medicaid covering acupuncture: pros & cons?

[Guest guest]

i noticed that aaaom is listing one of their primary goals as getting

medicaid coverage for acupuncture. i'm wondering what you all see as the

pros and cons of this issue?

 

kath

 

--

Kath Bartlett, LAc, MS, BA UCLA

Oriental Medicine

Experienced, Dedicated, Effective

 

Kath's Blog about , Healthy Living & Spirituality:

http://acukath.blogspot.com/

 

Flying Dragon Liniment: Effective pain relief for muscles & joints

Formulated by Kath Bartlett, Traditional Chinese Herbalist

Available at Asheville Center for :

www.FlyingDragonLiniment.com

 

and from the following supply companies:

Kamwo Herbal Pharmacy: NY - Chinatown

https://www.kamwo.com/shop/product.php?productid=17442 & cat=0 & page=1

 

Golden Needle Acupuncture, Herbal & Medical Supply - Candler, NC

http://www.goldenneedleonline.com/index.php?page=categories & category=14 & vendor= & \

product=5554 & pg=

 

 

Asheville Center For

70 Woodfin Place, Suite West Wing Two

Asheville, NC 28801 828.258.2777

kbartlett

www.AcupunctureAsheville.com

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Kath,

Since coverage of many programs allows for greater opportunity for patient

participation, it makes sense to be included. Obviously, some think we should

all be focused upon cash practices, which is great but the rest of the public is

not there with us. I think we need to be included otherwise when universal

coverage comes, we may be sitting on the sidelines and others may be getting the

business as patient's do follow their economic noses when choosing a provider.

Just my opinion.

 

Michael W. Bowser, LAc

alumni

CC: Chinese Traditional Medicine

acukath

Fri, 6 Mar 2009 19:14:01 -0500

medicaid covering acupuncture: pros & cons?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

i noticed that aaaom is listing one of their primary goals as

getting

 

medicaid coverage for acupuncture. i'm wondering what you all see as the

 

pros and cons of this issue?

 

 

 

kath

 

 

 

--

 

Kath Bartlett, LAc, MS, BA UCLA

 

Oriental Medicine

 

Experienced, Dedicated, Effective

 

 

 

Kath's Blog about , Healthy Living & Spirituality:

 

http://acukath.blogspot.com/

 

 

 

Flying Dragon Liniment: Effective pain relief for muscles & joints

 

Formulated by Kath Bartlett, Traditional Chinese Herbalist

 

Available at Asheville Center for :

 

www.FlyingDragonLiniment.com

 

 

 

and from the following supply companies:

 

Kamwo Herbal Pharmacy: NY - Chinatown

 

https://www.kamwo.com/shop/product.php?productid=17442 & cat=0 & page=1

 

 

 

Golden Needle Acupuncture, Herbal & Medical Supply - Candler, NC

 

http://www.goldenneedleonline.com/index.php?page=categories & category=14 & vendor= & \

product=5554 & pg=

 

 

 

Asheville Center For

 

70 Woodfin Place, Suite West Wing Two

 

Asheville, NC 28801 828.258.2777

 

kbartlett

 

www.AcupunctureAsheville.com

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Kath:

 

 

 

I know this is a hot button among us.  I dont' want to be forced to participate

in this program.  That is my concern.  And somehow I think that is what comes

of it.  If I am, then my seniors on the program will be treated in a Community

Acupuncture setting.  Right now, my business is not set up to incorporate

another service like that.  If acuman is right, and we have to take all

patients at that rate, then my whole business would be community acupuncture. 

I do something very different now that I really like and my clients like.  I

would hate to be forced into this.  And quite frankly if the frying pan gets to

hot - there are other healing modalites that I can move into - that require none

of this.  What I don't want is to run my shop like a busy chiro or MD.  I have

yet to find one of these offices when I can actually relax and absorb the

treatment.

 

 

 

Anne 

 

Anne C. Crowley, L.Ac., Dipl.Ac.

www.LaPlataAcupuncture.com

 

-

" "

" PCOM Alumni " <alumni

Cc: " TCM List " <Chinese Traditional Medicine >

Friday, March 6, 2009 7:14:01 PM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern

 medicaid covering acupuncture: pros & cons?

 

 

 

 

 

 

i noticed that aaaom is listing one of their primary goals as getting

medicaid coverage for acupuncture. i'm wondering what you all see as the

pros and cons of this issue?

 

kath

 

--

 

Oriental Medicine

Experienced, Dedicated, Effective

 

Kath's Blog about , Healthy Living & Spirituality:

http://acukath.blogspot.com/

 

Flying Dragon Liniment: Effective pain relief for muscles & joints

Formulated by Kath Bartlett, Traditional Chinese Herbalist

Available at Asheville Center for :

www.FlyingDragonLiniment.com

 

and from the following supply companies:

Kamwo Herbal Pharmacy: NY - Chinatown

https://www.kamwo.com/shop/product.php?productid=17442 & cat=0 & page=1

 

Golden Needle Acupuncture, Herbal & Medical Supply - Candler, NC

http://www.goldenneedleonline.com/index.php?page=categories & category=14 & vendor= & \

product=5554 & pg=

 

Asheville Center For

70 Woodfin Place, Suite West Wing Two

Asheville, NC 28801 828.258.2777

kbartlett

www.AcupunctureAsheville.com

 

 

[Guest guest]

We will be able to erect signs outside our practices like the ones outside

MacDonald's - " Billions Served "

 

 

Chinese Medicine , " "

wrote:

>

> i noticed that aaaom is listing one of their primary goals as getting

> medicaid coverage for acupuncture. i'm wondering what you all see as the

> pros and cons of this issue?

>

> kath

>

> --

> Kath Bartlett, LAc, MS, BA UCLA

> Oriental Medicine

> Experienced, Dedicated, Effective

>

[Guest guest]

Anne,

 

Like you, I recognize there are other health-related modalities I can side-step

into.  I have been thinking about this increasingly over the past year, as I see

more and more " medical acupuncturists " co-opting our medicine.  I would not be

surprised if, in the next 5-10 years, we find the practice of acupuncture the

sole providence MDs, DOs, DCs and NDs.  I believe bringing acupuncture into the

medicare/medicaid system is a step in that very direction.

 

Andrea Beth

 

Traditional Oriental Medicine

Happy Hours in the CALM Center

1770 E. Villa Drive, Suite 5

Cottonwood, AZ  86326

(928) 274-1373

 

 

--- On Sat, 3/7/09, Anne Crowley <anne.crowley wrote:

Anne Crowley <anne.crowley

Re: medicaid covering acupuncture: pros & cons?

" Traditional "

<Chinese Medicine >

Saturday, March 7, 2009, 6:03 AM

 

 

Kath:

 

 

 

I know this is a hot button among us.  I dont' want to be forced to

participate in this program.  That is my concern.  And somehow I think that is

what comes of it.  If I am, then my seniors on the program will be treated in a

Community Acupuncture setting.  Right now, my business is not set up to

incorporate another service like that.  If acuman is right, and we have to take

all patients at that rate, then my whole business would be community

acupuncture.  I do something very different now that I really like and my

clients like.  I would hate to be forced into this.  And quite frankly if the

frying pan gets to hot - there are other healing modalites that I can move into

- that require none of this.  What I don't want is to run my shop like a

busy chiro or MD.  I have yet to find one of these offices when I can actually

relax and absorb the treatment.

 

 

 

Anne 

 

Anne C. Crowley, L.Ac., Dipl.Ac.

www.LaPlataAcupuncture.com

 

-

" "

" PCOM Alumni " <alumni

Cc: " TCM List " <Chinese Traditional Medicine >

Friday, March 6, 2009 7:14:01 PM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern

 medicaid covering acupuncture: pros & cons?

 

 

 

 

 

 

i noticed that aaaom is listing one of their primary goals as getting

medicaid coverage for acupuncture. i'm wondering what you all see as the

pros and cons of this issue?

 

kath

 

--

 

Oriental Medicine

Experienced, Dedicated, Effective

 

Kath's Blog about , Healthy Living & Spirituality:

http://acukath.blogspot.com/

 

Flying Dragon Liniment: Effective pain relief for muscles & joints

Formulated by Kath Bartlett, Traditional Chinese Herbalist

Available at Asheville Center for :

www.FlyingDragonLiniment.com

 

and from the following supply companies:

Kamwo Herbal Pharmacy: NY - Chinatown

https://www.kamwo.com/shop/product.php?productid=17442 & cat=0 & page=1

 

Golden Needle Acupuncture, Herbal & Medical Supply - Candler, NC

http://www.goldenneedleonline.com/index.php?page=categories & category=14 & vendor= & \

product=5554 & pg=

 

 

Asheville Center For

70 Woodfin Place, Suite West Wing Two

Asheville, NC 28801 828.258.2777

kbartlett

www.AcupunctureAsheville.com

 

 

[Guest guest]

I would disagree with this statement and ask us to consider why is that we might

want to be left outside of the healthcare arena? I would like to know where is

it that this idea is coming from (fear of change, avoidance of conflict, fact or

what)? As there has been no plan in the healthcare reform that I have seen that

attempts this, I must wonder why do we bur into it? Do we want our profession

to remain small? I only ask because we constantly hear about the shortage of

practitioners to give treatments.

 

Michael W. Bowser, LAc

Chinese Medicine

 

Sat, 7 Mar 2009 12:31:43 -0800

Re: medicaid covering acupuncture: pros & cons?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Anne,

 

 

 

Like you, I recognize there are other health-related modalities I can side-step

into. I have been thinking about this increasingly over the past year, as I see

more and more " medical acupuncturists " co-opting our medicine. I would not be

surprised if, in the next 5-10 years, we find the practice of acupuncture the

sole providence MDs, DOs, DCs and NDs. I believe bringing acupuncture into the

medicare/medicaid system is a step in that very direction.

 

 

 

Andrea Beth

 

 

 

Traditional Oriental Medicine

 

Happy Hours in the CALM Center

 

1770 E. Villa Drive, Suite 5

 

Cottonwood, AZ 86326

 

(928) 274-1373

 

 

 

--- On Sat, 3/7/09, Anne Crowley <anne.crowley wrote:

 

Anne Crowley <anne.crowley

 

Re: medicaid covering acupuncture: pros & cons?

 

" Traditional "

<Chinese Medicine >

 

Saturday, March 7, 2009, 6:03 AM

 

 

 

Kath:

 

 

 

I know this is a hot button among us. I dont' want to be forced to

 

participate in this program. That is my concern. And somehow I think that is

 

what comes of it. If I am, then my seniors on the program will be treated in a

 

Community Acupuncture setting. Right now, my business is not set up to

 

incorporate another service like that. If acuman is right, and we have to take

 

all patients at that rate, then my whole business would be community

 

acupuncture. I do something very different now that I really like and my

 

clients like. I would hate to be forced into this. And quite frankly if the

 

frying pan gets to hot - there are other healing modalites that I can move into

 

- that require none of this. What I don't want is to run my shop like a

 

busy chiro or MD. I have yet to find one of these offices when I can actually

 

relax and absorb the treatment.

 

 

 

Anne

 

 

 

Anne C. Crowley, L.Ac., Dipl.Ac.

 

www.LaPlataAcupuncture.com

 

 

 

-

 

" "

 

" PCOM Alumni " <alumni

 

Cc: " TCM List " <Chinese Traditional Medicine >

 

Friday, March 6, 2009 7:14:01 PM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern

 

medicaid covering acupuncture: pros & cons?

 

 

 

i noticed that aaaom is listing one of their primary goals as getting

 

medicaid coverage for acupuncture. i'm wondering what you all see as the

 

pros and cons of this issue?

 

 

 

kath

 

 

 

--

 

 

 

Oriental Medicine

 

Experienced, Dedicated, Effective

 

 

 

Kath's Blog about , Healthy Living & Spirituality:

 

http://acukath.blogspot.com/

 

 

 

Flying Dragon Liniment: Effective pain relief for muscles & joints

 

Formulated by Kath Bartlett, Traditional Chinese Herbalist

 

Available at Asheville Center for :

 

www.FlyingDragonLiniment.com

 

 

 

and from the following supply companies:

 

Kamwo Herbal Pharmacy: NY - Chinatown

 

https://www.kamwo.com/shop/product.php?productid=17442 & cat=0 & page=1

 

 

 

Golden Needle Acupuncture, Herbal & Medical Supply - Candler, NC

 

http://www.goldenneedleonline.com/index.php?page=categories & category=14 & vendor= & \

product=5554 & pg=

 

 

 

Asheville Center For

 

70 Woodfin Place, Suite West Wing Two

 

Asheville, NC 28801 828.258.2777

 

kbartlett

 

www.AcupunctureAsheville.com

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

I think that most of us know that the acupuncture profession is suffering from

an identity crisis and we remain very small as far as healthcare players. On

the one hand, we want to have autonomy and work outside the medical industry but

then again we share common patients and public interest is growing as afar as

usage of acupuncture for medical problems. It would be nice if we were

eventually the ones that were considered the authority on this medicine.

 

I happen to think that we can do both if we are smart about it. Inclusion in

participation will not be mandatory, there will still be lots of cash practices

and we will be paid something for people that otherwise will not come to us.

Think about it, millions more will be benefited by this move. We need more

options.

 

Michael W. Bowser, LAc

 

Chinese Medicine

daniel.schulman

Sat, 7 Mar 2009 13:37:02 +0000

Re: medicaid covering acupuncture: pros & cons?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

We will be able to erect signs outside our practices like the ones

outside MacDonald's - " Billions Served "

 

 

 

Chinese Medicine , " "

wrote:

 

>

 

> i noticed that aaaom is listing one of their primary goals as getting

 

> medicaid coverage for acupuncture. i'm wondering what you all see as the

 

> pros and cons of this issue?

 

>

 

> kath

 

>

 

> --

 

> Kath Bartlett, LAc, MS, BA UCLA

 

> Oriental Medicine

 

> Experienced, Dedicated, Effective

 

>

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

_______________

Windows Live™ Contacts: Organize your contact list.

http://windowslive.com/connect/post/marcusatmicrosoft.spaces.live.com-Blog-cns!5\

03D1D86EBB2B53C!2285.entry?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_UGC_Contacts_032009

 

 

[Guest guest]

I kind of agree with you Mike. I enjoy relaxed treatments, no hurry, focus yi,

talk. That's more down home, and I am comfortable. Not comfortable having

someone over you asking,'why did you spend over eight minutes with that

patient?'.  Universal healthcare will come, most want it, and the underlying

sense of that progress, will include us if we show we want to be part.

 Still, our medicine is so broad and diverse, during that transition, we need

to make sure room, freedom, for all the ways practitioners want to deliver is

protected. It's early.  

 

--- On Sun, 3/8/09, mike Bowser <naturaldoc1 wrote:

mike Bowser <naturaldoc1

RE: Re: medicaid covering acupuncture: pros & cons?

Chinese Traditional Medicine

Sunday, March 8, 2009, 10:19 AM

 

I think that most of us know that the acupuncture profession is suffering from

an identity crisis and we remain very small as far as healthcare players. On

the one hand, we want to have autonomy and work outside the medical industry but

then again we share common patients and public interest is growing as afar as

usage of acupuncture for medical problems. It would be nice if we were

eventually the ones that were considered the authority on this medicine.

 

I happen to think that we can do both if we are smart about it. Inclusion in

participation will not be mandatory, there will still be lots of cash practices

and we will be paid something for people that otherwise will not come to us.

Think about it, millions more will be benefited by this move. We need more

options.

 

Michael W. Bowser, LAc

 

Chinese Medicine

daniel.schulman

Sat, 7 Mar 2009 13:37:02 +0000

Re: medicaid covering acupuncture: pros & cons?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

We will be able to erect signs outside our practices like the ones

outside MacDonald's - " Billions Served "

 

 

 

Chinese Medicine , " Kath Bartlett, MS,

LAc " wrote:

 

>

 

> i noticed that aaaom is listing one of their primary goals as getting

 

> medicaid coverage for acupuncture. i'm wondering what you all see as

the

 

> pros and cons of this issue?

 

>

 

> kath

 

>

 

> --

 

> Kath Bartlett, LAc, MS, BA UCLA

 

> Oriental Medicine

 

> Experienced, Dedicated, Effective

 

>

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

_______________

Windows Liveâ„¢ Contacts: Organize your contact list.

http://windowslive.com/connect/post/marcusatmicrosoft.spaces.live.com-Blog-cns!5\

03D1D86EBB2B53C!2285.entry?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_UGC_Contacts_032009

 

 

[Guest guest]

Mike:

 

 

 

I am all for millions more being served.  What I am not for, is a forced

inclusion in the Medicare, Medicaid system.  That should be a choice by

practitioners.  I am a little skeptical that the AAAOM is going to protect us

in this.  I am hopeful, but quite frankly I did not like the timed acupuncture

units they seemed to have negotiated for us.  Do doctors get reimbursed $33 for

15 mins?  Do they get questioned on evaluation codes?

 

 

 

I really don't see it as we need an increase in patients.  I think some

practitioners would welcome this group of clients, but should surely find a 

way to be fairly reimbursed.  Right now I do not file claims for a client, I am

not a provider, and if I am forced to file medicare claims, the cost of my

service goes up and the reimbursement rate goes down.  Some seniors I treat

take twice as long as a regular client.  I think if your practice is set up

where you have assitants and a billing perso n, this might work fine.  Not all

of us want to have to change the way we practice, because we are forced to take

a certain government insurance.

 

 

 

Anne

 

 

 

Anne C. Crowley, L.Ac., Dipl.Ac.

www.LaPlataAcupuncture.com

 

-

" mike Bowser " <naturaldoc1

" traditional chinese medicine "

<Chinese Traditional Medicine >

Sunday, March 8, 2009 10:19:11 AM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern

RE:  Re: medicaid covering acupuncture: pros & cons?

 

 

I think that most of us know that the acupuncture profession is suffering from

an identity crisis and we remain very small as far as healthcare players.   On

the one hand, we want to have autonomy and work outside the medical industry but

then again we share common patients and public interest is growing as afar as

usage of acupuncture for medical problems.  It would be nice if we were

eventually the ones that were considered the authority on this medicine.  

 

I happen to think that we can do both if we are smart about it.  Inclusion in

participation will not be mandatory, there will still be lots of cash practices

and we will be paid something for people that otherwise will not come to us.

 Think about it, millions more will be benefited by this move.  We need more

options.

 

Michael W. Bowser, LAc

 

Chinese Medicine

daniel.schulman

Sat, 7 Mar 2009 13:37:02 +0000

 Re: medicaid covering acupuncture: pros & cons?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

    

            We will be able to erect signs outside our practices like the

ones outside MacDonald's - " Billions Served "

 

 

 

Chinese Medicine , " "

wrote:

 

>

 

> i noticed that aaaom is listing one of their primary goals as getting

 

> medicaid coverage for acupuncture.  i'm wondering what you all see as the

 

> pros and cons of this issue?

 

>

 

> kath

 

>

 

> --

 

> Kath Bartlett, LAc, MS,  BA UCLA

 

> Oriental Medicine

 

> Experienced, Dedicated, Effective

 

>

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

      

 

    

    

        

        

        

        

 

 

        

 

 

        

        

_______________

Windows Live� Contacts: Organize your contact list.

http://windowslive.com/connect/post/marcusatmicrosoft.spaces.live.com-Blog-cns!5\

03D1D86EBB2B53C!2285.entry?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_UGC_Contacts_032009

 

 

[Guest guest]

Mike,

 

Perhaps this is a regional or state problem.  Where I live (Arizona), there is a

plethora of " medical acupuncturists " which confuse the public into believing

" acupuncture doesn't work " with their ineffective treatments, while their

publicity leads the public to believe their medical background makes them the

superior practitioners, and patients believe this.  So it translates as follows:

" Wow!  If my doctor couldn't help me with acupuncture, and I know my doctor is

highly trained because he/she is, after all, a doctor, then I guess it doesn't

make any sense for me to explore acupuncture with a licensed acupuncturist... "  

I have discussed this on these lists before, so I won't go into greater detail. 

 

While this trend, of acupuncture being co-opted by the medical profession, may

not be on any healthcare reform agenda, it is definitely happening.  Many health

insurance companies will not cover acupuncture unless it is provided by a

" doctor " (MD, DO, ND, DC), and I know there are efforts afoot in various states

to try to change this, but there are also efforts in the " medical " community to

resist this change.  There isn't any shortage of acupuncturists where I live,

but rather there is definitely competition between LAcs and " certified medical

acupuncturists " , for a small number of patients seeking acupuncture.  Neither

was there any shortage of LAcs in San Diego when I was there.  In fact, I don't

know of any acupuncturists complaining that they are overwhelmed by the number

of patients who want to see them, do you?  Where is this shortage of

acupuncturists?  I'd like to be practicing there!

 

Andrea Beth

 

Traditional Oriental Medicine

Happy Hours in the CALM Center

1770 E. Villa Drive, Suite 5

Cottonwood, AZ  86326

(928) 274-1373

 

 

--- On Sat, 3/7/09, mike Bowser <naturaldoc1 wrote:

mike Bowser <naturaldoc1

RE: medicaid covering acupuncture: pros & cons?

Chinese Traditional Medicine

Saturday, March 7, 2009, 5:06 PM

 

I would disagree with this statement and ask us to consider why is that we

might want to be left outside of the healthcare arena? I would like to know

where is it that this idea is coming from (fear of change, avoidance of

conflict, fact or what)? As there has been no plan in the healthcare reform

that I have seen that attempts this, I must wonder why do we bur into it? Do we

want our profession to remain small? I only ask because we constantly hear

about the shortage of practitioners to give treatments.

 

Michael W. Bowser, LAc

Chinese Medicine

 

Sat, 7 Mar 2009 12:31:43 -0800

Re: medicaid covering acupuncture: pros & cons?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Andrea,

 

 

 

I have heard similar positions on this topic. The real problem is that of legal

acupuncture usage and that comes from the states (at least HI has made licensure

by one route only and that is through our schools, NCCAOM exam, state

application).

 

 

 

Getting us coverage in these programs will allow us to better compete and allow

for more access. One big problem we still have is when schools appear to be in

support of the " medical acupunturist " existing and showing support for them over

us. That is where the real problem comes from. I am unsure if they realize

that they are undermining us and limiting their own future.

 

Michael W. Bowser, LAc

 

 

 

 

 

Chinese Medicine

 

Mon, 9 Mar 2009 08:48:01 -0700

RE: medicaid covering acupuncture: pros & cons?

 

 

 

 

 

Mike,

 

Perhaps this is a regional or state problem. Where I live (Arizona), there is a

plethora of " medical acupuncturists " which confuse the public into believing

" acupuncture doesn't work " with their ineffective treatments, while their

publicity leads the public to believe their medical background makes them the

superior practitioners, and patients believe this. So it translates as follows:

" Wow! If my doctor couldn't help me with acupuncture, and I know my doctor is

highly trained because he/she is, after all, a doctor, then I guess it doesn't

make any sense for me to explore acupuncture with a licensed acupuncturist... "

I have discussed this on these lists before, so I won't go into greater detail.

 

While this trend, of acupuncture being co-opted by the medical profession, may

not be on any healthcare reform agenda, it is definitely happening. Many health

insurance companies will not cover acupuncture unless it is provided by a

" doctor " (MD, DO, ND, DC), and I know there are efforts afoot in various states

to try to change this, but there are also efforts in the " medical " community to

resist this change. There isn't any shortage of acupuncturists where I live,

but rather there is definitely competition between LAcs and " certified medical

acupuncturists " , for a small number of patients seeking acupuncture. Neither

was there any shortage of LAcs in San Diego when I was there. In fact, I don't

know of any acupuncturists complaining that they are overwhelmed by the number

of patients who want to see them, do you? Where is this shortage of

acupuncturists? I'd like to be practicing there!

 

Andrea Beth

 

Traditional Oriental Medicine

Happy Hours in the CALM Center

1770 E. Villa Drive, Suite 5

Cottonwood, AZ 86326

(928) 274-1373

 

--- On Sat, 3/7/09, mike Bowser <naturaldoc1 wrote:

mike Bowser <naturaldoc1

RE: medicaid covering acupuncture: pros & cons?

Chinese Traditional Medicine

Saturday, March 7, 2009, 5:06 PM

 

I would disagree with this statement and ask us to consider why is that we

might want to be left outside of the healthcare arena? I would like to know

where is it that this idea is coming from (fear of change, avoidance of

conflict, fact or what)? As there has been no plan in the healthcare reform

that I have seen that attempts this, I must wonder why do we bur into it? Do we

want our profession to remain small? I only ask because we constantly hear

about the shortage of practitioners to give treatments.

 

Michael W. Bowser, LAc

Chinese Medicine

 

Sat, 7 Mar 2009 12:31:43 -0800

Re: medicaid covering acupuncture: pros & cons?

 

 

[Guest guest]

Inclusion is voluntary. I have never read or heard of any forced acceptance on

our profession. If someone else can show this to be incorrect, then please post

the information as I would also like to know the changes. Thanks

 

Michael W. Bowser, LAc

 

 

 

Chinese Medicine

anne.crowley

Mon, 9 Mar 2009 06:09:53 +0000

Re: Re: medicaid covering acupuncture: pros & cons?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Mike:

 

I am all for millions more being served. What I am not for, is a forced

inclusion in the Medicare, Medicaid system. That should be a choice by

practitioners. I am a little skeptical that the AAAOM is going to protect us in

this. I am hopeful, but quite frankly I did not like the timed acupuncture

units they seemed to have negotiated for us. Do doctors get reimbursed $33 for

15 mins? Do they get questioned on evaluation codes?

 

I really don't see it as we need an increase in patients. I think some

practitioners would welcome this group of clients, but should surely find a way

to be fairly reimbursed. Right now I do not file claims for a client, I am not

a provider, and if I am forced to file medicare claims, the cost of my service

goes up and the reimbursement rate goes down. Some seniors I treat take twice

as long as a regular client. I think if your practice is set up where you have

assitants and a billing perso n, this might work fine. Not all of us want to

have to change the way we practice, because we are forced to take a certain

government insurance.

 

Anne

 

Anne C. Crowley, L.Ac., Dipl.Ac.

www.LaPlataAcupuncture.com

 

-

" mike Bowser " <naturaldoc1

" traditional chinese medicine "

<Chinese Traditional Medicine >

Sunday, March 8, 2009 10:19:11 AM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern

RE: Re: medicaid covering acupuncture: pros & cons?

 

I think that most of us know that the acupuncture profession is suffering from

an identity crisis and we remain very small as far as healthcare players. On

the one hand, we want to have autonomy and work outside the medical industry but

then again we share common patients and public interest is growing as afar as

usage of acupuncture for medical problems. It would be nice if we were

eventually the ones that were considered the authority on this medicine.

 

I happen to think that we can do both if we are smart about it. Inclusion in

participation will not be mandatory, there will still be lots of cash practices

and we will be paid something for people that otherwise will not come to us.

Think about it, millions more will be benefited by this move. We need more

options.

 

Michael W. Bowser, LAc

 

Chinese Medicine

daniel.schulman

Sat, 7 Mar 2009 13:37:02 +0000

Re: medicaid covering acupuncture: pros & cons?

 

 

We will be able to erect signs outside our practices like the ones

outside MacDonald's - " Billions Served "

 

Chinese Medicine , " "

wrote:

 

>

 

> i noticed that aaaom is listing one of their primary goals as getting

 

> medicaid coverage for acupuncture. i'm wondering what you all see as the

 

> pros and cons of this issue?

 

>

 

> kath

 

>

 

> --

 

> Kath Bartlett, LAc, MS, BA UCLA

 

> Oriental Medicine

 

> Experienced, Dedicated, Effective

 

>

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

________

Windows Live� Contacts: Organize your contact list.

http://windowslive.com/connect/post/marcusatmicrosoft.spaces.live.com-Blog-cns!5\

03D1D86EBB2B53C!2285.entry?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_UGC_Contacts_032009

 

 

[Guest guest]

Unfortunately, Mike, one of the main educators of " medical acupuncturists " is

himself, both a DC and a LAc.  This poses a real pickle.

 

Andrea Beth

 

Traditional Oriental Medicine

Happy Hours in the CALM Center

1770 E. Villa Drive, Suite 5

Cottonwood, AZ  86326

(928) 274-1373

 

 

--- On Mon, 3/9/09, mike Bowser <naturaldoc1 wrote:

mike Bowser <naturaldoc1

RE: medicaid covering acupuncture: pros & cons?

Chinese Traditional Medicine

Monday, March 9, 2009, 10:29 AM

 

Andrea,

 

 

 

I have heard similar positions on this topic. The real problem is that of

legal acupuncture usage and that comes from the states (at least HI has made

licensure by one route only and that is through our schools, NCCAOM exam, state

application).

 

 

 

Getting us coverage in these programs will allow us to better compete and allow

for more access. One big problem we still have is when schools appear to be in

support of the " medical acupunturist " existing and showing support for

them over us. That is where the real problem comes from. I am unsure if they

realize that they are undermining us and limiting their own future.

 

Michael W. Bowser, LAc

 

 

 

 

 

Chinese Medicine

 

Mon, 9 Mar 2009 08:48:01 -0700

RE: medicaid covering acupuncture: pros & cons?

 

 

 

 

 

Mike,

 

Perhaps this is a regional or state problem. Where I live (Arizona), there is

a plethora of " medical acupuncturists " which confuse the public into

believing " acupuncture doesn't work " with their ineffective

treatments, while their publicity leads the public to believe their medical

background makes them the superior practitioners, and patients believe this. So

it translates as follows: " Wow! If my doctor couldn't help me with

acupuncture, and I know my doctor is highly trained because he/she is, after

all, a doctor, then I guess it doesn't make any sense for me to explore

acupuncture with a licensed acupuncturist... " I have discussed this on

these lists before, so I won't go into greater detail.

 

While this trend, of acupuncture being co-opted by the medical profession, may

not be on any healthcare reform agenda, it is definitely happening. Many health

insurance companies will not cover acupuncture unless it is provided by a

" doctor " (MD, DO, ND, DC), and I know there are efforts afoot in

various states to try to change this, but there are also efforts in the

" medical " community to resist this change. There isn't any

shortage of acupuncturists where I live, but rather there is definitely

competition between LAcs and " certified medical acupuncturists " , for a

small number of patients seeking acupuncture. Neither was there any shortage of

LAcs in San Diego when I was there. In fact, I don't know of any

acupuncturists complaining that they are overwhelmed by the number of patients

who want to see them, do you? Where is this shortage of acupuncturists?

I'd like to be practicing there!

 

Andrea Beth

 

Traditional Oriental Medicine

Happy Hours in the CALM Center

1770 E. Villa Drive, Suite 5

Cottonwood, AZ 86326

(928) 274-1373

 

--- On Sat, 3/7/09, mike Bowser <naturaldoc1 wrote:

mike Bowser <naturaldoc1

RE: medicaid covering acupuncture: pros & cons?

Chinese Traditional Medicine

Saturday, March 7, 2009, 5:06 PM

 

I would disagree with this statement and ask us to consider why is that we

might want to be left outside of the healthcare arena? I would like to know

where is it that this idea is coming from (fear of change, avoidance of

conflict, fact or what)? As there has been no plan in the healthcare reform

that I have seen that attempts this, I must wonder why do we bur into it? Do we

want our profession to remain small? I only ask because we constantly hear

about the shortage of practitioners to give treatments.

 

Michael W. Bowser, LAc

Chinese Medicine

 

Sat, 7 Mar 2009 12:31:43 -0800

Re: medicaid covering acupuncture: pros & cons?

 

 

[Guest guest]

Now the usage of the term " medical acupuncturist " is not recognized as such when

an MD/DO refers to a DC that uses acupuncture.

There are a couple of weekend programs that are taught be chiropractors in which

referal is made to themselves as " medical acupuncturists " . It sounds like there

is a battle over who can use this designation.

If you are referring to a dual licensed provider on the eastcoast, it appears

that he might be in a leadership position of a state acupuncture organization.

 

Michael W. Bowser, LAc

Chinese Medicine

 

Mon, 9 Mar 2009 11:55:42 -0700

RE: medicaid covering acupuncture: pros & cons?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Unfortunately, Mike, one of the main educators of " medical

acupuncturists " is himself, both a DC and a LAc. This poses a real pickle.

 

 

 

Andrea Beth

 

 

 

Traditional Oriental Medicine

 

Happy Hours in the CALM Center

 

1770 E. Villa Drive, Suite 5

 

Cottonwood, AZ 86326

 

(928) 274-1373

 

 

 

--- On Mon, 3/9/09, mike Bowser <naturaldoc1 wrote:

 

mike Bowser <naturaldoc1

 

RE: medicaid covering acupuncture: pros & cons?

 

Chinese Traditional Medicine

 

Monday, March 9, 2009, 10:29 AM

 

 

 

Andrea,

 

 

 

I have heard similar positions on this topic. The real problem is that of

 

legal acupuncture usage and that comes from the states (at least HI has made

 

licensure by one route only and that is through our schools, NCCAOM exam, state

 

application).

 

 

 

Getting us coverage in these programs will allow us to better compete and allow

 

for more access. One big problem we still have is when schools appear to be in

 

support of the " medical acupunturist " existing and showing support for

 

them over us. That is where the real problem comes from. I am unsure if they

 

realize that they are undermining us and limiting their own future.

 

 

 

Michael W. Bowser, LAc

 

 

 

 

 

Chinese Medicine

 

 

 

Mon, 9 Mar 2009 08:48:01 -0700

 

RE: medicaid covering acupuncture: pros & cons?

 

 

 

Mike,

 

 

 

Perhaps this is a regional or state problem. Where I live (Arizona), there is

 

a plethora of " medical acupuncturists " which confuse the public into

 

believing " acupuncture doesn't work " with their ineffective

 

treatments, while their publicity leads the public to believe their medical

 

background makes them the superior practitioners, and patients believe this. So

 

it translates as follows: " Wow! If my doctor couldn't help me with

 

acupuncture, and I know my doctor is highly trained because he/she is, after

 

all, a doctor, then I guess it doesn't make any sense for me to explore

 

acupuncture with a licensed acupuncturist... " I have discussed this on

 

these lists before, so I won't go into greater detail.

 

 

 

While this trend, of acupuncture being co-opted by the medical profession, may

 

not be on any healthcare reform agenda, it is definitely happening. Many health

 

insurance companies will not cover acupuncture unless it is provided by a

 

" doctor " (MD, DO, ND, DC), and I know there are efforts afoot in

 

various states to try to change this, but there are also efforts in the

 

" medical " community to resist this change. There isn't any

 

shortage of acupuncturists where I live, but rather there is definitely

 

competition between LAcs and " certified medical acupuncturists " , for a

 

small number of patients seeking acupuncture. Neither was there any shortage of

 

LAcs in San Diego when I was there. In fact, I don't know of any

 

acupuncturists complaining that they are overwhelmed by the number of patients

 

who want to see them, do you? Where is this shortage of acupuncturists?

 

I'd like to be practicing there!

 

 

 

Andrea Beth

 

 

 

Traditional Oriental Medicine

 

Happy Hours in the CALM Center

 

1770 E. Villa Drive, Suite 5

 

Cottonwood, AZ 86326

 

(928) 274-1373

 

 

 

--- On Sat, 3/7/09, mike Bowser <naturaldoc1 wrote:

 

mike Bowser <naturaldoc1

 

RE: medicaid covering acupuncture: pros & cons?

 

Chinese Traditional Medicine

 

Saturday, March 7, 2009, 5:06 PM

 

 

 

I would disagree with this statement and ask us to consider why is that we

 

might want to be left outside of the healthcare arena? I would like to know

 

where is it that this idea is coming from (fear of change, avoidance of

 

conflict, fact or what)? As there has been no plan in the healthcare reform

 

that I have seen that attempts this, I must wonder why do we bur into it? Do we

 

want our profession to remain small? I only ask because we constantly hear

 

about the shortage of practitioners to give treatments.

 

 

 

Michael W. Bowser, LAc

 

Chinese Medicine

 

 

 

Sat, 7 Mar 2009 12:31:43 -0800

 

Re: medicaid covering acupuncture: pros & cons?

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

What I don't want is to run my shop like a busy chiro or MD. I have yet to

find one of these offices when I can actually relax and absorb the

treatment.

 

anne:

 

i echo your concerns, which is why i brought up the topic. i am on the

fence about joining aaaom because of this issue. i don't want to sent money

to an org working to hinder the way i practice.

 

on the one hand i was thinking that we are not being pressured to opt-in.

let the med acu's and dc's have at it.

 

on the other hand, i have long understood that medicaid/care opens the

floodgates for greater insurance coverage. something i am against for the

reasons you mention. if insurance becomes the norm, it will be difficult to

keep a cash only practice as those with insurance will obviously go to the

'free' acupuncturist that bills their provider.

 

kath

 

On Sat, Mar 7, 2009 at 9:03 AM, Anne Crowley <anne.crowleywrote:

 

>

>

> Kath:

>

> I know this is a hot button among us. I dont' want to be forced to

> participate in this program. That is my concern. And somehow I think that

> is what comes of it. If I am, then my seniors on the program will be

> treated in a Community Acupuncture setting. Right now, my business is not

> set up to incorporate another service like that. If acuman is right, and we

> have to take all patients at that rate, then my whole business would be

> community acupuncture. I do something very different now that I really like

> and my clients like. I would hate to be forced into this. And quite

> frankly if the frying pan gets to hot - there are other healing modalites

> that I can move into - that require none of this. What I don't want is to

> run my shop like a busy chiro or MD. I have yet to find one of these

> offices when I can actually relax and absorb the treatment.

>

> Anne

>

> Anne C. Crowley, L.Ac., Dipl.Ac.

> www.LaPlataAcupuncture.com

>

> -

> " " <acukath <acukath%40gmail.com>>

> " PCOM Alumni " <alumni <alumni%40pacificcollege.edu>>

>

> Cc: " TCM List "

<Chinese Traditional Medicine <Chinese Traditional Medicine%40yah\

oogroups.com>>

>

> Friday, March 6, 2009 7:14:01 PM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern

> medicaid covering acupuncture: pros & cons?

>

> i noticed that aaaom is listing one of their primary goals as getting

> medicaid coverage for acupuncture. i'm wondering what you all see as the

> pros and cons of this issue?

>

> kath

>

> --

>

> Oriental Medicine

> Experienced, Dedicated, Effective

>

> Kath's Blog about , Healthy Living & Spirituality:

> http://acukath.blogspot.com/

>

> Flying Dragon Liniment: Effective pain relief for muscles & joints

> Formulated by Kath Bartlett, Traditional Chinese Herbalist

> Available at Asheville Center for :

> www.FlyingDragonLiniment.com

>

> and from the following supply companies:

> Kamwo Herbal Pharmacy: NY - Chinatown

> https://www.kamwo.com/shop/product.php?productid=17442 & cat=0 & page=1

>

> Golden Needle Acupuncture, Herbal & Medical Supply - Candler, NC

>

>

http://www.goldenneedleonline.com/index.php?page=categories & category=14 & vendor= & \

product=5554 & pg=

>

> Asheville Center For

> 70 Woodfin Place, Suite West Wing Two

> Asheville, NC 28801 828.258.2777

> kbartlett <kbartlett%40AcupunctureAsheville.com>

> www.AcupunctureAsheville.com

>

>

[Guest guest]

Kath:

 

 

 

I am a person that likes to plod or push forward with what I am doing and ignore

the politics of acupuncture locally or nationally.  I don't necessarily think

that is a good thing; and yet I would like to turn this over to someone who

likes to do it, e.g. the AAAOM.  A few years back I heard a long discussion on

this list as to whether the AAAOM was good for us.   I think that is a bit of

an issue.  We as a group, acupuncturists, may want different things.  If I

don't have to opt in or I can opt out of medicare/medicaid, that allows me to

run my practice freely, and discount as needed.  Quite frankly, I have treated

some seniors in my community that can buy and sell me.

 

 

 

I think someone has to watch these trends with medical acupuncturists, and

other weekend warriors, what is going on with this new health care bill,

Hinckey, etc.  Just be sure we are not sold down the river - like " must opt in "

or reems of paperwork to " opt out " , or reimbursement of $20 per treatment.

 

 

 

It cost me $170 K to go to school, yes, $170K.  That includes forgone income,

inability to work at all due to school demands and travel, babysitters from

morning to midnight, overnight expenses near the school, travel

expenses.  Then we can start adding the meager tuition $30K, at the time.  I

graduated in 2001 and the requirements were 2300 hrs.  An undergraduate degree

was required to enter the program.  I had it, and another Master's degree.

However I had to take 15 hrs of Bio prerequisites (another time consuming

adventure - the classes were free since I was also a professor at that college

in Economics)

 

 

 

So I could go on and on.  Does anyone here know the AAAOM's position on these

political issues?

 

 

 

Anne

 

Anne C. Crowley, L.Ac., Dipl.Ac.

www.LaPlataAcupuncture.com

 

-

" "

" Traditional "

<Chinese Medicine >

Monday, March 9, 2009 9:09:51 PM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern

Re: medicaid covering acupuncture: pros & cons?

 

 

 

 

 

 

What I don't want is to run my shop like a busy chiro or MD. I have yet to

find one of these offices when I can actually relax and absorb the

treatment.

 

anne:

 

i echo your concerns, which is why i brought up the topic. i am on the

fence about joining aaaom because of this issue. i don't want to sent money

to an org working to hinder the way i practice.

 

on the one hand i was thinking that we are not being pressured to opt-in.

let the med acu's and dc's have at it.

 

on the other hand, i have long understood that medicaid/care opens the

floodgates for greater insurance coverage. something i am against for the

reasons you mention. if insurance becomes the norm, it will be difficult to

keep a cash only practice as those with insurance will obviously go to the

'free' acupuncturist that bills their provider.

 

kath

 

On Sat, Mar 7, 2009 at 9:03 AM, Anne Crowley < anne.crowley >wrote:

 

>

>

> Kath:

>

> I know this is a hot button among us. I dont' want to be forced to

> participate in this program. That is my concern. And somehow I think that

> is what comes of it. If I am, then my seniors on the program will be

> treated in a Community Acupuncture setting. Right now, my business is not

> set up to incorporate another service like that. If acuman is right, and we

> have to take all patients at that rate, then my whole business would be

> community acupuncture. I do something very different now that I really like

> and my clients like. I would hate to be forced into this. And quite

> frankly if the frying pan gets to hot - there are other healing modalites

> that I can move into - that require none of this. What I don't want is to

> run my shop like a busy chiro or MD. I have yet to find one of these

> offices when I can actually relax and absorb the treatment.

>

> Anne

>

> Anne C. Crowley, L.Ac., Dipl.Ac.

> www.LaPlataAcupuncture.com

>

> -

> " " < acukath <acukath%40gmail.com>>

> " PCOM Alumni " < alumni <alumni%40pacificcollege.edu>>

>

> Cc: " TCM List " < Chinese Traditional Medicine

<Chinese Traditional Medicine%40>>

>

> Friday, March 6, 2009 7:14:01 PM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern

> medicaid covering acupuncture: pros & cons?

>

> i noticed that aaaom is listing one of their primary goals as getting

> medicaid coverage for acupuncture. i'm wondering what you all see as the

> pros and cons of this issue?

>

> kath

>

> --

>

> Oriental Medicine

> Experienced, Dedicated, Effective

>

> Kath's Blog about , Healthy Living & Spirituality:

> http://acukath.blogspot.com/

>

> Flying Dragon Liniment: Effective pain relief for muscles & joints

> Formulated by Kath Bartlett, Traditional Chinese Herbalist

> Available at Asheville Center for :

> www.FlyingDragonLiniment.com

>

> and from the following supply companies:

> Kamwo Herbal Pharmacy: NY - Chinatown

> https://www.kamwo.com/shop/product.php?productid=17442 & cat=0 & page=1

>

> Golden Needle Acupuncture, Herbal & Medical Supply - Candler, NC

>

>

http://www.goldenneedleonline.com/index.php?page=categories & category=14 & vendor= & \

product=5554 & pg=

>

> Asheville Center For

> 70 Woodfin Place, Suite West Wing Two

> Asheville, NC 28801 828.258.2777

> kbartlett <kbartlett%40AcupunctureAsheville.com>

> www.AcupunctureAsheville.com

>

>

[Guest guest]

I haven't read all of thread, so I may be repeating something that someone else

already said. One of the most monumental changes that will take place if we are

covered by medicaid and medicare is that hospitals will start hiring us. I

think that would be great for people who are just getting started--it would have

been nice to be able to start working in a hospital to get my feet wet before I

was thrown into private practice. Also, it will be good for people who just

want to do a day's work and get paid for it with a regular pay check as opposed

to having to drum up business all the time.

 

For me, I prefer to be in private practice at this point because I am

established.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Chinese Medicine , mike Bowser

<naturaldoc1 wrote:

>

>

> Inclusion is voluntary. I have never read or heard of any forced acceptance

on our profession. If someone else can show this to be incorrect, then please

post the information as I would also like to know the changes. Thanks

>

> Michael W. Bowser, LAc

>

>

>

> Chinese Medicine

> anne.crowley

> Mon, 9 Mar 2009 06:09:53 +0000

> Re: Re: medicaid covering acupuncture: pros & cons?

>

Mike:

>

> I am all for millions more being served. What I am not for, is a forced

inclusion in the Medicare, Medicaid system. That should be a choice by

practitioners. I am a little skeptical that the AAAOM is going to protect us in

this. I am hopeful, but quite frankly I did not like the timed acupuncture

units they seemed to have negotiated for us. Do doctors get reimbursed $33 for

15 mins? Do they get questioned on evaluation codes?

>

> I really don't see it as we need an increase in patients. I think some

practitioners would welcome this group of clients, but should surely find a way

to be fairly reimbursed. Right now I do not file claims for a client, I am not

a provider, and if I am forced to file medicare claims, the cost of my service

goes up and the reimbursement rate goes down. Some seniors I treat take twice

as long as a regular client. I think if your practice is set up where you have

assitants and a billing perso n, this might work fine. Not all of us want to

have to change the way we practice, because we are forced to take a certain

government insurance.

>

> Anne

>

> Anne C. Crowley, L.Ac., Dipl.Ac.

> www.LaPlataAcupuncture.com

>

> -

> " mike Bowser " <naturaldoc1

> " traditional chinese medicine "

<Chinese Traditional Medicine >

> Sunday, March 8, 2009 10:19:11 AM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern

> RE: Re: medicaid covering acupuncture: pros & cons?

>

> I think that most of us know that the acupuncture profession is suffering from

an identity crisis and we remain very small as far as healthcare players. On

the one hand, we want to have autonomy and work outside the medical industry but

then again we share common patients and public interest is growing as afar as

usage of acupuncture for medical problems. It would be nice if we were

eventually the ones that were considered the authority on this medicine.

>

> I happen to think that we can do both if we are smart about it. Inclusion in

participation will not be mandatory, there will still be lots of cash practices

and we will be paid something for people that otherwise will not come to us.

Think about it, millions more will be benefited by this move. We need more

options.

>

> Michael W. Bowser, LAc

>

> Chinese Medicine

> daniel.schulman

> Sat, 7 Mar 2009 13:37:02 +0000

> Re: medicaid covering acupuncture: pros & cons?

>

>

> We will be able to erect signs outside our practices like the ones

outside MacDonald's - " Billions Served "

>

> Chinese Medicine , " "

<acukath@> wrote:

>

> >

>

> > i noticed that aaaom is listing one of their primary goals as getting

>

> > medicaid coverage for acupuncture. i'm wondering what you all see as the

>

> > pros and cons of this issue?

>

> >

>

> > kath

>

> >

>

> > --

>

> > Kath Bartlett, LAc, MS, BA UCLA

>

> > Oriental Medicine

>

> > Experienced, Dedicated, Effective

>

> >

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

________

> Windows Live� Contacts: Organize your contact list.

>

http://windowslive.com/connect/post/marcusatmicrosoft.spaces.live.com-Blog-cns!5\

03D1D86EBB2B53C!2285.entry?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_UGC_Contacts_032009

>

>

[Guest guest]

anne:

 

i feel you. we all have expended way too much time and energy to earn our

licensure. too much to give it away on $20 tx. as i mentioned in an

earlier post, my larger concern that medicaid acceptance will pave the way

to force us into the insurance system, so that we will effectively loose the

boon of the cash practice.

 

akth

 

On Tue, Mar 10, 2009 at 9:49 AM, Anne Crowley <anne.crowleywrote:

 

>

>

> Kath:

>

> I am a person that likes to plod or push forward with what I am doing and

> ignore the politics of acupuncture locally or nationally. I don't

> necessarily think that is a good thing; and yet I would like to turn this

> over to someone who likes to do it, e.g. the AAAOM. A few years back I

> heard a long discussion on this list as to whether the AAAOM was good for

> us. I think that is a bit of an issue. We as a group, acupuncturists, may

> want different things. If I don't have to opt in or I can opt out of

> medicare/medicaid, that allows me to run my practice freely, and discount as

> needed. Quite frankly, I have treated some seniors in my community that can

> buy and sell me.

>

> I think someone has to watch these trends with medical acupuncturists, and

> other weekend warriors, what is going on with this new health care bill,

> Hinckey, etc. Just be sure we are not sold down the river - like " must opt

> in " or reems of paperwork to " opt out " , or reimbursement of $20 per

> treatment.

>

> It cost me $170 K to go to school, yes, $170K. That includes forgone

> income, inability to work at all due to school demands and travel,

> babysitters from morning to midnight, overnight expenses near the school,

> travel expenses. Then we can start adding the meager tuition $30K, at the

> time. I graduated in 2001 and the requirements were 2300 hrs. An

> undergraduate degree was required to enter the program. I had it, and

> another Master's degree. However I had to take 15 hrs of Bio prerequisites

> (another time consuming adventure - the classes were free since I was also a

> professor at that college in Economics)

>

> So I could go on and on. Does anyone here know the AAAOM's position on

> these political issues?

>

> Anne

>

> Anne C. Crowley, L.Ac., Dipl.Ac.

> www.LaPlataAcupuncture.com

>

> -

> " " <acukath <acukath%40gmail.com>>

> " Traditional " <

>

Chinese Medicine <Chinese Medicine%40yaho\

ogroups.com>>

>

> Monday, March 9, 2009 9:09:51 PM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern

> Re: medicaid covering acupuncture: pros & cons?

>

> What I don't want is to run my shop like a busy chiro or MD. I have yet to

> find one of these offices when I can actually relax and absorb the

> treatment.

>

> anne:

>

> i echo your concerns, which is why i brought up the topic. i am on the

> fence about joining aaaom because of this issue. i don't want to sent money

>

> to an org working to hinder the way i practice.

>

> on the one hand i was thinking that we are not being pressured to opt-in.

> let the med acu's and dc's have at it.

>

> on the other hand, i have long understood that medicaid/care opens the

> floodgates for greater insurance coverage. something i am against for the

> reasons you mention. if insurance becomes the norm, it will be difficult to

>

> keep a cash only practice as those with insurance will obviously go to the

> 'free' acupuncturist that bills their provider.

>

> kath

>

> On Sat, Mar 7, 2009 at 9:03 AM, Anne Crowley <

anne.crowley<anne.crowley%40comcast.net>>wrote:

>

> >

> >

> > Kath:

> >

> > I know this is a hot button among us. I dont' want to be forced to

> > participate in this program. That is my concern. And somehow I think that

>

> > is what comes of it. If I am, then my seniors on the program will be

> > treated in a Community Acupuncture setting. Right now, my business is not

>

> > set up to incorporate another service like that. If acuman is right, and

> we

> > have to take all patients at that rate, then my whole business would be

> > community acupuncture. I do something very different now that I really

> like

> > and my clients like. I would hate to be forced into this. And quite

> > frankly if the frying pan gets to hot - there are other healing modalites

>

> > that I can move into - that require none of this. What I don't want is to

>

> > run my shop like a busy chiro or MD. I have yet to find one of these

> > offices when I can actually relax and absorb the treatment.

> >

> > Anne

> >

> > Anne C. Crowley, L.Ac., Dipl.Ac.

> > www.LaPlataAcupuncture.com

> >

> > -

> > " " < acukath

<acukath%40gmail.com><acukath%

> 40gmail.com>>

> > " PCOM Alumni " <

alumni<alumni%40pacificcollege.edu><alumni%

> 40pacificcollege.edu>>

> >

> > Cc: " TCM List " <

Chinese Traditional Medicine <Chinese Traditional Medicine%40yaho\

ogroups.com><Chinese Traditional Medicine%

> 40>>

> >

> > Friday, March 6, 2009 7:14:01 PM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern

> > medicaid covering acupuncture: pros & cons?

> >

> > i noticed that aaaom is listing one of their primary goals as getting

> > medicaid coverage for acupuncture. i'm wondering what you all see as the

> > pros and cons of this issue?

> >

> > kath

> >

> > --

> >

> > Oriental Medicine

> > Experienced, Dedicated, Effective

> >

> > Kath's Blog about , Healthy Living & Spirituality:

> > http://acukath.blogspot.com/

> >

> > Flying Dragon Liniment: Effective pain relief for muscles & joints

> > Formulated by Kath Bartlett, Traditional Chinese Herbalist

> > Available at Asheville Center for :

> > www.FlyingDragonLiniment.com

> >

> > and from the following supply companies:

> > Kamwo Herbal Pharmacy: NY - Chinatown

> > https://www.kamwo.com/shop/product.php?productid=17442 & cat=0 & page=1

> >

> > Golden Needle Acupuncture, Herbal & Medical Supply - Candler, NC

> >

> >

>

http://www.goldenneedleonline.com/index.php?page=categories & category=14 & vendor= & \

product=5554 & pg=

> >

> > Asheville Center For

> > 70 Woodfin Place, Suite West Wing Two

> > Asheville, NC 28801 828.258.2777

> >

kbartlett<kbartlett%40AcupunctureAsheville.com><kbartle\

tt%40AcupunctureAsheville.com>

> > www.AcupunctureAsheville.com

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

I understand what you are feeling but there is nothing to support this position.

As an LAc, I would want every other LAc to have as many ops to treat patients,

even if I choose not to accept a payment method. I hear a lot of fear in this

discussion. Maybe it is justified, maybe not. What we need to understand is

that wishing to turn the clock back 8 years is not going to happen. We are

really in a bad place and the ways we might have practiced before are sure to

change as well. Some of us will likely lower prices, office share to lower

expenses, move our office, open a home-office, take insurance, etc. Some of

these will be necessary for others of us to survive and yet none of us wants to

deny our brethren options to keep them going. So, my question comes down to are

we ready to become part of the changes or remain stuck?

 

Michael W. Bowser, LAc

 

Chinese Medicine

acukath

Wed, 11 Mar 2009 15:14:56 -0400

Re: medicaid covering acupuncture: pros & cons?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

anne:

 

 

 

i feel you. we all have expended way too much time and energy to earn our

 

licensure. too much to give it away on $20 tx. as i mentioned in an

 

earlier post, my larger concern that medicaid acceptance will pave the way

 

to force us into the insurance system, so that we will effectively loose the

 

boon of the cash practice.

 

 

 

akth

 

 

 

On Tue, Mar 10, 2009 at 9:49 AM, Anne Crowley <anne.crowleywrote:

 

 

 

>

 

>

 

> Kath:

 

>

 

> I am a person that likes to plod or push forward with what I am doing and

 

> ignore the politics of acupuncture locally or nationally. I don't

 

> necessarily think that is a good thing; and yet I would like to turn this

 

> over to someone who likes to do it, e.g. the AAAOM. A few years back I

 

> heard a long discussion on this list as to whether the AAAOM was good for

 

> us. I think that is a bit of an issue. We as a group, acupuncturists, may

 

> want different things. If I don't have to opt in or I can opt out of

 

> medicare/medicaid, that allows me to run my practice freely, and discount as

 

> needed. Quite frankly, I have treated some seniors in my community that can

 

> buy and sell me.

 

>

 

> I think someone has to watch these trends with medical acupuncturists, and

 

> other weekend warriors, what is going on with this new health care bill,

 

> Hinckey, etc. Just be sure we are not sold down the river - like " must opt

 

> in " or reems of paperwork to " opt out " , or reimbursement of $20 per

 

> treatment.

 

>

 

> It cost me $170 K to go to school, yes, $170K. That includes forgone

 

> income, inability to work at all due to school demands and travel,

 

> babysitters from morning to midnight, overnight expenses near the school,

 

> travel expenses. Then we can start adding the meager tuition $30K, at the

 

> time. I graduated in 2001 and the requirements were 2300 hrs. An

 

> undergraduate degree was required to enter the program. I had it, and

 

> another Master's degree. However I had to take 15 hrs of Bio prerequisites

 

> (another time consuming adventure - the classes were free since I was also a

 

> professor at that college in Economics)

 

>

 

> So I could go on and on. Does anyone here know the AAAOM's position on

 

> these political issues?

 

>

 

> Anne

 

>

 

> Anne C. Crowley, L.Ac., Dipl.Ac.

 

> www.LaPlataAcupuncture.com

 

>

 

> -

 

> " " <acukath <acukath%40gmail.com>>

 

> " Traditional " <

 

>

Chinese Medicine <Chinese Medicine%40yaho\

ogroups.com>>

 

>

 

> Monday, March 9, 2009 9:09:51 PM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern

 

> Re: medicaid covering acupuncture: pros & cons?

 

>

 

> What I don't want is to run my shop like a busy chiro or MD. I have yet to

 

> find one of these offices when I can actually relax and absorb the

 

> treatment.

 

>

 

> anne:

 

>

 

> i echo your concerns, which is why i brought up the topic. i am on the

 

> fence about joining aaaom because of this issue. i don't want to sent money

 

>

 

> to an org working to hinder the way i practice.

 

>

 

> on the one hand i was thinking that we are not being pressured to opt-in.

 

> let the med acu's and dc's have at it.

 

>

 

> on the other hand, i have long understood that medicaid/care opens the

 

> floodgates for greater insurance coverage. something i am against for the

 

> reasons you mention. if insurance becomes the norm, it will be difficult to

 

>

 

> keep a cash only practice as those with insurance will obviously go to the

 

> 'free' acupuncturist that bills their provider.

 

>

 

> kath

 

>

 

> On Sat, Mar 7, 2009 at 9:03 AM, Anne Crowley <

anne.crowley<anne.crowley%40comcast.net>>wrote:

 

>

 

>>

 

>>

 

>> Kath:

 

>>

 

>> I know this is a hot button among us. I dont' want to be forced to

 

>> participate in this program. That is my concern. And somehow I think that

 

>

 

>> is what comes of it. If I am, then my seniors on the program will be

 

>> treated in a Community Acupuncture setting. Right now, my business is not

 

>

 

>> set up to incorporate another service like that. If acuman is right, and

 

> we

 

>> have to take all patients at that rate, then my whole business would be

 

>> community acupuncture. I do something very different now that I really

 

> like

 

>> and my clients like. I would hate to be forced into this. And quite

 

>> frankly if the frying pan gets to hot - there are other healing modalites

 

>

 

>> that I can move into - that require none of this. What I don't want is to

 

>

 

>> run my shop like a busy chiro or MD. I have yet to find one of these

 

>> offices when I can actually relax and absorb the treatment.

 

>>

 

>> Anne

 

>>

 

>> Anne C. Crowley, L.Ac., Dipl.Ac.

 

>> www.LaPlataAcupuncture.com

 

>>

 

>> -

 

>> " " < acukath

<acukath%40gmail.com><acukath%

 

> 40gmail.com>>

 

>> " PCOM Alumni " <

alumni<alumni%40pacificcollege.edu><alumni%

 

> 40pacificcollege.edu>>

 

>>

 

>> Cc: " TCM List " <

Chinese Traditional Medicine <Chinese Traditional Medicine%40yaho\

ogroups.com><Chinese Traditional Medicine%

 

> 40>>

 

>>

 

>> Friday, March 6, 2009 7:14:01 PM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern

 

>> medicaid covering acupuncture: pros & cons?

 

>>

 

>> i noticed that aaaom is listing one of their primary goals as getting

 

>> medicaid coverage for acupuncture. i'm wondering what you all see as the

 

>> pros and cons of this issue?

 

>>

 

>> kath

 

>>

 

>> --

 

>>

 

>> Oriental Medicine

 

>> Experienced, Dedicated, Effective

 

>>

 

>> Kath's Blog about , Healthy Living & Spirituality:

 

>> http://acukath.blogspot.com/

 

>>

 

>> Flying Dragon Liniment: Effective pain relief for muscles & joints

 

>> Formulated by Kath Bartlett, Traditional Chinese Herbalist

 

>> Available at Asheville Center for :

 

>> www.FlyingDragonLiniment.com

 

>>

 

>> and from the following supply companies:

 

>> Kamwo Herbal Pharmacy: NY - Chinatown

 

>> https://www.kamwo.com/shop/product.php?productid=17442 & cat=0 & page=1

 

>>

 

>> Golden Needle Acupuncture, Herbal & Medical Supply - Candler, NC

 

>>

 

>>

 

>

http://www.goldenneedleonline.com/index.php?page=categories & category=14 & vendor= & \

product=5554 & pg=

 

>>

 

>> Asheville Center For

 

>> 70 Woodfin Place, Suite West Wing Two

 

>> Asheville, NC 28801 828.258.2777

 

>>

kbartlett<kbartlett%40AcupunctureAsheville.com><kbartle\

tt%40AcupunctureAsheville.com>

 

>> www.AcupunctureAsheville.com

 

>>

 

>>