Prevalence of Toe Fungus (not to digress from the bully fight....)

[Guest guest]

I rarely post, because I'm mostly a listener, but I used to get a lot

out of this forum. Lately, the majority of the posts are not

enlightening. My perspective: Lonny was provoked to become the

target of a bully mentality. Once engaged with a bully, it's

difficult to walk away, because the bully always wants the " last

word " . After all, he's got an audience.

 

I am asking those of us who rarely post, to indicate whether the

playground fight that has occupied our TCM Group emails, is

entertaining enough to capture our attention, day in and day out. If

the majority of the listeners like what they are hearing, I will stop

the email aspect of my participation.

 

Now my practice question about toe fungus:

 

I have been practicing for 2 1/2 years in a community on the eastern

shore of Lake Michigan. I estimate approximately 50% of my patients

have toe fungus on one or more toes. Most of these people don't even

notice it as mentionable.

 

Any comments on the prevalence of toe fungus in your practice?

 

Best,

 

Janis Egan

[Guest guest]

Hi Janis,

I, too, have grown weary of all the infighting of late (and am also more of

a lurker than a poster on this group). Frankly, the subject matter has been

reduced to little value and has long since lost any semblance of

professional collegiate discussion. I'm a little embarrassed to see some of

our esteemed colleagues continue to insert themselves into the fray.

 

Dear Moderator,

Please make the madness end!! Enough is enough. We've beat this topic into

the ground. I implore you to make it stop. (and by " topic " I mean the thread

of " religion, esoterica, values, tan/chen/tung, and any and all related

posts).

 

As for toe nail fungus (a welcome subject change to be sure), here in

southern California, I don't see that same prevalence. I wouldn't know how

to quantify a percentage without going through all my charts, but it is more

of a rare occurrence and something I see primarily in my elderly population.

 

J

________

Joy Keller, LAc, Dipl.OM

Board Certified in Acupuncture & Oriental Medicine

Ramona Acupuncture & Integrative Medicine Clinic

Phone: (760) 654-1040 Fax: (760) 654-4019

www.RamonaAcupuncture.com

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Janis,

 

Yes, I commonly see toenail fungus on one or more toes on my elderly patients. 

All were aware of it, and none found it worrisome enough to address it. 

 

As for the rest of your post, I delete emails without reading, once a topic

becomes tedious, tiresome or contentious.  We all have that option.  I assume

that those posting ad nauseum will, at some point, get bored and move on.  And I

have been one of those people, on occasion, when a topic really grabbed me.

 

Andrea Beth

 

Traditional Oriental Medicine

Happy Hours in the CALM Center

1770 E. Villa Drive, Suite 5

Cottonwood, AZ  86326

(928) 274-1373

 

 

--- On Fri, 2/13/09, Janis3934 <janis3934 wrote:

Janis3934 <janis3934

Prevalence of Toe Fungus (not to digress from the bully

fight....)

Chinese Medicine

Friday, February 13, 2009, 3:06 PM

 

I rarely post, because I'm mostly a listener, but I used to get a lot

out of this forum. Lately, the majority of the posts are not

enlightening. My perspective: Lonny was provoked to become the

target of a bully mentality. Once engaged with a bully, it's

difficult to walk away, because the bully always wants the " last

word " . After all, he's got an audience.

 

I am asking those of us who rarely post, to indicate whether the

playground fight that has occupied our TCM Group emails, is

entertaining enough to capture our attention, day in and day out. If

the majority of the listeners like what they are hearing, I will stop

the email aspect of my participation.

 

Now my practice question about toe fungus:

 

I have been practicing for 2 1/2 years in a community on the eastern

shore of Lake Michigan. I estimate approximately 50% of my patients

have toe fungus on one or more toes. Most of these people don't even

notice it as mentionable.

 

Any comments on the prevalence of toe fungus in your practice?

 

Best,

 

Janis Egan

 

 

 

 

 

---

 

Subscribe to the free online journal for TCM at Times

http://www.chinesemedicinetimes.com

 

Help build the world's largest online encyclopedia for Chinese medicine and

acupuncture, click, http://www.chinesemedicinetimes.com/wiki/CMTpedia

 

 

and adjust

accordingly.

 

 

 

Please consider the environment and only print this message if absolutely

necessary.

[Guest guest]

Please,

I think this is one of the most important discussions to hit this

list in years! And to replace it with a discussion about 'toe-nail

fungus')? Start a separate thread, for goodness sake, and let this

one continue. .I've learned a lot from it.

 

 

On Feb 13, 2009, at 2:06 PM, Janis3934 wrote:

 

>

> I rarely post, because I'm mostly a listener, but I used to get a lot

> out of this forum. Lately, the majority of the posts are not

> enlightening. My perspective: Lonny was provoked to become the

> target of a bully mentality. Once engaged with a bully, it's

> difficult to walk away, because the bully always wants the " last

> word " . After all, he's got an audience.

>

> I am asking those of us who rarely post, to indicate whether the

> playground fight that has occupied our TCM Group emails, is

> entertaining enough to capture our attention, day in and day out. If

> the majority of the listeners like what they are hearing, I will stop

> the email aspect of my participation.

>

> Now my practice question about toe fungus:

>

> I have been practicing for 2 1/2 years in a community on the eastern

> shore of Lake Michigan. I estimate approximately 50% of my patients

> have toe fungus on one or more toes. Most of these people don't even

> notice it as mentionable.

>

> Any comments on the prevalence of toe fungus in your practice?

>

> Best,

>

> Janis Egan

>

>

>

 

 

Chair, Department of Herbal Medicine

Pacific College of Oriental Medicine

San Diego, Ca. 92122

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

In case you didn't notice, I DID start a new thread!

 

Sent from my iPhone

 

On Feb 13, 2009, at 6:51 PM, <zrosenbe wrote:

 

Please,

I think this is one of the most important discussions to hit this

list in years! And to replace it with a discussion about 'toe-nail

fungus')? Start a separate thread, for goodness sake, and let this

one continue. .I've learned a lot from it.

 

 

On Feb 13, 2009, at 2:06 PM, Janis3934 wrote:

 

 

I rarely post, because I'm mostly a listener, but I used to get a lot

out of this forum. Lately, the majority of the posts are not

enlightening. My perspective: Lonny was provoked to become the

target of a bully mentality. Once engaged with a bully, it's

difficult to walk away, because the bully always wants the " last

word " . After all, he's got an audience.

 

I am asking those of us who rarely post, to indicate whether the

playground fight that has occupied our TCM Group emails, is

entertaining enough to capture our attention, day in and day out. If

the majority of the listeners like what they are hearing, I will stop

the email aspect of my participation.

 

Now my practice question about toe fungus:

 

I have been practicing for 2 1/2 years in a community on the eastern

shore of Lake Michigan. I estimate approximately 50% of my patients

have toe fungus on one or more toes. Most of these people don't even

notice it as mentionable.

 

Any comments on the prevalence of toe fungus in your practice?

 

Best,

 

Janis Egan

 

 

 

 

 

Chair, Department of Herbal Medicine

Pacific College of Oriental Medicine

San Diego, Ca. 92122

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Hello Janis,

 

I have a couple of questions for you:

 

1) Demographics -- are the patients mostly geriatric, young people,

or from a certain racial strain -- like Swedish or German for example?

2) Dietary habits -- is there any common foods that these people

consume? Like a heavy diet of dairy and sugar?

3) Diagnosis -- do the 50% fall into any particular diagnosis

category -- like mostly SP Qi deficiency?

4) Climate -- lastly what is the climate there -- mostly curious

about avg. rain fall/ snow fall, how many sunny days during the year,

etc. (whether the climate in your opinion would be yin or yang/

excess or deficient, etc.

 

Those are questions that would help me correlate what you are seeing

to my own practice in Oregon, which is generally a moist state. I

notice a fair amount of foot fungus here, but I also notice long term

changes in this condition when certain dietary strictures are

conformed to and maintained.

 

I appreciate the added information.

 

Sincerely,

 

L.Ac.

The Database

Chinese Medicine

 

 

> I have been practicing for 2 1/2 years in a community on the eastern

> shore of Lake Michigan. I estimate approximately 50% of my patients

> have toe fungus on one or more toes. Most of these people don't even

> notice it as mentionable.

>

> Any comments on the prevalence of toe fungus in your practice?

>

> Best,

>

> Janis Egan

>

[Guest guest]

I think those that want this discussion should do it on another forum, Lonny's

forum.

 

 

 

Anne

 

 

 

-

" Janis3934 " <janis3934

" Traditional "

<Chinese Medicine >

Friday, February 13, 2009 5:06:56 PM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern

 Prevalence of Toe Fungus (not to digress from the bully

fight....)

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I rarely post, because I'm mostly a listener, but I used to get a lot

out of this forum. Lately, the majority of the posts are not

enlightening. My perspective: Lonny was provoked to become the

target of a bully mentality. Once engaged with a bully, it's

difficult to walk away, because the bully always wants the " last

word " . After all, he's got an audience.

 

I am asking those of us who rarely post, to indicate whether the

playground fight that has occupied our TCM Group emails, is

entertaining enough to capture our attention, day in and day out. If

the majority of the listeners like what they are hearing, I will stop

the email aspect of my participation.

 

Now my practice question about toe fungus:

 

I have been practicing for 2 1/2 years in a community on the eastern

shore of Lake Michigan. I estimate approximately 50% of my patients

have toe fungus on one or more toes. Most of these people don't even

notice it as mentionable.

 

Any comments on the prevalence of toe fungus in your practice?

 

Best,

 

Janis Egan

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

It may be of interest to note that fungus of the BIG toe is actually a Chong

mai pathology.

 

Ray

 

 

 

_____

 

Chinese Medicine

Chinese Medicine On Behalf Of Janis3934

Saturday, 14 February 2009 9:07 AM

Chinese Medicine

Prevalence of Toe Fungus (not to digress from the bully

fight....)

 

 

 

 

I rarely post, because I'm mostly a listener, but I used to get a lot

out of this forum. Lately, the majority of the posts are not

enlightening. My perspective: Lonny was provoked to become the

target of a bully mentality. Once engaged with a bully, it's

difficult to walk away, because the bully always wants the " last

word " . After all, he's got an audience.

 

I am asking those of us who rarely post, to indicate whether the

playground fight that has occupied our TCM Group emails, is

entertaining enough to capture our attention, day in and day out. If

the majority of the listeners like what they are hearing, I will stop

the email aspect of my participation.

 

Now my practice question about toe fungus:

 

I have been practicing for 2 1/2 years in a community on the eastern

shore of Lake Michigan. I estimate approximately 50% of my patients

have toe fungus on one or more toes. Most of these people don't even

notice it as mentionable.

 

Any comments on the prevalence of toe fungus in your practice?

 

Best,

 

Janis Egan

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Hey Ray - it most certainly is of interest, but I can't just take 'Ray's word

for it' - I am

intrigued - can you please elaborate either on your sources or on your

rationale.

And to the group - I actually am very interested in toenail fungus - and find I

can hold

both the topic of toenail fungus AND a sweeping discussion of practitioner

values in my

mind at once - its just not a problem for me at all.

There is a LOT of toenail fungus where I practice in the northeast. It almost

always, in my

experience shows on the big toe first - so logically, I have always presumed it

to reflect

some dysfunction in the Liver-Spleen dynamic. So I am really interested in

Ray's

statement but would love some substantiation. In the 'Evil Qi - Upright Qi'

model, I

presume its a combined result of longstanding poor blood and Qi supply to the

toes with

the resultant invasion of pathogenic factor - probably damp-heat with toxins in

most

cases. I think it reflects a very deepseated set of problems that require

diligence - there

are no quick solutions. Patient needs a very very strong commitment to

lifestyle change

(everything that exacerbates damp-heat and toxins and everything that restricts

qi and

blood flow to the extremities must be fully examined and addressed) - and only

in that

context will topical approaches then also be of use.

Regards

Daniel

 

>

> It may be of interest to note that fungus of the BIG toe is actually a Chong

> mai pathology.

>

> Ray

>

>

[Guest guest]

Ray - can you elaborate on this - is this something you sourced from somewhere

(source?) or

is it something you came up with. Is it theoretical or do you also have

clinical evidence -

both diagnostic and treatment effectiveness?

Daniel

 

Chinese Medicine , " Ray Ford " <ray wrote:

>

> It may be of interest to note that fungus of the BIG toe is actually a Chong

> mai pathology.

>

> Ray

>

[Guest guest]

Then the fungus of the thumb - LU pathology?

I have a friend who was prescribed Lamisil for nail fungus. It didn't

help. Now his thumb nail is completely gone.

How woould you treat it?

 

Thanks,

E

[Guest guest]

Why limit such important ideas to another forum? Must the TCM list

always be about just CM 101? There are other interesting topics as

well besides toe fungus and washing cups for practitioners who want to

get to the crux of what Chinese medicine theory, history, ethics and

practice is all about.

 

 

On Feb 13, 2009, at 8:05 PM, anne.crowley wrote:

 

>

>

> I think those that want this discussion should do it on another

> forum, Lonny's forum.

>

> Anne

>

> -

> " Janis3934 " <janis3934

> " Traditional "

<Chinese Medicine

> >

> Friday, February 13, 2009 5:06:56 PM GMT -05:00 US/Canada

> Eastern

> Prevalence of Toe Fungus (not to digress from the

> bully fight....)

>

> I rarely post, because I'm mostly a listener, but I used to get a lot

> out of this forum. Lately, the majority of the posts are not

> enlightening. My perspective: Lonny was provoked to become the

> target of a bully mentality. Once engaged with a bully, it's

> difficult to walk away, because the bully always wants the " last

> word " . After all, he's got an audience.

>

> I am asking those of us who rarely post, to indicate whether the

> playground fight that has occupied our TCM Group emails, is

> entertaining enough to capture our attention, day in and day out. If

> the majority of the listeners like what they are hearing, I will stop

> the email aspect of my participation.

>

> Now my practice question about toe fungus:

>

> I have been practicing for 2 1/2 years in a community on the eastern

> shore of Lake Michigan. I estimate approximately 50% of my patients

> have toe fungus on one or more toes. Most of these people don't even

> notice it as mentionable.

>

> Any comments on the prevalence of toe fungus in your practice?

>

> Best,

>

> Janis Egan

>

>

[Guest guest]

 Hi.I've seen and tried to treat this opportunistic infection that attacks the

nails of the foot then hand. Chinese medicinals often have a silica based wash.

In my experience, this is a hard, tenacious bug, often if not mostly which

attaches itself to a person or group, that has had exposure with a contaminated

earth, farm, or in someone in their group never cleant their bodies well.

 Vinegar baths, having the feet in a pool, a tuperware solution for a couple

times a week, for months, and internally strengthening their immune system w

herbs, can help. Peony, astragalus, coptis, as adjunctants.

 

--- On Sat, 2/14/09, <zrosenbe wrote:

<zrosenbe

Re: Prevalence of Toe Fungus (not to digress from the bully

fight....)

Chinese Medicine

Saturday, February 14, 2009, 9:50 PM

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Why limit such important ideas to another forum? Must the TCM list

 

always be about just CM 101? There are other interesting topics as

 

well besides toe fungus and washing cups for practitioners who want to

 

get to the crux of what Chinese medicine theory, history, ethics and

 

practice is all about.

 

 

 

 

 

On Feb 13, 2009, at 8:05 PM, anne.crowley@ comcast.net wrote:

 

 

 

>

 

>

 

> I think those that want this discussion should do it on another

 

> forum, Lonny's forum.

 

>

 

> Anne

 

>

 

> -

 

> " Janis3934 " <janis3934 >

 

> " Traditional " <Traditional_ Chinese_Medicine

 

 

> >

 

> Friday, February 13, 2009 5:06:56 PM GMT -05:00 US/Canada

 

> Eastern

 

> Prevalence of Toe Fungus (not to digress from the

 

> bully fight....)

 

>

 

> I rarely post, because I'm mostly a listener, but I used to get a lot

 

> out of this forum. Lately, the majority of the posts are not

 

> enlightening. My perspective: Lonny was provoked to become the

 

> target of a bully mentality. Once engaged with a bully, it's

 

> difficult to walk away, because the bully always wants the " last

 

> word " . After all, he's got an audience.

 

>

 

> I am asking those of us who rarely post, to indicate whether the

 

> playground fight that has occupied our TCM Group emails, is

 

> entertaining enough to capture our attention, day in and day out. If

 

> the majority of the listeners like what they are hearing, I will stop

 

> the email aspect of my participation.

 

>

 

> Now my practice question about toe fungus:

 

>

 

> I have been practicing for 2 1/2 years in a community on the eastern

 

> shore of Lake Michigan. I estimate approximately 50% of my patients

 

> have toe fungus on one or more toes. Most of these people don't even

 

> notice it as mentionable.

 

>

 

> Any comments on the prevalence of toe fungus in your practice?

 

>

 

> Best,

 

>

 

> Janis Egan

 

>

 

>

[Guest guest]

Daniel

 

I have already given a reasonably reliable text source which I followed up

with over one year of treatment and observation in practice in more than 30

cases.

 

As a routine I often look at the hands and feet during palpation and have

noticed fungal infections often strike the big Toe and often ONLY that toe.

This happened to interest me even though it may not be a deep topic as the

recent controversial thread. On page 495 of Giovanni's " Channels of

Acupuncture " he mentions that fungal infections may be due to Chong Mai

pathology. I won't go into his explanation(I'm sure you can find it) other

than to say that Chong Mai descending branch has the important function of

bringing QI and in particular yin qi DOWN the legs to the feet, all the

other Yin Channels send yin qi the other way ie-up the legs. This has

obvious implications when treating conditions such as restless leg syndrome,

fungal infections poor circulation... as examples.

 

As this question is about fungal infections I will share what works well

(incredibly well) for me.(NOT FROM GIOVANNI'S BOOK)

 

I use Chong Mai/(borrowed) KD or SP points according to other general and

specific signs/symptoms. Points such as K12/13 or ST30 (often) SP6 SP4 LIV3.

The direction of qi should spread downwards. For example ST30 the person may

feel a warmth or sensation in the thighs/lower abdomen or lower into the

leg. Or LIV3 along the web or to the toe is best.

 

As fungus thrives on sugar it is good to balance the gut with powerful

probiotics (of human strain-not bovine) if the person is eating too much

sugar or carbs although most don't think they are!!Some people may well have

had their gut flora killed off by excessive use of antibiotics (cold) . If

anyone wants a web site which claims to have the " worlds most powerful "

human strain probiotic let me know OFF LIST to avoid advertising on this

list.

 

I Palpate needle and moxa Pancreas ST and SP shu points on the back. As so

many fungal conditions are kept alive by eating too much sugar and sweets I

often find these points(roughly) are more sensitive. IF they are not then I

also check hua tuo at the same level close to the spine-carefully. I may

also check the Thyroid shu on the neck.

 

As it is hot here and people sweat a lot then hydration is important. Anti

Fungal creams pushed under the nail to kill off the colony under the toe

seems to help as does spraying all shoes with anti fungal and washing socks

in the same solution.

 

Regular treatment has resolved so many treatments it is now a protocol for

me.As I have said not deep or enlightening BUT if you have ever lost a

toenail then you will how painful and awkward this can be for those who have

it as well as pointing to possible deeper pathologies which will need to

addressed with diet, herbs etc.

 

Ray

 

_____

 

Chinese Medicine

Chinese Medicine On Behalf Of Daniel

Schulman

Sunday, 15 February 2009 9:03 AM

Chinese Medicine

Re: Prevalence of Toe Fungus (not to digress from the bully

fight....)

 

 

 

Ray - can you elaborate on this - is this something you sourced from

somewhere (source?) or

is it something you came up with. Is it theoretical or do you also have

clinical evidence -

both diagnostic and treatment effectiveness?

Daniel

 

Traditional_ <Chinese Medicine%40>

Chinese_Medicine , " Ray Ford " <ray wrote:

>

> It may be of interest to note that fungus of the BIG toe is actually a

Chong

> mai pathology.

>

> Ray

>

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

I meant to say in my previous post.....

 

Regular treatment has resolved so many cases-completely even in the

recalcitrant chocoholics! It may be a deeper issue but it is just as

possible for the channel to be blocked (for a myriad of reasons) or

deficient without underlying organ/psychological pathologies

 

Ray

 

_____

 

Chinese Medicine

Chinese Medicine On Behalf Of Daniel

Schulman

Sunday, 15 February 2009 9:03 AM

Chinese Medicine

Re: Prevalence of Toe Fungus (not to digress from the bully

fight....)

 

 

 

Ray - can you elaborate on this - is this something you sourced from

somewhere (source?) or

is it something you came up with. Is it theoretical or do you also have

clinical evidence -

both diagnostic and treatment effectiveness?

Daniel

 

Traditional_ <Chinese Medicine%40>

Chinese_Medicine , " Ray Ford " <ray wrote:

>

> It may be of interest to note that fungus of the BIG toe is actually a

Chong

> mai pathology.

>

> Ray

>

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Great Ray, thanks

 

--- On Sun, 2/15/09, Ray Ford <ray wrote:

Ray Ford <ray

RE: Prevalence of Toe Fungus (not to digress from the bully

fight....)

Chinese Medicine

Sunday, February 15, 2009, 8:17 AM

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Daniel

 

 

 

I have already given a reasonably reliable text source which I followed up

 

with over one year of treatment and observation in practice in more than 30

 

cases.

 

 

 

As a routine I often look at the hands and feet during palpation and have

 

noticed fungal infections often strike the big Toe and often ONLY that toe.

 

This happened to interest me even though it may not be a deep topic as the

 

recent controversial thread. On page 495 of Giovanni's " Channels of

 

Acupuncture " he mentions that fungal infections may be due to Chong Mai

 

pathology. I won't go into his explanation( I'm sure you can find it) other

 

than to say that Chong Mai descending branch has the important function of

 

bringing QI and in particular yin qi DOWN the legs to the feet, all the

 

other Yin Channels send yin qi the other way ie-up the legs. This has

 

obvious implications when treating conditions such as restless leg syndrome,

 

fungal infections poor circulation. .. as examples.

 

 

 

As this question is about fungal infections I will share what works well

 

(incredibly well) for me.(NOT FROM GIOVANNI'S BOOK)

 

 

 

I use Chong Mai/(borrowed) KD or SP points according to other general and

 

specific signs/symptoms. Points such as K12/13 or ST30 (often) SP6 SP4 LIV3.

 

The direction of qi should spread downwards. For example ST30 the person may

 

feel a warmth or sensation in the thighs/lower abdomen or lower into the

 

leg. Or LIV3 along the web or to the toe is best.

 

 

 

As fungus thrives on sugar it is good to balance the gut with powerful

 

probiotics (of human strain-not bovine) if the person is eating too much

 

sugar or carbs although most don't think they are!!Some people may well have

 

had their gut flora killed off by excessive use of antibiotics (cold) . If

 

anyone wants a web site which claims to have the " worlds most powerful "

 

human strain probiotic let me know OFF LIST to avoid advertising on this

 

list.

 

 

 

I Palpate needle and moxa Pancreas ST and SP shu points on the back. As so

 

many fungal conditions are kept alive by eating too much sugar and sweets I

 

often find these points(roughly) are more sensitive. IF they are not then I

 

also check hua tuo at the same level close to the spine-carefully. I may

 

also check the Thyroid shu on the neck.

 

 

 

As it is hot here and people sweat a lot then hydration is important. Anti

 

Fungal creams pushed under the nail to kill off the colony under the toe

 

seems to help as does spraying all shoes with anti fungal and washing socks

 

in the same solution.

 

 

 

Regular treatment has resolved so many treatments it is now a protocol for

 

me.As I have said not deep or enlightening BUT if you have ever lost a

 

toenail then you will how painful and awkward this can be for those who have

 

it as well as pointing to possible deeper pathologies which will need to

 

addressed with diet, herbs etc.

 

 

 

Ray

 

 

 

_____

 

 

 

Traditional_ Chinese_Medicine

 

[Traditional_ Chinese_Medicine ] On Behalf Of Daniel

 

Schulman

 

Sunday, 15 February 2009 9:03 AM

 

 

 

Re: Prevalence of Toe Fungus (not to digress from the bully

 

fight....)

 

 

 

Ray - can you elaborate on this - is this something you sourced from

 

somewhere (source?) or

 

is it something you came up with. Is it theoretical or do you also have

 

clinical evidence -

 

both diagnostic and treatment effectiveness?

 

Daniel

 

 

 

Traditional_ <Traditional _Chinese_ Medicine% 40. com>

 

Chinese_Medicine, " Ray Ford " <ray wrote:

 

>

 

> It may be of interest to note that fungus of the BIG toe is actually a

 

Chong

 

> mai pathology.

 

>

 

> Ray

 

>

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Ray, thanks for the thorough and thoughtful reply. Fascinating stuff. It just

so happens

last night I was digging around in that very book of Giovanni's you referenced

and found

that discussion. I was curious - I have my own big toe case of toenail fungus!!

- so I laid

down and needled just the master and couple points of Chong Mai (cross) with

Stomach 30

bilaterally - and it was VERY interesting - within minutes, I could feel what

was clearly

blood and not just qi, moving down to my feet - a real sense of fluid warmth

filled my feet

and toes. VERY interesting.

Also great that you have discovered needling the huatuo points around T11 and

T12 - in

the Japanese-Kiiko style of acupuncture I practice, those points are central to

any

treatment of patients with any kind of 'sugar imbalance'.

Yes, big toe nail fungus is rampant where I live too.

Great stuff

Regards

Daniel

 

Chinese Medicine , " Ray Ford " <ray wrote:

>

> Daniel

>

> I have already given a reasonably reliable text source which I followed up

> with over one year of treatment and observation in practice in more than 30

> cases.

>

> As a routine I often look at the hands and feet during palpation and have

> noticed fungal infections often strike the big Toe and often ONLY that toe.

> This happened to interest me even though it may not be a deep topic as the

> recent controversial thread. On page 495 of Giovanni's " Channels of

> Acupuncture " he mentions that fungal infections may be due to Chong Mai

> pathology. I won't go into his explanation(I'm sure you can find it) other

> than to say that Chong Mai descending branch has the important function of

> bringing QI and in particular yin qi DOWN the legs to the feet, all the

> other Yin Channels send yin qi the other way ie-up the legs. This has

> obvious implications when treating conditions such as restless leg syndrome,

> fungal infections poor circulation... as examples.

>

> As this question is about fungal infections I will share what works well

> (incredibly well) for me.(NOT FROM GIOVANNI'S BOOK)

>

> I use Chong Mai/(borrowed) KD or SP points according to other general and

> specific signs/symptoms. Points such as K12/13 or ST30 (often) SP6 SP4 LIV3.

> The direction of qi should spread downwards. For example ST30 the person may

> feel a warmth or sensation in the thighs/lower abdomen or lower into the

> leg. Or LIV3 along the web or to the toe is best.

>

> As fungus thrives on sugar it is good to balance the gut with powerful

> probiotics (of human strain-not bovine) if the person is eating too much

> sugar or carbs although most don't think they are!!Some people may well have

> had their gut flora killed off by excessive use of antibiotics (cold) . If

> anyone wants a web site which claims to have the " worlds most powerful "

> human strain probiotic let me know OFF LIST to avoid advertising on this

> list.

>

> I Palpate needle and moxa Pancreas ST and SP shu points on the back. As so

> many fungal conditions are kept alive by eating too much sugar and sweets I

> often find these points(roughly) are more sensitive. IF they are not then I

> also check hua tuo at the same level close to the spine-carefully. I may

> also check the Thyroid shu on the neck.

>

> As it is hot here and people sweat a lot then hydration is important. Anti

> Fungal creams pushed under the nail to kill off the colony under the toe

> seems to help as does spraying all shoes with anti fungal and washing socks

> in the same solution.

>

> Regular treatment has resolved so many treatments it is now a protocol for

> me.As I have said not deep or enlightening BUT if you have ever lost a

> toenail then you will how painful and awkward this can be for those who have

> it as well as pointing to possible deeper pathologies which will need to

> addressed with diet, herbs etc.

>

> Ray

>

>

[Guest guest]

Here in northern Arizona, the climate is crisply dry except in the summer

monsoon season, when it is gosh dang hot hot hot and extremely humid.  I see

toenail fungus, rather than foot fungus, in patients who are elderly with

Germanic or Swedish ancestry, and have diabetes or pre-diabetic diagnosis.  All

of them are content to let it be.  I would also diagnose all of them with

dampness arising from Spleen Qi Deficiency and a diet that is heavy in simple

carbohydrates (lots of bread, pasta and potatoes), even though they are careful

to watch actual sugar intake).  Also, they have all had their gallbladders

removed.

 

I think the wearing of closed leather shoes, trapping moisture in the socks and

skin, compounds the problem, though most of them do wear sandals when they visit

me in the summertime.

 

Andrea Beth

 

Traditional Oriental Medicine

Happy Hours in the CALM Center

1770 E. Villa Drive, Suite 5

Cottonwood, AZ  86326

(928) 274-1373

 

 

--- On Fri, 2/13/09, Chinese Medicine <jonk2012 wrote:

Chinese Medicine <jonk2012

Re: Prevalence of Toe Fungus (not to digress from the bully

fight....)

Chinese Medicine

Friday, February 13, 2009, 6:46 PM

 

Hello Janis,

 

I have a couple of questions for you:

 

1) Demographics -- are the patients mostly geriatric, young people,

or from a certain racial strain -- like Swedish or German for example?

2) Dietary habits -- is there any common foods that these people

consume? Like a heavy diet of dairy and sugar?

3) Diagnosis -- do the 50% fall into any particular diagnosis

category -- like mostly SP Qi deficiency?

4) Climate -- lastly what is the climate there -- mostly curious

about avg. rain fall/ snow fall, how many sunny days during the year,

etc. (whether the climate in your opinion would be yin or yang/

excess or deficient, etc.

 

Those are questions that would help me correlate what you are seeing

to my own practice in Oregon, which is generally a moist state. I

notice a fair amount of foot fungus here, but I also notice long term

changes in this condition when certain dietary strictures are

conformed to and maintained.

 

I appreciate the added information.

 

Sincerely,

 

L.Ac.

The Database

Chinese Medicine

 

 

> I have been practicing for 2 1/2 years in a community on the eastern

> shore of Lake Michigan. I estimate approximately 50% of my patients

> have toe fungus on one or more toes. Most of these people don't even

> notice it as mentionable.

>

> Any comments on the prevalence of toe fungus in your practice?

>

> Best,

>

> Janis Egan

>

 

 

 

 

---

 

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[Guest guest]

Ray

 

Thanks so much for sharing this protocol which makes alot of sense. I have

a couple questions. Are you needling the master and couple points

bilaterally?...and needling them prior to the other point?. How frequently do

you do this tx on a patient? Again my thanks.

 

Turiya Hill, L.Ac.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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[Guest guest]

Hi All,

 

I have not used it myself, but in conversations with other Chinese

medicine practitioners, I have heard good results from using " Yin

Care " -- which is touted as: " Versatile anti-pathogenic remedy,

comprised of 14 highly-concentrated herbs, effective on a wide range

of skin and gynecological conditions. " The practitioners that I have

talked to, said that this works especially good for stubborn nail

fungus. The procedure is that you file down the nail so that it is

very thin (nail and nail file parallel to each other), and then soak

it twice a day in the yin care solution.

 

I live in a wet climate, that I have watched begin to dry out as the

climate/ global warming has changed. There is a lot of fungus here,

foot and otherwise, but the majority of people do not seek my advice

in treatment of it. I think there are levels of severity, and when

people get to a certain severity, they are no longer looking for a

wholistic cure for it, but want a quick fix, and then maybe a

wholistic back up. I treat a lot of young, blue collar, mostly

Caucasian (Germanic, French, Irish, English) types.

 

I notice with my own fungus several patterns: If I eat sugar, simple

carbs, or drink alcohol, then there is more itching. My toes that are

affected are generally between the fourth and fifth toe, and while I

have noticed the big toe being affected in some patients, I have also

notice a fair number of patients with their fourth and fifth toes

being affected. I have always thought that candida plays a large part

in fungal infections in other parts of the body. Interestingly for

me, is that when I go somewhere else, to another climate like Phoenix

or Boulder, that my feet don't just dry out, they crack where the

fungus usually is, and then they bleed. It is like the skin in those

areas is actually weaker, and can not handle variation in climate like

the rest of the body. Those are just some of my observations.

 

Interesting discussion

 

Sincerely,

 

L.Ac.

The Database

Chinese Medicine

[Guest guest]

Hi Turiya

 

Master and couple points need only be needled unilaterally. Open the 8 extra

you want to use on the right side for women ie SP4 for women on the right

and couple it with PC6 on the left. I personally open the 8 extra first

before using the other points. There are many views and ideas on opening the

8 extras this is ONLY ONE I use it as it works well for me.It is probably

worth mentioning here that " opening " the 8 extras is a relatively new idea(

details I have given below through my own research-others may know more)

Giovanni does not mention this in his Chapters on the 8 extras in the book I

mentioned earlier, I found out by other sources.

 

This means that we can and do effect the 8extras whenever we use any of its

borrowed points( for the 6 that do not have their own specific points(this

does not include Du and Ren) Therefore ST30 or any point from K11-K21 will

effect Chong mai as they are part of the Chong Mai Channel.

 

The Zhen Jing Zhi Nan (1295), which first described the eight points, and

the Zhen Jiu Ju Ying (1529), which reiterated the Zhi Nan treatments, both

specify treating the master points first followed by the coupled points.

Selection of the master point was presumably determined by the examination

of symptom complexes and possibly oriented according to the findings of

palpation or the location of the problem. The Zhen Jiu Da Chang (1601) also

confirm this theory.

 

Hope this helps

 

Ray

 

_____

 

Chinese Medicine

Chinese Medicine On Behalf Of Turiya

Hill

Monday, 16 February 2009 6:04 AM

Chinese Medicine

Re: Prevalence of Toe Fungus (not to digress from the bully

fight....)

 

 

 

Ray

 

Thanks so much for sharing this protocol which makes alot of sense. I have a

couple questions. Are you needling the master and couple points

bilaterally?...and needling them prior to the other point?. How frequently

do you do this tx on a patient? Again my thanks.

 

Turiya Hill, L.Ac.

 

 

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[Guest guest]

Hi Turiya

 

I forgot to mention that generally treatment is once per week for 2-3

months. Of course other conditions /problems can be treated concurrently and

some people do respond much faster, there are no rules.

 

Ray

 

 

 

_____

 

Chinese Medicine

Chinese Medicine On Behalf Of Turiya

Hill

Monday, 16 February 2009 6:04 AM

Chinese Medicine

Re: Prevalence of Toe Fungus (not to digress from the bully

fight....)

 

 

 

Ray

 

Thanks so much for sharing this protocol which makes alot of sense. I have a

couple questions. Are you needling the master and couple points

bilaterally?...and needling them prior to the other point?. How frequently

do you do this tx on a patient? Again my thanks.

 

Turiya Hill, L.Ac.

 

 

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[Guest guest]

Thank You Ray!

 

Turiya Hill

-

Ray Ford

Chinese Medicine

Tuesday, February 17, 2009 4:49 AM

RE: Prevalence of Toe Fungus (not to digress from the bully

fight....)

 

 

Hi Turiya

 

I forgot to mention that generally treatment is once per week for 2-3

months. Of course other conditions /problems can be treated concurrently and

some people do respond much faster, there are no rules.

 

Ray

 

_____

 

Chinese Medicine

Chinese Medicine On Behalf Of Turiya

Hill

Monday, 16 February 2009 6:04 AM

Chinese Medicine

Re: Prevalence of Toe Fungus (not to digress from the bully

fight....)

 

Ray

 

Thanks so much for sharing this protocol which makes alot of sense. I have a

couple questions. Are you needling the master and couple points

bilaterally?...and needling them prior to the other point?. How frequently

do you do this tx on a patient? Again my thanks.

 

Turiya Hill, L.Ac.

 

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Database version: 5.11720

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