Acupuncture Channels, and point of information

February 23, 2009

Hi Attilio and All,

I would think that Kendall is right on the money if you simply turn his thesis

around. Embryological cells (like neural crest cells) follow Zheng Qi in the

channels. The channels do not follow the cells. (^;

In embryology the neural crest cells of the embryo " swim " along some

predetermined channel system and select landing spots to create the entire

peripheral nervous system. Everything else follows: out flow at each dermatome

of arteries, veins, lymphatics, etc. The channel system guides the embryonic

development of neurovascular bundles.

I've been reading this article that you cited and it's bibliographic references

for a couple of years. You know graduate students read bibliographies to learn

the history and lineage of materials and methods. My graduate research was in

part in this area of DNA electrophoresis and felt it would be good to provide a

point of information on the article you cited:

Attilio wrote: I believe Shin et al. in South Korea used DNA staining techniques

to

isolated the meridian sub systems, see

http://www.chinesemedicinetimes.com/section/52/1/dna_staining_reveals_the_existe\

nce_of_the_meridian_sub_systems

Here is a quote from the above article:

" The study by Shin et al. (2005) notes the similarities between the granules in

the Jingluo subsystems and microcells used to study cancer and Down’s syndrome. "

My point of information is this. The microcells and DNA granules are what we

engineers do in the lab, not what's found in vivo or upon scanning electron

microscopy. See:

http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?artid=1303477 & tool=pmcentrez

and scroll down to Materials and Methods. I pasted here the first two

paragraphs.

Microfabrication procedures

Electrophoresis microcell

P-type silicon wafers were cleaned in a piranha bath (5:1 H2SO4:H2O2) for 10 min

and then rinsed with de-ionized water until the resistivity of the rinse tank

rose >13 MO. Positive photoresist (PR) was then patterned onto the wafer in 2 µm

× 4 µm islands by contact lithography. After reactive ion etching, the wafers

were again cleaned, and a 1.5-µm-thick layer of silicon oxide was grown by wet

thermal oxidation at 1000°C. Next, another layer of PR was applied to the

oxidized wafers with the negative image of the previous layer, leaving PR

covering the entire surface except the tops of the etched posts. A 50-nm layer

of gold was applied by thermal evaporation, using a 7-nm film of chrome to

facilitate adhesion. The wafers were then soaked in acetone to dissolve the PR

and remove the Cr/Au from the wafer everywhere except for the tops of the posts

(liftoff).

Microfluidic channels

A separate microfluidic channel was fabricated for particle image velocimetry

experiments. Wafers were cleaned and etched as described above to generate a

straight channel 200-µm wide and 65-µm deep (~3:1 aspect ratio). Glass covers

were bonded over the microchannels using anodic bonding. Inlet and outlet ports

were drilled into the covers for fluid transfer.

Emmanuel: My graduate mentors trained me to be their materials and methods

person. The human body does not have " microcells " in vivo, but it does have an

enormous amount of activity going on in the extracellular matrix. For my money

the following review paper (The Matrix Preloaded) is what I use to validate a

great deal of prime directives and first principles of Chinese medicine to my

Western science students who study with me. It might be of interest to you.

http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/picrender.fcgi?artid=1175853 & blobtype=pdf

The take home for me is this:

It's possible to " wash " your cells and your extracellular matrix just as you

brush your teeth every day. Ninety minutes of walking under the sky per day

will do it. It's not a big surprise that aerobic activity is more powerful than

metformin (or any other exogenous molecule) to make your tissues more insulin

sensitive. Nitrous oxide evolved by local tissues has so many restorative

benefits that it's referred to my my colleagues as the " angel of the endothial

matrix " . Enjoy the read when you have time.

If you match the above data to the spontaneous movements of neural crest cells

in embryological development, you might conclude that CM medical colleges would

do well to insist that students take an embryology course before they attend

their freshmen classes. Bottom line for me is: what " channels " are the cells

(neural crest cells, et. al.) following? The channels are not following the

cells. Rather then cells are following the Zheng Qi flowing in the channels.

Imho.

Respectfully and gratefully,

Emmanuel Segmen

February 24, 2009

I like your points, Emmanuel. I agree that we tend to look at things

backwards, i.e. trying to get Chinese medical concepts/structures to

fit modern physiological dogmas, rather than using the information to

enrich the body of knowledge we already have.

One point of order here I'd like to make. There is an important

differentiation between jing1 ç» /channel and mai2è„‰/ vessel.

Channels are seen more as a warp, embodying a wide range of

physiological functions and having deep connections with internal

processes and metabolism, while mai/vessels are clearly more

'physical' (used for blood letting) and therefore more structurally

similar to biomedical concepts.

On Feb 23, 2009, at 3:55 PM, Emmanuel Segmen wrote:

> Hi Attilio and All,

>

> I would think that Kendall is right on the money if you simply turn

> his thesis around. Embryological cells (like neural crest cells)

> follow Zheng Qi in the channels. The channels do not follow the

> cells. (^;

>

> In embryology the neural crest cells of the embryo " swim " along some

> predetermined channel system and select landing spots to create the

> entire peripheral nervous system. Everything else follows: out flow

> at each dermatome of arteries, veins, lymphatics, etc. The channel

> system guides the embryonic development of neurovascular bundles.

>

> I've been reading this article that you cited and it's bibliographic

> references for a couple of years. You know graduate students read

> bibliographies to learn the history and lineage of materials and

> methods. My graduate research was in part in this area of DNA

> electrophoresis and felt it would be good to provide a point of

> information on the article you cited:

>

> Attilio wrote: I believe Shin et al. in South Korea used DNA

> staining techniques to

> isolated the meridian sub systems, see

>

http://www.chinesemedicinetimes.com/section/52/1/dna_staining_reveals_the_existe\

nce_of_the_meridian_sub_systems

>

> Here is a quote from the above article:

> " The study by Shin et al. (2005) notes the similarities between the

> granules in the Jingluo subsystems and microcells used to study

> cancer and Downâ€™s syndrome. "

>

> My point of information is this. The microcells and DNA granules

> are what we engineers do in the lab, not what's found in vivo or

> upon scanning electron microscopy. See:

>

http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?artid=1303477 & tool=pmcentrez

> and scroll down to Materials and Methods. I pasted here the first

> two paragraphs.

>

> Microfabrication procedures

> Electrophoresis microcell

> P-type silicon wafers were cleaned in a piranha bath (5:1

> H2SO4:H2O2) for 10 min and then rinsed with de-ionized water until

> the resistivity of the rinse tank rose >13 MO. Positive photoresist

> (PR) was then patterned onto the wafer in 2 Âµm Ã— 4 Âµm islands by

> contact lithography. After reactive ion etching, the wafers were

> again cleaned, and a 1.5-Âµm-thick layer of silicon oxide was grown

> by wet thermal oxidation at 1000Â°C. Next, another layer of PR was

> applied to the oxidized wafers with the negative image of the

> previous layer, leaving PR covering the entire surface except the

> tops of the etched posts. A 50-nm layer of gold was applied by

> thermal evaporation, using a 7-nm film of chrome to facilitate

> adhesion. The wafers were then soaked in acetone to dissolve the PR

> and remove the Cr/Au from the wafer everywhere except for the tops

> of the posts (liftoff).

>

> Microfluidic channels

> A separate microfluidic channel was fabricated for particle image

> velocimetry experiments. Wafers were cleaned and etched as described

> above to generate a straight channel 200-Âµm wide and 65-Âµm deep

> (~3:1 aspect ratio). Glass covers were bonded over the microchannels

> using anodic bonding. Inlet and outlet ports were drilled into the

> covers for fluid transfer.

>

> Emmanuel: My graduate mentors trained me to be their materials and

> methods person. The human body does not have " microcells " in vivo,

> but it does have an enormous amount of activity going on in the

> extracellular matrix. For my money the following review paper (The

> Matrix Preloaded) is what I use to validate a great deal of prime

> directives and first principles of Chinese medicine to my Western

> science students who study with me. It might be of interest to you.

>

> http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/picrender.fcgi?artid=1175853 & blobtype=pdf

>

> The take home for me is this:

> It's possible to " wash " your cells and your extracellular matrix

> just as you brush your teeth every day. Ninety minutes of walking

> under the sky per day will do it. It's not a big surprise that

> aerobic activity is more powerful than metformin (or any other

> exogenous molecule) to make your tissues more insulin sensitive.

> Nitrous oxide evolved by local tissues has so many restorative

> benefits that it's referred to my my colleagues as the " angel of the

> endothial matrix " . Enjoy the read when you have time.

>

> If you match the above data to the spontaneous movements of neural

> crest cells in embryological development, you might conclude that CM

> medical colleges would do well to insist that students take an

> embryology course before they attend their freshmen classes. Bottom

> line for me is: what " channels " are the cells (neural crest cells,

> et. al.) following? The channels are not following the cells.

> Rather then cells are following the Zheng Qi flowing in the

> channels. Imho.

>

> Respectfully and gratefully,

>

> Emmanuel Segmen

>

February 24, 2009

Great Emmanuel. Thanks. What is your thoughts on the role chromaffin tissue in

embryonic development plays?

--- On Mon, 2/23/09, Emmanuel Segmen <mrsegmen wrote:

Emmanuel Segmen <mrsegmen

Re: Acupuncture Channels, and point of information

Chinese Medicine

Monday, February 23, 2009, 6:55 PM

Hi Attilio and All,

I would think that Kendall is right on the money if you simply turn his thesis

around. Embryological cells (like neural crest cells) follow Zheng Qi in the

channels. The channels do not follow the cells. (^;

In embryology the neural crest cells of the embryo " swim " along some

predetermined channel system and select landing spots to create the entire

peripheral nervous system. Everything else follows: out flow at each dermatome

of arteries, veins, lymphatics, etc. The channel system guides the embryonic

development of neurovascular bundles.

I've been reading this article that you cited and it's bibliographic

references for a couple of years. You know graduate students read

bibliographies to learn the history and lineage of materials and methods. My

graduate research was in part in this area of DNA electrophoresis and felt it

would be good to provide a point of information on the article you cited:

Attilio wrote: I believe Shin et al. in South Korea used DNA staining

techniques to

isolated the meridian sub systems, see

http://www.chinesemedicinetimes.com/section/52/1/dna_staining_reveals_the_existe\

nce_of_the_meridian_sub_systems

Here is a quote from the above article:

" The study by Shin et al. (2005) notes the similarities between the

granules in the Jingluo subsystems and microcells used to study cancer and

Downâ€™s syndrome. "

My point of information is this. The microcells and DNA granules are what we

engineers do in the lab, not what's found in vivo or upon scanning electron

microscopy. See:

http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?artid=1303477 & tool=pmcentrez

and scroll down to Materials and Methods. I pasted here the first two

paragraphs.

Microfabrication procedures

Electrophoresis microcell

P-type silicon wafers were cleaned in a piranha bath (5:1 H2SO4:H2O2) for 10

min and then rinsed with de-ionized water until the resistivity of the rinse

tank rose >13 MO. Positive photoresist (PR) was then patterned onto the wafer

in 2 Âµm Ã— 4 Âµm islands by contact lithography. After reactive ion etching,

the wafers were again cleaned, and a 1.5-Âµm-thick layer of silicon oxide was

grown by wet thermal oxidation at 1000Â°C. Next, another layer of PR was applied

to the oxidized wafers with the negative image of the previous layer, leaving PR

covering the entire surface except the tops of the etched posts. A 50-nm layer

of gold was applied by thermal evaporation, using a 7-nm film of chrome to

facilitate adhesion. The wafers were then soaked in acetone to dissolve the PR

and remove the Cr/Au from the wafer everywhere except for the tops of the posts

(liftoff).

Microfluidic channels

A separate microfluidic channel was fabricated for particle image velocimetry

experiments. Wafers were cleaned and etched as described above to generate a

straight channel 200-Âµm wide and 65-Âµm deep (~3:1 aspect ratio). Glass covers

were bonded over the microchannels using anodic bonding. Inlet and outlet ports

were drilled into the covers for fluid transfer.

Emmanuel: My graduate mentors trained me to be their materials and methods

person. The human body does not have " microcells " in vivo, but it

does have an enormous amount of activity going on in the extracellular matrix.

For my money the following review paper (The Matrix Preloaded) is what I use to

validate a great deal of prime directives and first principles of Chinese

medicine to my Western science students who study with me. It might be of

interest to you.

http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/picrender.fcgi?artid=1175853 & blobtype=pdf

The take home for me is this:

It's possible to " wash " your cells and your extracellular matrix

just as you brush your teeth every day. Ninety minutes of walking under the sky

per day will do it. It's not a big surprise that aerobic activity is more

powerful than metformin (or any other exogenous molecule) to make your tissues

more insulin sensitive. Nitrous oxide evolved by local tissues has so many

restorative benefits that it's referred to my my colleagues as the

" angel of the endothial matrix " . Enjoy the read when you have time.

If you match the above data to the spontaneous movements of neural crest cells

in embryological development, you might conclude that CM medical colleges would

do well to insist that students take an embryology course before they attend

their freshmen classes. Bottom line for me is: what " channels " are

the cells (neural crest cells, et. al.) following? The channels are not

following the cells. Rather then cells are following the Zheng Qi flowing in

the channels. Imho.

Respectfully and gratefully,

Emmanuel Segmen

February 24, 2009

All

As some of you have pointed out, this is one of Dr. Wang Ju-yi's

favoritte subjects. This debate is of course very important and

heated in China. As a theorist and avid reader, Dr. Wang seems to

keep up with the discussion as much as possible and loves

translations of English research.

His distillation of the nature of channels comes back over and over

to the role of intersitial fluid circulation within 'connective

tissue' (×éÖ¯Òº zu zhi ye). I translated for him some fascinating

research by Dr. Helen Langevin at the University of Vermont medical

school. For those interested, her article on connective tissue

planes and acupuncture channels can be found on-line. After

reviewing Dr. Langevin's research using electron microscopes, Dr.

Wang marveled that he could come to such similar conclulsions

largely from reading classical texts and paying attention to how the

language of those texts seems to be describing fluid flow.

On a similar note, he often points out that the very first chapter

of the Divine Pivot asserts that acupuncture points are, " Not [the

same as] skin, flesh, sinews and bones " . If not these structures,

then what? His belief is that many parts of the rest of the Nei Jing

and the Nan Jing broaden upon this this by describing the role

of 'the spaces' (Ï¶ xi)...

Thank you all for a fascinating discussion!

Respectfully,

Jason Robertson

February 24, 2009

Has anyone read Dr. Shui yin luo's book:

http://www.qluni.org/home_new2.html

Here is a synopsis from another website...

" It is proposed that meridians are made up of a polarized media which is

likely to be water clusters. These water clusters align to form an electric

field throughout the network of meridians. When the water clusters align to

form an electric field throughout the network of meridians. When the water

clusters fall out of allignment, qi is blocked and the body is in pain ir

becomes sick. "

How is this similar/ different to the interstitial fluid circulation within

connective tissue theory?

Qi carried through water is consistent with the classical metaphors of water

used for the shu points.. well, spring, stream etc.

and these fields as " channels " carrying water or " vessels " holding water.

On Mon, Feb 23, 2009 at 6:03 PM, JASON R <kentuckyginseng wrote:

> All

>

> As some of you have pointed out, this is one of Dr. Wang Ju-yi's

> favoritte subjects. This debate is of course very important and

> heated in China. As a theorist and avid reader, Dr. Wang seems to

> keep up with the discussion as much as possible and loves

> translations of English research.

>

> His distillation of the nature of channels comes back over and over

> to the role of intersitial fluid circulation within 'connective

> tissue' (×éÖ¯Òº zu zhi ye). I translated for him some fascinating

> research by Dr. Helen Langevin at the University of Vermont medical

> school. For those interested, her article on connective tissue

> planes and acupuncture channels can be found on-line. After

> reviewing Dr. Langevin's research using electron microscopes, Dr.

> Wang marveled that he could come to such similar conclulsions

> largely from reading classical texts and paying attention to how the

> language of those texts seems to be describing fluid flow.

>

> On a similar note, he often points out that the very first chapter

> of the Divine Pivot asserts that acupuncture points are, " Not [the

> same as] skin, flesh, sinews and bones " . If not these structures,

> then what? His belief is that many parts of the rest of the Nei Jing

> and the Nan Jing broaden upon this this by describing the role

> of 'the spaces' (Ï¶ xi)...

>

> Thank you all for a fascinating discussion!

>

> Respectfully,

>

> Jason Robertson

>

--

www.tcmreview.com

The Four Reliances:

Do not rely upon the individual, but rely upon the teaching.

As far as teachings go, do not rely upon the words alone, but rely upon the

meaning that underlies them.

Regarding the meaning, do not rely upon the provisional meaning alone, but

rely upon the definitive meaning.

And regarding the definitive meaning, do not rely upon ordinary

consciousness, but rely upon wisdom awareness.

February 24, 2009

Water. Holy Water. (boy how relevant that term will be in a decade or so for the

planet).

The qi hua of the life is the mind. of the kidneys is the hair and sexual ease,

jing. of the lungs, the skin. of the shen, the eyes. of the most inner inner,

fearlessness, this isn't a expected result of a dull life. The struggle to know

is what qi wants. It's more like love than medicine. Qi has levels, once through

the threshold, the physical world becomes more fluid like water, is that what

you mean? Like I said, some theories turn me away, but I could be a transcendent

surgeon, an empathic energy worker. Or a whore, what's the difference? Really,

tell me.

--- On Mon, 2/23/09, <johnkokko wrote:

<johnkokko

Re: Re: Acupuncture Channels, and point of information

Chinese Medicine

Monday, February 23, 2009, 11:28 PM

Has anyone read Dr. Shui yin luo's book:

http://www.qluni. org/home_ new2.html

Here is a synopsis from another website...

" It is proposed that meridians are made up of a polarized media which is

likely to be water clusters. These water clusters align to form an electric

field throughout the network of meridians. When the water clusters align to

form an electric field throughout the network of meridians. When the water

clusters fall out of allignment, qi is blocked and the body is in pain ir

becomes sick. "

How is this similar/ different to the interstitial fluid circulation within

connective tissue theory?

Qi carried through water is consistent with the classical metaphors of water

used for the shu points.. well, spring, stream etc.

and these fields as " channels " carrying water or " vessels " holding water.

On Mon, Feb 23, 2009 at 6:03 PM, JASON R <kentuckyginseng@ > wrote: