Infertility

October 20, 2002

There was a system at school that I use in clinic now using a basal body

temperature (bbt) chart to aid your diagnosis. The bbt should be lower

during the follicular than in the luteal phase. If the temp during the

follicular phase isn't below 98.0', then you might suspect Ki Yin Xu

(except EPI, incorrect temperature taking, etc..). If the temp during

the luteal phase doesn't rise above 98.0', then you might suspect Ki

Yang Xu. Also, I was taught to not move blood after ovulation until

menses, to protect the fetus (if conception occurs). If there's Blood

Yu, then move it during the menses. Usually tonify after the menses has

stopped, and move Qi after ovulation (if present). Moving Qi after

ovulation is ok if there's conception, but not moving Blood. I found

this approach very helpful in my practice.

Geoff

> __________

>

> Message: 3

> Sat, 19 Oct 2002 11:37:00 -0700

> <

> infertility

>

> Bob, Sharon and others with this focus

>

> One of my interns told me it is standard practice in china to treat

> infertility according to the four phases of the cycle. So,

> for example,

> after ovulation (if I remember correctly), it is necessary to

> supplement

> yang. so even if the women is not yang xu, it is necessary

> to supplement

> yang at this stage. At each stage one should treat the

> presenting pattern

> PLUS add herbs appropriate to the stage regardless of

> pattern. I have

> also seen others just treat the pattern and argue against

> treating what

> does not present. I know there is the same divide over how to treat

> menstrual complaints.

>

> So I am wondering:

>

> 1. Is this indeed the most common approach reflected in the chinese

> literature

>

> 2. do people use this approach

>

> 3. do they find it more or less effective than treating only the

> presentation

>

> this is somwhat akin to a question of bian bing versus bian

> zheng? does

> infertility as a bing have certain characteristics that are addressed

> similarly regardless of zheng.

>

> Chinese Herbs

> voice:

> fax:

>

July 7, 2005

Jane Lyttleton - The Treatment of Infertility with , (Elsevier)

LiFang Liang - Acupuncture and IVF (while IVF focused, lots of good,

relevant info for infertility) (Blue Poppy)

Zita West - Acupuncture in Pregnancy (Elsevier)

Good luck - it is really rewarding>

Marnae

At 10:14 AM 7/7/2005, you wrote:

>Hello All,

>

>I have recently begun to work with a midwife here in the Sedona area, and

>we have been discussing the use of acupuncture and herbs for women with

>difficulty achieving or maintaining pregnancy. So far, I have not

>treated anyone for infertility, and am wondering what good books and

>teachers are out there. Does anyone have any recommendations?

>

>Thank you,

>

July 8, 2005

Thank you, Marnae, for the information. Do you think these books are adequate,

or do you recommend I also look into CEU classes with a specific instructor?

Blessings,

Marnae Ergil <marnae wrote:

Jane Lyttleton - The Treatment of Infertility with , (Elsevier)

LiFang Liang - Acupuncture and IVF (while IVF focused, lots of good,

relevant info for infertility) (Blue Poppy)

Zita West - Acupuncture in Pregnancy (Elsevier)

Good luck - it is really rewarding>

Marnae

At 10:14 AM 7/7/2005, you wrote:

>Hello All,

>

>I have recently begun to work with a midwife here in the Sedona area, and

>we have been discussing the use of acupuncture and herbs for women with

>difficulty achieving or maintaining pregnancy. So far, I have not

>treated anyone for infertility, and am wondering what good books and

>teachers are out there. Does anyone have any recommendations?

>

>Thank you,

>

July 8, 2005

Andrea,

Fertileheart.com is an interesting site for people going through

the difficult and perhaps expensive and lengthy process to

become fertile.

So your job is to know the facts, the vocabulary, the Western

medical process of lab work that routinely gets done. I second

Marnae's book recommendations.

Then you have to know your malpractice limitations with OB/GYN.

I work in an office for an acupuncturist who specializes in fertility

and would be happy to go more personally in length on what I

have observed in the world of fertility.

I liked what Raven Lang, a midwife and acupuncturist from Santa

Cruz said at a workshop at the CSOMA 2004

conference: something like, it is harder to plant a seedling

than plant a seed. Something to keep in mind working with

Assisted Reproductive approaches such as IUI, and IVF cases.

Ellie Schafer, L.Ac.

, Andrea Beth

Damsky <> wrote:

> Thank you, Marnae, for the information. Do you think these

books are adequate, or do you recommend I also look into CEU

classes with a specific instructor?

>

> Blessings,

>

> Marnae Ergil <marnae@p...> wrote:

> Jane Lyttleton - The Treatment of Infertility with Chinese

Medicine, (Elsevier)

> LiFang Liang - Acupuncture and IVF (while IVF focused, lots of

good,

> relevant info for infertility) (Blue Poppy)

> Zita West - Acupuncture in Pregnancy (Elsevier)

>

> Good luck - it is really rewarding>

>

> Marnae

>

> At 10:14 AM 7/7/2005, you wrote:

> >Hello All,

> >

> >I have recently begun to work with a midwife here in the

Sedona area, and

> >we have been discussing the use of acupuncture and herbs

for women with

> >difficulty achieving or maintaining pregnancy. So far, I have

not

> >treated anyone for infertility, and am wondering what good

books and

> >teachers are out there. Does anyone have any

recommendations?

> >

> >Thank you,

> >

>

>_______________

_

> >

> >Tired of spam? Mail has the best spam protection

around

> >

July 9, 2005

Hey there,

I agree with Marnae that Jane Lyttleton's book is very good. She has some

specific information about reading a BBT chart which can be key in diagnosing

the patient as well as suggested herbal formulas to use. I believe that if you

study that book thoroughly you could treat infertility without taking a CEU

class but if there is one in your area why wouldn't you? There is always more

to learn!

As far as acupuncture and IVF... have you read the German Study? I can send

you a copy if you like. It has points and protocol for acupuncture just before

and just after IVF transfer. I have been using it, as have some folks I know,

with great success.

Good luck!

Victoria Koos L.Ac.

-

Friday, July 08, 2005 11:09 AM

Re: Infertility

Thank you, Marnae, for the information. Do you think these books are

adequate, or do you recommend I also look into CEU classes with a specific

instructor?

Blessings,

Marnae Ergil <marnae wrote:

Jane Lyttleton - The Treatment of Infertility with ,

(Elsevier)

LiFang Liang - Acupuncture and IVF (while IVF focused, lots of good,

relevant info for infertility) (Blue Poppy)

Zita West - Acupuncture in Pregnancy (Elsevier)

Good luck - it is really rewarding>

Marnae

At 10:14 AM 7/7/2005, you wrote:

>Hello All,

>

>I have recently begun to work with a midwife here in the Sedona area, and

>we have been discussing the use of acupuncture and herbs for women with

>difficulty achieving or maintaining pregnancy. So far, I have not

>treated anyone for infertility, and am wondering what good books and

>teachers are out there. Does anyone have any recommendations?

>

>Thank you,

>

July 12, 2005

These books are a good place to start. Classes are always great - there

was just a class taught by Raven Lang (I think) up in San Francisco - she

is a midwife and L.Ac - I don't really know who is teaching on the West

coast these days, but I'm sure there are plenty. I have found that using

these books, with a good understanding of TCM gynecology and an

understanding of female physiology and pathology is generally enough to get

you started. One of the most important things to have a woman do is chart

her basal body temperature. Ovulation kits are not nearly as accurate and

the BBT chart can give you some good information that can be interpreted

from a TCM point of view. I have found in some cases that it is as easy as

doing a few good charts and noticing that ovulation is happening

earlier/later than the woman thought - there wasn't really infertility,

just not having intercourse at the right time! Also, remember that what is

very basic to the treatment of infertility is regulating the menstrual

cycle, so, if you understand basic TCM gynecology you can usually get

pretty far. Traditional books on the treatment of female disorders did not

talk specifically about infertility or an inability to conceive, they

discussed disorders of the menstrual cycle. If the menstrual cycle is

regulated, then, most likely ovulation is occuring and pregnancy is

theoretically possible. There is also the issue of observing the cervical

mucous - how much, quality etc., and regulating that as well. Remember

that the tian gui includes menstrual blood (which is blood sent from the

heart via the bao mai and kidney essence which is sent via the bao luo)

and cervical mucous so both of these need to be considered. Blue Poppy's

Handbook of Menstrual Diseases in CM is also very useful, especially in

terms of theory. Good luck finding a class - I am teaching at TAI Sophia

in January for a weekend if you want to come out!

Marnae

At 11:09 AM 7/8/2005, you wrote:

>Thank you, Marnae, for the information. Do you think these books are

>adequate, or do you recommend I also look into CEU classes with a specific

>instructor?

>

>Blessings,

>

>Marnae Ergil <marnae wrote:

>Jane Lyttleton - The Treatment of Infertility with ,

>(Elsevier)

>LiFang Liang - Acupuncture and IVF (while IVF focused, lots of good,

>relevant info for infertility) (Blue Poppy)

>Zita West - Acupuncture in Pregnancy (Elsevier)

>

>Good luck - it is really rewarding>

>

>Marnae

>

>At 10:14 AM 7/7/2005, you wrote:

> >Hello All,

> >

> >I have recently begun to work with a midwife here in the Sedona area, and

> >we have been discussing the use of acupuncture and herbs for women with

> >difficulty achieving or maintaining pregnancy. So far, I have not

> >treated anyone for infertility, and am wondering what good books and

> >teachers are out there. Does anyone have any recommendations?

> >

> >Thank you,

> >

July 12, 2005

Marnae,

these are good observational items you mention for helping the infertile

patient. There are deeper issues which these will not identify which need to be

considered such as longer term use of birth control pills can de-synchonize the

FSH/LH and ovulation, meaning the ovulation may show up on the basal body temp

but the FSH/LH surge does not occur w/ the ovulation, nor will it show in the

basal body temp.

Another issues is chronic food sensitivity which effects the gut mediated

lymphatic system resulting in low DHEA which then depletes progesterone. The low

progesterone will show up in the luteal phase of the basal body temp as low

temp, however warming herbs will not resolve the issue, ie increase the

progesterone.....just some additional thoughts

Warren Cargal, L. Ac

>

> Marnae Ergil <marnae

> 2005/07/12 Tue AM 10:00:34 EDT

>

> Re: Infertility

>

July 12, 2005

Absolutely on both counts!

Marnae

At 10:57 AM 7/12/2005, you wrote:

>Marnae,

>

>these are good observational items you mention for helping the infertile

>patient. There are deeper issues which these will not identify which need

>to be considered such as longer term use of birth control pills can

>de-synchonize the FSH/LH and ovulation, meaning the ovulation may show up

>on the basal body temp but the FSH/LH surge does not occur w/ the

>ovulation, nor will it show in the basal body temp.

>

>Another issues is chronic food sensitivity which effects the gut mediated

>lymphatic system resulting in low DHEA which then depletes progesterone.

>The low progesterone will show up in the luteal phase of the basal body

>temp as low temp, however warming herbs will not resolve the issue, ie

>increase the progesterone.....just some additional thoughts

>

>Warren Cargal, L. Ac

> >

> > Marnae Ergil <marnae

> > 2005/07/12 Tue AM 10:00:34 EDT

> >

> > Re: Infertility

> >

>

>Chinese Herbal Medicine offers various professional services, including

>board approved continuing education classes, an annual conference and a

>free discussion forum in Chinese Herbal Medicine.

>

July 12, 2005

Thank you, Marnae. I truly appreciate your insight and information!

Andrea Beth