Guest guest Posted February 16, 2009 Report Share Posted February 16, 2009 Hi Group - I have a patient who is residing in a small town outside of Venice for a few months and he is in urgent need of Yin Qiao Jie Du Pian and Yu Ping Feng Wan. If anyone on the group knows of someone in the vicinity who may be of assistance, please let me know. Many thanks. Kim Blankenship Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 17, 2009 Report Share Posted February 17, 2009 I don't think you can get herbs in Italy now. I'll be interested to know if you can. Regards, Attilio www.chinesemedicinetimes.com Chinese Medicine , " kuangguiyu " <kuangguiyu wrote: > > Hi Group - > > I have a patient who is residing in a small town outside of Venice for a few months and he is > in urgent need of Yin Qiao Jie Du Pian and Yu Ping Feng Wan. If anyone on the group knows > of someone in the vicinity who may be of assistance, please let me know. > > Many thanks. > > Kim Blankenship > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 17, 2009 Report Share Posted February 17, 2009  I don't know the current state of things, but Attilio is right, and some of the history was written up by Dharmananda. A google search for his name and italy and herbs should bring up exactly the article in question.  Hugo --Attilio- I don't think you can get herbs in Italy now. ---  ________________________________ Hugo Ramiro http://middlemedicine.wordpress.com http://www.chinesemedicaltherapies..org Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 17, 2009 Report Share Posted February 17, 2009 Hi Hugo and Attilio - Thanks for your replies. I have seen the itm article on TCM in Italy, but it is over four years old and I think the status may have changed. I'm attempting to contact some herb suppliers and practitioners and get some definitive info. I'll be sure and let you know what I find out. Thanks again. Kim Blankenship On Tue, Feb 17, 2009 at 8:42 AM, Hugo Ramiro <subincor wrote: > I don't know the current state of things, but Attilio is right, and > some of the history was written up by Dharmananda. A google search for his > name and italy and herbs should bring up exactly the article in question. > > Hugo > > --Attilio- > > I don't think you can get herbs in Italy now. > --- > > ________________________________ > Hugo Ramiro > http://middlemedicine.wordpress.com > http://www.chinesemedicaltherapies..org > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 17, 2009 Report Share Posted February 17, 2009 If anything, I think the situation is getting worse as a new European law has been introduced that reclassified herbs as medicinal and therefore seriously restricting their use. Some countries are exempt, but central European countries like Italy, France and Spain will see a loss of herbal medicine. For more information on the use of herbal medicine in Europe, you can read these 2 articles: http://www.chinesemedicinetimes.com/section/132/1/the_regulation_of_herbal_medic\ ine_in_the_uk_and_europe__an_interview_with_michael_mcintyre___chair_of_ehpa http://www.chinesemedicinetimes.com/section/136/1/are_you_a_nettle_s_friend_ Regards, Attilio www.chinesemedicinetimes.com Chinese Medicine , Kim Blankenship <kuangguiyu wrote: > > Hi Hugo and Attilio - > Thanks for your replies. I have seen the itm article on TCM in Italy, but > it is over four years old and I think the status may have changed. I'm > attempting to contact some herb suppliers and practitioners and get some > definitive info. I'll be sure and let you know what I find out. Thanks > again. > > Kim Blankenship > > > > On Tue, Feb 17, 2009 at 8:42 AM, Hugo Ramiro <subincor wrote: > > > I don't know the current state of things, but Attilio is right, and > > some of the history was written up by Dharmananda. A google search for his > > name and italy and herbs should bring up exactly the article in question. > > > > Hugo > > > > --Attilio- > > > > I don't think you can get herbs in Italy now. > > --- > > > > ________________________________ > > Hugo Ramiro > > http://middlemedicine.wordpress.com > > http://www.chinesemedicaltherapies..org > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 17, 2009 Report Share Posted February 17, 2009 Does that include indigenous herbal traditions? On Feb 17, 2009, at 11:57 AM, wrote: > If anything, I think the situation is getting worse as a new European > law has been introduced that reclassified herbs as medicinal and > therefore seriously restricting their use. Some countries are exempt, > but central European countries like Italy, France and Spain will see a > loss of herbal medicine. > > For more information on the use of herbal medicine in Europe, you can > read these 2 articles: > > http://www.chinesemedicinetimes.com/section/132/1/the_regulation_of_herbal_medic\ ine_in_the_uk_and_europe__an_interview_with_michael_mcintyre___chair_of_ehpa > > http://www.chinesemedicinetimes.com/section/136/1/are_you_a_nettle_s_friend_ > > Regards, > > Attilio > www.chinesemedicinetimes.com > > Chinese Medicine , Kim Blankenship > <kuangguiyu wrote: > > > > Hi Hugo and Attilio - > > Thanks for your replies. I have seen the itm article on TCM in > Italy, but > > it is over four years old and I think the status may have changed. > I'm > > attempting to contact some herb suppliers and practitioners and > get some > > definitive info. I'll be sure and let you know what I find out. > Thanks > > again. > > > > Kim Blankenship > > > > > > > > On Tue, Feb 17, 2009 at 8:42 AM, Hugo Ramiro <subincor wrote: > > > > > I don't know the current state of things, but Attilio is right, > and > > > some of the history was written up by Dharmananda. A google search > for his > > > name and italy and herbs should bring up exactly the article in > question. > > > > > > Hugo > > > > > > --Attilio- > > > > > > I don't think you can get herbs in Italy now. > > > --- > > > > > > ________________________________ > > > Hugo Ramiro > > > http://middlemedicine.wordpress.com > > > http://www.chinesemedicaltherapies..org > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 17, 2009 Report Share Posted February 17, 2009 Most indigenous herbal traditions were stamped out by the Catholic church a long time ago. But yes, that includes all herbs, read Stephen Gascoigne's article Are You a Nettle's Friend, which talks about how even teaching the use of indigenous herbs is now illegal in France: http://www.chinesemedicinetimes.com/section/136/1/are_you_a_nettle_s_friend_ The reason for all of this can be found in the interview with Michael McIntyre: http://www.chinesemedicinetimes.com/section/132/1/the_regulation_of_herbal_medic\ ine_in_the_uk_and_europe__an_interview_with_michael_mcintyre___chair_of_ehpa Regards, Attilio www.chinesemedicinetimes.com Chinese Medicine , <zrosenbe wrote: > > Does that include indigenous herbal traditions? > > > On Feb 17, 2009, at 11:57 AM, wrote: > > > If anything, I think the situation is getting worse as a new European > > law has been introduced that reclassified herbs as medicinal and > > therefore seriously restricting their use. Some countries are exempt, > > but central European countries like Italy, France and Spain will see a > > loss of herbal medicine. > > > > For more information on the use of herbal medicine in Europe, you can > > read these 2 articles: > > > > http://www.chinesemedicinetimes.com/section/132/1/the_regulation_of_herbal_medic\ ine_in_the_uk_and_europe__an_interview_with_michael_mcintyre___chair_of_ehpa > > > > http://www.chinesemedicinetimes.com/section/136/1/are_you_a_nettle_s_friend_ > > > > Regards, > > > > Attilio > > www.chinesemedicinetimes.com > > > > Chinese Medicine , Kim Blankenship > > <kuangguiyu@> wrote: > > > > > > Hi Hugo and Attilio - > > > Thanks for your replies. I have seen the itm article on TCM in > > Italy, but > > > it is over four years old and I think the status may have changed. > > I'm > > > attempting to contact some herb suppliers and practitioners and > > get some > > > definitive info. I'll be sure and let you know what I find out. > > Thanks > > > again. > > > > > > Kim Blankenship > > > > > > > > > > > > On Tue, Feb 17, 2009 at 8:42 AM, Hugo Ramiro <subincor@> wrote: > > > > > > > I don't know the current state of things, but Attilio is right, > > and > > > > some of the history was written up by Dharmananda. A google search > > for his > > > > name and italy and herbs should bring up exactly the article in > > question. > > > > > > > > Hugo > > > > > > > > --Attilio- > > > > > > > > I don't think you can get herbs in Italy now. > > > > --- > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > > > Hugo Ramiro > > > > http://middlemedicine.wordpress.com > > > > http://www.chinesemedicaltherapies..org > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 17, 2009 Report Share Posted February 17, 2009 That is beyond absurd, it is insane. . . herbal medicine has been a major part of health care in Europe for millenia. Does that mean only drugs are left? Then pity the health of the Frenchman or woman. . On Feb 17, 2009, at 12:20 PM, wrote: > Most indigenous herbal traditions were stamped out by the Catholic > church a long time ago. But yes, that includes all herbs, read Stephen > Gascoigne's article Are You a Nettle's Friend, which talks about how > even teaching the use of indigenous herbs is now illegal in France: > http://www.chinesemedicinetimes.com/section/136/1/are_you_a_nettle_s_friend_ > > The reason for all of this can be found in the interview with Michael > McIntyre: > http://www.chinesemedicinetimes.com/section/132/1/the_regulation_of_herbal_medic\ ine_in_the_uk_and_europe__an_interview_with_michael_mcintyre___chair_of_ehpa > > Regards, > > Attilio > www.chinesemedicinetimes.com > > Chinese Medicine , > <zrosenbe wrote: > > > > Does that include indigenous herbal traditions? > > > > > > On Feb 17, 2009, at 11:57 AM, wrote: > > > > > If anything, I think the situation is getting worse as a new > European > > > law has been introduced that reclassified herbs as medicinal and > > > therefore seriously restricting their use. Some countries are > exempt, > > > but central European countries like Italy, France and Spain will > see a > > > loss of herbal medicine. > > > > > > For more information on the use of herbal medicine in Europe, > you can > > > read these 2 articles: > > > > > > > http://www.chinesemedicinetimes.com/section/132/1/the_regulation_of_herbal_medic\ ine_in_the_uk_and_europe__an_interview_with_michael_mcintyre___chair_of_ehpa > > > > > > > http://www.chinesemedicinetimes.com/section/136/1/are_you_a_nettle_s_friend_ > > > > > > Regards, > > > > > > Attilio > > > www.chinesemedicinetimes.com > > > > > > Chinese Medicine , Kim > Blankenship > > > <kuangguiyu@> wrote: > > > > > > > > Hi Hugo and Attilio - > > > > Thanks for your replies. I have seen the itm article on TCM in > > > Italy, but > > > > it is over four years old and I think the status may have > changed. > > > I'm > > > > attempting to contact some herb suppliers and practitioners and > > > get some > > > > definitive info. I'll be sure and let you know what I find out. > > > Thanks > > > > again. > > > > > > > > Kim Blankenship > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Tue, Feb 17, 2009 at 8:42 AM, Hugo Ramiro <subincor@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > I don't know the current state of things, but Attilio is > right, > > > and > > > > > some of the history was written up by Dharmananda. A google > search > > > for his > > > > > name and italy and herbs should bring up exactly the article > in > > > question. > > > > > > > > > > Hugo > > > > > > > > > > --Attilio- > > > > > > > > > > I don't think you can get herbs in Italy now. > > > > > --- > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > > > > Hugo Ramiro > > > > > http://middlemedicine.wordpress.com > > > > > http://www.chinesemedicaltherapies..org > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 17, 2009 Report Share Posted February 17, 2009 To be honest, most of the indigenous herbal tradition is long gone. For example, in the UK, the use of indigenous herbs is based upon their actions using WM theory, whereas Chinese medicine actions, i.e. Yin, Yang, Qi and Blood def/excess/stag, etc remain intact. All the diagnostic texts (if any existed) were lost. Now, what's left is being finished off. This is largely because of a group of Belgium doctors mixing Fang Ji with other toxic WM and killing or seriously damaging a lot of their patients. See the McIntyre interview for further info. It's funny, but now in western countries such as the UK, Ireland and USA, an animal can get better healthcare (when they are treated by a Vet that combines the use of WM and Chinese medicine) than most people living in France, Spain and Italy! Attilio www.chinesemedicinetimes.com Chinese Medicine , <zrosenbe wrote: > > That is beyond absurd, it is insane. . . herbal medicine has been a > major part of health care in Europe for millenia. Does that mean only > drugs are left? Then pity the health of the Frenchman or woman. . > > > On Feb 17, 2009, at 12:20 PM, wrote: > > > Most indigenous herbal traditions were stamped out by the Catholic > > church a long time ago. But yes, that includes all herbs, read Stephen > > Gascoigne's article Are You a Nettle's Friend, which talks about how > > even teaching the use of indigenous herbs is now illegal in France: > > http://www.chinesemedicinetimes.com/section/136/1/are_you_a_nettle_s_friend_ > > > > The reason for all of this can be found in the interview with Michael > > McIntyre: > > http://www.chinesemedicinetimes.com/section/132/1/the_regulation_of_herbal_medic\ ine_in_the_uk_and_europe__an_interview_with_michael_mcintyre___chair_of_ehpa > > > > Regards, > > > > Attilio > > www.chinesemedicinetimes.com > > > > Chinese Medicine , > > <zrosenbe@> wrote: > > > > > > Does that include indigenous herbal traditions? > > > > > > > > > On Feb 17, 2009, at 11:57 AM, wrote: > > > > > > > If anything, I think the situation is getting worse as a new > > European > > > > law has been introduced that reclassified herbs as medicinal and > > > > therefore seriously restricting their use. Some countries are > > exempt, > > > > but central European countries like Italy, France and Spain will > > see a > > > > loss of herbal medicine. > > > > > > > > For more information on the use of herbal medicine in Europe, > > you can > > > > read these 2 articles: > > > > > > > > > > http://www.chinesemedicinetimes.com/section/132/1/the_regulation_of_herbal_medic\ ine_in_the_uk_and_europe__an_interview_with_michael_mcintyre___chair_of_ehpa > > > > > > > > > > http://www.chinesemedicinetimes.com/section/136/1/are_you_a_nettle_s_friend_ > > > > > > > > Regards, > > > > > > > > Attilio > > > > www.chinesemedicinetimes.com > > > > > > > > Chinese Medicine , Kim > > Blankenship > > > > <kuangguiyu@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Hi Hugo and Attilio - > > > > > Thanks for your replies. I have seen the itm article on TCM in > > > > Italy, but > > > > > it is over four years old and I think the status may have > > changed. > > > > I'm > > > > > attempting to contact some herb suppliers and practitioners and > > > > get some > > > > > definitive info. I'll be sure and let you know what I find out. > > > > Thanks > > > > > again. > > > > > > > > > > Kim Blankenship > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Tue, Feb 17, 2009 at 8:42 AM, Hugo Ramiro <subincor@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > I don't know the current state of things, but Attilio is > > right, > > > > and > > > > > > some of the history was written up by Dharmananda. A google > > search > > > > for his > > > > > > name and italy and herbs should bring up exactly the article > > in > > > > question. > > > > > > > > > > > > Hugo > > > > > > > > > > > > --Attilio- > > > > > > > > > > > > I don't think you can get herbs in Italy now. > > > > > > --- > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > > > > > Hugo Ramiro > > > > > > http://middlemedicine.wordpress.com > > > > > > http://www.chinesemedicaltherapies..org > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 17, 2009 Report Share Posted February 17, 2009 I know it sounds impractical, but there are some indigenous traditions in Europe, based on the Greco/Arabic four humor medicine of Galen, Hippocrates and Ibn Sina, that would provide more than enough ideological framework for the practice of herbal medicine. I've found it intact in the works of Moses Maimonides. There is a large extant classical literature in the subject, it just needs to be revived. It survives in the 'terrain' mentality of French physicians, and to some degree in Homeopathy, which is still rather popular throughout Europe. Dr. Yves Requena wrote an excellent book on European Phytotherapy, applying the principles of Chinese medicine. On Feb 17, 2009, at 2:19 PM, wrote: > To be honest, most of the indigenous herbal tradition is long gone. > For example, in the UK, the use of indigenous herbs is based upon > their actions using WM theory, whereas Chinese medicine actions, i.e. > Yin, Yang, Qi and Blood def/excess/stag, etc remain intact. All the > diagnostic texts (if any existed) were lost. > > Now, what's left is being finished off. This is largely because of a > group of Belgium doctors mixing Fang Ji with other toxic WM and > killing or seriously damaging a lot of their patients. See the > McIntyre interview for further info. > > It's funny, but now in western countries such as the UK, Ireland and > USA, an animal can get better healthcare (when they are treated by a > Vet that combines the use of WM and Chinese medicine) than most people > living in France, Spain and Italy! > > Attilio > www.chinesemedicinetimes.com > > Chinese Medicine , > <zrosenbe wrote: > > > > That is beyond absurd, it is insane. . . herbal medicine has been a > > major part of health care in Europe for millenia. Does that mean > only > > drugs are left? Then pity the health of the Frenchman or woman. . > > > > > > On Feb 17, 2009, at 12:20 PM, wrote: > > > > > Most indigenous herbal traditions were stamped out by the Catholic > > > church a long time ago. But yes, that includes all herbs, read > Stephen > > > Gascoigne's article Are You a Nettle's Friend, which talks about > how > > > even teaching the use of indigenous herbs is now illegal in > France: > > > > http://www.chinesemedicinetimes.com/section/136/1/are_you_a_nettle_s_friend_ > > > > > > The reason for all of this can be found in the interview with > Michael > > > McIntyre: > > > > http://www.chinesemedicinetimes.com/section/132/1/the_regulation_of_herbal_medic\ ine_in_the_uk_and_europe__an_interview_with_michael_mcintyre___chair_of_ehpa > > > > > > Regards, > > > > > > Attilio > > > www.chinesemedicinetimes.com > > > > > > Chinese Medicine , Z'ev > Rosenberg > > > <zrosenbe@> wrote: > > > > > > > > Does that include indigenous herbal traditions? > > > > > > > > > > > > On Feb 17, 2009, at 11:57 AM, wrote: > > > > > > > > > If anything, I think the situation is getting worse as a new > > > European > > > > > law has been introduced that reclassified herbs as medicinal > and > > > > > therefore seriously restricting their use. Some countries are > > > exempt, > > > > > but central European countries like Italy, France and Spain > will > > > see a > > > > > loss of herbal medicine. > > > > > > > > > > For more information on the use of herbal medicine in Europe, > > > you can > > > > > read these 2 articles: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > http://www.chinesemedicinetimes.com/section/132/1/the_regulation_of_herbal_medic\ ine_in_the_uk_and_europe__an_interview_with_michael_mcintyre___chair_of_ehpa > > > > > > > > > > > > > > http://www.chinesemedicinetimes.com/section/136/1/are_you_a_nettle_s_friend_ > > > > > > > > > > Regards, > > > > > > > > > > Attilio > > > > > www.chinesemedicinetimes.com > > > > > > > > > > Chinese Medicine , Kim > > > Blankenship > > > > > <kuangguiyu@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi Hugo and Attilio - > > > > > > Thanks for your replies. I have seen the itm article on > TCM in > > > > > Italy, but > > > > > > it is over four years old and I think the status may have > > > changed. > > > > > I'm > > > > > > attempting to contact some herb suppliers and > practitioners and > > > > > get some > > > > > > definitive info. I'll be sure and let you know what I find > out. > > > > > Thanks > > > > > > again. > > > > > > > > > > > > Kim Blankenship > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Tue, Feb 17, 2009 at 8:42 AM, Hugo Ramiro <subincor@> > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > I don't know the current state of things, but Attilio is > > > right, > > > > > and > > > > > > > some of the history was written up by Dharmananda. A > google > > > search > > > > > for his > > > > > > > name and italy and herbs should bring up exactly the > article > > > in > > > > > question. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hugo > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --Attilio- > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I don't think you can get herbs in Italy now. > > > > > > > --- > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > > > > > > Hugo Ramiro > > > > > > > http://middlemedicine.wordpress.com > > > > > > > http://www.chinesemedicaltherapies..org > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 18, 2009 Report Share Posted February 18, 2009 We have some catholic herbal traditions as well. Some nuns and priests were experts in preparing herbal drinks and tinctures. One example is sister Hildegard http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/med/hildegarde.html Many farmers in France still prepare herbal health drinks- I live only 20 kms off the border with France and I wouldn't say there are no herbs to be found in France. Also very popular are the Dr. Vogel herbal preparations and tinctures, like Echinacea. http://www.avogel.com/ They do have distributors in France and Spain. I don't know about Italy specifically, but I know that KPC granules are being sold in Spain and in France. Tom Verhaeghe Stationsplein 59 8770 Ingelmunster www.chinese-geneeskunde.be _____ Chinese Medicine Chinese Medicine On Behalf Of Z'ev Rosenberg dinsdag 17 februari 2009 23:28 Chinese Medicine Re: Re: Herbs in Italy I know it sounds impractical, but there are some indigenous traditions in Europe, based on the Greco/Arabic four humor medicine of Galen, Hippocrates and Ibn Sina, that would provide more than enough ideological framework for the practice of herbal medicine. I've found it intact in the works of Moses Maimonides. There is a large extant classical literature in the subject, it just needs to be revived. It survives in the 'terrain' mentality of French physicians, and to some degree in Homeopathy, which is still rather popular throughout Europe. Dr. Yves Requena wrote an excellent book on European Phytotherapy, applying the principles of Chinese medicine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 18, 2009 Report Share Posted February 18, 2009 In my previous posts, i was speaking from a traditional herbalist point of view. Of course, if you're an MD, then you can practice herbal medicine with some training. I don't know the ins and outs of the training needed, but its probably the same as acupuncture in those central European countries. Anyone else, farmers, priests, etc cannot practice herbal medicine in these central European countries unless they are MDs. Of course, it depends on what is classified as a medicinal herb and what's classified as a food. The reclassification occurred a few years ago and full implementation comes into effect in 2011. If it is a medicinal herb then those non MDs will be fined if caught. The classification of herbs can be found from the EU website. Interestingly, herbs such as Ginseng and Gou Qi Zi are not classified as medicinal, but instead they are classified as foods and therefore can be bought in shops or used in cosmetics. In countries such as the UK, Ireland and other northern European countries, traditional herbalists can still practice. I know that in the UK and Ireland, the term 'herbalist' will be defined in law and therefore safe guards put in place to protect the public. I don't know what's going to happen in other European countries. So herbal medicine will live on in Europe, but in much different forms than before. Attilio www.chinesemedicinetimes.com Chinese Medicine , <zrosenbe wrote: > > I know it sounds impractical, but there are some indigenous traditions > in Europe, based on the Greco/Arabic four humor medicine of Galen, > Hippocrates and Ibn Sina, that would provide more than enough > ideological framework for the practice of herbal medicine. I've found > it intact in the works of Moses Maimonides. There is a large extant > classical literature in the subject, it just needs to be revived. It > survives in the 'terrain' mentality of French physicians, and to some > degree in Homeopathy, which is still rather popular throughout Europe. > > Dr. Yves Requena wrote an excellent book on European Phytotherapy, > applying the principles of Chinese medicine. > > > On Feb 17, 2009, at 2:19 PM, wrote: > > > To be honest, most of the indigenous herbal tradition is long gone. > > For example, in the UK, the use of indigenous herbs is based upon > > their actions using WM theory, whereas Chinese medicine actions, i.e. > > Yin, Yang, Qi and Blood def/excess/stag, etc remain intact. All the > > diagnostic texts (if any existed) were lost. > > > > Now, what's left is being finished off. This is largely because of a > > group of Belgium doctors mixing Fang Ji with other toxic WM and > > killing or seriously damaging a lot of their patients. See the > > McIntyre interview for further info. > > > > It's funny, but now in western countries such as the UK, Ireland and > > USA, an animal can get better healthcare (when they are treated by a > > Vet that combines the use of WM and Chinese medicine) than most people > > living in France, Spain and Italy! > > > > Attilio > > www.chinesemedicinetimes.com > > > > Chinese Medicine , > > <zrosenbe@> wrote: > > > > > > That is beyond absurd, it is insane. . . herbal medicine has been a > > > major part of health care in Europe for millenia. Does that mean > > only > > > drugs are left? Then pity the health of the Frenchman or woman. . > > > > > > > > > On Feb 17, 2009, at 12:20 PM, wrote: > > > > > > > Most indigenous herbal traditions were stamped out by the Catholic > > > > church a long time ago. But yes, that includes all herbs, read > > Stephen > > > > Gascoigne's article Are You a Nettle's Friend, which talks about > > how > > > > even teaching the use of indigenous herbs is now illegal in > > France: > > > > > > http://www.chinesemedicinetimes.com/section/136/1/are_you_a_nettle_s_friend_ > > > > > > > > The reason for all of this can be found in the interview with > > Michael > > > > McIntyre: > > > > > > http://www.chinesemedicinetimes.com/section/132/1/the_regulation_of_herbal_medic\ ine_in_the_uk_and_europe__an_interview_with_michael_mcintyre___chair_of_ehpa > > > > > > > > Regards, > > > > > > > > Attilio > > > > www.chinesemedicinetimes.com > > > > > > > > Chinese Medicine , Z'ev > > Rosenberg > > > > <zrosenbe@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Does that include indigenous herbal traditions? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Feb 17, 2009, at 11:57 AM, wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > If anything, I think the situation is getting worse as a new > > > > European > > > > > > law has been introduced that reclassified herbs as medicinal > > and > > > > > > therefore seriously restricting their use. Some countries are > > > > exempt, > > > > > > but central European countries like Italy, France and Spain > > will > > > > see a > > > > > > loss of herbal medicine. > > > > > > > > > > > > For more information on the use of herbal medicine in Europe, > > > > you can > > > > > > read these 2 articles: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > http://www.chinesemedicinetimes.com/section/132/1/the_regulation_of_herbal_medic\ ine_in_the_uk_and_europe__an_interview_with_michael_mcintyre___chair_of_ehpa > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > http://www.chinesemedicinetimes.com/section/136/1/are_you_a_nettle_s_friend_ > > > > > > > > > > > > Regards, > > > > > > > > > > > > Attilio > > > > > > www.chinesemedicinetimes.com > > > > > > > > > > > > Chinese Medicine , Kim > > > > Blankenship > > > > > > <kuangguiyu@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi Hugo and Attilio - > > > > > > > Thanks for your replies. I have seen the itm article on > > TCM in > > > > > > Italy, but > > > > > > > it is over four years old and I think the status may have > > > > changed. > > > > > > I'm > > > > > > > attempting to contact some herb suppliers and > > practitioners and > > > > > > get some > > > > > > > definitive info. I'll be sure and let you know what I find > > out. > > > > > > Thanks > > > > > > > again. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Kim Blankenship > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Tue, Feb 17, 2009 at 8:42 AM, Hugo Ramiro <subincor@> > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I don't know the current state of things, but Attilio is > > > > right, > > > > > > and > > > > > > > > some of the history was written up by Dharmananda. A > > google > > > > search > > > > > > for his > > > > > > > > name and italy and herbs should bring up exactly the > > article > > > > in > > > > > > question. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hugo > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --Attilio- > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I don't think you can get herbs in Italy now. > > > > > > > > --- > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > > > > > > > Hugo Ramiro > > > > > > > > http://middlemedicine.wordpress.com > > > > > > > > http://www.chinesemedicaltherapies..org > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 18, 2009 Report Share Posted February 18, 2009 Â Hi all: Â Â I recall when a good friend of mine who butterflies herself around the restaurant and bar scene, knows all the owners and so on, took me to this one bar on dundas east (I don't drink), but she was talking to the owner who imports rare wines from europe. The scent from this one wine from a monastery in italy (or spain?) caught my attention and I pushed my friend out of my way and took over the conversation: the gentleman told me that it was used for cases of over-eating, or stale food, maybe some fever and so, on, and the smell! Exactly a high quality Huo Xiang Zheng Qi Shui (well, " Jiu " )!! It was amazing to have that sudden feeling of connection between cultures! Â Â Hugo Hugo Ramiro http://middlemedicine.wordpress.com http://www.chinesemedicaltherapies.org Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 18, 2009 Report Share Posted February 18, 2009 Dear Attilio, Please explain more about " indigenous " plant use and its stamping-out by the Catholic church--I've never heard about it. I practiced and studied herbal medicine in Naples for several years, and here's what I know: Some lay herbal knowledge is not uncommon in Italy, and almost everyone knows about plants that " calm the nerves " like chamomile or valerian (these were also very popular remedies for " hysteria " in the 19th century). There are several old traditional herb shops (not just beauty shops disguised as herb shops, of which there are plenty) in Naples ( " Erboristeria Officinale " on via Nilo, for example) where you can get all the standard European plants in bulk and in other forms, at least as of my last visit in December 2008. There are plenty of " traditional " herbalists, too, who practice with the title " Erborista Diplomato. " Many, many herbal texts are still in print, including a wonderful reprinted 1941 volume that I used, " Le Piante Che Ridanno Salute " ( " Plants That Give Back Health " ) published by Edizioni Planta Medica for the line Tradizione Erboristica Italiana, which has rich reference material going back hundreds of years. As elsewhere, there is a historical distinction in Italy between popular herbal knowledge and what can be described as a more formal medical tradition, represented better by the printing press. Of course Middle Age and Classical sources that predate Italian writing are also available, and some of those traditions have also survived. Of course, there are also tons of pharmacies with herbal products that don't require prescription, and if you include homeopathy as a traditional herbal tradition, there are many very old pharmacies that have been in continuous business and still produce their own preparations in beautiful bottles. There are numerous Chinese herb shops in Italy (I used to get Chinese herbs in bulk and pills through " Erboristeria Shen Nong " or " Erboristeria Medica Cinese Ling-Lan " in Naples). Chinese herbs are distributed to the EU through Amsterdam, and cities with higher Chinese immigrant populations have more resources. I'd have to dig around to see if I can find the EU company name, but I remember that Lanzhou Foci produces the most easily found product. Standards are higher than the Min Shan brand, probably about on par with Plum Flower. Searching " erboristeria venezia " I found http://www.prontoimprese.it/veneto/venezia/venezia/erboristeria.html, but I don't know if this includes Chinese herb shops. It will be interesting to see how the law affects business and practice over the next few years, but I doubt it will look like the draconian nightmare it sounded like a couple of years ago, at least in Italy. Or at least let's hope not. Cordialmente, Jonah Chinese Medicine , " Attilio DAlberto " <attiliodalberto wrote: > > In my previous posts, i was speaking from a traditional herbalist > point of view. Of course, if you're an MD, then you can practice > herbal medicine with some training. I don't know the ins and outs of > the training needed, but its probably the same as acupuncture in those > central European countries. > > Anyone else, farmers, priests, etc cannot practice herbal medicine in > these central European countries unless they are MDs. Of course, it > depends on what is classified as a medicinal herb and what's > classified as a food. The reclassification occurred a few years ago > and full implementation comes into effect in 2011. If it is a > medicinal herb then those non MDs will be fined if caught. The > classification of herbs can be found from the EU website. > Interestingly, herbs such as Ginseng and Gou Qi Zi are not classified > as medicinal, but instead they are classified as foods and therefore > can be bought in shops or used in cosmetics. > > In countries such as the UK, Ireland and other northern European > countries, traditional herbalists can still practice. I know that in > the UK and Ireland, the term 'herbalist' will be defined in law and > therefore safe guards put in place to protect the public. I don't know > what's going to happen in other European countries. > > So herbal medicine will live on in Europe, but in much different forms > than before. > > Attilio > www.chinesemedicinetimes.com > > Chinese Medicine , > <zrosenbe@> wrote: > > > > I know it sounds impractical, but there are some indigenous traditions > > in Europe, based on the Greco/Arabic four humor medicine of Galen, > > Hippocrates and Ibn Sina, that would provide more than enough > > ideological framework for the practice of herbal medicine. I've found > > it intact in the works of Moses Maimonides. There is a large extant > > classical literature in the subject, it just needs to be revived. It > > survives in the 'terrain' mentality of French physicians, and to some > > degree in Homeopathy, which is still rather popular throughout Europe. > > > > Dr. Yves Requena wrote an excellent book on European Phytotherapy, > > applying the principles of Chinese medicine. > > > > > > On Feb 17, 2009, at 2:19 PM, wrote: > > > > > To be honest, most of the indigenous herbal tradition is long gone. > > > For example, in the UK, the use of indigenous herbs is based upon > > > their actions using WM theory, whereas Chinese medicine actions, i.e. > > > Yin, Yang, Qi and Blood def/excess/stag, etc remain intact. All the > > > diagnostic texts (if any existed) were lost. > > > > > > Now, what's left is being finished off. This is largely because of a > > > group of Belgium doctors mixing Fang Ji with other toxic WM and > > > killing or seriously damaging a lot of their patients. See the > > > McIntyre interview for further info. > > > > > > It's funny, but now in western countries such as the UK, Ireland and > > > USA, an animal can get better healthcare (when they are treated by a > > > Vet that combines the use of WM and Chinese medicine) than most people > > > living in France, Spain and Italy! > > > > > > Attilio > > > www.chinesemedicinetimes.com > > > > > > Chinese Medicine , > > > <zrosenbe@> wrote: > > > > > > > > That is beyond absurd, it is insane. . . herbal medicine has been a > > > > major part of health care in Europe for millenia. Does that mean > > > only > > > > drugs are left? Then pity the health of the Frenchman or woman. . > > > > > > > > > > > > On Feb 17, 2009, at 12:20 PM, wrote: > > > > > > > > > Most indigenous herbal traditions were stamped out by the Catholic > > > > > church a long time ago. But yes, that includes all herbs, read > > > Stephen > > > > > Gascoigne's article Are You a Nettle's Friend, which talks about > > > how > > > > > even teaching the use of indigenous herbs is now illegal in > > > France: > > > > > > > > > http://www.chinesemedicinetimes.com/section/136/1/are_you_a_nettle_s_friend_ > > > > > > > > > > The reason for all of this can be found in the interview with > > > Michael > > > > > McIntyre: > > > > > > > > > http://www.chinesemedicinetimes.com/section/132/1/the_regulation_of_herbal_medic\ ine_in_the_uk_and_europe__an_interview_with_michael_mcintyre___chair_of_ehpa > > > > > > > > > > Regards, > > > > > > > > > > Attilio > > > > > www.chinesemedicinetimes.com > > > > > > > > > > Chinese Medicine , Z'ev > > > Rosenberg > > > > > <zrosenbe@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > Does that include indigenous herbal traditions? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Feb 17, 2009, at 11:57 AM, wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > If anything, I think the situation is getting worse as a new > > > > > European > > > > > > > law has been introduced that reclassified herbs as medicinal > > > and > > > > > > > therefore seriously restricting their use. Some countries are > > > > > exempt, > > > > > > > but central European countries like Italy, France and Spain > > > will > > > > > see a > > > > > > > loss of herbal medicine. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > For more information on the use of herbal medicine in Europe, > > > > > you can > > > > > > > read these 2 articles: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > http://www.chinesemedicinetimes.com/section/132/1/the_regulation_of_herbal_medic\ ine_in_the_uk_and_europe__an_interview_with_michael_mcintyre___chair_of_ehpa > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > http://www.chinesemedicinetimes.com/section/136/1/are_you_a_nettle_s_friend_ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Regards, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Attilio > > > > > > > www.chinesemedicinetimes.com > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Chinese Medicine , Kim > > > > > Blankenship > > > > > > > <kuangguiyu@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi Hugo and Attilio - > > > > > > > > Thanks for your replies. I have seen the itm article on > > > TCM in > > > > > > > Italy, but > > > > > > > > it is over four years old and I think the status may have > > > > > changed. > > > > > > > I'm > > > > > > > > attempting to contact some herb suppliers and > > > practitioners and > > > > > > > get some > > > > > > > > definitive info. I'll be sure and let you know what I find > > > out. > > > > > > > Thanks > > > > > > > > again. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Kim Blankenship > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Tue, Feb 17, 2009 at 8:42 AM, Hugo Ramiro <subincor@> > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I don't know the current state of things, but Attilio is > > > > > right, > > > > > > > and > > > > > > > > > some of the history was written up by Dharmananda. A > > > google > > > > > search > > > > > > > for his > > > > > > > > > name and italy and herbs should bring up exactly the > > > article > > > > > in > > > > > > > question. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hugo > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --Attilio- > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I don't think you can get herbs in Italy now. > > > > > > > > > --- > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > > > > > > > > Hugo Ramiro > > > > > > > > > http://middlemedicine.wordpress.com > > > > > > > > > http://www.chinesemedicaltherapies..org > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 18, 2009 Report Share Posted February 18, 2009 Here's a simple search engine for herb shops in Italy: http://www.erboristerie.it/ Chinese Medicine , " Attilio DAlberto " <attiliodalberto wrote: > > In my previous posts, i was speaking from a traditional herbalist > point of view. Of course, if you're an MD, then you can practice > herbal medicine with some training. I don't know the ins and outs of > the training needed, but its probably the same as acupuncture in those > central European countries. > > Anyone else, farmers, priests, etc cannot practice herbal medicine in > these central European countries unless they are MDs. Of course, it > depends on what is classified as a medicinal herb and what's > classified as a food. The reclassification occurred a few years ago > and full implementation comes into effect in 2011. If it is a > medicinal herb then those non MDs will be fined if caught. The > classification of herbs can be found from the EU website. > Interestingly, herbs such as Ginseng and Gou Qi Zi are not classified > as medicinal, but instead they are classified as foods and therefore > can be bought in shops or used in cosmetics. > > In countries such as the UK, Ireland and other northern European > countries, traditional herbalists can still practice. I know that in > the UK and Ireland, the term 'herbalist' will be defined in law and > therefore safe guards put in place to protect the public. I don't know > what's going to happen in other European countries. > > So herbal medicine will live on in Europe, but in much different forms > than before. > > Attilio > www.chinesemedicinetimes.com > > Chinese Medicine , > <zrosenbe@> wrote: > > > > I know it sounds impractical, but there are some indigenous traditions > > in Europe, based on the Greco/Arabic four humor medicine of Galen, > > Hippocrates and Ibn Sina, that would provide more than enough > > ideological framework for the practice of herbal medicine. I've found > > it intact in the works of Moses Maimonides. There is a large extant > > classical literature in the subject, it just needs to be revived. It > > survives in the 'terrain' mentality of French physicians, and to some > > degree in Homeopathy, which is still rather popular throughout Europe. > > > > Dr. Yves Requena wrote an excellent book on European Phytotherapy, > > applying the principles of Chinese medicine. > > > > > > On Feb 17, 2009, at 2:19 PM, wrote: > > > > > To be honest, most of the indigenous herbal tradition is long gone. > > > For example, in the UK, the use of indigenous herbs is based upon > > > their actions using WM theory, whereas Chinese medicine actions, i.e. > > > Yin, Yang, Qi and Blood def/excess/stag, etc remain intact. All the > > > diagnostic texts (if any existed) were lost. > > > > > > Now, what's left is being finished off. This is largely because of a > > > group of Belgium doctors mixing Fang Ji with other toxic WM and > > > killing or seriously damaging a lot of their patients. See the > > > McIntyre interview for further info. > > > > > > It's funny, but now in western countries such as the UK, Ireland and > > > USA, an animal can get better healthcare (when they are treated by a > > > Vet that combines the use of WM and Chinese medicine) than most people > > > living in France, Spain and Italy! > > > > > > Attilio > > > www.chinesemedicinetimes.com > > > > > > Chinese Medicine , > > > <zrosenbe@> wrote: > > > > > > > > That is beyond absurd, it is insane. . . herbal medicine has been a > > > > major part of health care in Europe for millenia. Does that mean > > > only > > > > drugs are left? Then pity the health of the Frenchman or woman. . > > > > > > > > > > > > On Feb 17, 2009, at 12:20 PM, wrote: > > > > > > > > > Most indigenous herbal traditions were stamped out by the Catholic > > > > > church a long time ago. But yes, that includes all herbs, read > > > Stephen > > > > > Gascoigne's article Are You a Nettle's Friend, which talks about > > > how > > > > > even teaching the use of indigenous herbs is now illegal in > > > France: > > > > > > > > > http://www.chinesemedicinetimes.com/section/136/1/are_you_a_nettle_s_friend_ > > > > > > > > > > The reason for all of this can be found in the interview with > > > Michael > > > > > McIntyre: > > > > > > > > > http://www.chinesemedicinetimes.com/section/132/1/the_regulation_of_herbal_medic\ ine_in_the_uk_and_europe__an_interview_with_michael_mcintyre___chair_of_ehpa > > > > > > > > > > Regards, > > > > > > > > > > Attilio > > > > > www.chinesemedicinetimes.com > > > > > > > > > > Chinese Medicine , Z'ev > > > Rosenberg > > > > > <zrosenbe@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > Does that include indigenous herbal traditions? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Feb 17, 2009, at 11:57 AM, wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > If anything, I think the situation is getting worse as a new > > > > > European > > > > > > > law has been introduced that reclassified herbs as medicinal > > > and > > > > > > > therefore seriously restricting their use. Some countries are > > > > > exempt, > > > > > > > but central European countries like Italy, France and Spain > > > will > > > > > see a > > > > > > > loss of herbal medicine. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > For more information on the use of herbal medicine in Europe, > > > > > you can > > > > > > > read these 2 articles: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > http://www.chinesemedicinetimes.com/section/132/1/the_regulation_of_herbal_medic\ ine_in_the_uk_and_europe__an_interview_with_michael_mcintyre___chair_of_ehpa > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > http://www.chinesemedicinetimes.com/section/136/1/are_you_a_nettle_s_friend_ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Regards, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Attilio > > > > > > > www.chinesemedicinetimes.com > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Chinese Medicine , Kim > > > > > Blankenship > > > > > > > <kuangguiyu@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi Hugo and Attilio - > > > > > > > > Thanks for your replies. I have seen the itm article on > > > TCM in > > > > > > > Italy, but > > > > > > > > it is over four years old and I think the status may have > > > > > changed. > > > > > > > I'm > > > > > > > > attempting to contact some herb suppliers and > > > practitioners and > > > > > > > get some > > > > > > > > definitive info. I'll be sure and let you know what I find > > > out. > > > > > > > Thanks > > > > > > > > again. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Kim Blankenship > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Tue, Feb 17, 2009 at 8:42 AM, Hugo Ramiro <subincor@> > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I don't know the current state of things, but Attilio is > > > > > right, > > > > > > > and > > > > > > > > > some of the history was written up by Dharmananda. A > > > google > > > > > search > > > > > > > for his > > > > > > > > > name and italy and herbs should bring up exactly the > > > article > > > > > in > > > > > > > question. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hugo > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --Attilio- > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I don't think you can get herbs in Italy now. > > > > > > > > > --- > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > > > > > > > > Hugo Ramiro > > > > > > > > > http://middlemedicine.wordpress.com > > > > > > > > > http://www.chinesemedicaltherapies..org > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 18, 2009 Report Share Posted February 18, 2009  Hi Jonah:  --Jonah- Lanzhou Foci produces the most easily found product. Standards are higher than the Min Shan brand, probably about on par with Plum Flower. ---   I'm a little confused; are you saying that LanZhou FoCi products are on par with Plum Flower? Can you provide your info for this? I would find it useful.   Thanks!   Hugo  Hugo Ramiro http://middlemedicine.wordpress.com http://www.chinesemedicaltherapies.org --- On Wed, 18/2/09, hershowitz <jonah wrote: hershowitz <jonah Re: Herbs in Italy Chinese Medicine Wednesday, 18 February, 2009, 4:49 PM Dear Attilio, Please explain more about " indigenous " plant use and its stamping-out by the Catholic church--I've never heard about it. I practiced and studied herbal medicine in Naples for several years, and here's what I know: Some lay herbal knowledge is not uncommon in Italy, and almost everyone knows about plants that " calm the nerves " like chamomile or valerian (these were also very popular remedies for " hysteria " in the 19th century). There are several old traditional herb shops (not just beauty shops disguised as herb shops, of which there are plenty) in Naples ( " Erboristeria Officinale " on via Nilo, for example) where you can get all the standard European plants in bulk and in other forms, at least as of my last visit in December 2008. There are plenty of " traditional " herbalists, too, who practice with the title " Erborista Diplomato. " Many, many herbal texts are still in print, including a wonderful reprinted 1941 volume that I used, " Le Piante Che Ridanno Salute " ( " Plants That Give Back Health " ) published by Edizioni Planta Medica for the line Tradizione Erboristica Italiana, which has rich reference material going back hundreds of years. As elsewhere, there is a historical distinction in Italy between popular herbal knowledge and what can be described as a more formal medical tradition, represented better by the printing press. Of course Middle Age and Classical sources that predate Italian writing are also available, and some of those traditions have also survived. Of course, there are also tons of pharmacies with herbal products that don't require prescription, and if you include homeopathy as a traditional herbal tradition, there are many very old pharmacies that have been in continuous business and still produce their own preparations in beautiful bottles. There are numerous Chinese herb shops in Italy (I used to get Chinese herbs in bulk and pills through " Erboristeria Shen Nong " or " Erboristeria Medica Cinese Ling-Lan " in Naples). Chinese herbs are distributed to the EU through Amsterdam, and cities with higher Chinese immigrant populations have more resources. I'd have to dig around to see if I can find the EU company name, but I remember that Lanzhou Foci produces the most easily found product. Standards are higher than the Min Shan brand, probably about on par with Plum Flower. Searching " erboristeria venezia " I found http://www.prontoim prese.it/ veneto/venezia/ venezia/erborist eria.html, but I don't know if this includes Chinese herb shops. It will be interesting to see how the law affects business and practice over the next few years, but I doubt it will look like the draconian nightmare it sounded like a couple of years ago, at least in Italy. Or at least let's hope not. Cordialmente, Jonah Traditional_ Chinese_Medicine , " Attilio DAlberto " <attiliodalberto@ ...> wrote: > > In my previous posts, i was speaking from a traditional herbalist > point of view. Of course, if you're an MD, then you can practice > herbal medicine with some training. I don't know the ins and outs of > the training needed, but its probably the same as acupuncture in those > central European countries. > > Anyone else, farmers, priests, etc cannot practice herbal medicine in > these central European countries unless they are MDs. Of course, it > depends on what is classified as a medicinal herb and what's > classified as a food. The reclassification occurred a few years ago > and full implementation comes into effect in 2011. If it is a > medicinal herb then those non MDs will be fined if caught. The > classification of herbs can be found from the EU website. > Interestingly, herbs such as Ginseng and Gou Qi Zi are not classified > as medicinal, but instead they are classified as foods and therefore > can be bought in shops or used in cosmetics. > > In countries such as the UK, Ireland and other northern European > countries, traditional herbalists can still practice. I know that in > the UK and Ireland, the term 'herbalist' will be defined in law and > therefore safe guards put in place to protect the public. I don't know > what's going to happen in other European countries. > > So herbal medicine will live on in Europe, but in much different forms > than before. > > Attilio > www.chinesemedicine times.com > > Traditional_ Chinese_Medicine , > <zrosenbe@> wrote: > > > > I know it sounds impractical, but there are some indigenous traditions > > in Europe, based on the Greco/Arabic four humor medicine of Galen, > > Hippocrates and Ibn Sina, that would provide more than enough > > ideological framework for the practice of herbal medicine. I've found > > it intact in the works of Moses Maimonides. There is a large extant > > classical literature in the subject, it just needs to be revived. It > > survives in the 'terrain' mentality of French physicians, and to some > > degree in Homeopathy, which is still rather popular throughout Europe. > > > > Dr. Yves Requena wrote an excellent book on European Phytotherapy, > > applying the principles of Chinese medicine. > > > > > > On Feb 17, 2009, at 2:19 PM, wrote: > > > > > To be honest, most of the indigenous herbal tradition is long gone. > > > For example, in the UK, the use of indigenous herbs is based upon > > > their actions using WM theory, whereas Chinese medicine actions, i.e. > > > Yin, Yang, Qi and Blood def/excess/stag, etc remain intact. All the > > > diagnostic texts (if any existed) were lost. > > > > > > Now, what's left is being finished off. This is largely because of a > > > group of Belgium doctors mixing Fang Ji with other toxic WM and > > > killing or seriously damaging a lot of their patients. See the > > > McIntyre interview for further info. > > > > > > It's funny, but now in western countries such as the UK, Ireland and > > > USA, an animal can get better healthcare (when they are treated by a > > > Vet that combines the use of WM and Chinese medicine) than most people > > > living in France, Spain and Italy! > > > > > > Attilio > > > www.chinesemedicine times.com > > > > > > Traditional_ Chinese_Medicine , > > > <zrosenbe@> wrote: > > > > > > > > That is beyond absurd, it is insane. . . herbal medicine has been a > > > > major part of health care in Europe for millenia. Does that mean > > > only > > > > drugs are left? Then pity the health of the Frenchman or woman. . > > > > > > > > > > > > On Feb 17, 2009, at 12:20 PM, wrote: > > > > > > > > > Most indigenous herbal traditions were stamped out by the Catholic > > > > > church a long time ago. But yes, that includes all herbs, read > > > Stephen > > > > > Gascoigne's article Are You a Nettle's Friend, which talks about > > > how > > > > > even teaching the use of indigenous herbs is now illegal in > > > France: > > > > > > > > > http://www.chinesem edicinetimes. com/section/ 136/1/are_ you_a_nettle_ s_friend_ > > > > > > > > > > The reason for all of this can be found in the interview with > > > Michael > > > > > McIntyre: > > > > > > > > > http://www.chinesem edicinetimes. com/section/ 132/1/the_ regulation_ of_herbal_ medicine_ in_the_uk_ and_europe_ _an_interview_ with_michael_ mcintyre_ __chair_of_ ehpa > > > > > > > > > > Regards, > > > > > > > > > > Attilio > > > > > www.chinesemedicine times.com > > > > > > > > > > Traditional_ Chinese_Medicine , Z'ev > > > Rosenberg > > > > > <zrosenbe@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > Does that include indigenous herbal traditions? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Feb 17, 2009, at 11:57 AM, wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > If anything, I think the situation is getting worse as a new > > > > > European > > > > > > > law has been introduced that reclassified herbs as medicinal > > > and > > > > > > > therefore seriously restricting their use. Some countries are > > > > > exempt, > > > > > > > but central European countries like Italy, France and Spain > > > will > > > > > see a > > > > > > > loss of herbal medicine. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > For more information on the use of herbal medicine in Europe, > > > > > you can > > > > > > > read these 2 articles: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > http://www.chinesem edicinetimes. com/section/ 132/1/the_ regulation_ of_herbal_ medicine_ in_the_uk_ and_europe_ _an_interview_ with_michael_ mcintyre_ __chair_of_ ehpa > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > http://www.chinesem edicinetimes. com/section/ 136/1/are_ you_a_nettle_ s_friend_ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Regards, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Attilio > > > > > > > www.chinesemedicine times.com > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Traditional_ Chinese_Medicine , Kim > > > > > Blankenship > > > > > > > <kuangguiyu@ > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi Hugo and Attilio - > > > > > > > > Thanks for your replies. I have seen the itm article on > > > TCM in > > > > > > > Italy, but > > > > > > > > it is over four years old and I think the status may have > > > > > changed. > > > > > > > I'm > > > > > > > > attempting to contact some herb suppliers and > > > practitioners and > > > > > > > get some > > > > > > > > definitive info. I'll be sure and let you know what I find > > > out. > > > > > > > Thanks > > > > > > > > again. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Kim Blankenship > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Tue, Feb 17, 2009 at 8:42 AM, Hugo Ramiro <subincor@> > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I don't know the current state of things, but Attilio is > > > > > right, > > > > > > > and > > > > > > > > > some of the history was written up by Dharmananda. A > > > google > > > > > search > > > > > > > for his > > > > > > > > > name and italy and herbs should bring up exactly the > > > article > > > > > in > > > > > > > question. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hugo > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --Attilio- > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I don't think you can get herbs in Italy now. > > > > > > > > > --- > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ____________ _________ _________ __ > > > > > > > > > Hugo Ramiro > > > > > > > > > http://middlemedici ne.wordpress. com > > > > > > > > > http://www.chinesem edicaltherapies. .org > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 18, 2009 Report Share Posted February 18, 2009 Hi Hugo, First, I should disclaim any expertise in these matters. I compared the products only very casually and empirically, based largely on the apparent manufacturing standards, including packaging and labeling, not on any real specifications. That said, my understanding is that Lanzhou Foci produce both Min Shan and Plum Flower products, and that since 2008, Plum Flower has been processed in a separate Mayway Hebei facility. I'm sure others here can shed better light. The latest Mayway catalog does provide this quotation as a clue, though: " 'When we manufacture Plum Flower products, we have to begin with extraordinarily clean herbs in order to pass their very stingent heavy metal standards.' -Lin Hui Fang, Lanzhou Foci Pharmaceutical Co. Export Manager. " (I can almost hear him sighing.) If I find an old label from Italy, I'll let you know. Best, Jonah Chinese Medicine , Hugo Ramiro <subincor wrote: > > Â Hi Jonah: > Â > --Jonah- > Lanzhou Foci produces the most easily found product. Standards are > higher than the Min Shan brand, probably about on par with Plum Flower. > --- > Â > Â I'm a little confused; are you saying that LanZhou FoCi products are on par with Plum Flower? Can you provide your info for this? I would find it useful. > Â > Â Thanks! > Â > Â Hugo > > Â > > > > Hugo Ramiro > http://middlemedicine.wordpress.com > http://www.chinesemedicaltherapies.org > > > --- On Wed, 18/2/09, hershowitz <jonah wrote: > > hershowitz <jonah > Re: Herbs in Italy > Chinese Medicine > Wednesday, 18 February, 2009, 4:49 PM Dear Attilio, > > Please explain more about " indigenous " plant use and its stamping-out > by the Catholic church--I've never heard about it. > > I practiced and studied herbal medicine in Naples for several years, > and here's what I know: Some lay herbal knowledge is not uncommon in > Italy, and almost everyone knows about plants that " calm the nerves " > like chamomile or valerian (these were also very popular remedies for > " hysteria " in the 19th century). There are several old traditional > herb shops (not just beauty shops disguised as herb shops, of which > there are plenty) in Naples ( " Erboristeria Officinale " on via Nilo, > for example) where you can get all the standard European plants in > bulk and in other forms, at least as of my last visit in December > 2008. There are plenty of " traditional " herbalists, too, who practice > with the title " Erborista Diplomato. " Many, many herbal texts are > still in print, including a wonderful reprinted 1941 volume that I > used, " Le Piante Che Ridanno Salute " ( " Plants That Give Back Health " ) > published by Edizioni Planta Medica for the line Tradizione > Erboristica Italiana, which has rich reference material going back > hundreds of years. As elsewhere, there is a historical distinction in > Italy between popular herbal knowledge and what can be described as a > more formal medical tradition, represented better by the printing > press. Of course Middle Age and Classical sources that predate Italian > writing are also available, and some of those traditions have also > survived. > > Of course, there are also tons of pharmacies with herbal products that > don't require prescription, and if you include homeopathy as a > traditional herbal tradition, there are many very old pharmacies that > have been in continuous business and still produce their own > preparations in beautiful bottles. > > There are numerous Chinese herb shops in Italy (I used to get Chinese > herbs in bulk and pills through " Erboristeria Shen Nong " or > " Erboristeria Medica Cinese Ling-Lan " in Naples). Chinese herbs are > distributed to the EU through Amsterdam, and cities with higher > Chinese immigrant populations have more resources. I'd have to dig > around to see if I can find the EU company name, but I remember that > Lanzhou Foci produces the most easily found product. Standards are > higher than the Min Shan brand, probably about on par with Plum Flower. > > Searching " erboristeria venezia " I found > http://www.prontoim prese.it/ veneto/venezia/ venezia/erborist eria.html, > but I don't know if this includes Chinese herb shops. > > It will be interesting to see how the law affects business and > practice over the next few years, but I doubt it will look like the > draconian nightmare it sounded like a couple of years ago, at least in > Italy. Or at least let's hope not. > > Cordialmente, > > Jonah > > Traditional_ Chinese_Medicine , " Attilio > DAlberto " <attiliodalberto@ ...> wrote: > > > > In my previous posts, i was speaking from a traditional herbalist > > point of view. Of course, if you're an MD, then you can practice > > herbal medicine with some training. I don't know the ins and outs of > > the training needed, but its probably the same as acupuncture in those > > central European countries. > > > > Anyone else, farmers, priests, etc cannot practice herbal medicine in > > these central European countries unless they are MDs. Of course, it > > depends on what is classified as a medicinal herb and what's > > classified as a food. The reclassification occurred a few years ago > > and full implementation comes into effect in 2011. If it is a > > medicinal herb then those non MDs will be fined if caught. The > > classification of herbs can be found from the EU website. > > Interestingly, herbs such as Ginseng and Gou Qi Zi are not classified > > as medicinal, but instead they are classified as foods and therefore > > can be bought in shops or used in cosmetics. > > > > In countries such as the UK, Ireland and other northern European > > countries, traditional herbalists can still practice. I know that in > > the UK and Ireland, the term 'herbalist' will be defined in law and > > therefore safe guards put in place to protect the public. I don't know > > what's going to happen in other European countries. > > > > So herbal medicine will live on in Europe, but in much different forms > > than before. > > > > Attilio > > www.chinesemedicine times.com > > > > Traditional_ Chinese_Medicine , > > <zrosenbe@> wrote: > > > > > > I know it sounds impractical, but there are some indigenous > traditions > > > in Europe, based on the Greco/Arabic four humor medicine of Galen, > > > Hippocrates and Ibn Sina, that would provide more than enough > > > ideological framework for the practice of herbal medicine. I've > found > > > it intact in the works of Moses Maimonides. There is a large extant > > > classical literature in the subject, it just needs to be revived. > It > > > survives in the 'terrain' mentality of French physicians, and to > some > > > degree in Homeopathy, which is still rather popular throughout Europe. > > > > > > Dr. Yves Requena wrote an excellent book on European Phytotherapy, > > > applying the principles of Chinese medicine. > > > > > > > > > On Feb 17, 2009, at 2:19 PM, wrote: > > > > > > > To be honest, most of the indigenous herbal tradition is long gone. > > > > For example, in the UK, the use of indigenous herbs is based upon > > > > their actions using WM theory, whereas Chinese medicine actions, > i.e. > > > > Yin, Yang, Qi and Blood def/excess/stag, etc remain intact. All the > > > > diagnostic texts (if any existed) were lost. > > > > > > > > Now, what's left is being finished off. This is largely because of a > > > > group of Belgium doctors mixing Fang Ji with other toxic WM and > > > > killing or seriously damaging a lot of their patients. See the > > > > McIntyre interview for further info. > > > > > > > > It's funny, but now in western countries such as the UK, Ireland and > > > > USA, an animal can get better healthcare (when they are treated by a > > > > Vet that combines the use of WM and Chinese medicine) than most > people > > > > living in France, Spain and Italy! > > > > > > > > Attilio > > > > www.chinesemedicine times.com > > > > > > > > Traditional_ Chinese_Medicine , Z'ev Rosenberg > > > > <zrosenbe@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > That is beyond absurd, it is insane. . . herbal medicine has > been a > > > > > major part of health care in Europe for millenia. Does that mean > > > > only > > > > > drugs are left? Then pity the health of the Frenchman or woman. . > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Feb 17, 2009, at 12:20 PM, wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > Most indigenous herbal traditions were stamped out by the > Catholic > > > > > > church a long time ago. But yes, that includes all herbs, read > > > > Stephen > > > > > > Gascoigne's article Are You a Nettle's Friend, which talks > about > > > > how > > > > > > even teaching the use of indigenous herbs is now illegal in > > > > France: > > > > > > > > > > > > > http://www.chinesem edicinetimes. com/section/ 136/1/are_ you_a_nettle_ s_friend_ > > > > > > > > > > > > The reason for all of this can be found in the interview with > > > > Michael > > > > > > McIntyre: > > > > > > > > > > > > > http://www.chinesem edicinetimes. com/section/ 132/1/the_ regulation_ of_herbal_ medicine_ in_the_uk_ and_europe_ _an_interview_ with_michael_ mcintyre_ __chair_of_ ehpa > > > > > > > > > > > > Regards, > > > > > > > > > > > > Attilio > > > > > > www.chinesemedicine times.com > > > > > > > > > > > > Traditional_ Chinese_Medicine , Z'ev > > > > Rosenberg > > > > > > <zrosenbe@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Does that include indigenous herbal traditions? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Feb 17, 2009, at 11:57 AM, wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If anything, I think the situation is getting worse as a new > > > > > > European > > > > > > > > law has been introduced that reclassified herbs as > medicinal > > > > and > > > > > > > > therefore seriously restricting their use. Some > countries are > > > > > > exempt, > > > > > > > > but central European countries like Italy, France and > Spain > > > > will > > > > > > see a > > > > > > > > loss of herbal medicine. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > For more information on the use of herbal medicine in > Europe, > > > > > > you can > > > > > > > > read these 2 articles: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > http://www.chinesem edicinetimes. com/section/ 132/1/the_ regulation_ of_herbal_ medicine_ in_the_uk_ and_europe_ _an_interview_ with_michael_ mcintyre_ __chair_of_ ehpa > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > http://www.chinesem edicinetimes. com/section/ 136/1/are_ you_a_nettle_ s_friend_ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Regards, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Attilio > > > > > > > > www.chinesemedicine times.com > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Traditional_ Chinese_Medicine @. com, Kim > > > > > > Blankenship > > > > > > > > <kuangguiyu@ > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi Hugo and Attilio - > > > > > > > > > Thanks for your replies. I have seen the itm article on > > > > TCM in > > > > > > > > Italy, but > > > > > > > > > it is over four years old and I think the status may have > > > > > > changed. > > > > > > > > I'm > > > > > > > > > attempting to contact some herb suppliers and > > > > practitioners and > > > > > > > > get some > > > > > > > > > definitive info. I'll be sure and let you know what I > find > > > > out. > > > > > > > > Thanks > > > > > > > > > again. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Kim Blankenship > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Tue, Feb 17, 2009 at 8:42 AM, Hugo Ramiro <subincor@> > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I don't know the current state of things, but Attilio is > > > > > > right, > > > > > > > > and > > > > > > > > > > some of the history was written up by Dharmananda. A > > > > google > > > > > > search > > > > > > > > for his > > > > > > > > > > name and italy and herbs should bring up exactly the > > > > article > > > > > > in > > > > > > > > question. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hugo > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --Attilio- > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I don't think you can get herbs in Italy now. > > > > > > > > > > --- > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ____________ _________ _________ __ > > > > > > > > > > Hugo Ramiro > > > > > > > > > > http://middlemedici ne.wordpress. com > > > > > > > > > > http://www.chinesem edicaltherapies. .org > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 18, 2009 Report Share Posted February 18, 2009 Hey Z'ev. Kids, go figure --- On Tue, 2/17/09, <zrosenbe wrote: <zrosenbe Re: Re: Herbs in Italy Chinese Medicine Tuesday, February 17, 2009, 5:28 PM I know it sounds impractical, but there are some indigenous traditions in Europe, based on the Greco/Arabic four humor medicine of Galen, Hippocrates and Ibn Sina, that would provide more than enough ideological framework for the practice of herbal medicine. I've found it intact in the works of Moses Maimonides. There is a large extant classical literature in the subject, it just needs to be revived. It survives in the 'terrain' mentality of French physicians, and to some degree in Homeopathy, which is still rather popular throughout Europe. Dr. Yves Requena wrote an excellent book on European Phytotherapy, applying the principles of Chinese medicine. On Feb 17, 2009, at 2:19 PM, wrote: > To be honest, most of the indigenous herbal tradition is long gone. > For example, in the UK, the use of indigenous herbs is based upon > their actions using WM theory, whereas Chinese medicine actions, i.e. > Yin, Yang, Qi and Blood def/excess/stag, etc remain intact. All the > diagnostic texts (if any existed) were lost. > > Now, what's left is being finished off. This is largely because of a > group of Belgium doctors mixing Fang Ji with other toxic WM and > killing or seriously damaging a lot of their patients. See the > McIntyre interview for further info. > > It's funny, but now in western countries such as the UK, Ireland and > USA, an animal can get better healthcare (when they are treated by a > Vet that combines the use of WM and Chinese medicine) than most people > living in France, Spain and Italy! > > Attilio > www.chinesemedicine times.com > > Traditional_ Chinese_Medicine , > <zrosenbe@.. .> wrote: > > > > That is beyond absurd, it is insane. . . herbal medicine has been a > > major part of health care in Europe for millenia. Does that mean > only > > drugs are left? Then pity the health of the Frenchman or woman. . > > > > > > On Feb 17, 2009, at 12:20 PM, wrote: > > > > > Most indigenous herbal traditions were stamped out by the Catholic > > > church a long time ago. But yes, that includes all herbs, read > Stephen > > > Gascoigne's article Are You a Nettle's Friend, which talks about > how > > > even teaching the use of indigenous herbs is now illegal in > France: > > > > http://www.chinesem edicinetimes. com/section/ 136/1/are_ you_a_nettle_ s_friend_ > > > > > > The reason for all of this can be found in the interview with > Michael > > > McIntyre: > > > > http://www.chinesem edicinetimes. com/section/ 132/1/the_ regulation_ of_herbal_ medicine_ in_the_uk_ and_europe_ _an_interview_ with_michael_ mcintyre_ __chair_of_ ehpa > > > > > > Regards, > > > > > > Attilio > > > www.chinesemedicine times.com > > > > > > Traditional_ Chinese_Medicine , Z'ev > Rosenberg > > > <zrosenbe@> wrote: > > > > > > > > Does that include indigenous herbal traditions? > > > > > > > > > > > > On Feb 17, 2009, at 11:57 AM, wrote: > > > > > > > > > If anything, I think the situation is getting worse as a new > > > European > > > > > law has been introduced that reclassified herbs as medicinal > and > > > > > therefore seriously restricting their use. Some countries are > > > exempt, > > > > > but central European countries like Italy, France and Spain > will > > > see a > > > > > loss of herbal medicine. > > > > > > > > > > For more information on the use of herbal medicine in Europe, > > > you can > > > > > read these 2 articles: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > http://www.chinesem edicinetimes. com/section/ 132/1/the_ regulation_ of_herbal_ medicine_ in_the_uk_ and_europe_ _an_interview_ with_michael_ mcintyre_ __chair_of_ ehpa > > > > > > > > > > > > > > http://www.chinesem edicinetimes. com/section/ 136/1/are_ you_a_nettle_ s_friend_ > > > > > > > > > > Regards, > > > > > > > > > > Attilio > > > > > www.chinesemedicine times.com > > > > > > > > > > Traditional_ Chinese_Medicine , Kim > > > Blankenship > > > > > <kuangguiyu@ > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi Hugo and Attilio - > > > > > > Thanks for your replies. I have seen the itm article on > TCM in > > > > > Italy, but > > > > > > it is over four years old and I think the status may have > > > changed. > > > > > I'm > > > > > > attempting to contact some herb suppliers and > practitioners and > > > > > get some > > > > > > definitive info. I'll be sure and let you know what I find > out. > > > > > Thanks > > > > > > again. > > > > > > > > > > > > Kim Blankenship > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Tue, Feb 17, 2009 at 8:42 AM, Hugo Ramiro <subincor@> > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > I don't know the current state of things, but Attilio is > > > right, > > > > > and > > > > > > > some of the history was written up by Dharmananda. A > google > > > search > > > > > for his > > > > > > > name and italy and herbs should bring up exactly the > article > > > in > > > > > question. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hugo > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --Attilio- > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I don't think you can get herbs in Italy now. > > > > > > > --- > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ____________ _________ _________ __ > > > > > > > Hugo Ramiro > > > > > > > http://middlemedici ne.wordpress. com > > > > > > > http://www.chinesem edicaltherapies. .org > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 20, 2009 Report Share Posted February 20, 2009 codex alimentarius is manifesting slowly and surely, the economic decline will help it happen http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nhApQ3QkG0Q & feature=related and their soft sell pro site http://www.codexalimentarius.net/web/index_en.jsp --- On Tue, 2/17/09, <zrosenbe wrote: <zrosenbe Re: Re: Herbs in Italy Chinese Medicine Tuesday, February 17, 2009, 3:05 PM Does that include indigenous herbal traditions? On Feb 17, 2009, at 11:57 AM, wrote: > If anything, I think the situation is getting worse as a new European > law has been introduced that reclassified herbs as medicinal and > therefore seriously restricting their use. Some countries are exempt, > but central European countries like Italy, France and Spain will see a > loss of herbal medicine. > > For more information on the use of herbal medicine in Europe, you can > read these 2 articles: > > http://www.chinesem edicinetimes. com/section/ 132/1/the_ regulation_ of_herbal_ medicine_ in_the_uk_ and_europe_ _an_interview_ with_michael_ mcintyre_ __chair_of_ ehpa > > http://www.chinesem edicinetimes. com/section/ 136/1/are_ you_a_nettle_ s_friend_ > > Regards, > > Attilio > www.chinesemedicine times.com > > Traditional_ Chinese_Medicine , Kim Blankenship > <kuangguiyu@ ...> wrote: > > > > Hi Hugo and Attilio - > > Thanks for your replies. I have seen the itm article on TCM in > Italy, but > > it is over four years old and I think the status may have changed. > I'm > > attempting to contact some herb suppliers and practitioners and > get some > > definitive info. I'll be sure and let you know what I find out. > Thanks > > again. > > > > Kim Blankenship > > > > > > > > On Tue, Feb 17, 2009 at 8:42 AM, Hugo Ramiro <subincor@.. .> wrote: > > > > > I don't know the current state of things, but Attilio is right, > and > > > some of the history was written up by Dharmananda. A google search > for his > > > name and italy and herbs should bring up exactly the article in > question. > > > > > > Hugo > > > > > > --Attilio- > > > > > > I don't think you can get herbs in Italy now. > > > --- > > > > > > ____________ _________ _________ __ > > > Hugo Ramiro > > > http://middlemedici ne.wordpress. com > > > http://www.chinesem edicaltherapies. .org > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 20, 2009 Report Share Posted February 20, 2009 Hi, its interesting to me how much this relates to a recent topic. Our minor philosophical differences mean nothing, and really unite us as allies among a big world of resistance, and draws lines globally, in the face of this real attack. http://www.anhcampaign.org/campaigns/codex On Tue, 2/17/09, <attiliodalberto wrote: <attiliodalberto Re: Herbs in Italy Chinese Medicine Tuesday, February 17, 2009, 2:57 PM If anything, I think the situation is getting worse as a new European law has been introduced that reclassified herbs as medicinal and therefore seriously restricting their use. Some countries are exempt, but central European countries like Italy, France and Spain will see a loss of herbal medicine. For more information on the use of herbal medicine in Europe, you can read these 2 articles: http://www.chinesem edicinetimes. com/section/ 132/1/the_ regulation_ of_herbal_ medicine_ in_the_uk_ and_europe_ _an_interview_ with_michael_ mcintyre_ __chair_of_ ehpa http://www.chinesem edicinetimes. com/section/ 136/1/are_ you_a_nettle_ s_friend_ Regards, Attilio www.chinesemedicine times.com Traditional_ Chinese_Medicine , Kim Blankenship <kuangguiyu@ ...> wrote: > > Hi Hugo and Attilio - > Thanks for your replies. I have seen the itm article on TCM in Italy, but > it is over four years old and I think the status may have changed. I'm > attempting to contact some herb suppliers and practitioners and get some > definitive info. I'll be sure and let you know what I find out. Thanks > again. > > Kim Blankenship > > > > On Tue, Feb 17, 2009 at 8:42 AM, Hugo Ramiro <subincor@.. .> wrote: > > > I don't know the current state of things, but Attilio is right, and > > some of the history was written up by Dharmananda. A google search for his > > name and italy and herbs should bring up exactly the article in question. > > > > Hugo > > > > --Attilio- > > > > I don't think you can get herbs in Italy now. > > --- > > > > ____________ _________ _________ __ > > Hugo Ramiro > > http://middlemedici ne.wordpress. com > > http://www.chinesem edicaltherapies. .org > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 20, 2009 Report Share Posted February 20, 2009 Last thing I heard about the codex alimentarius is that they do use advisors from the different sectors (including Chinese medicine) and that they do listen to their needs. Things will be more controlled, and given the sometimes poor quality control of herbal medicinals coming from China, this may not be a bad idea. Remember the melamine scandal, we don't want something similar happening to our sector. Granules will be regarded as pharmaceuticals, and formulas will have to be dispensed by a chemist ('apotheker' in Belgium) in a controlled environment. However, raw herbs will still be regarded as foods, not pharmaeuticals, or so I've heard. So I'm looking into buying one of those pressure cooker machines. They might be a good solution to the Codex Alimentarius question. Or we can just order granule formulas from official suppliers/ chemists. There are some obstacles, but as someone else said on this list, I don't think these will be as dramatic as we once thought they would be. I got this information from someone who acts as an advisor for the European Union in this matter, so I tend to believe him. I am also an optimist :-) Tom. Tom Verhaeghe Stationsplein 59 8770 Ingelmunster www.chinese-geneeskunde.be _____ Chinese Medicine Chinese Medicine On Behalf Of mystir vrijdag 20 februari 2009 7:50 Chinese Medicine Re: Re: Herbs in Italy codex alimentarius is manifesting slowly and surely, the economic decline will help it happen http://www.youtube. <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nhApQ3QkG0Q & feature=related> com/watch?v=nhApQ3QkG0Q & feature=related and their soft sell pro site http://www.codexali <http://www.codexalimentarius.net/web/index_en.jsp> mentarius.net/web/index_en.jsp Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 20, 2009 Report Share Posted February 20, 2009 Hi Tom. I'm glad you're an optimist. I know it is, has to be inclusive panels that work through the details. But more control, I don't like. Poor quality, WE decide on that, not just regulatory bodies. Granules will be regarded as pharmaceuticals, and formulas will have to be dispensed by a chemist ('apotheker' in Belgium) in a controlled environment. No no no no no. The health risks our profession presents to the consumer are really small now, in comparison to foods and drugs that are approved. I think clarity in diagnosis, is more important than a super clean industrial, pharmacuetical manufacturing environment. Implications of all this are bigger than just our profession. To me, the environmental standards proposed are weak and favor profit... more.. This is a supergroup, deciding at various geographical locations, who can work, what does work, what the import and export is classified as legal, etc. I don't think such broad issues and the ripples of their stance, can carry as much medical truth as if we, the global practitioners, buyers, sellers and public will offer in feedback. It is too open to manipulation and tokenism. (advisors). Every herbalist has to be taken to task for their own standards of truth in; purity of product, methods of preparation, basic knowledge of their line, and modern advances, etc. Before globalization, there were 5000 varieties of rice available from india, now, 5 varieties claim most the arable land. There will, I hope always be seed-savers and horticultural heritage foundations, but in hard times, they fall away to common need. (Walmart, who sells things people need at prices the can afford), is thriving because they are affordable. Seed banks were raided in famines because people neede to eat now, not in the future. Herbs and suplements are advancing and safe now, they don't need the kind of control this body envisions. It's more corporate than care. This monetary manipulation, the recession, is weeding out old survivors, and a couple of 'advisors' altho helpful as insiders revealing a market, won't make the market diverse. This is a big topic Tom. Pressure cooking is just one way around, I'm not looking for around the law, I've cooked probably ten thousands of gallons of herbs, without a problem to patient/consumer. This is where our group becomes more helpful, we can be the advisors of methods and selection of materials for those who come into. Who would be better qualified. I can see plenty of members here, for example, who aren't shy of speaking their mind. Thanks Tom. Hope I wasn't long winded and close minded. I don't like typing all that much. --- On Fri, 2/20/09, Tom Verhaeghe <tom.verhaeghe wrote: Tom Verhaeghe <tom.verhaeghe RE: Re: Herbs in Italy Chinese Medicine Friday, February 20, 2009, 2:47 AM Last thing I heard about the codex alimentarius is that they do use advisors from the different sectors (including Chinese medicine) and that they do listen to their needs. Things will be more controlled, and given the sometimes poor quality control of herbal medicinals coming from China, this may not be a bad idea. Remember the melamine scandal, we don't want something similar happening to our sector. Granules will be regarded as pharmaceuticals, and formulas will have to be dispensed by a chemist ('apotheker' in Belgium) in a controlled environment. However, raw herbs will still be regarded as foods, not pharmaeuticals, or so I've heard. So I'm looking into buying one of those pressure cooker machines. They might be a good solution to the Codex Alimentarius question. Or we can just order granule formulas from official suppliers/ chemists. There are some obstacles, but as someone else said on this list, I don't think these will be as dramatic as we once thought they would be. I got this information from someone who acts as an advisor for the European Union in this matter, so I tend to believe him. I am also an optimist :-) Tom. Tom Verhaeghe Stationsplein 59 8770 Ingelmunster www.chinese- geneeskunde. be _____ Traditional_ Chinese_Medicine [Traditional_ Chinese_Medicine ] On Behalf Of mystir vrijdag 20 februari 2009 7:50 Re: Re: Herbs in Italy codex alimentarius is manifesting slowly and surely, the economic decline will help it happen http://www.youtube. <http://www.youtube. com/watch? v=nhApQ3QkG0Q & feature=related> com/watch?v= nhApQ3QkG0Q & feature=related and their soft sell pro site http://www.codexali <http://www.codexali mentarius. net/web/index_ en.jsp> mentarius.net/ web/index_ en.jsp Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 20, 2009 Report Share Posted February 20, 2009 Hi. Methods that make sense. Imagine a 2 gallon pot of herb you want to prepare for someone to give them a 4 day formula. In it is a bit of bark and root, also leaves and berries. The bark and root are put in the bottom of the pot, with the lighter elements, ingredients like leaves and berry to the top, so the tougher parts bear more of the heat, to break down more easily and give their thicker nature up to preserve the lighter during the firing process. When the ingredients are layered, before firing, the night before firing, dowse the formula liberally, but not too much, with grain alcohol. This; 1) softens the cellulose to make the medicine more available(less cooking), 2) kills any potential parasites in the materials. The alcohol is gone by the end of the process, and you've made it gentler, more available. Cook again and mix and reduce at low heat. Smell it. Just one way we can have cottage industries that have fine product. Time intensive, sure, but fun. --- On Fri, 2/20/09, mystir <ykcul_ritsym wrote: mystir <ykcul_ritsym RE: Re: Herbs in Italy Chinese Medicine Friday, February 20, 2009, 3:44 AM Hi Tom. I'm glad you're an optimist. I know it is, has to be inclusive panels that work through the details. But more control, I don't like. Poor quality, WE decide on that, not just regulatory bodies. Granules will be regarded as pharmaceuticals, and formulas will have to be dispensed by a chemist ('apotheker' in Belgium) in a controlled environment. No no no no no. The health risks our profession presents to the consumer are really small now, in comparison to foods and drugs that are approved. I think clarity in diagnosis, is more important than a super clean industrial, pharmacuetical manufacturing environment. Implications of all this are bigger than just our profession. To me, the environmental standards proposed are weak and favor profit... more.. This is a supergroup, deciding at various geographical locations, who can work, what does work, what the import and export is classified as legal, etc. I don't think such broad issues and the ripples of their stance, can carry as much medical truth as if we, the global practitioners, buyers, sellers and public will offer in feedback. It is too open to manipulation and tokenism. (advisors). Every herbalist has to be taken to task for their own standards of truth in; purity of product, methods of preparation, basic knowledge of their line, and modern advances, etc. Before globalization, there were 5000 varieties of rice available from india, now, 5 varieties claim most the arable land. There will, I hope always be seed-savers and horticultural heritage foundations, but in hard times, they fall away to common need. (Walmart, who sells things people need at prices the can afford), is thriving because they are affordable. Seed banks were raided in famines because people neede to eat now, not in the future. Herbs and suplements are advancing and safe now, they don't need the kind of control this body envisions. It's more corporate than care. This monetary manipulation, the recession, is weeding out old survivors, and a couple of 'advisors' altho helpful as insiders revealing a market, won't make the market diverse. This is a big topic Tom. Pressure cooking is just one way around, I'm not looking for around the law, I've cooked probably ten thousands of gallons of herbs, without a problem to patient/consumer. This is where our group becomes more helpful, we can be the advisors of methods and selection of materials for those who come into. Who would be better qualified. I can see plenty of members here, for example, who aren't shy of speaking their mind. Thanks Tom. Hope I wasn't long winded and close minded. I don't like typing all that much. --- On Fri, 2/20/09, Tom Verhaeghe <tom.verhaeghe@ acupunctuur. org> wrote: Tom Verhaeghe <tom.verhaeghe@ acupunctuur. org> RE: Re: Herbs in Italy Friday, February 20, 2009, 2:47 AM Last thing I heard about the codex alimentarius is that they do use advisors from the different sectors (including Chinese medicine) and that they do listen to their needs. Things will be more controlled, and given the sometimes poor quality control of herbal medicinals coming from China, this may not be a bad idea. Remember the melamine scandal, we don't want something similar happening to our sector. Granules will be regarded as pharmaceuticals, and formulas will have to be dispensed by a chemist ('apotheker' in Belgium) in a controlled environment. However, raw herbs will still be regarded as foods, not pharmaeuticals, or so I've heard. So I'm looking into buying one of those pressure cooker machines. They might be a good solution to the Codex Alimentarius question. Or we can just order granule formulas from official suppliers/ chemists. There are some obstacles, but as someone else said on this list, I don't think these will be as dramatic as we once thought they would be. I got this information from someone who acts as an advisor for the European Union in this matter, so I tend to believe him. I am also an optimist :-) Tom. Tom Verhaeghe Stationsplein 59 8770 Ingelmunster www.chinese- geneeskunde. be _____ Traditional_ Chinese_Medicine [Traditional _ Chinese_Medicine ] On Behalf Of mystir vrijdag 20 februari 2009 7:50 Re: Re: Herbs in Italy codex alimentarius is manifesting slowly and surely, the economic decline will help it happen http://www.youtube. <http://www.youtube. com/watch? v=nhApQ3QkG0Q & feature=related> com/watch?v= nhApQ3QkG0Q & feature=related and their soft sell pro site http://www.codexali <http://www.codexali mentarius. net/web/index_ en.jsp> mentarius.net/ web/index_ en.jsp Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 20, 2009 Report Share Posted February 20, 2009 Sorry for hogging the bandwidth tonight. You guys humor me, thanks. For clarity sake i should have said; Drain and store the first boil, refill the pot 3/4, Cook again and mix the 2 boilings, and reduce at low heat. Sure, some flowers etc need less handling, lose potency if boiled too much, add at the end etc. I am just a beginner, you herbal techs tell me and the rest of our group how its done. Smell it. Just one way we can have cottage industries that have fine product. Time intensive, sure, but fun. --- On Fri, 2/20/09, mystir <ykcul_ritsym@ > wrote: mystir <ykcul_ritsym@ > RE: Re: Herbs in Italy Friday, February 20, 2009, 3:44 AM Hi Tom. I'm glad you're an optimist. I know it is, has to be inclusive panels that work through the details. But more control, I don't like. Poor quality, WE decide on that, not just regulatory bodies. Granules will be regarded as pharmaceuticals, and formulas will have to be dispensed by a chemist ('apotheker' in Belgium) in a controlled environment. No no no no no. The health risks our profession presents to the consumer are really small now, in comparison to foods and drugs that are approved. I think clarity in diagnosis, is more important than a super clean industrial, pharmacuetical manufacturing environment. Implications of all this are bigger than just our profession. To me, the environmental standards proposed are weak and favor profit... more.. This is a supergroup, deciding at various geographical locations, who can work, what does work, what the import and export is classified as legal, etc. I don't think such broad issues and the ripples of their stance, can carry as much medical truth as if we, the global practitioners, buyers, sellers and public will offer in feedback. It is too open to manipulation and tokenism. (advisors). Every herbalist has to be taken to task for their own standards of truth in; purity of product, methods of preparation, basic knowledge of their line, and modern advances, etc. Before globalization, there were 5000 varieties of rice available from india, now, 5 varieties claim most the arable land. There will, I hope always be seed-savers and horticultural heritage foundations, but in hard times, they fall away to common need. (Walmart, who sells things people need at prices the can afford), is thriving because they are affordable. Seed banks were raided in famines because people neede to eat now, not in the future. Herbs and suplements are advancing and safe now, they don't need the kind of control this body envisions. It's more corporate than care. This monetary manipulation, the recession, is weeding out old survivors, and a couple of 'advisors' altho helpful as insiders revealing a market, won't make the market diverse. This is a big topic Tom. Pressure cooking is just one way around, I'm not looking for around the law, I've cooked probably ten thousands of gallons of herbs, without a problem to patient/consumer. This is where our group becomes more helpful, we can be the advisors of methods and selection of materials for those who come into. Who would be better qualified. I can see plenty of members here, for example, who aren't shy of speaking their mind. Thanks Tom. Hope I wasn't long winded and close minded. I don't like typing all that much. --- On Fri, 2/20/09, Tom Verhaeghe <tom.verhaeghe@ acupunctuur. org> wrote: Tom Verhaeghe <tom.verhaeghe@ acupunctuur. org> RE: Re: Herbs in Italy Friday, February 20, 2009, 2:47 AM Last thing I heard about the codex alimentarius is that they do use advisors from the different sectors (including Chinese medicine) and that they do listen to their needs. Things will be more controlled, and given the sometimes poor quality control of herbal medicinals coming from China, this may not be a bad idea. Remember the melamine scandal, we don't want something similar happening to our sector. Granules will be regarded as pharmaceuticals, and formulas will have to be dispensed by a chemist ('apotheker' in Belgium) in a controlled environment. However, raw herbs will still be regarded as foods, not pharmaeuticals, or so I've heard. So I'm looking into buying one of those pressure cooker machines. They might be a good solution to the Codex Alimentarius question. Or we can just order granule formulas from official suppliers/ chemists. There are some obstacles, but as someone else said on this list, I don't think these will be as dramatic as we once thought they would be. I got this information from someone who acts as an advisor for the European Union in this matter, so I tend to believe him. I am also an optimist :-) Tom. Tom Verhaeghe Stationsplein 59 8770 Ingelmunster www.chinese- geneeskunde. be _____ Traditional_ Chinese_Medicine [Traditional _ Chinese_Medicine ] On Behalf Of mystir vrijdag 20 februari 2009 7:50 Re: Re: Herbs in Italy codex alimentarius is manifesting slowly and surely, the economic decline will help it happen http://www.youtube. <http://www.youtube. com/watch? v=nhApQ3QkG0Q & feature=related> com/watch?v= nhApQ3QkG0Q & feature=related and their soft sell pro site http://www.codexali <http://www.codexali mentarius. net/web/index_ en.jsp> mentarius.net/ web/index_ en.jsp Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 20, 2009 Report Share Posted February 20, 2009 Sorry, more clarity. The aromatic of the formula must be preserved. So, after reduce, bottle and seal the medicine while still warm. Don't let it evaporate off. Things that clear senses are different that those that chase wind, or calm shen. I like honey pills. The spray type manufacture that produces granules and powdered herb follows this approach. But like the big boys have said, product varies. --- On Fri, 2/20/09, mystir <ykcul_ritsym wrote: mystir <ykcul_ritsym RE: Re: Herbs in Italy Chinese Medicine Friday, February 20, 2009, 4:35 AM Sorry for hogging the bandwidth tonight. You guys humor me, thanks. For clarity sake i should have said; Drain and store the first boil, refill the pot 3/4, Cook again and mix the 2 boilings, and reduce at low heat. Sure, some flowers etc need less handling, lose potency if boiled too much, add at the end etc. I am just a beginner, you herbal techs tell me and the rest of our group how its done. Smell it. Just one way we can have cottage industries that have fine product. Time intensive, sure, but fun. --- On Fri, 2/20/09, mystir <ykcul_ritsym@ > wrote: mystir <ykcul_ritsym@ > RE: Re: Herbs in Italy Friday, February 20, 2009, 3:44 AM Hi Tom. I'm glad you're an optimist. I know it is, has to be inclusive panels that work through the details. But more control, I don't like. Poor quality, WE decide on that, not just regulatory bodies. Granules will be regarded as pharmaceuticals, and formulas will have to be dispensed by a chemist ('apotheker' in Belgium) in a controlled environment. No no no no no. The health risks our profession presents to the consumer are really small now, in comparison to foods and drugs that are approved. I think clarity in diagnosis, is more important than a super clean industrial, pharmacuetical manufacturing environment. Implications of all this are bigger than just our profession. To me, the environmental standards proposed are weak and favor profit... more.. This is a supergroup, deciding at various geographical locations, who can work, what does work, what the import and export is classified as legal, etc. I don't think such broad issues and the ripples of their stance, can carry as much medical truth as if we, the global practitioners, buyers, sellers and public will offer in feedback. It is too open to manipulation and tokenism. (advisors). Every herbalist has to be taken to task for their own standards of truth in; purity of product, methods of preparation, basic knowledge of their line, and modern advances, etc. Before globalization, there were 5000 varieties of rice available from india, now, 5 varieties claim most the arable land. There will, I hope always be seed-savers and horticultural heritage foundations, but in hard times, they fall away to common need. (Walmart, who sells things people need at prices the can afford), is thriving because they are affordable. Seed banks were raided in famines because people neede to eat now, not in the future. Herbs and suplements are advancing and safe now, they don't need the kind of control this body envisions. It's more corporate than care. This monetary manipulation, the recession, is weeding out old survivors, and a couple of 'advisors' altho helpful as insiders revealing a market, won't make the market diverse. This is a big topic Tom. Pressure cooking is just one way around, I'm not looking for around the law, I've cooked probably ten thousands of gallons of herbs, without a problem to patient/consumer. This is where our group becomes more helpful, we can be the advisors of methods and selection of materials for those who come into. Who would be better qualified. I can see plenty of members here, for example, who aren't shy of speaking their mind. Thanks Tom. Hope I wasn't long winded and close minded. I don't like typing all that much. --- On Fri, 2/20/09, Tom Verhaeghe <tom.verhaeghe@ acupunctuur. org> wrote: Tom Verhaeghe <tom.verhaeghe@ acupunctuur. org> RE: Re: Herbs in Italy Friday, February 20, 2009, 2:47 AM Last thing I heard about the codex alimentarius is that they do use advisors from the different sectors (including Chinese medicine) and that they do listen to their needs. Things will be more controlled, and given the sometimes poor quality control of herbal medicinals coming from China, this may not be a bad idea. Remember the melamine scandal, we don't want something similar happening to our sector. Granules will be regarded as pharmaceuticals, and formulas will have to be dispensed by a chemist ('apotheker' in Belgium) in a controlled environment. However, raw herbs will still be regarded as foods, not pharmaeuticals, or so I've heard. So I'm looking into buying one of those pressure cooker machines. They might be a good solution to the Codex Alimentarius question. Or we can just order granule formulas from official suppliers/ chemists. There are some obstacles, but as someone else said on this list, I don't think these will be as dramatic as we once thought they would be. I got this information from someone who acts as an advisor for the European Union in this matter, so I tend to believe him. I am also an optimist :-) Tom. Tom Verhaeghe Stationsplein 59 8770 Ingelmunster www.chinese- geneeskunde. be _____ Traditional_ Chinese_Medicine [Traditional _ Chinese_Medicine ] On Behalf Of mystir vrijdag 20 februari 2009 7:50 Re: Re: Herbs in Italy codex alimentarius is manifesting slowly and surely, the economic decline will help it happen http://www.youtube. <http://www.youtube. com/watch? v=nhApQ3QkG0Q & feature=related> com/watch?v= nhApQ3QkG0Q & feature=related and their soft sell pro site http://www.codexali <http://www.codexali mentarius. net/web/index_ en.jsp> mentarius.net/ web/index_ en.jsp Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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