Guest guest Posted February 21, 2009 Report Share Posted February 21, 2009  Hi all, another quotation for all of you to drool over:  " Acupuncture channels are not ancient models of nerve, lymph, or blood vessel pathways but are instead something entirely different. " -Wang Ju-Yi in " Applied Channel Theory "  I feel it's nice to hear authoritative statement of this nature.   Hugo  Hugo Ramiro http://middlemedicine.wordpress.com http://www.chinesemedicaltherapies.org Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 22, 2009 Report Share Posted February 22, 2009 Yes, Wang Ju-yi's book on acupuncture channels with Jason Robertson is far and away the best thing in English on this subject. . .it is definitive. On Feb 21, 2009, at 2:31 PM, Hugo Ramiro wrote: > Hi all, another quotation for all of you to drool over: > > " Acupuncture channels are not ancient models of nerve, lymph, or > blood vessel pathways but are instead something entirely different. " > -Wang Ju-Yi in " Applied Channel Theory " > > I feel it's nice to hear authoritative statement of this nature. > > Hugo > > > Hugo Ramiro > http://middlemedicine.wordpress.com > http://www.chinesemedicaltherapies.org > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 23, 2009 Report Share Posted February 23, 2009 D.E Kendalls book- The Dao of Chinese medicine has a different take on meridians ( which he says is a totaly incorrect term, he prefers vessels) He makes a case for acupuncture channels corresponding to physiological blood, lymph and nerve pathways. An example is the radial artery path along the " lung vessel " . He does not believe in an engergetic invisible energy that is not based on physiology. He translates chi as vital breath and links it a lot with oxygen. (there are many differnt types of CHi) He was a teacher of mine years ago and he spent a lot of time researching the physiology of needleing. He also reads chinese and his book his basically his translation of the chinese texts. I happen to agree with Z'ev that Wang Ju Yi's book is definitive. I think we owe it to the medicine to become as well versed and educated as possible in all areas of information related to our system of medicine. It is a daunting job, but I think we all know what the results are. - In Chinese Medicine , <zrosenbe wrote: > > Yes, Wang Ju-yi's book on acupuncture channels with Jason Robertson is > far and away the best thing in English on this subject. . .it is > definitive. > > > > On Feb 21, 2009, at 2:31 PM, Hugo Ramiro wrote: > > > Hi all, another quotation for all of you to drool over: > > > > " Acupuncture channels are not ancient models of nerve, lymph, or > > blood vessel pathways but are instead something entirely different. " > > -Wang Ju-Yi in " Applied Channel Theory " > > > > I feel it's nice to hear authoritative statement of this nature. > > > > Hugo > > > > > > Hugo Ramiro > > http://middlemedicine.wordpress.com > > http://www.chinesemedicaltherapies.org > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 23, 2009 Report Share Posted February 23, 2009 We will have to go into this again and again, as information comes in, and our own understanding develops. Mo yuan and cou li as dynamic, lots to say. --- On Sun, 2/22/09, kncherman <kncherman wrote: kncherman <kncherman Re: Acupuncture Channels Chinese Medicine Sunday, February 22, 2009, 7:12 PM D.E Kendalls book- The Dao of Chinese medicine has a different take on meridians ( which he says is a totaly incorrect term, he prefers vessels) He makes a case for acupuncture channels corresponding to physiological blood, lymph and nerve pathways. An example is the radial artery path along the " lung vessel " . He does not believe in an engergetic invisible energy that is not based on physiology. He translates chi as vital breath and links it a lot with oxygen. (there are many differnt types of CHi) He was a teacher of mine years ago and he spent a lot of time researching the physiology of needleing. He also reads chinese and his book his basically his translation of the chinese texts. I happen to agree with Z'ev that Wang Ju Yi's book is definitive. I think we owe it to the medicine to become as well versed and educated as possible in all areas of information related to our system of medicine. It is a daunting job, but I think we all know what the results are. - In Traditional_ Chinese_Medicine , <zrosenbe@.. .> wrote: > > Yes, Wang Ju-yi's book on acupuncture channels with Jason Robertson is > far and away the best thing in English on this subject. . .it is > definitive. > > > > On Feb 21, 2009, at 2:31 PM, Hugo Ramiro wrote: > > > Hi all, another quotation for all of you to drool over: > > > > " Acupuncture channels are not ancient models of nerve, lymph, or > > blood vessel pathways but are instead something entirely different. " > > -Wang Ju-Yi in " Applied Channel Theory " > > > > I feel it's nice to hear authoritative statement of this nature. > > > > Hugo > > > > > > Hugo Ramiro > > http://middlemedici ne.wordpress. com > > http://www.chinesem edicaltherapies. org > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 23, 2009 Report Share Posted February 23, 2009 Curious if Mr. Kendall considered or had access to the physiological research of Dr. Kim Bonghan or more recent studies by Dr. Soh. Dr. Soh and others have had many studies of a microtubular system published in various peer-reviewed journals. As these structures appear to flow inside and along blood vessels, lymph vessels, follow the traditional pathways and attach directly to organs, makes some sense as to the interconnectedness of the network and yet their size makes them elusive. There are some interesting compounds that have been identified inside. Michael W. Bowser, LAc Chinese Medicine ykcul_ritsym Sun, 22 Feb 2009 18:18:36 -0800 Re: Re: Acupuncture Channels We will have to go into this again and again, as information comes in, and our own understanding develops. Mo yuan and cou li as dynamic, lots to say. --- On Sun, 2/22/09, kncherman <kncherman wrote: kncherman <kncherman Re: Acupuncture Channels Chinese Medicine Sunday, February 22, 2009, 7:12 PM D.E Kendalls book- The Dao of Chinese medicine has a different take on meridians ( which he says is a totaly incorrect term, he prefers vessels) He makes a case for acupuncture channels corresponding to physiological blood, lymph and nerve pathways. An example is the radial artery path along the " lung vessel " . He does not believe in an engergetic invisible energy that is not based on physiology. He translates chi as vital breath and links it a lot with oxygen. (there are many differnt types of CHi) He was a teacher of mine years ago and he spent a lot of time researching the physiology of needleing. He also reads chinese and his book his basically his translation of the chinese texts. I happen to agree with Z'ev that Wang Ju Yi's book is definitive. I think we owe it to the medicine to become as well versed and educated as possible in all areas of information related to our system of medicine. It is a daunting job, but I think we all know what the results are. - In Traditional_ Chinese_Medicine , <zrosenbe@.. .> wrote: > > Yes, Wang Ju-yi's book on acupuncture channels with Jason Robertson is > far and away the best thing in English on this subject. . .it is > definitive. > > > > On Feb 21, 2009, at 2:31 PM, Hugo Ramiro wrote: > >> Hi all, another quotation for all of you to drool over: >> >> " Acupuncture channels are not ancient models of nerve, lymph, or >> blood vessel pathways but are instead something entirely different. " >> -Wang Ju-Yi in " Applied Channel Theory " >> >> I feel it's nice to hear authoritative statement of this nature. >> >> Hugo >> >> >> Hugo Ramiro >> http://middlemedici ne.wordpress. com >> http://www.chinesem edicaltherapies. org >> >> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 23, 2009 Report Share Posted February 23, 2009 Mr. Kim Bongham's pre 1990's studies were controversial. If I have the person right. I am not someone who is averse to controversy, believe me, I swim in it, but the seperate chi pathways with tubules, etc, envisioned and described by him were given at a time of want for channel verification, on a level of tissue verification. Now we more understand all the very subtle energies operating in the living body, the variations of chi, not just another organ. All organs, mind, exist because of it, because it is pervasive, and infinite in the ways it nourishes. All our diagnostic skills, aim at seeing qi in its abundance or decline. I'm not saying he wasn't brilliant, our didn't see, or that maybe his work was misinterpreted. But I reviewed it, and the exact anotomical structures he pointed to were vague. Nonetheless, his work was a great stimulus to channel medicine, he challenged artfully, the premises of basic physiology. In just that respect, he was a great. --- On Sun, 2/22/09, mike Bowser <naturaldoc1 wrote: mike Bowser <naturaldoc1 RE: Re: Acupuncture Channels Chinese Traditional Medicine Sunday, February 22, 2009, 9:38 PM Curious if Mr. Kendall considered or had access to the physiological research of Dr. Kim Bonghan or more recent studies by Dr. Soh. Dr. Soh and others have had many studies of a microtubular system published in various peer-reviewed journals. As these structures appear to flow inside and along blood vessels, lymph vessels, follow the traditional pathways and attach directly to organs, makes some sense as to the interconnectedness of the network and yet their size makes them elusive. There are some interesting compounds that have been identified inside. Michael W. Bowser, LAc ykcul_ritsym@ Sun, 22 Feb 2009 18:18:36 -0800 Re: Re: Acupuncture Channels We will have to go into this again and again, as information comes in, and our own understanding develops. Mo yuan and cou li as dynamic, lots to say. --- On Sun, 2/22/09, kncherman (AT) pacbell (DOT) net <kncherman (AT) pacbell (DOT) net> wrote: kncherman (AT) pacbell (DOT) net <kncherman (AT) pacbell (DOT) net> Re: Acupuncture Channels Sunday, February 22, 2009, 7:12 PM D.E Kendalls book- The Dao of Chinese medicine has a different take on meridians ( which he says is a totaly incorrect term, he prefers vessels) He makes a case for acupuncture channels corresponding to physiological blood, lymph and nerve pathways. An example is the radial artery path along the " lung vessel " . He does not believe in an engergetic invisible energy that is not based on physiology. He translates chi as vital breath and links it a lot with oxygen. (there are many differnt types of CHi) He was a teacher of mine years ago and he spent a lot of time researching the physiology of needleing. He also reads chinese and his book his basically his translation of the chinese texts. I happen to agree with Z'ev that Wang Ju Yi's book is definitive. I think we owe it to the medicine to become as well versed and educated as possible in all areas of information related to our system of medicine. It is a daunting job, but I think we all know what the results are. - In Traditional_ Chinese_Medicine , <zrosenbe@.. .> wrote: > > Yes, Wang Ju-yi's book on acupuncture channels with Jason Robertson is > far and away the best thing in English on this subject. . .it is > definitive. > > > > On Feb 21, 2009, at 2:31 PM, Hugo Ramiro wrote: > >> Hi all, another quotation for all of you to drool over: >> >> " Acupuncture channels are not ancient models of nerve, lymph, or >> blood vessel pathways but are instead something entirely different. " >> -Wang Ju-Yi in " Applied Channel Theory " >> >> I feel it's nice to hear authoritative statement of this nature. >> >> Hugo >> >> >> Hugo Ramiro >> http://middlemedici ne.wordpress. com >> http://www.chinesem edicaltherapies. org >> >> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 23, 2009 Report Share Posted February 23, 2009 I believe Shin et al. in South Korea used DNA staining techniques to isolated the meridian sub systems, see http://www.chinesemedicinetimes.com/section/52/1/dna_staining_reveals_the_existe\ nce_of_the_meridian_sub_systems Regards, Attilio www.chinesemedicinetimes.com Chinese Medicine , mystir <ykcul_ritsym wrote: > > Mr. Kim Bongham's pre 1990's studies were controversial. If I have the person right. I am not someone who is averse to controversy, believe me, I swim in it, but the seperate chi pathways with tubules, etc, envisioned and described by him were given at a time of want for channel verification, on a level of tissue verification. Now we more understand all the very subtle energies operating in the living body, the variations of chi, not just another organ. All organs, mind, exist because of it, because it is pervasive, and infinite in the ways it nourishes. All our diagnostic skills, aim at seeing qi in its abundance or decline. > I'm not saying he wasn't brilliant, our didn't see, or that maybe his work was misinterpreted. > But I reviewed it, and the exact anotomical structures he pointed to were vague. > Nonetheless, his work was a great stimulus to channel medicine, he challenged artfully, the premises of basic physiology. In just that respect, he was a great. > > --- On Sun, 2/22/09, mike Bowser <naturaldoc1 wrote: > mike Bowser <naturaldoc1 > RE: Re: Acupuncture Channels > Chinese Traditional Medicine > Sunday, February 22, 2009, 9:38 PM > > > > > > > > Curious if Mr. Kendall considered or had access to the physiological research of Dr. Kim Bonghan or more recent studies by Dr. Soh. Dr. Soh and others have had many studies of a microtubular system published in various peer-reviewed journals. As these structures appear to flow inside and along blood vessels, lymph vessels, follow the traditional pathways and attach directly to organs, makes some sense as to the interconnectedness of the network and yet their size makes them elusive. There are some interesting compounds that have been identified inside. > > > > Michael W. Bowser, LAc > > > > ykcul_ritsym@ > > Sun, 22 Feb 2009 18:18:36 -0800 > > Re: Re: Acupuncture Channels > > > > We will have to go into this again and again, as information comes in, and our own understanding develops. Mo yuan and cou li as dynamic, lots to say. > > > > --- On Sun, 2/22/09, kncherman (AT) pacbell (DOT) net <kncherman (AT) pacbell (DOT) net> wrote: > > > > kncherman (AT) pacbell (DOT) net <kncherman (AT) pacbell (DOT) net> > > > > Re: Acupuncture Channels > > > > > > > > Sunday, February 22, 2009, 7:12 PM > > > > D.E Kendalls book- The Dao of Chinese medicine has a different take > > > > on meridians ( which he says is a totaly incorrect term, he prefers > > > > vessels) He makes a case for acupuncture channels corresponding to > > > > physiological blood, lymph and nerve pathways. An example is the > > > > radial artery path along the " lung vessel " . He does not believe in an > > > > engergetic invisible energy that is not based on physiology. He > > > > translates chi as vital breath and links it a lot with oxygen. (there > > > > are many differnt types of CHi) He was a teacher of mine years ago > > > > and he spent a lot of time researching the physiology of needleing. > > > > He also reads chinese and his book his basically his translation of > > > > the chinese texts. I happen to agree with Z'ev that Wang Ju Yi's book > > > > is definitive. I think we owe it to the medicine to become as well > > > > versed and educated as possible in all areas of information related > > > > to our system of medicine. It is a daunting job, but I think we all > > > > know what the results are. > > > > - In Traditional_ Chinese_Medicine , > > > > <zrosenbe@ .> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Yes, Wang Ju-yi's book on acupuncture channels with Jason Robertson > > > > is > > > > > far and away the best thing in English on this subject. . .it is > > > > > definitive. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Feb 21, 2009, at 2:31 PM, Hugo Ramiro wrote: > > > > > > > > > >> Hi all, another quotation for all of you to drool over: > > > > >> > > > > >> " Acupuncture channels are not ancient models of nerve, lymph, or > > > > >> blood vessel pathways but are instead something entirely > > > > different. " > > > > >> -Wang Ju-Yi in " Applied Channel Theory " > > > > >> > > > > >> I feel it's nice to hear authoritative statement of this nature. > > > > >> > > > > >> Hugo > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> Hugo Ramiro > > > > >> http://middlemedici ne.wordpress. com > > > > >> http://www.chinesem edicaltherapies. org > > > > >> > > > > >> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 23, 2009 Report Share Posted February 23, 2009 Read Dr. Robert Becker's Body Electric for a relatively thorough discourse on MET and acupuncture channels. Dr. Don Snow DAOM, MPH, L.Ac. Chinese Medicine ykcul_ritsym Sun, 22 Feb 2009 20:30:22 -0800 RE: Re: Acupuncture Channels Mr. Kim Bongham's pre 1990's studies were controversial. If I have the person right. I am not someone who is averse to controversy, believe me, I swim in it, but the seperate chi pathways with tubules, etc, envisioned and described by him were given at a time of want for channel verification, on a level of tissue verification. Now we more understand all the very subtle energies operating in the living body, the variations of chi, not just another organ. All organs, mind, exist because of it, because it is pervasive, and infinite in the ways it nourishes. All our diagnostic skills, aim at seeing qi in its abundance or decline. I'm not saying he wasn't brilliant, our didn't see, or that maybe his work was misinterpreted. But I reviewed it, and the exact anotomical structures he pointed to were vague. Nonetheless, his work was a great stimulus to channel medicine, he challenged artfully, the premises of basic physiology. In just that respect, he was a great. --- On Sun, 2/22/09, mike Bowser <naturaldoc1 wrote: mike Bowser <naturaldoc1 RE: Re: Acupuncture Channels Chinese Traditional Medicine Sunday, February 22, 2009, 9:38 PM Curious if Mr. Kendall considered or had access to the physiological research of Dr. Kim Bonghan or more recent studies by Dr. Soh. Dr. Soh and others have had many studies of a microtubular system published in various peer-reviewed journals. As these structures appear to flow inside and along blood vessels, lymph vessels, follow the traditional pathways and attach directly to organs, makes some sense as to the interconnectedness of the network and yet their size makes them elusive. There are some interesting compounds that have been identified inside. Michael W. Bowser, LAc ykcul_ritsym@ Sun, 22 Feb 2009 18:18:36 -0800 Re: Re: Acupuncture Channels We will have to go into this again and again, as information comes in, and our own understanding develops. Mo yuan and cou li as dynamic, lots to say. --- On Sun, 2/22/09, kncherman (AT) pacbell (DOT) net <kncherman (AT) pacbell (DOT) net> wrote: kncherman (AT) pacbell (DOT) net <kncherman (AT) pacbell (DOT) net> Re: Acupuncture Channels Sunday, February 22, 2009, 7:12 PM D.E Kendalls book- The Dao of Chinese medicine has a different take on meridians ( which he says is a totaly incorrect term, he prefers vessels) He makes a case for acupuncture channels corresponding to physiological blood, lymph and nerve pathways. An example is the radial artery path along the " lung vessel " . He does not believe in an engergetic invisible energy that is not based on physiology. He translates chi as vital breath and links it a lot with oxygen. (there are many differnt types of CHi) He was a teacher of mine years ago and he spent a lot of time researching the physiology of needleing. He also reads chinese and his book his basically his translation of the chinese texts. I happen to agree with Z'ev that Wang Ju Yi's book is definitive. I think we owe it to the medicine to become as well versed and educated as possible in all areas of information related to our system of medicine. It is a daunting job, but I think we all know what the results are. - In Traditional_ Chinese_Medicine , <zrosenbe@.. .> wrote: > > Yes, Wang Ju-yi's book on acupuncture channels with Jason Robertson is > far and away the best thing in English on this subject. . .it is > definitive. > > > > On Feb 21, 2009, at 2:31 PM, Hugo Ramiro wrote: > >> Hi all, another quotation for all of you to drool over: >> >> " Acupuncture channels are not ancient models of nerve, lymph, or >> blood vessel pathways but are instead something entirely different. " >> -Wang Ju-Yi in " Applied Channel Theory " >> >> I feel it's nice to hear authoritative statement of this nature. >> >> Hugo >> >> >> Hugo Ramiro >> http://middlemedici ne.wordpress. com >> http://www.chinesem edicaltherapies. org >> >> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 23, 2009 Report Share Posted February 23, 2009 Hi Donald. I have read 'Body Electric' and his 'Cross Currents'. Here's a great interview with him. http://www.energyfields.org/science/becker.html and some silver iontophoresis by him, this equipment is not hard to make . http://www.silvermedicine.org/robertobecker.html --- On Mon, 2/23/09, Donald Snow <don83407 wrote: Dr. Don Snow DAOM, MPH, L.Ac. ykcul_ritsym@ Sun, 22 Feb 2009 20:30:22 -0800 RE: Re: Acupuncture Channels Mr. Kim Bongham's pre 1990's studies were controversial. If I have the person right. I am not someone who is averse to controversy, believe me, I swim in it, but the seperate chi pathways with tubules, etc, envisioned and described by him were given at a time of want for channel verification, on a level of tissue verification. Now we more understand all the very subtle energies operating in the living body, the variations of chi, not just another organ. All organs, mind, exist because of it, because it is pervasive, and infinite in the ways it nourishes. All our diagnostic skills, aim at seeing qi in its abundance or decline. I'm not saying he wasn't brilliant, our didn't see, or that maybe his work was misinterpreted. But I reviewed it, and the exact anotomical structures he pointed to were vague. Nonetheless, his work was a great stimulus to channel medicine, he challenged artfully, the premises of basic physiology. In just that respect, he was a great. --- On Sun, 2/22/09, mike Bowser <naturaldoc1@ hotmail.com> wrote: mike Bowser <naturaldoc1@ hotmail.com> RE: Re: Acupuncture Channels traditional_ chinese_medicine Sunday, February 22, 2009, 9:38 PM Curious if Mr. Kendall considered or had access to the physiological research of Dr. Kim Bonghan or more recent studies by Dr. Soh. Dr. Soh and others have had many studies of a microtubular system published in various peer-reviewed journals. As these structures appear to flow inside and along blood vessels, lymph vessels, follow the traditional pathways and attach directly to organs, makes some sense as to the interconnectedness of the network and yet their size makes them elusive. There are some interesting compounds that have been identified inside. Michael W. Bowser, LAc ykcul_ritsym@ Sun, 22 Feb 2009 18:18:36 -0800 Re: Re: Acupuncture Channels We will have to go into this again and again, as information comes in, and our own understanding develops. Mo yuan and cou li as dynamic, lots to say. --- On Sun, 2/22/09, kncherman (AT) pacbell (DOT) net <kncherman (AT) pacbell (DOT) net> wrote: kncherman (AT) pacbell (DOT) net <kncherman (AT) pacbell (DOT) net> Re: Acupuncture Channels Sunday, February 22, 2009, 7:12 PM D.E Kendalls book- The Dao of Chinese medicine has a different take on meridians ( which he says is a totaly incorrect term, he prefers vessels) He makes a case for acupuncture channels corresponding to physiological blood, lymph and nerve pathways. An example is the radial artery path along the " lung vessel " . He does not believe in an engergetic invisible energy that is not based on physiology. He translates chi as vital breath and links it a lot with oxygen. (there are many differnt types of CHi) He was a teacher of mine years ago and he spent a lot of time researching the physiology of needleing. He also reads chinese and his book his basically his translation of the chinese texts. I happen to agree with Z'ev that Wang Ju Yi's book is definitive. I think we owe it to the medicine to become as well versed and educated as possible in all areas of information related to our system of medicine. It is a daunting job, but I think we all know what the results are. - In Traditional_ Chinese_Medicine , <zrosenbe@.. .> wrote: > > Yes, Wang Ju-yi's book on acupuncture channels with Jason Robertson is > far and away the best thing in English on this subject. . .it is > definitive. > > > > On Feb 21, 2009, at 2:31 PM, Hugo Ramiro wrote: > >> Hi all, another quotation for all of you to drool over: >> >> " Acupuncture channels are not ancient models of nerve, lymph, or >> blood vessel pathways but are instead something entirely different. " >> -Wang Ju-Yi in " Applied Channel Theory " >> >> I feel it's nice to hear authoritative statement of this nature. >> >> Hugo >> >> >> Hugo Ramiro >> http://middlemedici ne.wordpress. com >> http://www.chinesem edicaltherapies. org >> >> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 23, 2009 Report Share Posted February 23, 2009 I have his original monograph and did not find anything ambiguous about the descriptions or the photographs of said structures. Did I miss something? This was published in 1964. I am unaware of anything newer as I think he passed away prior. If others have additional studies in this area, I would appreciate getting a copy. This area interest me a lot. Thanks Michael W. Bowser, LAc Chinese Medicine ykcul_ritsym Sun, 22 Feb 2009 20:30:22 -0800 RE: Re: Acupuncture Channels Mr. Kim Bongham's pre 1990's studies were controversial. If I have the person right. I am not someone who is averse to controversy, believe me, I swim in it, but the seperate chi pathways with tubules, etc, envisioned and described by him were given at a time of want for channel verification, on a level of tissue verification. Now we more understand all the very subtle energies operating in the living body, the variations of chi, not just another organ. All organs, mind, exist because of it, because it is pervasive, and infinite in the ways it nourishes. All our diagnostic skills, aim at seeing qi in its abundance or decline. I'm not saying he wasn't brilliant, our didn't see, or that maybe his work was misinterpreted. But I reviewed it, and the exact anotomical structures he pointed to were vague. Nonetheless, his work was a great stimulus to channel medicine, he challenged artfully, the premises of basic physiology. In just that respect, he was a great. --- On Sun, 2/22/09, mike Bowser <naturaldoc1 wrote: mike Bowser <naturaldoc1 RE: Re: Acupuncture Channels Chinese Traditional Medicine Sunday, February 22, 2009, 9:38 PM Curious if Mr. Kendall considered or had access to the physiological research of Dr. Kim Bonghan or more recent studies by Dr. Soh. Dr. Soh and others have had many studies of a microtubular system published in various peer-reviewed journals. As these structures appear to flow inside and along blood vessels, lymph vessels, follow the traditional pathways and attach directly to organs, makes some sense as to the interconnectedness of the network and yet their size makes them elusive. There are some interesting compounds that have been identified inside. Michael W. Bowser, LAc ykcul_ritsym@ Sun, 22 Feb 2009 18:18:36 -0800 Re: Re: Acupuncture Channels We will have to go into this again and again, as information comes in, and our own understanding develops. Mo yuan and cou li as dynamic, lots to say. --- On Sun, 2/22/09, kncherman (AT) pacbell (DOT) net <kncherman (AT) pacbell (DOT) net> wrote: kncherman (AT) pacbell (DOT) net <kncherman (AT) pacbell (DOT) net> Re: Acupuncture Channels Sunday, February 22, 2009, 7:12 PM D.E Kendalls book- The Dao of Chinese medicine has a different take on meridians ( which he says is a totaly incorrect term, he prefers vessels) He makes a case for acupuncture channels corresponding to physiological blood, lymph and nerve pathways. An example is the radial artery path along the " lung vessel " . He does not believe in an engergetic invisible energy that is not based on physiology. He translates chi as vital breath and links it a lot with oxygen. (there are many differnt types of CHi) He was a teacher of mine years ago and he spent a lot of time researching the physiology of needleing. He also reads chinese and his book his basically his translation of the chinese texts. I happen to agree with Z'ev that Wang Ju Yi's book is definitive. I think we owe it to the medicine to become as well versed and educated as possible in all areas of information related to our system of medicine. It is a daunting job, but I think we all know what the results are. - In Traditional_ Chinese_Medicine , <zrosenbe@.. .> wrote: > > Yes, Wang Ju-yi's book on acupuncture channels with Jason Robertson is > far and away the best thing in English on this subject. . .it is > definitive. > > > > On Feb 21, 2009, at 2:31 PM, Hugo Ramiro wrote: > >> Hi all, another quotation for all of you to drool over: >> >> " Acupuncture channels are not ancient models of nerve, lymph, or >> blood vessel pathways but are instead something entirely different. " >> -Wang Ju-Yi in " Applied Channel Theory " >> >> I feel it's nice to hear authoritative statement of this nature. >> >> Hugo >> >> >> Hugo Ramiro >> http://middlemedici ne.wordpress. com >> http://www.chinesem edicaltherapies. org >> >> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 23, 2009 Report Share Posted February 23, 2009 I have heard that much of Becker's work in Body Electric has been discredited. Douglas ________________________________ Donald Snow <don83407 Chinese Traditional Medicine Monday, February 23, 2009 10:16:11 AM RE: Re: Acupuncture Channels Read Dr. Robert Becker's Body Electric for a relatively thorough discourse on MET and acupuncture channels. Dr. Don Snow DAOM, MPH, L.Ac. ykcul_ritsym@ Sun, 22 Feb 2009 20:30:22 -0800 RE: Re: Acupuncture Channels Mr. Kim Bongham's pre 1990's studies were controversial. If I have the person right. I am not someone who is averse to controversy, believe me, I swim in it, but the seperate chi pathways with tubules, etc, envisioned and described by him were given at a time of want for channel verification, on a level of tissue verification. Now we more understand all the very subtle energies operating in the living body, the variations of chi, not just another organ. All organs, mind, exist because of it, because it is pervasive, and infinite in the ways it nourishes. All our diagnostic skills, aim at seeing qi in its abundance or decline. I'm not saying he wasn't brilliant, our didn't see, or that maybe his work was misinterpreted. But I reviewed it, and the exact anotomical structures he pointed to were vague. Nonetheless, his work was a great stimulus to channel medicine, he challenged artfully, the premises of basic physiology. In just that respect, he was a great. --- On Sun, 2/22/09, mike Bowser <naturaldoc1@ hotmail.com> wrote: mike Bowser <naturaldoc1@ hotmail.com> RE: Re: Acupuncture Channels traditional_ chinese_medicine Sunday, February 22, 2009, 9:38 PM Curious if Mr. Kendall considered or had access to the physiological research of Dr. Kim Bonghan or more recent studies by Dr. Soh. Dr. Soh and others have had many studies of a microtubular system published in various peer-reviewed journals. As these structures appear to flow inside and along blood vessels, lymph vessels, follow the traditional pathways and attach directly to organs, makes some sense as to the interconnectedness of the network and yet their size makes them elusive. There are some interesting compounds that have been identified inside. Michael W. Bowser, LAc ykcul_ritsym@ Sun, 22 Feb 2009 18:18:36 -0800 Re: Re: Acupuncture Channels We will have to go into this again and again, as information comes in, and our own understanding develops. Mo yuan and cou li as dynamic, lots to say. --- On Sun, 2/22/09, kncherman (AT) pacbell (DOT) net <kncherman (AT) pacbell (DOT) net> wrote: kncherman (AT) pacbell (DOT) net <kncherman (AT) pacbell (DOT) net> Re: Acupuncture Channels Sunday, February 22, 2009, 7:12 PM D.E Kendalls book- The Dao of Chinese medicine has a different take on meridians ( which he says is a totaly incorrect term, he prefers vessels) He makes a case for acupuncture channels corresponding to physiological blood, lymph and nerve pathways. An example is the radial artery path along the " lung vessel " . He does not believe in an engergetic invisible energy that is not based on physiology. He translates chi as vital breath and links it a lot with oxygen. (there are many differnt types of CHi) He was a teacher of mine years ago and he spent a lot of time researching the physiology of needleing. He also reads chinese and his book his basically his translation of the chinese texts. I happen to agree with Z'ev that Wang Ju Yi's book is definitive. I think we owe it to the medicine to become as well versed and educated as possible in all areas of information related to our system of medicine. It is a daunting job, but I think we all know what the results are. - In Traditional_ Chinese_Medicine , <zrosenbe@.. .> wrote: > > Yes, Wang Ju-yi's book on acupuncture channels with Jason Robertson is > far and away the best thing in English on this subject. . .it is > definitive. > > > > On Feb 21, 2009, at 2:31 PM, Hugo Ramiro wrote: > >> Hi all, another quotation for all of you to drool over: >> >> " Acupuncture channels are not ancient models of nerve, lymph, or >> blood vessel pathways but are instead something entirely different. " >> -Wang Ju-Yi in " Applied Channel Theory " >> >> I feel it's nice to hear authoritative statement of this nature. >> >> Hugo >> >> >> Hugo Ramiro >> http://middlemedici ne.wordpress. com >> http://www.chinesem edicaltherapies. org >> >> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 23, 2009 Report Share Posted February 23, 2009 In actuality, modern research has substantiated much of his groundbreaking research. Of course, we all know that if something works, it is immediately " bashed. " Dr. Don Snow, DAOM, MPH, LAc Chinese Medicine knappneedleman Mon, 23 Feb 2009 10:54:56 -0800 Re: Re: Acupuncture Channels I have heard that much of Becker's work in Body Electric has been discredited. Douglas ________________________________ Donald Snow <don83407 Chinese Traditional Medicine Monday, February 23, 2009 10:16:11 AM RE: Re: Acupuncture Channels Read Dr. Robert Becker's Body Electric for a relatively thorough discourse on MET and acupuncture channels. Dr. Don Snow DAOM, MPH, L.Ac. ykcul_ritsym@ Sun, 22 Feb 2009 20:30:22 -0800 RE: Re: Acupuncture Channels Mr. Kim Bongham's pre 1990's studies were controversial. If I have the person right. I am not someone who is averse to controversy, believe me, I swim in it, but the seperate chi pathways with tubules, etc, envisioned and described by him were given at a time of want for channel verification, on a level of tissue verification. Now we more understand all the very subtle energies operating in the living body, the variations of chi, not just another organ. All organs, mind, exist because of it, because it is pervasive, and infinite in the ways it nourishes. All our diagnostic skills, aim at seeing qi in its abundance or decline. I'm not saying he wasn't brilliant, our didn't see, or that maybe his work was misinterpreted. But I reviewed it, and the exact anotomical structures he pointed to were vague. Nonetheless, his work was a great stimulus to channel medicine, he challenged artfully, the premises of basic physiology. In just that respect, he was a great. --- On Sun, 2/22/09, mike Bowser <naturaldoc1@ hotmail.com> wrote: mike Bowser <naturaldoc1@ hotmail.com> RE: Re: Acupuncture Channels traditional_ chinese_medicine Sunday, February 22, 2009, 9:38 PM Curious if Mr. Kendall considered or had access to the physiological research of Dr. Kim Bonghan or more recent studies by Dr. Soh. Dr. Soh and others have had many studies of a microtubular system published in various peer-reviewed journals. As these structures appear to flow inside and along blood vessels, lymph vessels, follow the traditional pathways and attach directly to organs, makes some sense as to the interconnectedness of the network and yet their size makes them elusive. There are some interesting compounds that have been identified inside. Michael W. Bowser, LAc ykcul_ritsym@ Sun, 22 Feb 2009 18:18:36 -0800 Re: Re: Acupuncture Channels We will have to go into this again and again, as information comes in, and our own understanding develops. Mo yuan and cou li as dynamic, lots to say. --- On Sun, 2/22/09, kncherman (AT) pacbell (DOT) net <kncherman (AT) pacbell (DOT) net> wrote: kncherman (AT) pacbell (DOT) net <kncherman (AT) pacbell (DOT) net> Re: Acupuncture Channels Sunday, February 22, 2009, 7:12 PM D.E Kendalls book- The Dao of Chinese medicine has a different take on meridians ( which he says is a totaly incorrect term, he prefers vessels) He makes a case for acupuncture channels corresponding to physiological blood, lymph and nerve pathways. An example is the radial artery path along the " lung vessel " . He does not believe in an engergetic invisible energy that is not based on physiology. He translates chi as vital breath and links it a lot with oxygen. (there are many differnt types of CHi) He was a teacher of mine years ago and he spent a lot of time researching the physiology of needleing. He also reads chinese and his book his basically his translation of the chinese texts. I happen to agree with Z'ev that Wang Ju Yi's book is definitive. I think we owe it to the medicine to become as well versed and educated as possible in all areas of information related to our system of medicine. It is a daunting job, but I think we all know what the results are. - In Traditional_ Chinese_Medicine , <zrosenbe@.. .> wrote: > > Yes, Wang Ju-yi's book on acupuncture channels with Jason Robertson is > far and away the best thing in English on this subject. . .it is > definitive. > > > > On Feb 21, 2009, at 2:31 PM, Hugo Ramiro wrote: > >> Hi all, another quotation for all of you to drool over: >> >> " Acupuncture channels are not ancient models of nerve, lymph, or >> blood vessel pathways but are instead something entirely different. " >> -Wang Ju-Yi in " Applied Channel Theory " >> >> I feel it's nice to hear authoritative statement of this nature. >> >> Hugo >> >> >> Hugo Ramiro >> http://middlemedici ne.wordpress. com >> http://www.chinesem edicaltherapies. org >> >> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 24, 2009 Report Share Posted February 24, 2009 Maybe I misunderstood Mike. Are you saying you believe thier is certainty about these tubules being 'the' qi conduits, or as in the article Attilio referenced, that they may be interesting to consider how they may play along with the channels? Fascia, cou li, mo yuan, these microscopic tubules, many things have been put up as the real meridians, but qi seems more ephemeral(yet powerful). The structures and the qi seem like they all overlap in functions and form somewhat. The implications are fascinating. People also forward their impression that mitochondria are storehouses of qi. All this could simultaneously be so. There should, I think, be systems of receptors, and feedback and feedforward loops to the qi flowing, generating, etc. I would imagine some subtle, and not so subtle anatomical structures to be specialized for Qi in the body. But haven't seen anything conclusive, or that can be said 'Ahah! this is the meridians'. Even biophotonics hasn't isolated the elusive channel. If something shows up, or doesn't, i'm ok. I like not having everything nailed down. --- On Mon, 2/23/09, mike Bowser <naturaldoc1 wrote: mike Bowser <naturaldoc1 RE: Re: Acupuncture Channels Chinese Traditional Medicine Monday, February 23, 2009, 1:32 PM I have his original monograph and did not find anything ambiguous about the descriptions or the photographs of said structures. Did I miss something? This was published in 1964. I am unaware of anything newer as I think he passed away prior. If others have additional studies in this area, I would appreciate getting a copy. This area interest me a lot. Thanks Michael W. Bowser, LAc ykcul_ritsym@ Sun, 22 Feb 2009 20:30:22 -0800 RE: Re: Acupuncture Channels Mr. Kim Bongham's pre 1990's studies were controversial. If I have the person right. I am not someone who is averse to controversy, believe me, I swim in it, but the seperate chi pathways with tubules, etc, envisioned and described by him were given at a time of want for channel verification, on a level of tissue verification. Now we more understand all the very subtle energies operating in the living body, the variations of chi, not just another organ. All organs, mind, exist because of it, because it is pervasive, and infinite in the ways it nourishes. All our diagnostic skills, aim at seeing qi in its abundance or decline. I'm not saying he wasn't brilliant, our didn't see, or that maybe his work was misinterpreted. But I reviewed it, and the exact anotomical structures he pointed to were vague. Nonetheless, his work was a great stimulus to channel medicine, he challenged artfully, the premises of basic physiology. In just that respect, he was a great. --- On Sun, 2/22/09, mike Bowser <naturaldoc1@ hotmail.com> wrote: mike Bowser <naturaldoc1@ hotmail.com> RE: Re: Acupuncture Channels traditional_ chinese_medicine Sunday, February 22, 2009, 9:38 PM Curious if Mr. Kendall considered or had access to the physiological research of Dr. Kim Bonghan or more recent studies by Dr. Soh. Dr. Soh and others have had many studies of a microtubular system published in various peer-reviewed journals. As these structures appear to flow inside and along blood vessels, lymph vessels, follow the traditional pathways and attach directly to organs, makes some sense as to the interconnectedness of the network and yet their size makes them elusive. There are some interesting compounds that have been identified inside. Michael W. Bowser, LAc ykcul_ritsym@ Sun, 22 Feb 2009 18:18:36 -0800 Re: Re: Acupuncture Channels We will have to go into this again and again, as information comes in, and our own understanding develops. Mo yuan and cou li as dynamic, lots to say. --- On Sun, 2/22/09, kncherman (AT) pacbell (DOT) net <kncherman (AT) pacbell (DOT) net> wrote: kncherman (AT) pacbell (DOT) net <kncherman (AT) pacbell (DOT) net> Re: Acupuncture Channels Sunday, February 22, 2009, 7:12 PM D.E Kendalls book- The Dao of Chinese medicine has a different take on meridians ( which he says is a totaly incorrect term, he prefers vessels) He makes a case for acupuncture channels corresponding to physiological blood, lymph and nerve pathways. An example is the radial artery path along the " lung vessel " . He does not believe in an engergetic invisible energy that is not based on physiology. He translates chi as vital breath and links it a lot with oxygen. (there are many differnt types of CHi) He was a teacher of mine years ago and he spent a lot of time researching the physiology of needleing. He also reads chinese and his book his basically his translation of the chinese texts. I happen to agree with Z'ev that Wang Ju Yi's book is definitive. I think we owe it to the medicine to become as well versed and educated as possible in all areas of information related to our system of medicine. It is a daunting job, but I think we all know what the results are. - In Traditional_ Chinese_Medicine , <zrosenbe@.. .> wrote: > > Yes, Wang Ju-yi's book on acupuncture channels with Jason Robertson is > far and away the best thing in English on this subject. . .it is > definitive. > > > > On Feb 21, 2009, at 2:31 PM, Hugo Ramiro wrote: > >> Hi all, another quotation for all of you to drool over: >> >> " Acupuncture channels are not ancient models of nerve, lymph, or >> blood vessel pathways but are instead something entirely different. " >> -Wang Ju-Yi in " Applied Channel Theory " >> >> I feel it's nice to hear authoritative statement of this nature. >> >> Hugo >> >> >> Hugo Ramiro >> http://middlemedici ne.wordpress. com >> http://www.chinesem edicaltherapies. org >> >> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 24, 2009 Report Share Posted February 24, 2009 If Qi is just oxygen, what about Yuan Qi, Zhong Qi, Gu Qi, Ying Qi etc....? There are at least 18 types of Qi described. Oxygen only seems to pertain to Zong Qi (partially) or Qing Qi. I don't think we can ascertain the meaning of this completely from the character of steam alone. There's also a functional meaning, which is lost from the limitation of reduction into one single element with an x amount of ionic bonds. It does seem that the Lung and LI channels correspond roughly to the radial artery/ nerve, but there are many more that are unexplained by their respective pathways. Deke writes that the ancients knew the length and weight of the solid and hollow organs. Then why didn't they depict the acupuncture vessels in the same precise manner if they do correspond to precisely blood, lymph and nerve structures? They had been doing cadavering for at least the times of the Warring States (military surgery), so why are the acupuncture vessels so unlike what we see in Grey's anatomy? Either they were inaccurate in their descriptions of the physical structures or they were accurate in describing something else. On the flip-side of this, I do think there are many correspondances between acupuncture vessels and innervation / lymphatic / blood vasculature, but like Kaptchuk writes... we practice a functional medicine, not merely a materialistic one. If we go by what has been written... stimulation of an acupuncture point can elicit a neural response through the brain which is relayed back to other structures of the body... there might be some kind of affinity between embryologically similar tissue (reflexology) and this type of mechanism which is non-local. In that case, we need to think non-linearly. Van Nghi talks about how these vessels are more like " fields " , which are hyper-dimensional. The Ren, Du, Chong and KD channel for instance all correspond to this strong field of primal Qi. It's not just moving in time and space. It already exists as potential. In comparison with kinetic energy, the potential is immensely more powerful, as the Stillness can move mountains and the Yin of Silence can defeat a deafening Bang! I think within 20 years, science will validate the classics. We don't have to dilute the medicine to be able to drink it. In fact, it might taste better if we let it age, like fine wine. On Mon, Feb 23, 2009 at 4:00 PM, mystir <ykcul_ritsym wrote: > Maybe I misunderstood Mike. Are you saying you believe thier is > certainty about these tubules being 'the' qi conduits, or as in the article > Attilio referenced, that they may be interesting to consider how they may > play along with the channels? > Fascia, cou li, mo yuan, these microscopic tubules, many things have been > put up as the real meridians, but qi seems more ephemeral(yet powerful). The > structures and the qi seem like they all overlap in functions and form > somewhat. The implications are fascinating. People also forward their > impression that mitochondria are storehouses of qi. All this could > simultaneously be so. There should, I think, be systems of receptors, and > feedback and feedforward loops to the qi flowing, generating, etc. I would > imagine some subtle, and not so subtle anatomical structures to be > specialized for Qi in the body. But haven't seen anything conclusive, or > that can be said 'Ahah! this is the meridians'. Even biophotonics hasn't > isolated the elusive channel. > If something shows up, or doesn't, i'm ok. I like not having everything > nailed down. > > > > > --- On Mon, 2/23/09, mike Bowser <naturaldoc1<naturaldoc1%40hotmail.com>> > wrote: > mike Bowser <naturaldoc1 <naturaldoc1%40hotmail.com>> > RE: Re: Acupuncture Channels > To: Chinese Traditional Medicine <Chinese Traditional Medicine%40yaho\ ogroups.com> > Monday, February 23, 2009, 1:32 PM > > > I have his original monograph and did not find anything ambiguous about the > descriptions or the photographs of said structures. Did I miss something? > This was published in 1964. I am unaware of anything newer as I think he > passed away prior. If others have additional studies in this area, I would > appreciate getting a copy. This area interest me a lot. > > Thanks > > Michael W. Bowser, LAc > > > > ykcul_ritsym@ > > Sun, 22 Feb 2009 20:30:22 -0800 > > RE: Re: Acupuncture Channels > > Mr. Kim Bongham's pre 1990's studies were controversial. If I have the > person right. I am not someone who is averse to controversy, believe me, I > swim in it, but the seperate chi pathways with tubules, etc, envisioned and > described by him were given at a time of want for channel verification, on a > level of tissue verification. Now we more understand all the very subtle > energies operating in the living body, the variations of chi, not just > another organ. All organs, mind, exist because of it, because it is > pervasive, and infinite in the ways it nourishes. All our diagnostic skills, > aim at seeing qi in its abundance or decline. > > I'm not saying he wasn't brilliant, our didn't see, or that maybe his work > was misinterpreted. > > But I reviewed it, and the exact anotomical structures he pointed to were > vague. > > Nonetheless, his work was a great stimulus to channel medicine, he > challenged artfully, the premises of basic physiology. In just that respect, > he was a great. > > --- On Sun, 2/22/09, mike Bowser <naturaldoc1@ hotmail.com> wrote: > > mike Bowser <naturaldoc1@ hotmail.com> > > RE: Re: Acupuncture Channels > > traditional_ chinese_medicine > > Sunday, February 22, 2009, 9:38 PM > > Curious if Mr. Kendall considered or had access to the physiological > research of Dr. Kim Bonghan or more recent studies by Dr. Soh. Dr. Soh and > others have had many studies of a microtubular system published in various > peer-reviewed journals. As these structures appear to flow inside and along > blood vessels, lymph vessels, follow the traditional pathways and attach > directly to organs, makes some sense as to the interconnectedness of the > network and yet their size makes them elusive. There are some interesting > compounds that have been identified inside. > > Michael W. Bowser, LAc > > > > ykcul_ritsym@ > > Sun, 22 Feb 2009 18:18:36 -0800 > > Re: Re: Acupuncture Channels > > We will have to go into this again and again, as information comes in, and > our own understanding develops. Mo yuan and cou li as dynamic, lots to say. > > --- On Sun, 2/22/09, kncherman (AT) pacbell (DOT) net <kncherman (AT) pacbell (DOT) net> > wrote: > > kncherman (AT) pacbell (DOT) net <kncherman (AT) pacbell (DOT) net> > > Re: Acupuncture Channels > > > > Sunday, February 22, 2009, 7:12 PM > > D.E Kendalls book- The Dao of Chinese medicine has a different take > > on meridians ( which he says is a totaly incorrect term, he prefers > > vessels) He makes a case for acupuncture channels corresponding to > > physiological blood, lymph and nerve pathways. An example is the > > radial artery path along the " lung vessel " . He does not believe in an > > engergetic invisible energy that is not based on physiology. He > > translates chi as vital breath and links it a lot with oxygen. (there > > are many differnt types of CHi) He was a teacher of mine years ago > > and he spent a lot of time researching the physiology of needleing. > > He also reads chinese and his book his basically his translation of > > the chinese texts. I happen to agree with Z'ev that Wang Ju Yi's book > > is definitive. I think we owe it to the medicine to become as well > > versed and educated as possible in all areas of information related > > to our system of medicine. It is a daunting job, but I think we all > > know what the results are. > > - In Traditional_ Chinese_Medicine , > > <zrosenbe@.. .> wrote: > > > > > > Yes, Wang Ju-yi's book on acupuncture channels with Jason Robertson > > is > > > far and away the best thing in English on this subject. . .it is > > > definitive. > > > > > > > > > > > > On Feb 21, 2009, at 2:31 PM, Hugo Ramiro wrote: > > > > > >> Hi all, another quotation for all of you to drool over: > > >> > > >> " Acupuncture channels are not ancient models of nerve, lymph, or > > >> blood vessel pathways but are instead something entirely > > different. " > > >> -Wang Ju-Yi in " Applied Channel Theory " > > >> > > >> I feel it's nice to hear authoritative statement of this nature. > > >> > > >> Hugo > > >> > > >> > > >> Hugo Ramiro > > >> http://middlemedici ne.wordpress. com > > >> http://www.chinesem edicaltherapies. org > > >> > > >> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 24, 2009 Report Share Posted February 24, 2009 I agree, in the places where there is 'nothing', the spaces, there's the point (and channels). --- On Mon, 2/23/09, <johnkokko wrote: <johnkokko Re: Re: Acupuncture Channels Chinese Medicine Monday, February 23, 2009, 10:43 PM If Qi is just oxygen, what about Yuan Qi, Zhong Qi, Gu Qi, Ying Qi etc....? There are at least 18 types of Qi described. Oxygen only seems to pertain to Zong Qi (partially) or Qing Qi. I don't think we can ascertain the meaning of this completely from the character of steam alone. There's also a functional meaning, which is lost from the limitation of reduction into one single element with an x amount of ionic bonds. It does seem that the Lung and LI channels correspond roughly to the radial artery/ nerve, but there are many more that are unexplained by their respective pathways. Deke writes that the ancients knew the length and weight of the solid and hollow organs. Then why didn't they depict the acupuncture vessels in the same precise manner if they do correspond to precisely blood, lymph and nerve structures? They had been doing cadavering for at least the times of the Warring States (military surgery), so why are the acupuncture vessels so unlike what we see in Grey's anatomy? Either they were inaccurate in their descriptions of the physical structures or they were accurate in describing something else. On the flip-side of this, I do think there are many correspondances between acupuncture vessels and innervation / lymphatic / blood vasculature, but like Kaptchuk writes... we practice a functional medicine, not merely a materialistic one. If we go by what has been written... stimulation of an acupuncture point can elicit a neural response through the brain which is relayed back to other structures of the body... there might be some kind of affinity between embryologically similar tissue (reflexology) and this type of mechanism which is non-local. In that case, we need to think non-linearly. Van Nghi talks about how these vessels are more like " fields " , which are hyper-dimensional. The Ren, Du, Chong and KD channel for instance all correspond to this strong field of primal Qi. It's not just moving in time and space. It already exists as potential. In comparison with kinetic energy, the potential is immensely more powerful, as the Stillness can move mountains and the Yin of Silence can defeat a deafening Bang! I think within 20 years, science will validate the classics. We don't have to dilute the medicine to be able to drink it. In fact, it might taste better if we let it age, like fine wine. On Mon, Feb 23, 2009 at 4:00 PM, mystir <ykcul_ritsym@ > wrote: > Maybe I misunderstood Mike. Are you saying you believe thier is > certainty about these tubules being 'the' qi conduits, or as in the article > Attilio referenced, that they may be interesting to consider how they may > play along with the channels? > Fascia, cou li, mo yuan, these microscopic tubules, many things have been > put up as the real meridians, but qi seems more ephemeral(yet powerful). The > structures and the qi seem like they all overlap in functions and form > somewhat. The implications are fascinating. People also forward their > impression that mitochondria are storehouses of qi. All this could > simultaneously be so. There should, I think, be systems of receptors, and > feedback and feedforward loops to the qi flowing, generating, etc. I would > imagine some subtle, and not so subtle anatomical structures to be > specialized for Qi in the body. But haven't seen anything conclusive, or > that can be said 'Ahah! this is the meridians'. Even biophotonics hasn't > isolated the elusive channel. > If something shows up, or doesn't, i'm ok. I like not having everything > nailed down. > > > > > --- On Mon, 2/23/09, mike Bowser <naturaldoc1@ hotmail.com<naturaldoc1% 40hotmail. com>> > wrote: > mike Bowser <naturaldoc1@ hotmail.com <naturaldoc1% 40hotmail. com>> > RE: Re: Acupuncture Channels > traditional_ chinese_medicine <traditional_ chinese_medicine %40. com> > Monday, February 23, 2009, 1:32 PM > > > I have his original monograph and did not find anything ambiguous about the > descriptions or the photographs of said structures. Did I miss something? > This was published in 1964. I am unaware of anything newer as I think he > passed away prior. If others have additional studies in this area, I would > appreciate getting a copy. This area interest me a lot. > > Thanks > > Michael W. Bowser, LAc > > > > ykcul_ritsym@ > > Sun, 22 Feb 2009 20:30:22 -0800 > > RE: Re: Acupuncture Channels > > Mr. Kim Bongham's pre 1990's studies were controversial. If I have the > person right. I am not someone who is averse to controversy, believe me, I > swim in it, but the seperate chi pathways with tubules, etc, envisioned and > described by him were given at a time of want for channel verification, on a > level of tissue verification. Now we more understand all the very subtle > energies operating in the living body, the variations of chi, not just > another organ. All organs, mind, exist because of it, because it is > pervasive, and infinite in the ways it nourishes. All our diagnostic skills, > aim at seeing qi in its abundance or decline. > > I'm not saying he wasn't brilliant, our didn't see, or that maybe his work > was misinterpreted. > > But I reviewed it, and the exact anotomical structures he pointed to were > vague. > > Nonetheless, his work was a great stimulus to channel medicine, he > challenged artfully, the premises of basic physiology. In just that respect, > he was a great. > > --- On Sun, 2/22/09, mike Bowser <naturaldoc1@ hotmail.com> wrote: > > mike Bowser <naturaldoc1@ hotmail.com> > > RE: Re: Acupuncture Channels > > traditional_ chinese_medicine > > Sunday, February 22, 2009, 9:38 PM > > Curious if Mr. Kendall considered or had access to the physiological > research of Dr. Kim Bonghan or more recent studies by Dr. Soh. Dr. Soh and > others have had many studies of a microtubular system published in various > peer-reviewed journals. As these structures appear to flow inside and along > blood vessels, lymph vessels, follow the traditional pathways and attach > directly to organs, makes some sense as to the interconnectedness of the > network and yet their size makes them elusive. There are some interesting > compounds that have been identified inside. > > Michael W. Bowser, LAc > > > > ykcul_ritsym@ > > Sun, 22 Feb 2009 18:18:36 -0800 > > Re: Re: Acupuncture Channels > > We will have to go into this again and again, as information comes in, and > our own understanding develops. Mo yuan and cou li as dynamic, lots to say. > > --- On Sun, 2/22/09, kncherman (AT) pacbell (DOT) net <kncherman (AT) pacbell (DOT) net> > wrote: > > kncherman (AT) pacbell (DOT) net <kncherman (AT) pacbell (DOT) net> > > Re: Acupuncture Channels > > > > Sunday, February 22, 2009, 7:12 PM > > D.E Kendalls book- The Dao of Chinese medicine has a different take > > on meridians ( which he says is a totaly incorrect term, he prefers > > vessels) He makes a case for acupuncture channels corresponding to > > physiological blood, lymph and nerve pathways. An example is the > > radial artery path along the " lung vessel " . He does not believe in an > > engergetic invisible energy that is not based on physiology. He > > translates chi as vital breath and links it a lot with oxygen. (there > > are many differnt types of CHi) He was a teacher of mine years ago > > and he spent a lot of time researching the physiology of needleing. > > He also reads chinese and his book his basically his translation of > > the chinese texts. I happen to agree with Z'ev that Wang Ju Yi's book > > is definitive. I think we owe it to the medicine to become as well > > versed and educated as possible in all areas of information related > > to our system of medicine. It is a daunting job, but I think we all > > know what the results are. > > - In Traditional_ Chinese_Medicine , > > <zrosenbe@.. .> wrote: > > > > > > Yes, Wang Ju-yi's book on acupuncture channels with Jason Robertson > > is > > > far and away the best thing in English on this subject. . .it is > > > definitive. > > > > > > > > > > > > On Feb 21, 2009, at 2:31 PM, Hugo Ramiro wrote: > > > > > >> Hi all, another quotation for all of you to drool over: > > >> > > >> " Acupuncture channels are not ancient models of nerve, lymph, or > > >> blood vessel pathways but are instead something entirely > > different. " > > >> -Wang Ju-Yi in " Applied Channel Theory " > > >> > > >> I feel it's nice to hear authoritative statement of this nature. > > >> > > >> Hugo > > >> > > >> > > >> Hugo Ramiro > > >> http://middlemedici ne.wordpress. com > > >> http://www.chinesem edicaltherapies. org > > >> > > >> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 24, 2009 Report Share Posted February 24, 2009 I was just curious if others have heard the theory that some have that Qi and Channels are correlated with Cerebral Spinal Fluid flow? I've seen some interesting things showing how CSF is not only flowing through brain ventricles and spinal cords but actually reaches out along nerves, out to organs, etc. Its relationship to health is apparent even with some not so apparent mechanisms which channel theory is similar. Hmmmm. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 25, 2009 Report Share Posted February 25, 2009 Is that the special clear yang channel? --- On Tue, 2/24/09, Brian Harasha <bharasha wrote: Brian Harasha <bharasha Re: Acupuncture Channels Chinese Medicine Tuesday, February 24, 2009, 5:04 PM I was just curious if others have heard the theory that some have that Qi and Channels are correlated with Cerebral Spinal Fluid flow? I've seen some interesting things showing how CSF is not only flowing through brain ventricles and spinal cords but actually reaches out along nerves, out to organs, etc. Its relationship to health is apparent even with some not so apparent mechanisms which channel theory is similar. Hmmmm. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 1, 2009 Report Share Posted March 1, 2009 Right, like the attack on Royal Rife and his ahead of its time vibrational medicine. http://www.electroherbalism.com/index.htm Chinese Medicine , Donald Snow <don83407 wrote: > > > In actuality, modern research has substantiated much of his groundbreaking research. Of course, we all know that if something works, it is immediately " bashed. " > > > > Dr. Don Snow, DAOM, MPH, LAc > > > > Chinese Medicine > knappneedleman > Mon, 23 Feb 2009 10:54:56 -0800 > Re: Re: Acupuncture Channels > > > > > > I have heard that much of Becker's work in Body Electric has been discredited. > > Douglas > > ________________________________ > Donald Snow <don83407 > Chinese Traditional Medicine > Monday, February 23, 2009 10:16:11 AM > RE: Re: Acupuncture Channels > > Read Dr. Robert Becker's Body Electric for a relatively thorough discourse on MET and acupuncture channels. > > Dr. Don Snow DAOM, MPH, L.Ac. > > > ykcul_ritsym@ > Sun, 22 Feb 2009 20:30:22 -0800 > RE: Re: Acupuncture Channels > > Mr. Kim Bongham's pre 1990's studies were controversial. If I have the person right. I am not someone who is averse to controversy, believe me, I swim in it, but the seperate chi pathways with tubules, etc, envisioned and described by him were given at a time of want for channel verification, on a level of tissue verification. Now we more understand all the very subtle energies operating in the living body, the variations of chi, not just another organ. All organs, mind, exist because of it, because it is pervasive, and infinite in the ways it nourishes. All our diagnostic skills, aim at seeing qi in its abundance or decline. > I'm not saying he wasn't brilliant, our didn't see, or that maybe his work was misinterpreted. > But I reviewed it, and the exact anotomical structures he pointed to were vague. > Nonetheless, his work was a great stimulus to channel medicine, he challenged artfully, the premises of basic physiology. In just that respect, he was a great. > > --- On Sun, 2/22/09, mike Bowser <naturaldoc1@ hotmail.com> wrote: > mike Bowser <naturaldoc1@ hotmail.com> > RE: Re: Acupuncture Channels > traditional_ chinese_medicine > Sunday, February 22, 2009, 9:38 PM > > Curious if Mr. Kendall considered or had access to the physiological research of Dr. Kim Bonghan or more recent studies by Dr. Soh. Dr. Soh and others have had many studies of a microtubular system published in various peer-reviewed journals. As these structures appear to flow inside and along blood vessels, lymph vessels, follow the traditional pathways and attach directly to organs, makes some sense as to the interconnectedness of the network and yet their size makes them elusive. There are some interesting compounds that have been identified inside. > > Michael W. Bowser, LAc > > > > ykcul_ritsym@ > > Sun, 22 Feb 2009 18:18:36 -0800 > > Re: Re: Acupuncture Channels > > We will have to go into this again and again, as information comes in, and our own understanding develops. Mo yuan and cou li as dynamic, lots to say. > > --- On Sun, 2/22/09, kncherman (AT) pacbell (DOT) net <kncherman (AT) pacbell (DOT) net> wrote: > > kncherman (AT) pacbell (DOT) net <kncherman (AT) pacbell (DOT) net> > > Re: Acupuncture Channels > > > > Sunday, February 22, 2009, 7:12 PM > > D.E Kendalls book- The Dao of Chinese medicine has a different take > > on meridians ( which he says is a totaly incorrect term, he prefers > > vessels) He makes a case for acupuncture channels corresponding to > > physiological blood, lymph and nerve pathways. An example is the > > radial artery path along the " lung vessel " . He does not believe in an > > engergetic invisible energy that is not based on physiology. He > > translates chi as vital breath and links it a lot with oxygen. (there > > are many differnt types of CHi) He was a teacher of mine years ago > > and he spent a lot of time researching the physiology of needleing. > > He also reads chinese and his book his basically his translation of > > the chinese texts. I happen to agree with Z'ev that Wang Ju Yi's book > > is definitive. I think we owe it to the medicine to become as well > > versed and educated as possible in all areas of information related > > to our system of medicine. It is a daunting job, but I think we all > > know what the results are. > > - In Traditional_ Chinese_Medicine , > > <zrosenbe@ .> wrote: > > > > > > Yes, Wang Ju-yi's book on acupuncture channels with Jason Robertson > > is > > > far and away the best thing in English on this subject. . .it is > > > definitive. > > > > > > > > > > > > On Feb 21, 2009, at 2:31 PM, Hugo Ramiro wrote: > > > > > >> Hi all, another quotation for all of you to drool over: > > >> > > >> " Acupuncture channels are not ancient models of nerve, lymph, or > > >> blood vessel pathways but are instead something entirely > > different. " > > >> -Wang Ju-Yi in " Applied Channel Theory " > > >> > > >> I feel it's nice to hear authoritative statement of this nature. > > >> > > >> Hugo > > >> > > >> > > >> Hugo Ramiro > > >> http://middlemedici ne.wordpress. com > > >> http://www.chinesem edicaltherapies. org > > >> > > >> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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