groups?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_groups_032009>

>>>

>>>>

[Guest guest]

Chris,

Many of things you mention are not real but imaginary. To have a level playing

field with full disclosure is great but currently it would take an act of

Congress to enact. Odd that in some states we have to disclose our acupuncture

education and certain parts of the statutes say we must include risks/hazards of

care, etc. Now this sounds all nice but when was the last time you heard the

pediatrician say anything about the mercury toxicity before they gave the child

a flu shot (yes it still is in these)? We are far from having any fairness and

many of these regulations are about control and power. You may see this as a

turf war but in reality this is about setting up boundaries for an emerging

profession and there needs to be standards. There is no reason why our

profession should be the only one that allows for such variability in licensing

(100-300 hr Chiro, 100-0 hr MD/DO/PT, etc).

BTW, surgeons or MD's tend to all have the same level of training in their areas

of expertise so to imply that it is not found in western medicine is inaccurate

and we need to compare within the same fields. Maybe our only hope of

differentiation is other provider education and patient education through

various forms of advertising. Or we can start looking at legal challenges

and/or legislation similar to what Hawaii has enacted. We cannot forget that

Hawaii was able to take acupuncture from these others and other states like CA

and OR or WA have recently had legislation designed similarly. Yes, we can make

changes and acceptance of the status quo is not really an option for our future.

I am glad that you are getting referrals from these others, as it really should

be. In reality though, many more of these others are failing to get results and

making acupuncture appear less effective.

 

Michael W. Bowser, LAc

 

> Chinese Medicine

> vedeler

> Wed, 11 Mar 2009 07:17:31 -0700

> Re: fighting the MD/DO only insurance coverage of acupuncture

>

> Michael,

>

> No argument there. Simple problems are often complex underneath. My

> issue is more to do with public education than our education. I don't

> mind other less trained individuals doing acupuncture as long as the

> public and the lesser practitioner knows about the hierarchy within our

> field and that if the patients condition is complex or does not respond

> to the Chiropractors attempt at acupuncture for example that they can

> come to us.

>

> To suggest that everyone who practices acupuncture must have L.Ac. level

> training is like suggesting that everyone in Western medicine should be

> an MD. In the western world there is a hierarchy including EMT's, RN's,

> PA's and MD's.

>

> I see this more as a turf war than anything real. We want our fair share

> of insurance coverage. I'm all for that. But when we suggest that only

> people with our level of training should be able to perform any

> acupuncture at all then it is simply a turf war. If we get into a turf

> war against Western medicine, we will loose. Our results should speak

> for themselves. I have several friends that are MD's, chiropractors and

> naturopaths and while they can perform acupuncture under their license

> they recognize the value of referring to me.

>

> Chris Vedeler L.Ac.

>

> mike Bowser wrote:

>> Chris,

>> Sounds like a contradiction in terms to me. The fact is that what looks like

a simple problem can become a much more complex one. Educational levels are

meant to help you catch these problems and there simply is no way they can

understand them. At least in AZ, an LAc must supervise these guys. Too bad we

are not supervising the others as well. Having the training and experience is

what brings about better results.

>>

>> Michael W. Bowser, LAc

>>

>>> Chinese Medicine

>>> vedeler

>>> Tue, 10 Mar 2009 20:15:26 -0700

>>> Re: fighting the MD/DO only insurance coverage of

acupuncture

>>>

>>> In Arizona anyone can take the NADA training (long weekend) and become a

>>> NADA acupuncturist. They have to work under a L.Ac. however.

>>>

>>> I'm all for helping as many people as possible with acupuncture. Some

>>> acupuncture does not require 3000 hours of training. You don't always

>>> need to understand the ins and outs of meridians, crossing points, 5E

>>> and 6 Stage relationships, know 250 herbal formulas in pinyin, and be

>>> able to come up with a good Zang Fu diagnosis to treat simple conditions.

>>>

>>> If simple training can prepare someone to treat things like addiction

>>> and PTSD in mass then I'm all for it. If MD's, ND's and Chiroprators can

>>> successfully treat pain with acupuncture after 300 hours of training...

>>> good for them. Like I tell my students, the only issue I have with

>>> anyone doing acupuncture poorly is the those people who try it and get

>>> no results form an opinion of acupuncture that doesn't do it justice.

>>>

>>> Chris Vedeler L.Ac.

>>>

>>> heylaurag wrote:

>>>

>>>> I think one of the sources of our problems comes from this idea (that

>>>> we help perpectuate) that acupuncture is " all good " and that there can

>>>> be no negative side effect from the wrong treatment. I think we help

>>>> perpetuate this idea for a good reason--we are afraid of being sued.

>>>> But what happens is that people figure if it is as simple as sticking

>>>> needles in people and there are no potential problems why not let

>>>> anyone/everyone do it?

>>>>

>>>> In New Mexico it is legal for any provider--including social workers,

>>>> therapists etc--to do 5 needle protocol!! They are trying to pass this

>>>> same law in Washington. I find this shocking. If we would just admit

>>>> to the level of skill involved in what we do we might open ourselves

>>>> to being sued more but we would save our profession and increase our

>>>> level of respect. What would a social worker do with a patient who was

>>>> wiped out from 5 needle protocol because they are too deficient for a

>>>> treatment like that?

>>>>

>>>> Laura

>>>>

>>>>

>>>> Chinese Medicine

>>>> <Chinese Medicine%40>, mike Bowser

>>>> <naturaldoc1 wrote:

>>>>

>>>>> The Hinkey Bill would put acupuncture as a covered service under

>>>>>

>>>> Medicare, and this is what insurance companies use to decide coverage.

>>>> All states, big or small, well populated with LAc or no LAc, would

>>>> have coverage of our services almost overnight. It would take us many

>>>> years to do this on a state-by-state basis.

>>>>

>>>>>

>>>>> I would love to help, just send me an email offlist and we can

>>>>>

>>>> discuss this more.

>>>>

>>>>> Michael W. Bowser, LAc

>>>>>

>>>>>

>>>>>

>>>>>

>>>>>

>>>>> Chinese Medicine

>>>>>

>>>> <Chinese Medicine%40>

>>>>

>>>>> acujoni

>>>>> Tue, 10 Mar 2009 18:00:40 +0000

>>>>> fighting the MD/DO only insurance coverage of acupuncture

>>>>>

>>>>>

>>>>>

>>>>>

>>>>>

>>>>> I would like to connect up with other L.Ac.'s interested in

>>>>>

>>>> challenging and changing the policy of certain insurance companies who

>>>> only cover acupuncture when it is performed by an MD or DO. I live in

>>>> Hawaii and played a lead role in the 1993 legislation that does not

>>>> exempt MD's, DO's or DC's from our practice act (meaning anyone

>>>> wanting to practice acupuncture in Hawaii must graduate from

>>>> accredited TCM schools and pass the NCCAOM exam, no shortcuts). By the

>>>> way, every few years a group of MD's put forth a bill in the

>>>> legislature trying to reverse this, thus it is an onging issue. One of

>>>> their strongest arguments continues to be that Hawaii is the odd ball

>>>> state, the only state with this " restriction. "

>>>>

>>>>> Even here, where MD's practicing acupuncture without full licensure

>>>>>

>>>> is illegal, I am faced with mainland insurance companies that deny my

>>>> patients coverage because I'm not an MD/DO. I want to work with others

>>>> to change that. I can go through our Insurance Commission here locally

>>>> to show that in Hawaii this policy basically nullifies the patients

>>>> benefit as MD's can practice acupuncture (unless they are a L.Ac.),

>>>> but if I'm going to put forth the effort, perhaps a national effort

>>>> would effectively improve things for all L.Ac.'s wishing to

>>>> participate with insurance.

>>>>

>>>>> Has anyone else out there successfully fought this issue or is

>>>>>

>>>> willing to work with me on this? Is anyone from the AAAOM working on

>>>> this issue already?

>>>>

>>>>> Aloha,

>>>>> Joni Kroll, L.Ac.

>>>>>

>>>>>

>>>>>

>>>>>

>>>>>

>>>>>

>>>>>

>>>>>

>>>>>

>>>>> ________

>>>>> Windows Live™ Groups: Create an online spot for your favorite groups

>>>>>

>>>> to meet.

>>>>

>>>>> http://windowslive.com/online/groups?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_groups_032009

>>>>>

>>>> <http://windowslive.com/online/groups?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_groups_032009>

>>>>

>>>>>

[Guest guest]

Christopher:

In Arizona anyone can take the NADA training (long weekend) and become a

NADA acupuncturist. They have to work under a L.Ac. however.

 

I'm all for helping as many people as possible with acupuncture. Some

acupuncture does not require 3000 hours of training. You don't always

need to understand the ins and outs of meridians, crossing points, 5E

and 6 Stage relationships, know 250 herbal formulas in pinyin, and be

able to come up with a good Zang Fu diagnosis to treat simple conditions.

 

If simple training can prepare someone to treat things like addiction

and PTSD in mass then I'm all for it.

 

i agree with your position here, in theory. if people can get better with

a simple tx, they will help to mainstream acu, by reaching out to the masses

and singing our praises. and i believe the public is beginning to

understand that 'oriental medicine' is the way to get a qualified

practitioner. i'm getting more and more calls from folks asking if i

practice 'oriental medicine'. we need to work, through our websites and

what publicity/news opportunities we have, on explaining what our

edu/backgrounds involve. for instance, on the faqs page of my website, i

include a doc showing the difference in edu btwn a LAc and a medical

acupuncturist. this is is also my arguement in differentiating my boutique

practice from community style. when someone calls with simple back pain and

financial woes, community style may be an appropriate option. but i assert

to potential patients that a complicated condition requires more face time

and individualized attention than what can be provided in a typical

community setting. my point here is that their are many different kinds of

patients, and different practice styles that are appropriate for patient A

may not be optimal for patient B.

 

kath

 

 

On Tue, Mar 10, 2009 at 11:15 PM, Christopher Vedeler <vedeler

> wrote:

 

> In Arizona anyone can take the NADA training (long weekend) and become a

> NADA acupuncturist. They have to work under a L.Ac. however.

>

> I'm all for helping as many people as possible with acupuncture. Some

> acupuncture does not require 3000 hours of training. You don't always

> need to understand the ins and outs of meridians, crossing points, 5E

> and 6 Stage relationships, know 250 herbal formulas in pinyin, and be

> able to come up with a good Zang Fu diagnosis to treat simple conditions.

>

> If simple training can prepare someone to treat things like addiction

> and PTSD in mass then I'm all for it. If MD's, ND's and Chiroprators can

> successfully treat pain with acupuncture after 300 hours of training...

> good for them. Like I tell my students, the only issue I have with

> anyone doing acupuncture poorly is the those people who try it and get

> no results form an opinion of acupuncture that doesn't do it justice.

>

> Chris Vedeler L.Ac.

>

> heylaurag wrote:

> >

> >

> > I think one of the sources of our problems comes from this idea (that

> > we help perpectuate) that acupuncture is " all good " and that there can

> > be no negative side effect from the wrong treatment. I think we help

> > perpetuate this idea for a good reason--we are afraid of being sued.

> > But what happens is that people figure if it is as simple as sticking

> > needles in people and there are no potential problems why not let

> > anyone/everyone do it?

> >

> > In New Mexico it is legal for any provider--including social workers,

> > therapists etc--to do 5 needle protocol!! They are trying to pass this

> > same law in Washington. I find this shocking. If we would just admit

> > to the level of skill involved in what we do we might open ourselves

> > to being sued more but we would save our profession and increase our

> > level of respect. What would a social worker do with a patient who was

> > wiped out from 5 needle protocol because they are too deficient for a

> > treatment like that?

> >

> > Laura

> >

> >

> > Chinese Medicine

> >

<Chinese Medicine%40<Traditional_Chinese_Medic\

ine%2540>>,

> mike Bowser

> > <naturaldoc1 wrote:

> > >

> > >

> > > The Hinkey Bill would put acupuncture as a covered service under

> > Medicare, and this is what insurance companies use to decide coverage.

> > All states, big or small, well populated with LAc or no LAc, would

> > have coverage of our services almost overnight. It would take us many

> > years to do this on a state-by-state basis.

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > > I would love to help, just send me an email offlist and we can

> > discuss this more.

> > >

> > > Michael W. Bowser, LAc

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > > Chinese Medicine

> >

<Chinese Medicine%40<Traditional_Chinese_Medic\

ine%2540>

> >

> > > acujoni

> > > Tue, 10 Mar 2009 18:00:40 +0000

> > > fighting the MD/DO only insurance coverage of

> acupuncture

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > > I would like to connect up with other L.Ac.'s interested in

> > challenging and changing the policy of certain insurance companies who

> > only cover acupuncture when it is performed by an MD or DO. I live in

> > Hawaii and played a lead role in the 1993 legislation that does not

> > exempt MD's, DO's or DC's from our practice act (meaning anyone

> > wanting to practice acupuncture in Hawaii must graduate from

> > accredited TCM schools and pass the NCCAOM exam, no shortcuts). By the

> > way, every few years a group of MD's put forth a bill in the

> > legislature trying to reverse this, thus it is an onging issue. One of

> > their strongest arguments continues to be that Hawaii is the odd ball

> > state, the only state with this " restriction. "

> > >

> > > Even here, where MD's practicing acupuncture without full licensure

> > is illegal, I am faced with mainland insurance companies that deny my

> > patients coverage because I'm not an MD/DO. I want to work with others

> > to change that. I can go through our Insurance Commission here locally

> > to show that in Hawaii this policy basically nullifies the patients

> > benefit as MD's can practice acupuncture (unless they are a L.Ac.),

> > but if I'm going to put forth the effort, perhaps a national effort

> > would effectively improve things for all L.Ac.'s wishing to

> > participate with insurance.

> > >

> > > Has anyone else out there successfully fought this issue or is

> > willing to work with me on this? Is anyone from the AAAOM working on

> > this issue already?

> > >

> > > Aloha,

> > > Joni Kroll, L.Ac.

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > > ________

> > > Windows Live™ Groups: Create an online spot for your favorite groups

> > to meet.

> > > http://windowslive.com/online/groups?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_groups_032009

> > <http://windowslive.com/online/groups?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_groups_032009>

> > >

> > >

[Guest guest]

Hi Joni,

I want to say thank you for the work you do in Hawaii and for all your

professional promotions of our field. I am a practicing Acupuncturist in Hawaii

and California and I very much appreciate your hard work. I believe in

Traditional as a system of healing not a bunch of isolated

modalities. I would like to do my part in working with you and other L.Acs who

believe in the preservation of TCM as a holistic system and want to keep it (and

in many cases take it back from the chop shop) as a honorable system of medicine

practiced by fully trained practitioners.

Much Aloha,

Jenna Murad L.Ac.

 

Chinese Medicine , " Joni Kroll, D.Ac. "

<acujoni wrote:

>

> I would like to connect up with other L.Ac.'s interested in challenging and

changing the policy of certain insurance companies who only cover acupuncture

when it is performed by an MD or DO. I live in Hawaii and played a lead role in

the 1993 legislation that does not exempt MD's, DO's or DC's from our practice

act (meaning anyone wanting to practice acupuncture in Hawaii must graduate from

accredited TCM schools and pass the NCCAOM exam, no shortcuts). By the way,

every few years a group of MD's put forth a bill in the legislature trying to

reverse this, thus it is an onging issue. One of their strongest arguments

continues to be that Hawaii is the odd ball state, the only state with this

" restriction. "

>

> Even here, where MD's practicing acupuncture without full licensure is

illegal, I am faced with mainland insurance companies that deny my patients

coverage because I'm not an MD/DO. I want to work with others to change that.

I can go through our Insurance Commission here locally to show that in Hawaii

this policy basically nullifies the patients benefit as MD's can practice

acupuncture (unless they are a L.Ac.), but if I'm going to put forth the effort,

perhaps a national effort would effectively improve things for all L.Ac.'s

wishing to participate with insurance.

>

> Has anyone else out there successfully fought this issue or is willing to work

with me on this? Is anyone from the AAAOM working on this issue already?

>

> Aloha,

> Joni Kroll, L.Ac.

>