Guest guest Posted February 19, 2009 Report Share Posted February 19, 2009 Does anyone use the Acugraph 3 digital meridian imaging machine? If so how do you like it? Does anyone out there use a machine for diagnosis? If so what and how does it work? Steve Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 19, 2009 Report Share Posted February 19, 2009 Hi Steve, I've been receiving a lot of marketing materials from them this past month, and also posted this question to this list, Chinese Herbal Medicine, and PCOM alum lists, but I did not receive any replies. I contacted the company to ask them to provide me with testimonials from practitioners in similar demographic areas to mine (booniesville), but they had no one that matched. They promote it as a great way to gain new clients - by doing free diagnoses at fairs and public events, but those don't exist where I live! If you find out anything more, please let me know. Andrea Beth Traditional Oriental Medicine Happy Hours in the CALM Center 1770 E. Villa Drive, Suite 5 Cottonwood, AZ 86326 (928) 274-1373 --- On Thu, 2/19/09, snydez99 <snydez99 wrote: snydez99 <snydez99 Acugraph 3? Chinese Medicine Thursday, February 19, 2009, 10:15 AM Does anyone use the Acugraph 3 digital meridian imaging machine? If so how do you like it? Does anyone out there use a machine for diagnosis? If so what and how does it work? Steve --- Subscribe to the free online journal for TCM at Times http://www.chinesemedicinetimes.com Help build the world's largest online encyclopedia for Chinese medicine and acupuncture, click, http://www.chinesemedicinetimes.com/wiki/CMTpedia and adjust accordingly. Please consider the environment and only print this message if absolutely necessary. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 19, 2009 Report Share Posted February 19, 2009 This posting is not meant at any one particular person, but is more an expression of an opinion/warning against watering down our profession! You can do the same thing better than those machines by using pulse diagnosis, abdominal diagnosis and meridian palpation skillfully in the time it takes to set up the darn thing. And no I am not afraid of new tech, I love electronic gadgets and I am a sucker for new technology, but not when it's replacing " Shen-to-Shen " interaction with plastic, cupper circuits and electrodes to impersonal pile of flesh that happen to have a problem " interaction. " I have competed against a few different meridian diagnostic machines - polish, french and even a russian one some of my colleagues had bought - I beat them every time in diagnostic precision and since I had my hands on the patient being diagnosed it was much easier for me to device a proper treatment (needle size, depth of insertion, length of retention etc.) and get instantaneous results - far superior to those colleagues - And I am still only a novice light years away from reaching full potential!!! I have always wondered how it is that one think he/she can make a meridian diagnosis machine-thingy when there's not even any agreement on what - in Western scientific terms - the meridians really are. Are they bioelectrical pathways, fluid crystaline communication lines, connective tissue informational highways; are they light, sound, thermal, magnetic enteties or all of the above and then some? Constructing such a machine is arrogant; it is the same as assuming perfect knowledge of the meridian system isn't it? Using such a machine is based on ignorance and laziness on behalf of the practitioner - learn your trade properly and there's no need for a machine.... and then you won't need to waste time to go to any fare to show off your " fancy thing that goes bing " to attract patients. The patients will come automatically because knowing you medicine well will enable you to produce great results in treating patients and they will automatically refer new patients to you - it's simple: Know your trade, take pride in it and develop it! ....build it (not the machine) and they will come... Regards, Thomas tor, 19 02 2009 kl. 17:15 +0000, skrev snydez99: > Does anyone use the Acugraph 3 digital meridian imaging machine? If > so how do you like it? Does anyone out there use a machine for > diagnosis? If so what and how does it work? > > Steve > > > > > -- Althea Akupunktur Albanigade 23A, kld. 5000 Odense C Tlf.: 31 25 92 26 http://www.ditlivditpotentiale.dk RAB: 2006059 CVR: 27322646 Frøslev Mollerup Sparekasse Reg.: 9133 Konto: 2050409 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 19, 2009 Report Share Posted February 19, 2009 I have bought some machines, such as ryodo, in years past, and did not had good experiences with it and eventually stopped using them. The readings were not very clear. I talked to the makers of the acugraph, and they said this new machine is a vast improvement. My other concern has to do with the logistics of running a smooth clinic. I see clients in 30 minute intervals, and it's hard to fit more into that timeframe. I doubt that may clients want to pay extra, meaning I may have to work harder without any extra financial benefit. Also once you use the machine and tell the clients about the benefits for their treatment, the clients will ask to have the machine used every time. And how do you do that, if you have 2 or 3 treatment rooms going at a time. I think the greatest benefit is in the demonstration, maybe you can sell your services better; we live in a culture where people think hi-tech is better than low tech, and they may believe in the benefit of the machine. Also keep in mind that you need a computer that has to be hooked up to the acugraph at all times, meaning, you really need to spend more than just the machine. There are inevitable always cases that don't get the kind of results you want, and I sometimes wonder if a machine like the acugraph could be helpful in such situations; that's essentially why I keep looking at what's on the market.But it's a lot of money, in the absence of any evidence. I think it could be a great doctoral dissertation project to compare machine treatments to treatment as usual and evaluate the results and the client options. Regards, Angela Pfaffenberger, Ph.D. angelapfa www.InnerhealthSalem.com Phone: 503 364 3022 - Thomas Sørensen Chinese Medicine Thursday, February 19, 2009 10:43 AM Re: Acugraph 3? This posting is not meant at any one particular person, but is more an expression of an opinion/warning against watering down our profession! You can do the same thing better than those machines by using pulse diagnosis, abdominal diagnosis and meridian palpation skillfully in the time it takes to set up the darn thing. And no I am not afraid of new tech, I love electronic gadgets and I am a sucker for new technology, but not when it's replacing " Shen-to-Shen " interaction with plastic, cupper circuits and electrodes to impersonal pile of flesh that happen to have a problem " interaction. " I have competed against a few different meridian diagnostic machines - polish, french and even a russian one some of my colleagues had bought - I beat them every time in diagnostic precision and since I had my hands on the patient being diagnosed it was much easier for me to device a proper treatment (needle size, depth of insertion, length of retention etc.) and get instantaneous results - far superior to those colleagues - And I am still only a novice light years away from reaching full potential!!! I have always wondered how it is that one think he/she can make a meridian diagnosis machine-thingy when there's not even any agreement on what - in Western scientific terms - the meridians really are. Are they bioelectrical pathways, fluid crystaline communication lines, connective tissue informational highways; are they light, sound, thermal, magnetic enteties or all of the above and then some? Constructing such a machine is arrogant; it is the same as assuming perfect knowledge of the meridian system isn't it? Using such a machine is based on ignorance and laziness on behalf of the practitioner - learn your trade properly and there's no need for a machine.... and then you won't need to waste time to go to any fare to show off your " fancy thing that goes bing " to attract patients. The patients will come automatically because knowing you medicine well will enable you to produce great results in treating patients and they will automatically refer new patients to you - it's simple: Know your trade, take pride in it and develop it! ...build it (not the machine) and they will come... Regards, Thomas tor, 19 02 2009 kl. 17:15 +0000, skrev snydez99: > Does anyone use the Acugraph 3 digital meridian imaging machine? If > so how do you like it? Does anyone out there use a machine for > diagnosis? If so what and how does it work? > > Steve > > > > > -- Althea Akupunktur Albanigade 23A, kld. 5000 Odense C Tlf.: 31 25 92 26 http://www.ditlivditpotentiale.dk RAB: 2006059 CVR: 27322646 Frøslev Mollerup Sparekasse Reg.: 9133 Konto: 2050409 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 19, 2009 Report Share Posted February 19, 2009 Great idea about the doctoral dissertation, Angela. Andrea Beth Traditional Oriental Medicine Happy Hours in the CALM Center 1770 E. Villa Drive, Suite 5 Cottonwood, AZ 86326 (928) 274-1373 --- On Thu, 2/19/09, Angela Pfaffenberger, PH.D. <angelapfa wrote: I think it could be a great doctoral dissertation project to compare machine treatments to treatment as usual and evaluate the results and the client options. Regards, Angela Pfaffenberger, Ph.D. angelapfa www.InnerhealthSalem.com Phone: 503 364 3022 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 20, 2009 Report Share Posted February 20, 2009 I agree with Thomas. There is truly no end to the depth of skill one can cultivate with our medicine - whether through palpation of the meridians, taking of the pulse, observing the tongue, observing the patient, listening to the patient. The depths of cultivation available to us through CM are endless and there for the taking. Opting for machines that 'measure' meridian activity is a conscious decision on the part of the practitioner terminate their own cultivation of skill. Daniel Chinese Medicine , " snydez99 " <snydez99 wrote: > > Does anyone use the Acugraph 3 digital meridian imaging machine? If > so how do you like it? Does anyone out there use a machine for > diagnosis? If so what and how does it work? > > Steve > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 20, 2009 Report Share Posted February 20, 2009 On Feb 20, 2009, at 10:24 AM, Daniel Schulman wrote: > Opting for machines that 'measure' meridian activity is a > conscious decision on the part of the practitioner terminate their > own cultivation of skill. Daniel, Thomas and others, In one sense, I don't disagree with the main point that you both want to make - that we don't need machines to validate us, impress the public or build a practice. Yet, because I have been treated by a practitioner who uses one of these devices with a computer program, I want to weigh in again (I made this point not so long ago when this issue came up before) to say that one cannot make blanket statements as to why someone chooses to go this route. Just because it is not your choice, and doesn't appear to be a good choice for you, doesn't mean it's not a good choice for someone else. You really need to know something about the individual situation before making such judgments. I have to say, I feel like this rush to judgment and rush to condemn other people's choices expressed on this group is disturbing. The person I have seen who uses a machine like this was trained in Taiwan and worked in a large hospital there before coming to the states. To build his practice here he was teaching and seeing patients in multiple locations. The fact that the patient info is fed directly into the computer means the practitioner can track patient progress for years without carrying around files. My experience with this practitioner is that there is still a lot of shen to shen contact - a lot of talking, questioning, discussing life issues, etc. And it's not the machine who is treating the person - hello - the needles are inserted by the person, not the machine! The Qi of each meridian is measured at the jing well points in his system, and he also prescribes herbs. I added this note before, but will add it again - for 2 years I have been treated by this person and by Jeffrey Yuen, and their diagnoses have been nearly identical over the course of 2 yrs time. I didn't pick this practitioner for the machine - I didn't even know he used it when I went for my first appt. It's not my own style, but I do think it works in the hands of someone who is intelligent, well- trained and experienced (and able to work just as well without the machine if necessary.) It doesn't really matter to me whether someone feels my pulse at the wrist or probes the jing well points of my hands and feet. Both have led to good treatments, in my experience. RoseAnne > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 20, 2009 Report Share Posted February 20, 2009 Sorry, don't think i agree. I have an Acugraph, and I use it sometimes with patients. It never overrides my diagnosis, as I always do my hands on diagnosis with any patient. I find it effective for a certain kind of patient, that is, one that likes a certain kind of reassurance and some way that they can see/chart their progress. It isn't terminating or lessening my skill level in the least, just another clinical tool to use if i have the time and if the patient likes that sort of thing. I also use it sometimes when i give a talk for my clinic, it is just something concrete that potential patients can hold and think about and then hopefully book in to see me. It has gotten me patients. I think there is a (limited) place for such things. Larissa McGoldrick LAc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 20, 2009 Report Share Posted February 20, 2009 I agree, clinical effectiveness is a very complex set of skills that can include the use of tools. Jake fratkin, who has made a name on the lecture circle, uses one in his Boulder office. I lived in Boulder for a while and he definitely had a reputation with the general public for being a superior practitioner because he had a machine. I don't know if it was an acugraph or another device. I have a question for Larissa: Do you feel that when you encounter clients where you results are no good, that it helps to use the machine? Does it sometimes point you in a new and different direction or does it just confirm what you already know from tongue and pulses? Regards, Angela Pfaffenberger, Ph.D. angelapfa www.InnerhealthSalem.com Phone: 503 364 3022 - larissa mcgoldrick Chinese Medicine Friday, February 20, 2009 9:04 AM Re: Acugraph 3? Sorry, don't think i agree. I have an Acugraph, and I use it sometimes with patients. It never overrides my diagnosis, as I always do my hands on diagnosis with any patient. I find it effective for a certain kind of patient, that is, one that likes a certain kind of reassurance and some way that they can see/chart their progress. It isn't terminating or lessening my skill level in the least, just another clinical tool to use if i have the time and if the patient likes that sort of thing. I also use it sometimes when i give a talk for my clinic, it is just something concrete that potential patients can hold and think about and then hopefully book in to see me. It has gotten me patients. I think there is a (limited) place for such things. Larissa McGoldrick LAc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 20, 2009 Report Share Posted February 20, 2009 Do You have any picture o website, to know it better? Atentamente Dra. Adriana Moiron (Médica Veterinaria) TE. Móvil: 15-4434-4567 TE.Profesional: 54-011-4658-2750 Bs.As. Argentina Otros emails: adrianamoiron http://ar.geocities.com/adrianamoiron --- El jue 19-feb-09, snydez99 <snydez99 escribió: De: snydez99 <snydez99 Asunto: Acugraph 3? Para: Chinese Medicine Fecha: jueves, 19 de febrero de 2009, 2:15 pm Does anyone use the Acugraph 3 digital meridian imaging machine? If so how do you like it? Does anyone out there use a machine for diagnosis? If so what and how does it work? Steve Cocina Recetas prácticas y comida saludable http://ar.mujer./cocina/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 20, 2009 Report Share Posted February 20, 2009 RoseAnne, Thank you for your comment.... > Yet, because I have been treated by a practitioner who uses one of > these devices with a computer program, I want to weigh in again (I > made this point not so long ago when this issue came up before) to > say that one cannot make blanket statements as to why someone chooses > to go this route. Just because it is not your choice, and doesn't > appear to be a good choice for you, doesn't mean it's not a good > choice for someone else. You really need to know something about the > individual situation before making such judgments. I have to say, I > feel like this rush to judgment and rush to condemn other people's > choices expressed on this group is disturbing. As I pointed out in the very first line of my initial post: The post was not directed at any specific individual so I find it interesting that you bothered responding to it - many others didn't... .....and by the way choices are not good choices just because someone feel they are! My choices included! They are only good if they are ethical i.e. have been made in full consciousness with good intention, for the benefit of you AND the rest of the universe. Political correctness is one of the greatest killers of human potential! ...but I guess it is needed if ethical stadards (see above) are virtually non existent! ... Judging is not such a bad thing if it is done ethically correct! > My > experience with this practitioner is that there is still a lot of > shen to shen contact - a lot of talking, questioning, discussing life > issues, etc. And it's not the machine who is treating the person - > hello - the needles are inserted by the person, not the machine! I am a little confused here.... what does actually use the machine for then? > The > Qi of each meridian is measured at the jing well points in his > system, and he also prescribes herbs. Explain to me in clear objective scientific quantifiable measurable terms, please, what channel Qi is... What is it exactly being measured? > I added this note before, but will add it again - for 2 years I have > been treated by this person and by Jeffrey Yuen, and their diagnoses > have been nearly identical over the course of 2 yrs time. Great. This says absolutely nothing about the diagnostic machine considering your above statement about questioning, life issues etc. > I didn't pick this practitioner for the machine - I didn't even know > he used it when I went for my first appt. It's not my own style, but > I do think it works in the hands of someone who is intelligent, well- > trained and experienced (and able to work just as well without the > machine if necessary.) It doesn't really matter to me whether > someone feels my pulse at the wrist or probes the jing well points of > my hands and feet. Both have led to good treatments, in my experience. I am truly happy that you have been helped with your symptoms! :0) Thomas -- Althea Akupunktur Albanigade 23A, kld. 5000 Odense C Tlf.: 31 25 92 26 http://www.ditlivditpotentiale.dk RAB: 2006059 CVR: 27322646 Frøslev Mollerup Sparekasse Reg.: 9133 Konto: 2050409 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 20, 2009 Report Share Posted February 20, 2009 Chinese Medicine , " Angela Pfaffenberger, PH.D. " <angelapfa wrote: > " Do you feel that when you encounter clients where you results are no good, that it helps to use the machine? " I'd like to flip this around a little. It has something to do with the evolution of how we practice, and the choices we make along the way. For this, I look at my own habits and responses to acupuncture and its related therapies, including herbs. At the core of all of this, is the patient. As a patient - who happens to be a practitioner, and who travels a little - I've experienced a number of different treatments, from a number of folk in different places, each of whom is informed by different schools of thought, and by their own culture, environment etc. Here's what I've learnt: Depending on my presenting complaint, my frame of mind, where I am in my menstrual cycle, where I am in my life... you know, all the things... certain treatment methods and styles, and types of herbal preparation suit me for some things, and some work better for me than others. Over the years, I chose some of the practitioners because I was curious about what they do, and others were slightly-desperate choices, sight unseen, whilst traveling. In fact, these days when I need treatment, I'm quite promiscuous... I have 6 different folk I go to, for different reasons With the exception of one treatment, I've had the response I was hoping for. Once or twice, I've been transported to places I didn't know this work could take us. The treatment which was totally ineffective was from someone who felt the need to inform me, with enthusiasm bordering on religious zealotry, that his treatment style was the superior 'true' kind. So what happened? I resisted? He didn't spend time getting to know me, due to his lecture? It takes more than one session to really get into the swing of things? I wasn't a 'believer'? That style of acupuncture doesn't work for me when I have that particular presenting complaint? All of the above? Or something else? My point is that we need to remember we are not always going to be the best 'fit' for each of our patients. Some folk are going to do better with very classical practitioners, and others will respond to others, including those who use a bit of gadgetry. We let ourselves down and we fail our patients, if we rigidly and slavishly adhere to the 'one true way'. Here endeth the lesson, she says, tongue a little in cheek. Margi Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 20, 2009 Report Share Posted February 20, 2009 Thomas, I wasn't really writing in response to your post as much as to Daniel's. I remember many of your posts from the past as being quite intelligent and sensitive, and I guess we just don't see this one the same. That's OK! But in this case, I am the one who actually has the first-hand experience working with a practitioner who uses a probe to measure " Qi " at the jing well points, rather than taking a pulse diagnosis with fingertips. So I felt I should speak up. I just don't think it can be implied that, without exception, someone who uses one of these tools is making " unethical choices. " And if you knew me, you wouldn't suggest that I am a person who is caught up in being " politically correct. " It just isn't true. I'm sorry, I have to run out and can't answer other questions right now. Maybe I will later. thanks, and I didn't mean to offend you. RoseAnne On Feb 20, 2009, at 5:38 PM, Thomas Sørensen wrote: > RoseAnne, > > Thank you for your comment.... > >> Yet, because I have been treated by a practitioner who uses one of >> these devices with a computer program, I want to weigh in again (I >> made this point not so long ago when this issue came up before) to >> say that one cannot make blanket statements as to why someone chooses >> to go this route. Just because it is not your choice, and doesn't >> appear to be a good choice for you, doesn't mean it's not a good >> choice for someone else. You really need to know something about the >> individual situation before making such judgments. I have to say, I >> feel like this rush to judgment and rush to condemn other people's >> choices expressed on this group is disturbing. > > > As I pointed out in the very first line of my initial post: The > post was > not directed at any specific individual so I find it interesting that > you bothered responding to it - many others didn't... > > ....and by the way choices are not good choices just because someone > feel they are! My choices included! They are only good if they are > ethical i.e. have been made in full consciousness with good intention, > for the benefit of you AND the rest of the universe. > > Political correctness is one of the greatest killers of human > potential! ...but I guess it is needed if ethical stadards (see above) > are virtually non existent! ... Judging is not such a bad thing if > it is > done ethically correct! > > >> My >> experience with this practitioner is that there is still a lot of >> shen to shen contact - a lot of talking, questioning, discussing life >> issues, etc. And it's not the machine who is treating the person - >> hello - the needles are inserted by the person, not the machine! > > > I am a little confused here.... what does actually use the machine for > then? > > >> The >> Qi of each meridian is measured at the jing well points in his >> system, and he also prescribes herbs. > > > Explain to me in clear objective scientific quantifiable measurable > terms, please, what channel Qi is... What is it exactly being > measured? > > >> I added this note before, but will add it again - for 2 years I have >> been treated by this person and by Jeffrey Yuen, and their diagnoses >> have been nearly identical over the course of 2 yrs time. > > > Great. This says absolutely nothing about the diagnostic machine > considering your above statement about questioning, life issues etc. > > >> I didn't pick this practitioner for the machine - I didn't even know >> he used it when I went for my first appt. It's not my own style, but >> I do think it works in the hands of someone who is intelligent, well- >> trained and experienced (and able to work just as well without the >> machine if necessary.) It doesn't really matter to me whether >> someone feels my pulse at the wrist or probes the jing well points of >> my hands and feet. Both have led to good treatments, in my >> experience. > > > I am truly happy that you have been helped with your symptoms! > > :0) > > Thomas > > -- > Althea Akupunktur > Albanigade 23A, kld. > 5000 Odense C > > Tlf.: 31 25 92 26 > http://www.ditlivditpotentiale.dk > > RAB: 2006059 > CVR: 27322646 > > Frøslev Mollerup Sparekasse > Reg.: 9133 > Konto: 2050409 > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 20, 2009 Report Share Posted February 20, 2009 I agree with you Thomas. While I think it is fine to play with these machines if you want to, once you realize the power of diagnosis in our medicine just by contact, whether that is pulse, tongue, back shu points, hara diagnosis, or some other method then you realize the true value and power of the medicine, which is person to person and Shen to Shen. I trained with Vega testing, Voll testing etc. I think that their fundamental value is in asking clinically relevant questions; however the sensitivity to answer those questions lies with the practitioner, and all they need is their own amazing human instrument. Chinese Medicine , Thomas Sørensen <> wrote: > > This posting is not meant at any one particular person, but is more an > expression of an opinion/warning against watering down our profession! > > You can do the same thing better than those machines by using pulse > diagnosis, abdominal diagnosis and meridian palpation skillfully in the > time it takes to set up the darn thing. > > And no I am not afraid of new tech, I love electronic gadgets and I am a > sucker for new technology, but not when it's replacing " Shen-to- Shen " > interaction with plastic, cupper circuits and electrodes to impersonal > pile of flesh that happen to have a problem " interaction. " > > I have competed against a few different meridian diagnostic machines - > polish, french and even a russian one some of my colleagues had bought - > I beat them every time in diagnostic precision and since I had my hands > on the patient being diagnosed it was much easier for me to device a > proper treatment (needle size, depth of insertion, length of retention > etc.) and get instantaneous results - far superior to those colleagues - > And I am still only a novice light years away from reaching full > potential!!! > > I have always wondered how it is that one think he/she can make a > meridian diagnosis machine-thingy when there's not even any agreement on > what - in Western scientific terms - the meridians really are. Are they > bioelectrical pathways, fluid crystaline communication lines, connective > tissue informational highways; are they light, sound, thermal, magnetic > enteties or all of the above and then some? Constructing such a machine > is arrogant; it is the same as assuming perfect knowledge of the > meridian system isn't it? > > Using such a machine is based on ignorance and laziness on behalf of the > practitioner - learn your trade properly and there's no need for a > machine.... and then you won't need to waste time to go to any fare to > show off your " fancy thing that goes bing " to attract patients. The > patients will come automatically because knowing you medicine well will > enable you to produce great results in treating patients and they will > automatically refer new patients to you - it's simple: Know your trade, > take pride in it and develop it! > > ...build it (not the machine) and they will come... > > Regards, > > Thomas > > tor, 19 02 2009 kl. 17:15 +0000, skrev snydez99: > > Does anyone use the Acugraph 3 digital meridian imaging machine? If > > so how do you like it? Does anyone out there use a machine for > > diagnosis? If so what and how does it work? > > > > Steve > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > Althea Akupunktur > Albanigade 23A, kld. > 5000 Odense C > > Tlf.: 31 25 92 26 > http://www.ditlivditpotentiale.dk > > RAB: 2006059 > CVR: 27322646 > > Frøslev Mollerup Sparekasse > Reg.: 9133 > Konto: 2050409 > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 20, 2009 Report Share Posted February 20, 2009 Roseanne, Angela and Others, My comments were directed very specifically to the cultivation of skill, primarily diagnostic skill. What I wrote made no mention of (a) practitioners seeking validation, (b) wanting to impress the public, © practice building, (d) tracking the patient's records, (e) discussing life with the patient, (f) insertion of needles ---- so I am not sure why these points were raised. And I also have no doubt Roseanne received good treatments from both Yuen and her Taiwanese-with-machine. My comment also made no mention of the patient's experience. Nor do I see how Angela's recounting of a practitioner's good reputation with the public 'because he had a machine' has anything to do with what I was pointing to. If anything, I would suggest a practitioner buying a machine to 'impress the public' suggests (and I know this is going to unleash venom!) a level of superficiality on the part of the practitioner. I do agree Roseanne, I shouldn't make sweeping statements. There are always individual exceptions. For sure. But for the majority of us, and I have observed with many practitioners who have gone the 'jingwell-machine' root, there is a very very strong tendency to curtail diagnostic skill development. And is sooo very rich with the opportunity for diagnostic skill development. I am currently travelling a thousand miles once a month to study advanced pulse diagnosis and just with pulse diagnosis alone (not to mention tongue diagnosis, channel palpation, etc), there is just so much incredibly rich depth available to us - its breathtaking. I wasn't even suggesting using a machine was 'unethical' as Roseanne suggested. I made no comment on the ethics of it. I only suggested one thing, and one thing only - and I will modify it so it is not so sweeping - that I do think for MOST practitioners, choosing to use a 'jingwell machine' is ipso facto, choosing to curtail the cultivation of one's diagnostic skills to a very significant degree. Regards Daniel Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 21, 2009 Report Share Posted February 21, 2009 RoseAnne, Absolutely no offence taken! :0) fre, 20 02 2009 kl. 17:53 -0500, skrev RoseAnne Spradlin: > Thomas, > > I wasn't really writing in response to your post as much as to > Daniel's. > > I remember many of your posts from the past as being quite > intelligent and sensitive, and I guess we just don't see this one the > same. That's OK! > > But in this case, I am the one who actually has the first-hand > experience working with a practitioner who uses a probe to measure > " Qi " at the jing well points, rather than taking a pulse diagnosis > with fingertips. So I felt I should speak up. I just don't think it > can be implied that, without exception, someone who uses one of these > tools is making " unethical choices. " > > And if you knew me, you wouldn't suggest that I am a person who is > caught up in being " politically correct. " It just isn't true. > > I'm sorry, I have to run out and can't answer other questions right > now. Maybe I will later. > > thanks, and I didn't mean to offend you. > > RoseAnne > > On Feb 20, 2009, at 5:38 PM, Thomas Sørensen wrote: > > > RoseAnne, > > > > Thank you for your comment.... > > > >> Yet, because I have been treated by a practitioner who uses one of > >> these devices with a computer program, I want to weigh in again (I > >> made this point not so long ago when this issue came up before) to > >> say that one cannot make blanket statements as to why someone > chooses > >> to go this route. Just because it is not your choice, and doesn't > >> appear to be a good choice for you, doesn't mean it's not a good > >> choice for someone else. You really need to know something about > the > >> individual situation before making such judgments. I have to say, I > >> feel like this rush to judgment and rush to condemn other people's > >> choices expressed on this group is disturbing. > > > > > > As I pointed out in the very first line of my initial post: The > > post was > > not directed at any specific individual so I find it interesting > that > > you bothered responding to it - many others didn't... > > > > ....and by the way choices are not good choices just because someone > > feel they are! My choices included! They are only good if they are > > ethical i.e. have been made in full consciousness with good > intention, > > for the benefit of you AND the rest of the universe. > > > > Political correctness is one of the greatest killers of human > > potential! ...but I guess it is needed if ethical stadards (see > above) > > are virtually non existent! ... Judging is not such a bad thing if > > it is > > done ethically correct! > > > > > >> My > >> experience with this practitioner is that there is still a lot of > >> shen to shen contact - a lot of talking, questioning, discussing > life > >> issues, etc. And it's not the machine who is treating the person - > >> hello - the needles are inserted by the person, not the machine! > > > > > > I am a little confused here.... what does actually use the machine > for > > then? > > > > > >> The > >> Qi of each meridian is measured at the jing well points in his > >> system, and he also prescribes herbs. > > > > > > Explain to me in clear objective scientific quantifiable measurable > > terms, please, what channel Qi is... What is it exactly being > > measured? > > > > > >> I added this note before, but will add it again - for 2 years I > have > >> been treated by this person and by Jeffrey Yuen, and their > diagnoses > >> have been nearly identical over the course of 2 yrs time. > > > > > > Great. This says absolutely nothing about the diagnostic machine > > considering your above statement about questioning, life issues etc. > > > > > >> I didn't pick this practitioner for the machine - I didn't even > know > >> he used it when I went for my first appt. It's not my own style, > but > >> I do think it works in the hands of someone who is intelligent, > well- > >> trained and experienced (and able to work just as well without the > >> machine if necessary.) It doesn't really matter to me whether > >> someone feels my pulse at the wrist or probes the jing well points > of > >> my hands and feet. Both have led to good treatments, in my > >> experience. > > > > > > I am truly happy that you have been helped with your symptoms! > > > > :0) > > > > Thomas > > > > -- > > Althea Akupunktur > > Albanigade 23A, kld. > > 5000 Odense C > > > > Tlf.: 31 25 92 26 > > http://www.ditlivditpotentiale.dk > > > > RAB: 2006059 > > CVR: 27322646 > > > > Frøslev Mollerup Sparekasse > > Reg.: 9133 > > Konto: 2050409 > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 21, 2009 Report Share Posted February 21, 2009 Daniel, Thanks for the shift in tone. I'm glad you are recognizing your tendency to make sweeping statements and are making an adjustment. And I offer an apology if I dragged issues from other people's posts into my response to you. I have only known the one person who uses a pulse-graphing probe/ computer software, and you say you have known " many. " So I accept that you have witnessed a curtailment of cultivation of hands-on pulse diagnosis skills in the practitioners you have known who use a pulse-graphing machine. That would seem to be a fair assessment and rings true to me. The use of technology does often seem to have the effect of causing people to lose skills as they come to rely on instruments that measure, record and calculate things for them. People could once figure logarithms in their head, and then they used slide-rules, and now there's the hand-help computer. As someone mentioned already, western medicine relies on the thermometer, the x- ray machine, MRI, CT-scan, lab tests on body fluids, etc, etc. It's fine to want to protect and promote the hands-on skills of . I'm for that, and as a profession, I think we should do that. At the same time, we have to recognize that there will always be people in the field who want to engage with the available technology. To do so could be a sign of lack of confidence in one's skills, or indicate a disinclination to spend the time to really learn hands-on diagnostic skills. But it could also just indicate that the person, who may already have a fully developed set of manual skills and lots of clinical experience, also has an attraction to technology and wants to experiment. RoseAnne On Feb 20, 2009, at 6:55 PM, Daniel Schulman wrote: > Roseanne, Angela and Others, > > My comments were directed very specifically to the cultivation of > skill, primarily diagnostic > skill. What I wrote made no mention of (a) practitioners seeking > validation, (b) wanting to > impress the public, © practice building, (d) tracking the > patient's records, (e) discussing > life with the patient, (f) insertion of needles ---- so I am not > sure why these points were > raised. And I also have no doubt Roseanne received good > treatments from both Yuen and > her Taiwanese-with-machine. My comment also made no mention of the > patient's > experience. Nor do I see how Angela's recounting of a > practitioner's good reputation with > the public 'because he had a machine' has anything to do with what > I was pointing to. If > anything, I would suggest a practitioner buying a machine to > 'impress the public' suggests > (and I know this is going to unleash venom!) a level of > superficiality on the part of the > practitioner. > I do agree Roseanne, I shouldn't make sweeping statements. There > are always individual > exceptions. For sure. But for the majority of us, and I have > observed with many > practitioners who have gone the 'jingwell-machine' root, there is a > very very strong > tendency to curtail diagnostic skill development. And Chinese > Medicine is sooo very rich > with the opportunity for diagnostic skill development. I am > currently travelling a thousand > miles once a month to study advanced pulse diagnosis and just with > pulse diagnosis alone > (not to mention tongue diagnosis, channel palpation, etc), there is > just so much incredibly > rich depth available to us - its breathtaking. I wasn't even > suggesting using a machine > was 'unethical' as Roseanne suggested. I made no comment on the > ethics of it. I only > suggested one thing, and one thing only - and I will modify it so > it is not so sweeping - > that I do think for MOST practitioners, choosing to use a 'jingwell > machine' is ipso facto, > choosing to curtail the cultivation of one's diagnostic skills to a > very significant degree. > Regards > Daniel > > > > --- > > Subscribe to the free online journal for TCM at > Times http://www.chinesemedicinetimes.com > > Help build the world's largest online encyclopedia for Chinese > medicine and acupuncture, click, http:// > www.chinesemedicinetimes.com/wiki/CMTpedia > > http:// > and adjust > accordingly. > > Messages are the property of the author. Any duplication outside > the group requires prior permission from the author. > > Please consider the environment and only print this message if > absolutely necessary. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 22, 2009 Report Share Posted February 22, 2009 Maybe some of you remember the author E.F. Schumacher, an early environmentalist, who wrote a great little book called " Small is Beautiful " . He made a clear distinction between machines, which he said dominated human beings and reduced their humanity (giving the example of an automotive assembly line), and tools, which extended and enhanced human abilities and creativity. Our tools, such as needles and herbs, are also a technology. I think the problem lies when we look at modern medicine's reliance on expensive technologies which create a distance between not only a physician and his/her patient, but between the physician's judgment and that of the machine. I think we do have the tools in our minds, senses and hands to do a great deal of good for our patients, and if these technological devices can enhance that, all well and good. However, they will never replace or hide the skill, experience and knowledge base of devoted study and practice of classical Chinese medicine. I am quite a 'techie' myself, but I limit it to the use of great computers, software, and the internet. I don't use any modern technological enhancements to my diagnostic and treatment skills. This is my choice. I don't want to make the choice for any other practitioner, I just would like to see the classical philosophy, diagnostic and treatment methods survive in the modern era. On Feb 21, 2009, at 6:29 AM, RoseAnne Spradlin wrote: > Daniel, > > Thanks for the shift in tone. I'm glad you are recognizing your > tendency to make sweeping statements and are making an adjustment. > And I offer an apology if I dragged issues from other people's posts > into my response to you. > > I have only known the one person who uses a pulse-graphing probe/ > computer software, and you say you have known " many. " So I accept > that you have witnessed a curtailment of cultivation of hands-on > pulse diagnosis skills in the practitioners you have known who use a > pulse-graphing machine. That would seem to be a fair assessment and > rings true to me. The use of technology does often seem to have the > effect of causing people to lose skills as they come to rely on > instruments that measure, record and calculate things for them. > People could once figure logarithms in their head, and then they used > slide-rules, and now there's the hand-help computer. As someone > mentioned already, western medicine relies on the thermometer, the x- > ray machine, MRI, CT-scan, lab tests on body fluids, etc, etc. > > It's fine to want to protect and promote the hands-on skills of > . I'm for that, and as a profession, I think we > should do that. At the same time, we have to recognize that there > will always be people in the field who want to engage with the > available technology. To do so could be a sign of lack of confidence > in one's skills, or indicate a disinclination to spend the time to > really learn hands-on diagnostic skills. But it could also just > indicate that the person, who may already have a fully developed set > of manual skills and lots of clinical experience, also has an > attraction to technology and wants to experiment. > > RoseAnne > > On Feb 20, 2009, at 6:55 PM, Daniel Schulman wrote: > > > Roseanne, Angela and Others, > > > > My comments were directed very specifically to the cultivation of > > skill, primarily diagnostic > > skill. What I wrote made no mention of (a) practitioners seeking > > validation, (b) wanting to > > impress the public, © practice building, (d) tracking the > > patient's records, (e) discussing > > life with the patient, (f) insertion of needles ---- so I am not > > sure why these points were > > raised. And I also have no doubt Roseanne received good > > treatments from both Yuen and > > her Taiwanese-with-machine. My comment also made no mention of the > > patient's > > experience. Nor do I see how Angela's recounting of a > > practitioner's good reputation with > > the public 'because he had a machine' has anything to do with what > > I was pointing to. If > > anything, I would suggest a practitioner buying a machine to > > 'impress the public' suggests > > (and I know this is going to unleash venom!) a level of > > superficiality on the part of the > > practitioner. > > I do agree Roseanne, I shouldn't make sweeping statements. There > > are always individual > > exceptions. For sure. But for the majority of us, and I have > > observed with many > > practitioners who have gone the 'jingwell-machine' root, there is a > > very very strong > > tendency to curtail diagnostic skill development. And Chinese > > Medicine is sooo very rich > > with the opportunity for diagnostic skill development. I am > > currently travelling a thousand > > miles once a month to study advanced pulse diagnosis and just with > > pulse diagnosis alone > > (not to mention tongue diagnosis, channel palpation, etc), there is > > just so much incredibly > > rich depth available to us - its breathtaking. I wasn't even > > suggesting using a machine > > was 'unethical' as Roseanne suggested. I made no comment on the > > ethics of it. I only > > suggested one thing, and one thing only - and I will modify it so > > it is not so sweeping - > > that I do think for MOST practitioners, choosing to use a 'jingwell > > machine' is ipso facto, > > choosing to curtail the cultivation of one's diagnostic skills to a > > very significant degree. > > Regards > > Daniel > > > > > > > > --- > > > > Subscribe to the free online journal for TCM at > > Times http://www.chinesemedicinetimes.com > > > > Help build the world's largest online encyclopedia for Chinese > > medicine and acupuncture, click, http:// > > www.chinesemedicinetimes.com/wiki/CMTpedia > > > > http:// > > and adjust > > accordingly. > > > > Messages are the property of the author. Any duplication outside > > the group requires prior permission from the author. > > > > Please consider the environment and only print this message if > > absolutely necessary. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 22, 2009 Report Share Posted February 22, 2009 -Well said Zav, from what I can gather this device is a sales tool to bring in patients and retain them by showing them progress on these graphs. I think if I were to get one I might get sloppy or lazy and not try to refine my diagnostice skills. So even though my in box is full of e-mails from this company, which I have been told isn't run by Ac's I will pass on it Steve -- In Chinese Medicine , <zrosenbe wrote: > > Maybe some of you remember the author E.F. Schumacher, an early > environmentalist, who wrote a great little book called " Small is > Beautiful " . He made a clear distinction between machines, which he > said dominated human beings and reduced their humanity (giving the > example of an automotive assembly line), and tools, which extended and > enhanced human abilities and creativity. Our tools, such as needles > and herbs, are also a technology. I think the problem lies when we > look at modern medicine's reliance on expensive technologies which > create a distance between not only a physician and his/her patient, > but between the physician's judgment and that of the machine. I think > we do have the tools in our minds, senses and hands to do a great deal > of good for our patients, and if these technological devices can > enhance that, all well and good. However, they will never replace or > hide the skill, experience and knowledge base of devoted study and > practice of classical Chinese medicine. > > I am quite a 'techie' myself, but I limit it to the use of great > computers, software, and the internet. I don't use any modern > technological enhancements to my diagnostic and treatment skills. > This is my choice. I don't want to make the choice for any other > practitioner, I just would like to see the classical philosophy, > diagnostic and treatment methods survive in the modern era. > > > On Feb 21, 2009, at 6:29 AM, RoseAnne Spradlin wrote: > > > Daniel, > > > > Thanks for the shift in tone. I'm glad you are recognizing your > > tendency to make sweeping statements and are making an adjustment. > > And I offer an apology if I dragged issues from other people's posts > > into my response to you. > > > > I have only known the one person who uses a pulse-graphing probe/ > > computer software, and you say you have known " many. " So I accept > > that you have witnessed a curtailment of cultivation of hands-on > > pulse diagnosis skills in the practitioners you have known who use a > > pulse-graphing machine. That would seem to be a fair assessment and > > rings true to me. The use of technology does often seem to have the > > effect of causing people to lose skills as they come to rely on > > instruments that measure, record and calculate things for them. > > People could once figure logarithms in their head, and then they used > > slide-rules, and now there's the hand-help computer. As someone > > mentioned already, western medicine relies on the thermometer, the x- > > ray machine, MRI, CT-scan, lab tests on body fluids, etc, etc. > > > > It's fine to want to protect and promote the hands-on skills of > > . I'm for that, and as a profession, I think we > > should do that. At the same time, we have to recognize that there > > will always be people in the field who want to engage with the > > available technology. To do so could be a sign of lack of confidence > > in one's skills, or indicate a disinclination to spend the time to > > really learn hands-on diagnostic skills. But it could also just > > indicate that the person, who may already have a fully developed set > > of manual skills and lots of clinical experience, also has an > > attraction to technology and wants to experiment. > > > > RoseAnne > > > > On Feb 20, 2009, at 6:55 PM, Daniel Schulman wrote: > > > > > Roseanne, Angela and Others, > > > > > > My comments were directed very specifically to the cultivation of > > > skill, primarily diagnostic > > > skill. What I wrote made no mention of (a) practitioners seeking > > > validation, (b) wanting to > > > impress the public, © practice building, (d) tracking the > > > patient's records, (e) discussing > > > life with the patient, (f) insertion of needles ---- so I am not > > > sure why these points were > > > raised. And I also have no doubt Roseanne received good > > > treatments from both Yuen and > > > her Taiwanese-with-machine. My comment also made no mention of the > > > patient's > > > experience. Nor do I see how Angela's recounting of a > > > practitioner's good reputation with > > > the public 'because he had a machine' has anything to do with what > > > I was pointing to. If > > > anything, I would suggest a practitioner buying a machine to > > > 'impress the public' suggests > > > (and I know this is going to unleash venom!) a level of > > > superficiality on the part of the > > > practitioner. > > > I do agree Roseanne, I shouldn't make sweeping statements. There > > > are always individual > > > exceptions. For sure. But for the majority of us, and I have > > > observed with many > > > practitioners who have gone the 'jingwell-machine' root, there is a > > > very very strong > > > tendency to curtail diagnostic skill development. And Chinese > > > Medicine is sooo very rich > > > with the opportunity for diagnostic skill development. I am > > > currently travelling a thousand > > > miles once a month to study advanced pulse diagnosis and just with > > > pulse diagnosis alone > > > (not to mention tongue diagnosis, channel palpation, etc), there is > > > just so much incredibly > > > rich depth available to us - its breathtaking. I wasn't even > > > suggesting using a machine > > > was 'unethical' as Roseanne suggested. I made no comment on the > > > ethics of it. I only > > > suggested one thing, and one thing only - and I will modify it so > > > it is not so sweeping - > > > that I do think for MOST practitioners, choosing to use a 'jingwell > > > machine' is ipso facto, > > > choosing to curtail the cultivation of one's diagnostic skills to a > > > very significant degree. > > > Regards > > > Daniel > > > > > > > > > > > > --- > > > > > > Subscribe to the free online journal for TCM at > > > Times http://www.chinesemedicinetimes.com > > > > > > Help build the world's largest online encyclopedia for Chinese > > > medicine and acupuncture, click, http:// > > > www.chinesemedicinetimes.com/wiki/CMTpedia > > > > > > http:// > > > and adjust > > > accordingly. > > > > > > Messages are the property of the author. Any duplication outside > > > the group requires prior permission from the author. > > > > > > Please consider the environment and only print this message if > > > absolutely necessary. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You are posting as a guest. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.