Guest guest Posted February 20, 2009 Report Share Posted February 20, 2009 ANATOMY OF MELANCHOLY by Robert Burton. It seems to me that " traditional western medicine " is very similar to TCM. Only without the needles. There were even western forms of QiGong and martial arts. - " " <zrosenbe <Chinese Medicine > Tuesday, February 17, 2009 2:28 PM Re: Re: Herbs in Italy >I know it sounds impractical, but there are some indigenous traditions > in Europe, based on the Greco/Arabic four humor medicine of Galen, > Hippocrates and Ibn Sina, that would provide more than enough > ideological framework for the practice of herbal medicine. I've found > it intact in the works of Moses Maimonides. There is a large extant > classical literature in the subject, it just needs to be revived. It > survives in the 'terrain' mentality of French physicians, and to some > degree in Homeopathy, which is still rather popular throughout Europe. > > Dr. Yves Requena wrote an excellent book on European Phytotherapy, > applying the principles of Chinese medicine. > > > On Feb 17, 2009, at 2:19 PM, wrote: > >> To be honest, most of the indigenous herbal tradition is long gone. >> For example, in the UK, the use of indigenous herbs is based upon >> their actions using WM theory, whereas Chinese medicine actions, i.e. >> Yin, Yang, Qi and Blood def/excess/stag, etc remain intact. All the >> diagnostic texts (if any existed) were lost. >> >> Now, what's left is being finished off. This is largely because of a >> group of Belgium doctors mixing Fang Ji with other toxic WM and >> killing or seriously damaging a lot of their patients. See the >> McIntyre interview for further info. >> >> It's funny, but now in western countries such as the UK, Ireland and >> USA, an animal can get better healthcare (when they are treated by a >> Vet that combines the use of WM and Chinese medicine) than most people >> living in France, Spain and Italy! >> >> Attilio >> www.chinesemedicinetimes.com >> >> Chinese Medicine , >> <zrosenbe wrote: >> > >> > That is beyond absurd, it is insane. . . herbal medicine has been a >> > major part of health care in Europe for millenia. Does that mean >> only >> > drugs are left? Then pity the health of the Frenchman or woman. . >> > >> > >> > On Feb 17, 2009, at 12:20 PM, wrote: >> > >> > > Most indigenous herbal traditions were stamped out by the Catholic >> > > church a long time ago. But yes, that includes all herbs, read >> Stephen >> > > Gascoigne's article Are You a Nettle's Friend, which talks about >> how >> > > even teaching the use of indigenous herbs is now illegal in >> France: >> > > >> http://www.chinesemedicinetimes.com/section/136/1/are_you_a_nettle_s_friend_ >> > > >> > > The reason for all of this can be found in the interview with >> Michael >> > > McIntyre: >> > > >> http://www.chinesemedicinetimes.com/section/132/1/the_regulation_of_herbal_medic\ ine_in_the_uk_and_europe__an_interview_with_michael_mcintyre___chair_of_ehpa >> > > >> > > Regards, >> > > >> > > Attilio >> > > www.chinesemedicinetimes.com >> > > >> > > Chinese Medicine , Z'ev >> Rosenberg >> > > <zrosenbe@> wrote: >> > > > >> > > > Does that include indigenous herbal traditions? >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > On Feb 17, 2009, at 11:57 AM, wrote: >> > > > >> > > > > If anything, I think the situation is getting worse as a new >> > > European >> > > > > law has been introduced that reclassified herbs as medicinal >> and >> > > > > therefore seriously restricting their use. Some countries are >> > > exempt, >> > > > > but central European countries like Italy, France and Spain >> will >> > > see a >> > > > > loss of herbal medicine. >> > > > > >> > > > > For more information on the use of herbal medicine in Europe, >> > > you can >> > > > > read these 2 articles: >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > >> http://www.chinesemedicinetimes.com/section/132/1/the_regulation_of_herbal_medic\ ine_in_the_uk_and_europe__an_interview_with_michael_mcintyre___chair_of_ehpa >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > >> http://www.chinesemedicinetimes.com/section/136/1/are_you_a_nettle_s_friend_ >> > > > > >> > > > > Regards, >> > > > > >> > > > > Attilio >> > > > > www.chinesemedicinetimes.com >> > > > > >> > > > > Chinese Medicine , Kim >> > > Blankenship >> > > > > <kuangguiyu@> wrote: >> > > > > > >> > > > > > Hi Hugo and Attilio - >> > > > > > Thanks for your replies. I have seen the itm article on >> TCM in >> > > > > Italy, but >> > > > > > it is over four years old and I think the status may have >> > > changed. >> > > > > I'm >> > > > > > attempting to contact some herb suppliers and >> practitioners and >> > > > > get some >> > > > > > definitive info. I'll be sure and let you know what I find >> out. >> > > > > Thanks >> > > > > > again. >> > > > > > >> > > > > > Kim Blankenship >> > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > On Tue, Feb 17, 2009 at 8:42 AM, Hugo Ramiro <subincor@> >> wrote: >> > > > > > >> > > > > > > I don't know the current state of things, but Attilio is >> > > right, >> > > > > and >> > > > > > > some of the history was written up by Dharmananda. A >> google >> > > search >> > > > > for his >> > > > > > > name and italy and herbs should bring up exactly the >> article >> > > in >> > > > > question. >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > Hugo >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > --Attilio- >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > I don't think you can get herbs in Italy now. >> > > > > > > --- >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > ________________________________ >> > > > > > > Hugo Ramiro >> > > > > > > http://middlemedicine.wordpress.com >> > > > > > > http://www.chinesemedicaltherapies..org >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 20, 2009 Report Share Posted February 20, 2009 Hi Fran, 'The health risks our profession presents to the consumer are really small now, in comparison to foods and drugs that are approved'. I don't know about that. We do use toxic substances, and those are not without risk. In the hands of an experienced herbalist, they might be less dangerous (still some danger though) but where are the regulatory bodies that control herbalists' education and experience? 'I think clarity in diagnosis, is more important than a super clean industrial, pharmacuetical manufacturing environment' I think both are important. The best doctor cannot get good results when the herbs are tainted with chemicals, pesticides, aflatoxines, bugs, larvae, .. I know from tests done in Sinecura that granules in general are clean and safe to use. Microscopic investigation of samples of raw herbs sometimes show unacceptable levels of the above. Methods of storage are very important when dealing with raw herbs, to avoid spoilage. 'I've cooked probably ten thousands of gallons of herbs, without a problem to patient/consumer.' Perhaps you are very good, but I can testify here that some of my patients have reported side-effects of herbs. Mazin Al-Khafaji routinely tests all of his patients for liver enzymes fluctuations, and even after 20 years of practice he still sees sudden increases in these tests, demanding different selection of herbs. I am of course not in favour of big corporations taking control of our market, but perhaps we do need more information and education on the topic of safety, so we can make informed choices. The world (including Belgium) has had its share of food scandals, and until we reach Utopia, imho I believe we need some standards of herbal dispensary. Perhaps some of you will revolt to the idea of more control, but I don't see it as all bad. It can increase our standard of practice, if we play it well. Regards, Tom. Tom Verhaeghe Stationsplein 59 8770 Ingelmunster www.chinese-geneeskunde.be _____ Chinese Medicine Chinese Medicine On Behalf Of mystir vrijdag 20 februari 2009 9:45 Chinese Medicine RE: Re: Herbs in Italy Hi Tom. I'm glad you're an optimist. I know it is, has to be inclusive panels that work through the details. But more control, I don't like. Poor quality, WE decide on that, not just regulatory bodies. Granules will be regarded as pharmaceuticals, and formulas will have to be dispensed by a chemist ('apotheker' in Belgium) in a controlled environment. No no no no no. The health risks our profession presents to the consumer are really small now, in comparison to foods and drugs that are approved. I think clarity in diagnosis, is more important than a super clean industrial, pharmacuetical manufacturing environment. Implications of all this are bigger than just our profession. To me, the environmental standards proposed are weak and favor profit... more.. This is a supergroup, deciding at various geographical locations, who can work, what does work, what the import and export is classified as legal, etc. I don't think such broad issues and the ripples of their stance, can carry as much medical truth as if we, the global practitioners, buyers, sellers and public will offer in feedback. It is too open to manipulation and tokenism. (advisors). Every herbalist has to be taken to task for their own standards of truth in; purity of product, methods of preparation, basic knowledge of their line, and modern advances, etc. Before globalization, there were 5000 varieties of rice available from india, now, 5 varieties claim most the arable land. There will, I hope always be seed-savers and horticultural heritage foundations, but in hard times, they fall away to common need. (Walmart, who sells things people need at prices the can afford), is thriving because they are affordable. Seed banks were raided in famines because people neede to eat now, not in the future. Herbs and suplements are advancing and safe now, they don't need the kind of control this body envisions. It's more corporate than care. This monetary manipulation, the recession, is weeding out old survivors, and a couple of 'advisors' altho helpful as insiders revealing a market, won't make the market diverse. This is a big topic Tom. Pressure cooking is just one way around, I'm not looking for around the law, I've cooked probably ten thousands of gallons of herbs, without a problem to patient/consumer. This is where our group becomes more helpful, we can be the advisors of methods and selection of materials for those who come into. Who would be better qualified. I can see plenty of members here, for example, who aren't shy of speaking their mind. Thanks Tom. Hope I wasn't long winded and close minded. I don't like typing all that much. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 20, 2009 Report Share Posted February 20, 2009 Ok, this is a good conversation, Thanks Brother. 'The health risks our profession presents to the consumer are really small now, in comparison to foods and drugs that are approved'. Hi Tom, how can you say you don't know that? There is more illness and mortality worldwide,in tainted orthodox food and drugs, than in herbal med. And keeping to the codex aspiration, the basket of forgivable suffering it allows is way more than our little niche. So, rationally, we should be advanced as a health care option. " I don't know about that. We do use toxic substances, and those are not without risk. " Ok, true, but we wanna be smart. Not medieval poisoners. Anybody can go out and buy drano and poison themselves or someone else, but those things aren't controlled, can't be. " In the hands of an experienced herbalist, they might be less dangerous, (still some danger though) but where are the regulatory bodies that control herbalists' education and experience? " Those controls are in the educational and lisencing bodies for each country. Also, local law promotes prosecution in cases of malpractice or ignorance. 'I think clarity in diagnosis, is more important than a super clean industrial, pharmacuetical manufacturing environment' " I think both are important. The best doctor cannot get good results when the herbs are tainted with chemicals, pesticides, aflatoxines, bugs, larvae, .. I know from tests done in Sinecura that granules in general are clean and safe to use. Microscopic investigation of samples of raw herbs sometimes show unacceptable levels of the above. Methods of storage are very important when dealing with raw herbs, to avoid spoilage. " Pesticides, chemicals, and genetic modification are areas food, drug and herbal medical systems will have to deal with. I don't trust that only the world trade organizations will be unbiased. Again tho, Tom, just as bad food w parasites appear, even in best and mosty careful resturants, it will apear in live herb clinics from time to time. The insane hygienic phsychotic overobsession with herbal preparations can go too far. Our field, and its record, is really clean. I threw out products because, oh shit, fucking bugs or substandard constituents. Ok, that's the world. Funny how the focus of codex is more to the rare consumption of humans, than real health concerns. They think we're stupid, really. 'I've cooked probably ten thousands of gallons of herbs, without a problem to patient/consumer.' Perhaps you are very good, but I can testify here that some of my patients have reported side-effects of herbs. Mazin Al-Khafaji routinely tests all of his patients for liver enzymes fluctuations, and even after 20 years of practice he still sees sudden increases in these tests, demanding different selection of herbs. Yeah, but acceptable side effects of legal, and here to stay things like motrin are severe too sometimes. Just put it in relative focus to what choice people have in choice of medical purchase power, with over the counter drugs. And INSURANCE COMPENSATION. " I am of course not in favour of big corporations taking control of our market, but perhaps we do need more information and education on the topic of safety, so we can make informed choices. The world (including Belgium) has had its share of food scandals, and until we reach Utopia, imho I believe we need some standards of herbal dispensary. Perhaps some of you will revolt to the idea of more control, but I don't see it as all bad. It can increase our standard of practice, if we play it well. " Heaven, hell, utopia, dystopia, depends what's happening every or any day. Do you think big corporations will give more informaion, education, or safety, or more choices? I don't see anything as all bad, but that's not the way to increase our various standards of practice. It's just rolling over. Public health clinic managers here see their formulary options shrink every year, according to their shrinking budgets and dominant pharmacy house lobby. I'm saying, I want control, not pharma, the rnc, or biotech babies, of my trade. We're not so fucking toxic, could be smarter, but that's what we're trying to be. Don't somebody take a undefensible scientific political highroad and try to spank me. Where were they when our trade came with open arms to offer what we see as useful, and they just shut the door. The system could have saved itself billions a year, just adopting scalp and laser acupuncture protocols for stroke. I'm not new to this Tom. I know most medical workers love elegant solutions. But money still is king. If my speech sounds laboured, I spent this night responding to this, now I can sleep for 2 hrs. I hope this dialog continues. We have to protect choice of care. Sweet dreams buddy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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