Religion, Esoterica and Values

February 11, 2009

Hi Roseanne,

Well to be clear, I was speaking to the need to be precise with language and not

sloppy

and lazy. Words like religion, esoteric and values have precise meanings and

should be

used with precision. (Not so sure about 'woo woo' and 'foo foo'!!)

I would agree that Lonny is a 'provocateur' - I have no problem with that. To

some degree,

I suspect you or anyone else on this list has no problem with provocative

thought - I mean

after all, we are all being provocative by inserting Oriental Medicine (however

we choose to

practice it!) into a society drenched in the modern medical model - what could

be more

provocative? And as far as I have been able to tell, Lonny is just provoking

our profession

to get a whole lot serious about some big gaping holes in how we practice.

I also can't imagine anyone on this list should have a problem with esoterica.

Again, by

definition, if you practice Oriental Medicine (in any form, style or context) in

North

America, YOU are basing your very livelihood in esoteric things.

So we need to be honest, clear and forthright with the terms we use.

It seems the real crunch with all of this always comes down to matters of

judgment and

compassion. In the present cultural context and time, most of us here in North

America

have a real problem with the thought of being judgmental. 'Who am I to judge?'

we all say.

What Lonny is pointing to is the need to really get over that one and move on.

To say 'I

judge nothing and noone' to me is actually the 'woo woo' or 'foo foo' position.

I mean, to

offer a blunt example - would you not consider the LRA thugs roaming the

Congolese

countryside as I write this and raping women, forcing kids into a life of

debauchery and

killing all the men - would you not consider them less morally developed than

you? I

would. Now, I know some are so repulsed at the thought of being judgmental

about

anything, they would actually respond to that with 'who am i to judge?'. To me

that is

really 'woo woo' and morally reprehensible. I just don't get that. Obviously,

none of

our patients are LRA thugs - that was only to make a point. But many if not

most of our

patients are engaged in some degree of contradiction between what they know and

how

they are - and what Lonny and some of use are pointing to is that a higher,

deeper level of

practice must ultimately engage with our patients on that level.

As for compassion, I would suggest that is a poorly understood concept in this

culture.

Most just equate that with unconditional comfort. Again, I would argue that is

'woo woo'

and in the end, often collusionary. I real healer is going to offer an

appropriate balance

between that form of compassion and truth, in the interests of moving things

ahead for all

concerned. It takes a lot of courage and hard work on oneself as a practitioner

to advance

and mature that kind of practice. Its not easy at all.

I just had a patient in yesterday - I have been seeing her for 3 years now - I

have, no

question earned her trust. The acupuncture has helped a lot with a lot of

things. She was

abused sexually at a very young age. She talks about it a lot - and its clear,

that non-

resolution of that breech in her life IS the entire hinge around which all her

current

stagnation (inability to advance) rests. The time was right. She brought it up

- I dove in -

and through the entire session, really engaged with her to forgive and move on -

I won't

go into the details - it was a profound and intimate dialogue with a thoughtful,

deliberate

and intentional balance of compassion and truth. And it was all in the context

of Oriental

Medicine.

Who am I to judge. Well, after 10 years in practice and time studying with

Lonny, I have no

problem at all saying, I am able to judge and engage my patients in the full

pursuit of all

that healing means.

Respectfully

Daniel

Roseanne:

> You're right; it would serve all of us if people would

> use language

> and words that refer to complex concepts in a more precise

> way.

>

> Lonny himself is something of a provocateur in this regard;

> when I

> read his posts I often feel he really enjoys that role. He

> throws

> around his own esoteric references (orange meme, green

> meme) and

> speaks his point of view in a way that often comes across

> as

> arrogant. He is going to rectify someone else's soul?

> Really?

> Perhaps the alcoholic patient is going to rectify HIS soul.

> And does

> someone's soul really NEED to be rectified because

> they're eating

> Doritos? The word 'rectify' after all, does carry

> a tone of moral

> judgement, doesn't it?

>

> We don't really know in the longer run what effect our

> contact with

> our patients is going to have. I think we need to be very

> careful

> that, in our unconscious arrogance, we are not really

> trying to turn

> our patients into carbon copies of ourselves. If we

> practice with

> kindness and compassion, perhaps the patient's heart

> will open.

>

> RoseAnne, L.Ac., NYC

February 11, 2009

I accept it at that level, but personally, I'm

turned-off when people use it in an off-hand way to label other

people (as in - oh you just think that way because you're stuck in

the orange meme...) That kind of remark I find generally unhelpful.

Lonny: Value systems have objective qualities just as any other form

of human expression. There is no difference between seeing an

expression as:

1. Green meme

2. Deficient qi

3. Liver yang rising

4. Earth constitution.

They are all systems for the functional qualification of observations.

There is always a balance between respect and calling something for

what it is.

The notion the Spiral Dynamics cannot be tested is inherently wrong

and, in fact, it has been tested. There is tons of data supporting it.

But this is the same type of data that supports the 5E or 8P model. SD

is another functional system. It's so interesting when adherents of CM

argue against another functional model based on the exact same

scientific methods!

February 11, 2009

In communication, if the reciever doesn't understand what is being said, there

is no communication. It is essential that everyone understand each other.

DJS

:

Revolution: Wed, 11 Feb 2009 22:32:30 +0000Re:

Religion, Esoterica and Values

I accept it at that level, but personally, I'mturned-off when people use it in

an off-hand way to label otherpeople (as in - oh you just think that way because

you're stuck inthe orange meme...) That kind of remark I find generally

unhelpful.Lonny: Value systems have objective qualities just as any other formof

human expression. There is no difference between seeing anexpression as:1. Green

meme2. Deficient qi3. Liver yang rising4. Earth constitution.They are all

systems for the functional qualification of observations.There is always a

balance between respect and calling something forwhat it is. The notion the

Spiral Dynamics cannot be tested is inherently wrongand, in fact, it has been

tested. There is tons of data supporting it.But this is the same type of data

that supports the 5E or 8P model. SDis another functional system. It's so

interesting when adherents of CMargue against another functional model based on

the exact samescientific methods!

February 12, 2009

Hi Roseanne

Thank you for your considered and thoughtful reply.

As I have gotten to know the SD (Spiral Dynamic) model, I have come to feel its

no different to really consider someone's value system as being, for example

'largely Green with a good dose of Orange' than, for example, saying someone is

manifesting with 'Spleen Qi Deficiency, Liver Qi stagnation and Heat toxins' or

saying someone is exhibiting strong signs of a 'Fire constitution' or for that

matter - were I a psychiatrist, suggesting someone was 'bipolar with ' - to me,

SD is just a model as are all the other systems we use to classify things and

people, etc. Of course, all models have their strengths and weaknesses - NONE

are perfect. But when used with care, good models have a lot to offer.

I will be really honest, when I first encountered the SD model, I recoiled a

lot. I am borne of the very same culture you are (and probably 90% of the

people on this list) and the notion of ranking human

civilisations/societies/cultures/nations/individuals in a hierarchical sequence

of value development I found to be quite repulsive - with the 'post modern Green

meme' centre of gravity in which I find myself, the very basis of the SD model

took some getting used to. But I sat with it, because I recognised a lot of

validity and I also recognised that many postmodern dogmas I had to honestly

admit were simply not true to best of my discernment - I found the SD model

reorganised a lot of those discords and made a LOT more sense than nonsense.

Its not a religion at all.

Its just a model - and to my understanding, contrary to what some have suggested

here, has been groundtruthed in many countries and cultures around the world -

very extensively so.

For those who are interested (and I know some aren't - that is FOR SURE), I

cannot recommend enough that they get a hold of Chapter 37 of Lonny J's second

book - the red one (Clinical Practice) - I think its one of the most important

things written on our profession here in the West - in this chapter, Lonny does

a very illuminating synthesis of the TCM-8PP-ZangFu model, the 5 Element model

AND the SD model to suggest a new constructive direction for

into the future.

And finally - to your point about judgmentalism. I just want to say, that when

I here 'being non-judgmental' as a clinical value to be upheld, it is in the

postmodern pluralistic deconstructionist context that I associate that with the

need to provide 'unconditional comfort' for our patients and leave the rest -

ALL the rest to someone else or nature. I just don't consider that to be a good

stance for anyone who is serious about the healing arts - in fact, under

analysis, it often serves collusionally to promote illness, dysfunction and

delusion.

I wish I had more time and money to study with Jeffrey Yuen also.

You are lucky to be with such a great teacher.

Regards

Daniel

--- On Wed, 2/11/09, RoseAnne Spradlin <ra6151 wrote:

> RoseAnne Spradlin <ra6151

> Re: Re: Religion, Esoterica and Values

> Chinese Medicine

> Received: Wednesday, February 11, 2009, 9:01 PM

> Hi Daniel,

>

> I never said that I don't believe in a hierarchy of

> values. And I

> think you can probably get from my previous post that I am

> not afraid

> to say what I see as 'the truth,' even if I ruffle

> some feathers

> along the way.

>

> Personally, I am engaged in the same kind of deep pursuit

> that you

> are. I study with Jeffrey Yuen and I am a patient of his.

> I also

> have been seeing another acupuncturist twice a month for

> the last

> three years to work on my physical, emotional and spiritual

> issues.

> So you shouldn't assume that Lonny or you or other

> followers of his

> approach are the only ones out there who have the intention

> to work

> on this 'deeper' level. I don't ascribe to the

> spiral dynamics

> theory because it doesn't resonate deeply for me. I

> can understand

> it as a paradigm that someone developed and that others

> contributed

> to in order to understand something about the influence of

> culture on

> the body and mind. I accept it at that level, but

> personally, I'm

> turned-off when people use it in an off-hand way to label

> other

> people (as in - oh you just think that way because

> you're stuck in

> the orange meme...) That kind of remark I find generally

> unhelpful.

>

> The example you give of your patient holds some key bits of

>

> information that - to me - point to a respectful working

> relationship

> between patient and practitioner. That is - 1) you've

> been seeing

> her for three years, 2) she brought it up, and 3) your

> instincts (no

> doubt due to your resonance with her) told you that the

> time was

> right. I applaud this kind of work. It doesn't have

> to take three

> years, but in this case it did. You followed her lead.

> That to me

> is the key. I don't discount the possibility that

> there might be a

> time and place where it would be best for the practitioner

> to provoke

> the patient in some way. We all do need to take risks

> sometimes, and

> playing it too safe with our patients is often not in their

> best

> interest. This to me is the art of the practice.

>

> But I really do have to stick by my own beliefs and say I

> don't think

> a practitioner can facilitate growth and healing if they

> are sitting

> in judgement of their patient. By saying this, I am not

> saying that

> the practitioner doesn't notice the inconsistencies and

> self-

> constructed roadblocks in the patient's story. But

> noticing the

> blocks, and working to get the patient to begin to notice -

> to me -

> is different than judging the patient. If I were treating

> someone

> who was engaged in some reprehensible activity, child abuse

> or

> something like that, I would not just sit by and let it

> happen.

>

> I hope I am being clear.

>

> RoseAnne

>

> On Feb 11, 2009, at 12:49 PM, Daniel Schulman wrote:

>

> > Hi Roseanne,

> > Well to be clear, I was speaking to the need to be

> precise with

> > language and not sloppy

> > and lazy. Words like religion, esoteric and values

> have precise

> > meanings and should be

> > used with precision. (Not so sure about 'woo

> woo' and 'foo foo'!!)

> > I would agree that Lonny is a 'provocateur' -

> I have no problem

> > with that. To some degree,

> > I suspect you or anyone else on this list has no

> problem with

> > provocative thought - I mean

> > after all, we are all being provocative by inserting

> Oriental

> > Medicine (however we choose to

> > practice it!) into a society drenched in the modern

> medical model -

> > what could be more

> > provocative? And as far as I have been able to tell,

> Lonny is just

> > provoking our profession

> > to get a whole lot serious about some big gaping holes

> in how we

> > practice.

> > I also can't imagine anyone on this list should

> have a problem with

> > esoterica. Again, by

> > definition, if you practice Oriental Medicine (in any

> form, style

> > or context) in North

> > America, YOU are basing your very livelihood in

> esoteric things.

> > So we need to be honest, clear and forthright with the

> terms we use.

> > It seems the real crunch with all of this always comes

> down to

> > matters of judgment and

> > compassion. In the present cultural context and time,

> most of us

> > here in North America

> > have a real problem with the thought of being

> judgmental. 'Who am

> > I to judge?' we all say.

> > What Lonny is pointing to is the need to really get

> over that one

> > and move on. To say 'I

> > judge nothing and noone' to me is actually the

> 'woo woo' or 'foo

> > foo' position. I mean, to

> > offer a blunt example - would you not consider the LRA

> thugs

> > roaming the Congolese

> > countryside as I write this and raping women, forcing

> kids into a

> > life of debauchery and

> > killing all the men - would you not consider them less

> morally

> > developed than you? I

> > would. Now, I know some are so repulsed at the

> thought of being

> > judgmental about

> > anything, they would actually respond to that with

> 'who am i to

> > judge?'. To me that is

> > really 'woo woo' and morally reprehensible. I

> just don't get

> > that. Obviously, none of

> > our patients are LRA thugs - that was only to make a

> point. But

> > many if not most of our

> > patients are engaged in some degree of contradiction

> between what

> > they know and how

> > they are - and what Lonny and some of use are pointing

> to is that a

> > higher, deeper level of

> > practice must ultimately engage with our patients on

> that level.

> > As for compassion, I would suggest that is a poorly

> understood

> > concept in this culture.

> > Most just equate that with unconditional comfort.

> Again, I would

> > argue that is 'woo woo'

> > and in the end, often collusionary. I real healer is

> going to

> > offer an appropriate balance

> > between that form of compassion and truth, in the

> interests of

> > moving things ahead for all

> > concerned. It takes a lot of courage and hard work on

> oneself as a

> > practitioner to advance

> > and mature that kind of practice. Its not easy at

> all.

> > I just had a patient in yesterday - I have been seeing

> her for 3

> > years now - I have, no

> > question earned her trust. The acupuncture has helped

> a lot with a

> > lot of things. She was

> > abused sexually at a very young age. She talks about

> it a lot -

> > and its clear, that non-

> > resolution of that breech in her life IS the entire

> hinge around

> > which all her current

> > stagnation (inability to advance) rests. The time was

> right. She

> > brought it up - I dove in -

> > and through the entire session, really engaged with

> her to forgive

> > and move on - I won't

> > go into the details - it was a profound and intimate

> dialogue with

> > a thoughtful, deliberate

> > and intentional balance of compassion and truth. And

> it was all in

> > the context of Oriental

> > Medicine.

> > Who am I to judge. Well, after 10 years in practice

> and time

> > studying with Lonny, I have no

> > problem at all saying, I am able to judge and engage

> my patients in

> > the full pursuit of all

> > that healing means.

> > Respectfully

> > Daniel

> >

> > Roseanne:

> >> You're right; it would serve all of us if

> people would

> >> use language

> >> and words that refer to complex concepts in a more

> precise

> >> way.

> >>

> >> Lonny himself is something of a provocateur in

> this regard;

> >> when I

> >> read his posts I often feel he really enjoys that

> role. He

> >> throws

> >> around his own esoteric references (orange meme,

> green

> >> meme) and

> >> speaks his point of view in a way that often comes

> across

> >> as

> >> arrogant. He is going to rectify someone

> else's soul?

> >> Really?

> >> Perhaps the alcoholic patient is going to rectify

> HIS soul.

> >> And does

> >> someone's soul really NEED to be rectified

> because

> >> they're eating

> >> Doritos? The word 'rectify' after all,

> does carry

> >> a tone of moral

> >> judgement, doesn't it?

> >>

> >> We don't really know in the longer run what

> effect our

> >> contact with

> >> our patients is going to have. I think we need to

> be very

> >> careful

> >> that, in our unconscious arrogance, we are not

> really

> >> trying to turn

> >> our patients into carbon copies of ourselves. If

> we

> >> practice with

> >> kindness and compassion, perhaps the patient's

> heart

> >> will open.

> >>

> >> RoseAnne, L.Ac., NYC

> >

> > ---

> >

> > Subscribe to the free online journal for TCM at

>

> > Times http://www.chinesemedicinetimes.com

> >

> > Help build the world's largest online encyclopedia

> for Chinese

> > medicine and acupuncture, click, http://

> > www.chinesemedicinetimes.com/wiki/CMTpedia

> >

> > http://

>

> >

> and

> adjust

> > accordingly.

> >

> > Messages are the property of the author. Any

> duplication outside

> > the group requires prior permission from the author.

> >

> > Please consider the environment and only print this

> message if

> > absolutely necessary.

February 12, 2009

Daniel,

I had decided I wasn't going to write any more on this topic. But

I'm frustrated - I just can't seem to get across (you're not willing

to really take in) what I mean about why I practice non-judgement

with my patients. It really has NOTHING to do with providing

'unconditional comfort' for my patients. It's about who I am as a

person. Believe me, it's not an unexplored stance on my part.

The world is full of models that attempt to elucidate this or that.

(I've studied several of them.) Those who find meaning in them -

well, they find meaning in them. And those who don't, don't. At

this point I'm giving my Qi and Blood to learning

and to my own cultivation and embodiment of the intelligence of CM.

It's enough for me.

I hope you do have the chance to study with Jeffrey.

Signing off of this conversation now. Best regards to all of you out

there.

-RoseAnne

On Feb 11, 2009, at 9:24 PM, Daniel Schulman wrote:

>

> Hi Roseanne

> Thank you for your considered and thoughtful reply.

> As I have gotten to know the SD (Spiral Dynamic) model, I have come

> to feel its no different to really consider someone's value system

> as being, for example 'largely Green with a good dose of Orange'

> than, for example, saying someone is manifesting with 'Spleen Qi

> Deficiency, Liver Qi stagnation and Heat toxins' or saying someone

> is exhibiting strong signs of a 'Fire constitution' or for that

> matter - were I a psychiatrist, suggesting someone was 'bipolar

> with ' - to me, SD is just a model as are all the other systems we

> use to classify things and people, etc. Of course, all models have

> their strengths and weaknesses - NONE are perfect. But when used

> with care, good models have a lot to offer.

> I will be really honest, when I first encountered the SD model, I

> recoiled a lot. I am borne of the very same culture you are (and

> probably 90% of the people on this list) and the notion of ranking

> human civilisations/societies/cultures/nations/individuals in a

> hierarchical sequence of value development I found to be quite

> repulsive - with the 'post modern Green meme' centre of gravity in

> which I find myself, the very basis of the SD model took some

> getting used to. But I sat with it, because I recognised a lot of

> validity and I also recognised that many postmodern dogmas I had to

> honestly admit were simply not true to best of my discernment - I

> found the SD model reorganised a lot of those discords and made a

> LOT more sense than nonsense.

> Its not a religion at all.

> Its just a model - and to my understanding, contrary to what some

> have suggested here, has been groundtruthed in many countries and

> cultures around the world - very extensively so.

> For those who are interested (and I know some aren't - that is FOR

> SURE), I cannot recommend enough that they get a hold of Chapter 37

> of Lonny J's second book - the red one (Clinical Practice) - I

> think its one of the most important things written on our

> profession here in the West - in this chapter, Lonny does a very

> illuminating synthesis of the TCM-8PP-ZangFu model, the 5 Element

> model AND the SD model to suggest a new constructive direction for

> into the future.

> And finally - to your point about judgmentalism. I just want to

> say, that when I here 'being non-judgmental' as a clinical value to

> be upheld, it is in the postmodern pluralistic deconstructionist

> context that I associate that with the need to provide

> 'unconditional comfort' for our patients and leave the rest - ALL

> the rest to someone else or nature. I just don't consider that to

> be a good stance for anyone who is serious about the healing arts -

> in fact, under analysis, it often serves collusionally to promote

> illness, dysfunction and delusion.

> I wish I had more time and money to study with Jeffrey Yuen also.

> You are lucky to be with such a great teacher.

> Regards

> Daniel

>

> --- On Wed, 2/11/09, RoseAnne Spradlin <ra6151 wrote:

>

>> RoseAnne Spradlin <ra6151

>> Re: Re: Religion, Esoterica and Values

>> Chinese Medicine

>> Received: Wednesday, February 11, 2009, 9:01 PM

>> Hi Daniel,

>>

>> I never said that I don't believe in a hierarchy of

>> values. And I

>> think you can probably get from my previous post that I am

>> not afraid

>> to say what I see as 'the truth,' even if I ruffle

>> some feathers

>> along the way.

>>

>> Personally, I am engaged in the same kind of deep pursuit

>> that you

>> are. I study with Jeffrey Yuen and I am a patient of his.

>> I also

>> have been seeing another acupuncturist twice a month for

>> the last

>> three years to work on my physical, emotional and spiritual

>> issues.

>> So you shouldn't assume that Lonny or you or other

>> followers of his

>> approach are the only ones out there who have the intention

>> to work

>> on this 'deeper' level. I don't ascribe to the

>> spiral dynamics

>> theory because it doesn't resonate deeply for me. I

>> can understand

>> it as a paradigm that someone developed and that others

>> contributed

>> to in order to understand something about the influence of

>> culture on

>> the body and mind. I accept it at that level, but

>> personally, I'm

>> turned-off when people use it in an off-hand way to label

>> other

>> people (as in - oh you just think that way because

>> you're stuck in

>> the orange meme...) That kind of remark I find generally

>> unhelpful.

>>

>> The example you give of your patient holds some key bits of

>>

>> information that - to me - point to a respectful working

>> relationship

>> between patient and practitioner. That is - 1) you've

>> been seeing

>> her for three years, 2) she brought it up, and 3) your

>> instincts (no

>> doubt due to your resonance with her) told you that the

>> time was

>> right. I applaud this kind of work. It doesn't have

>> to take three

>> years, but in this case it did. You followed her lead.

>> That to me

>> is the key. I don't discount the possibility that

>> there might be a

>> time and place where it would be best for the practitioner

>> to provoke

>> the patient in some way. We all do need to take risks

>> sometimes, and

>> playing it too safe with our patients is often not in their

>> best

>> interest. This to me is the art of the practice.

>>

>> But I really do have to stick by my own beliefs and say I

>> don't think

>> a practitioner can facilitate growth and healing if they

>> are sitting

>> in judgement of their patient. By saying this, I am not

>> saying that

>> the practitioner doesn't notice the inconsistencies and

>> self-

>> constructed roadblocks in the patient's story. But

>> noticing the

>> blocks, and working to get the patient to begin to notice -

>> to me -

>> is different than judging the patient. If I were treating

>> someone

>> who was engaged in some reprehensible activity, child abuse

>> or

>> something like that, I would not just sit by and let it

>> happen.

>>

>> I hope I am being clear.

>>

>> RoseAnne

>>

>> On Feb 11, 2009, at 12:49 PM, Daniel Schulman wrote:

>>

>>> Hi Roseanne,

>>> Well to be clear, I was speaking to the need to be

>> precise with

>>> language and not sloppy

>>> and lazy. Words like religion, esoteric and values

>> have precise

>>> meanings and should be

>>> used with precision. (Not so sure about 'woo

>> woo' and 'foo foo'!!)

>>> I would agree that Lonny is a 'provocateur' -

>> I have no problem

>>> with that. To some degree,

>>> I suspect you or anyone else on this list has no

>> problem with

>>> provocative thought - I mean

>>> after all, we are all being provocative by inserting

>> Oriental

>>> Medicine (however we choose to

>>> practice it!) into a society drenched in the modern

>> medical model -

>>> what could be more

>>> provocative? And as far as I have been able to tell,

>> Lonny is just

>>> provoking our profession

>>> to get a whole lot serious about some big gaping holes

>> in how we

>>> practice.

>>> I also can't imagine anyone on this list should

>> have a problem with

>>> esoterica. Again, by

>>> definition, if you practice Oriental Medicine (in any

>> form, style

>>> or context) in North

>>> America, YOU are basing your very livelihood in

>> esoteric things.

>>> So we need to be honest, clear and forthright with the

>> terms we use.

>>> It seems the real crunch with all of this always comes

>> down to

>>> matters of judgment and

>>> compassion. In the present cultural context and time,

>> most of us

>>> here in North America

>>> have a real problem with the thought of being

>> judgmental. 'Who am

>>> I to judge?' we all say.

>>> What Lonny is pointing to is the need to really get

>> over that one

>>> and move on. To say 'I

>>> judge nothing and noone' to me is actually the

>> 'woo woo' or 'foo

>>> foo' position. I mean, to

>>> offer a blunt example - would you not consider the LRA

>> thugs

>>> roaming the Congolese

>>> countryside as I write this and raping women, forcing

>> kids into a

>>> life of debauchery and

>>> killing all the men - would you not consider them less

>> morally

>>> developed than you? I

>>> would. Now, I know some are so repulsed at the

>> thought of being

>>> judgmental about

>>> anything, they would actually respond to that with

>> 'who am i to

>>> judge?'. To me that is

>>> really 'woo woo' and morally reprehensible. I

>> just don't get

>>> that. Obviously, none of

>>> our patients are LRA thugs - that was only to make a

>> point. But

>>> many if not most of our

>>> patients are engaged in some degree of contradiction

>> between what

>>> they know and how

>>> they are - and what Lonny and some of use are pointing

>> to is that a

>>> higher, deeper level of

>>> practice must ultimately engage with our patients on

>> that level.

>>> As for compassion, I would suggest that is a poorly

>> understood

>>> concept in this culture.

>>> Most just equate that with unconditional comfort.

>> Again, I would

>>> argue that is 'woo woo'

>>> and in the end, often collusionary. I real healer is

>> going to

>>> offer an appropriate balance

>>> between that form of compassion and truth, in the

>> interests of

>>> moving things ahead for all

>>> concerned. It takes a lot of courage and hard work on

>> oneself as a

>>> practitioner to advance

>>> and mature that kind of practice. Its not easy at

>> all.

>>> I just had a patient in yesterday - I have been seeing

>> her for 3

>>> years now - I have, no

>>> question earned her trust. The acupuncture has helped

>> a lot with a

>>> lot of things. She was

>>> abused sexually at a very young age. She talks about

>> it a lot -

>>> and its clear, that non-

>>> resolution of that breech in her life IS the entire

>> hinge around

>>> which all her current

>>> stagnation (inability to advance) rests. The time was

>> right. She

>>> brought it up - I dove in -

>>> and through the entire session, really engaged with

>> her to forgive

>>> and move on - I won't

>>> go into the details - it was a profound and intimate

>> dialogue with

>>> a thoughtful, deliberate

>>> and intentional balance of compassion and truth. And

>> it was all in

>>> the context of Oriental

>>> Medicine.

>>> Who am I to judge. Well, after 10 years in practice

>> and time

>>> studying with Lonny, I have no

>>> problem at all saying, I am able to judge and engage

>> my patients in

>>> the full pursuit of all

>>> that healing means.

>>> Respectfully

>>> Daniel

>>>

>>> Roseanne:

>>>> You're right; it would serve all of us if

>> people would

>>>> use language

>>>> and words that refer to complex concepts in a more

>> precise

>>>> way.

>>>>

>>>> Lonny himself is something of a provocateur in

>> this regard;

>>>> when I

>>>> read his posts I often feel he really enjoys that

>> role. He

>>>> throws

>>>> around his own esoteric references (orange meme,

>> green

>>>> meme) and

>>>> speaks his point of view in a way that often comes

>> across

>>>> as

>>>> arrogant. He is going to rectify someone

>> else's soul?

>>>> Really?

>>>> Perhaps the alcoholic patient is going to rectify

>> HIS soul.

>>>> And does

>>>> someone's soul really NEED to be rectified

>> because

>>>> they're eating

>>>> Doritos? The word 'rectify' after all,

>> does carry

>>>> a tone of moral

>>>> judgement, doesn't it?

>>>>

>>>> We don't really know in the longer run what

>> effect our

>>>> contact with

>>>> our patients is going to have. I think we need to

>> be very

>>>> careful

>>>> that, in our unconscious arrogance, we are not

>> really

>>>> trying to turn

>>>> our patients into carbon copies of ourselves. If

>> we

>>>> practice with

>>>> kindness and compassion, perhaps the patient's

>> heart

>>>> will open.

>>>>

>>>> RoseAnne, L.Ac., NYC

>>>

>>> ---

>>>

>>> Subscribe to the free online journal for TCM at

>>

>>> Times http://www.chinesemedicinetimes.com

>>>

>>> Help build the world's largest online encyclopedia

>> for Chinese

>>> medicine and acupuncture, click, http://

>>> www.chinesemedicinetimes.com/wiki/CMTpedia

>>>

>>> http://

>>

>>>

>> and

>> adjust

>>> accordingly.

>>>

>>> Messages are the property of the author. Any

>> duplication outside

>>> the group requires prior permission from the author.

>>>

>>> Please consider the environment and only print this

>> message if

>>> absolutely necessary.

February 12, 2009

The issue here isn't whether or not you make judgments because you do

and one cannot live, or practice CM without doing so. The only issue

is how subtle, refined, and conscious are the judgments being made?

February 12, 2009

I think it's important to have teachers...

actually the Dalai Lama says that our best teachers are those that challenge

us the most

and sometimes we think that they are our enemies,

but actually they are our best friends,

because they teach us to be uncomfortable with our complacency.

Roseanne,

Just curious.... since you've studied with Jeffrey Yuen,

does he ever teach classes in Daoism specifically or teach Daoist rites or

rituals

since he's a priest...

Does he teach one how to be humble or does he just lead by example?

Aside from the CEU classes to make us more knowledgeable about the context

of the medicine,

has he ever talked about ethics or evolution or emptiness?

If so, it would be great to hear his side on it too, since he has a special

perspective.

Thanks,

K.

On Wed, Feb 11, 2009 at 8:19 PM, RoseAnne Spradlin <ra6151 wrote:

> Daniel,

>

> I had decided I wasn't going to write any more on this topic. But

> I'm frustrated - I just can't seem to get across (you're not willing

> to really take in) what I mean about why I practice non-judgement

> with my patients. It really has NOTHING to do with providing

> 'unconditional comfort' for my patients. It's about who I am as a

> person. Believe me, it's not an unexplored stance on my part.

>

> The world is full of models that attempt to elucidate this or that.

> (I've studied several of them.) Those who find meaning in them -

> well, they find meaning in them. And those who don't, don't. At

> this point I'm giving my Qi and Blood to learning

> and to my own cultivation and embodiment of the intelligence of CM.

> It's enough for me.

>

> I hope you do have the chance to study with Jeffrey.

>

> Signing off of this conversation now. Best regards to all of you out

> there.

>

> -RoseAnne

>

> On Feb 11, 2009, at 9:24 PM, Daniel Schulman wrote:

>

> >

> > Hi Roseanne

> > Thank you for your considered and thoughtful reply.

> > As I have gotten to know the SD (Spiral Dynamic) model, I have come

> > to feel its no different to really consider someone's value system

> > as being, for example 'largely Green with a good dose of Orange'

> > than, for example, saying someone is manifesting with 'Spleen Qi

> > Deficiency, Liver Qi stagnation and Heat toxins' or saying someone

> > is exhibiting strong signs of a 'Fire constitution' or for that

> > matter - were I a psychiatrist, suggesting someone was 'bipolar

> > with ' - to me, SD is just a model as are all the other systems we

> > use to classify things and people, etc. Of course, all models have

> > their strengths and weaknesses - NONE are perfect. But when used

> > with care, good models have a lot to offer.

> > I will be really honest, when I first encountered the SD model, I

> > recoiled a lot. I am borne of the very same culture you are (and

> > probably 90% of the people on this list) and the notion of ranking

> > human civilisations/societies/cultures/nations/individuals in a

> > hierarchical sequence of value development I found to be quite

> > repulsive - with the 'post modern Green meme' centre of gravity in

> > which I find myself, the very basis of the SD model took some

> > getting used to. But I sat with it, because I recognised a lot of

> > validity and I also recognised that many postmodern dogmas I had to

> > honestly admit were simply not true to best of my discernment - I

> > found the SD model reorganised a lot of those discords and made a

> > LOT more sense than nonsense.

> > Its not a religion at all.

> > Its just a model - and to my understanding, contrary to what some

> > have suggested here, has been groundtruthed in many countries and

> > cultures around the world - very extensively so.

> > For those who are interested (and I know some aren't - that is FOR

> > SURE), I cannot recommend enough that they get a hold of Chapter 37

> > of Lonny J's second book - the red one (Clinical Practice) - I

> > think its one of the most important things written on our

> > profession here in the West - in this chapter, Lonny does a very

> > illuminating synthesis of the TCM-8PP-ZangFu model, the 5 Element

> > model AND the SD model to suggest a new constructive direction for

> > into the future.

> > And finally - to your point about judgmentalism. I just want to

> > say, that when I here 'being non-judgmental' as a clinical value to

> > be upheld, it is in the postmodern pluralistic deconstructionist

> > context that I associate that with the need to provide

> > 'unconditional comfort' for our patients and leave the rest - ALL

> > the rest to someone else or nature. I just don't consider that to

> > be a good stance for anyone who is serious about the healing arts -

> > in fact, under analysis, it often serves collusionally to promote

> > illness, dysfunction and delusion.

> > I wish I had more time and money to study with Jeffrey Yuen also.

> > You are lucky to be with such a great teacher.

> > Regards

> > Daniel

> >

> > --- On Wed, 2/11/09, RoseAnne Spradlin <ra6151<ra6151%40aol.com>>

> wrote:

> >

> >> RoseAnne Spradlin <ra6151 <ra6151%40aol.com>>

> >> Re: Re: Religion, Esoterica and Values

> >> To:

Chinese Medicine <Chinese Medicine%40yaho\

ogroups.com>

> >> Received: Wednesday, February 11, 2009, 9:01 PM

> >> Hi Daniel,

> >>

> >> I never said that I don't believe in a hierarchy of

> >> values. And I

> >> think you can probably get from my previous post that I am

> >> not afraid

> >> to say what I see as 'the truth,' even if I ruffle

> >> some feathers

> >> along the way.

> >>

> >> Personally, I am engaged in the same kind of deep pursuit

> >> that you

> >> are. I study with Jeffrey Yuen and I am a patient of his.

> >> I also

> >> have been seeing another acupuncturist twice a month for

> >> the last

> >> three years to work on my physical, emotional and spiritual

> >> issues.

> >> So you shouldn't assume that Lonny or you or other

> >> followers of his

> >> approach are the only ones out there who have the intention

> >> to work

> >> on this 'deeper' level. I don't ascribe to the

> >> spiral dynamics

> >> theory because it doesn't resonate deeply for me. I

> >> can understand

> >> it as a paradigm that someone developed and that others

> >> contributed

> >> to in order to understand something about the influence of

> >> culture on

> >> the body and mind. I accept it at that level, but

> >> personally, I'm

> >> turned-off when people use it in an off-hand way to label

> >> other

> >> people (as in - oh you just think that way because

> >> you're stuck in

> >> the orange meme...) That kind of remark I find generally

> >> unhelpful.

> >>

> >> The example you give of your patient holds some key bits of

> >>

> >> information that - to me - point to a respectful working

> >> relationship

> >> between patient and practitioner. That is - 1) you've

> >> been seeing

> >> her for three years, 2) she brought it up, and 3) your

> >> instincts (no

> >> doubt due to your resonance with her) told you that the

> >> time was

> >> right. I applaud this kind of work. It doesn't have

> >> to take three

> >> years, but in this case it did. You followed her lead.

> >> That to me

> >> is the key. I don't discount the possibility that

> >> there might be a

> >> time and place where it would be best for the practitioner

> >> to provoke

> >> the patient in some way. We all do need to take risks

> >> sometimes, and

> >> playing it too safe with our patients is often not in their

> >> best

> >> interest. This to me is the art of the practice.

> >>

> >> But I really do have to stick by my own beliefs and say I

> >> don't think

> >> a practitioner can facilitate growth and healing if they

> >> are sitting

> >> in judgement of their patient. By saying this, I am not

> >> saying that

> >> the practitioner doesn't notice the inconsistencies and

> >> self-

> >> constructed roadblocks in the patient's story. But

> >> noticing the

> >> blocks, and working to get the patient to begin to notice -

> >> to me -

> >> is different than judging the patient. If I were treating

> >> someone

> >> who was engaged in some reprehensible activity, child abuse

> >> or

> >> something like that, I would not just sit by and let it

> >> happen.

> >>

> >> I hope I am being clear.

> >>

> >> RoseAnne

> >>

> >> On Feb 11, 2009, at 12:49 PM, Daniel Schulman wrote:

> >>

> >>> Hi Roseanne,

> >>> Well to be clear, I was speaking to the need to be

> >> precise with

> >>> language and not sloppy

> >>> and lazy. Words like religion, esoteric and values

> >> have precise

> >>> meanings and should be

> >>> used with precision. (Not so sure about 'woo

> >> woo' and 'foo foo'!!)

> >>> I would agree that Lonny is a 'provocateur' -

> >> I have no problem

> >>> with that. To some degree,

> >>> I suspect you or anyone else on this list has no

> >> problem with

> >>> provocative thought - I mean

> >>> after all, we are all being provocative by inserting

> >> Oriental

> >>> Medicine (however we choose to

> >>> practice it!) into a society drenched in the modern

> >> medical model -

> >>> what could be more

> >>> provocative? And as far as I have been able to tell,

> >> Lonny is just

> >>> provoking our profession

> >>> to get a whole lot serious about some big gaping holes

> >> in how we

> >>> practice.

> >>> I also can't imagine anyone on this list should

> >> have a problem with

> >>> esoterica. Again, by

> >>> definition, if you practice Oriental Medicine (in any

> >> form, style

> >>> or context) in North

> >>> America, YOU are basing your very livelihood in

> >> esoteric things.

> >>> So we need to be honest, clear and forthright with the

> >> terms we use.

> >>> It seems the real crunch with all of this always comes

> >> down to

> >>> matters of judgment and

> >>> compassion. In the present cultural context and time,

> >> most of us

> >>> here in North America

> >>> have a real problem with the thought of being

> >> judgmental. 'Who am

> >>> I to judge?' we all say.

> >>> What Lonny is pointing to is the need to really get

> >> over that one

> >>> and move on. To say 'I

> >>> judge nothing and noone' to me is actually the

> >> 'woo woo' or 'foo

> >>> foo' position. I mean, to

> >>> offer a blunt example - would you not consider the LRA

> >> thugs

> >>> roaming the Congolese

> >>> countryside as I write this and raping women, forcing

> >> kids into a

> >>> life of debauchery and

> >>> killing all the men - would you not consider them less

> >> morally

> >>> developed than you? I

> >>> would. Now, I know some are so repulsed at the

> >> thought of being

> >>> judgmental about

> >>> anything, they would actually respond to that with

> >> 'who am i to

> >>> judge?'. To me that is

> >>> really 'woo woo' and morally reprehensible. I

> >> just don't get

> >>> that. Obviously, none of

> >>> our patients are LRA thugs - that was only to make a

> >> point. But

> >>> many if not most of our

> >>> patients are engaged in some degree of contradiction

> >> between what

> >>> they know and how

> >>> they are - and what Lonny and some of use are pointing

> >> to is that a

> >>> higher, deeper level of

> >>> practice must ultimately engage with our patients on

> >> that level.

> >>> As for compassion, I would suggest that is a poorly

> >> understood

> >>> concept in this culture.

> >>> Most just equate that with unconditional comfort.

> >> Again, I would

> >>> argue that is 'woo woo'

> >>> and in the end, often collusionary. I real healer is

> >> going to

> >>> offer an appropriate balance

> >>> between that form of compassion and truth, in the

> >> interests of

> >>> moving things ahead for all

> >>> concerned. It takes a lot of courage and hard work on

> >> oneself as a

> >>> practitioner to advance

> >>> and mature that kind of practice. Its not easy at

> >> all.

> >>> I just had a patient in yesterday - I have been seeing

> >> her for 3

> >>> years now - I have, no

> >>> question earned her trust. The acupuncture has helped

> >> a lot with a

> >>> lot of things. She was

> >>> abused sexually at a very young age. She talks about

> >> it a lot -

> >>> and its clear, that non-

> >>> resolution of that breech in her life IS the entire

> >> hinge around

> >>> which all her current

> >>> stagnation (inability to advance) rests. The time was

> >> right. She

> >>> brought it up - I dove in -

> >>> and through the entire session, really engaged with

> >> her to forgive

> >>> and move on - I won't

> >>> go into the details - it was a profound and intimate

> >> dialogue with

> >>> a thoughtful, deliberate

> >>> and intentional balance of compassion and truth. And

> >> it was all in

> >>> the context of Oriental

> >>> Medicine.

> >>> Who am I to judge. Well, after 10 years in practice

> >> and time

> >>> studying with Lonny, I have no

> >>> problem at all saying, I am able to judge and engage

> >> my patients in

> >>> the full pursuit of all

> >>> that healing means.

> >>> Respectfully

> >>> Daniel

> >>>

> >>> Roseanne:

> >>>> You're right; it would serve all of us if

> >> people would

> >>>> use language

> >>>> and words that refer to complex concepts in a more

> >> precise

> >>>> way.

> >>>>

> >>>> Lonny himself is something of a provocateur in

> >> this regard;

> >>>> when I

> >>>> read his posts I often feel he really enjoys that

> >> role. He

> >>>> throws

> >>>> around his own esoteric references (orange meme,

> >> green

> >>>> meme) and

> >>>> speaks his point of view in a way that often comes

> >> across

> >>>> as

> >>>> arrogant. He is going to rectify someone

> >> else's soul?

> >>>> Really?

> >>>> Perhaps the alcoholic patient is going to rectify

> >> HIS soul.

> >>>> And does

> >>>> someone's soul really NEED to be rectified

> >> because

> >>>> they're eating

> >>>> Doritos? The word 'rectify' after all,

> >> does carry

> >>>> a tone of moral

> >>>> judgement, doesn't it?

> >>>>

> >>>> We don't really know in the longer run what

> >> effect our

> >>>> contact with

> >>>> our patients is going to have. I think we need to

> >> be very

> >>>> careful

> >>>> that, in our unconscious arrogance, we are not

> >> really

> >>>> trying to turn

> >>>> our patients into carbon copies of ourselves. If

> >> we

> >>>> practice with

> >>>> kindness and compassion, perhaps the patient's

> >> heart

> >>>> will open.

> >>>>

> >>>> RoseAnne, L.Ac., NYC

> >>>

> >>> ---

> >>>

> >>> Subscribe to the free online journal for TCM at

> >>

> >>> Times http://www.chinesemedicinetimes.com

> >>>

> >>> Help build the world's largest online encyclopedia

> >> for Chinese

> >>> medicine and acupuncture, click, http://

> >>> www.chinesemedicinetimes.com/wiki/CMTpedia

> >>>

> >>> http://

> >>

> >>>

> >> and

> >> adjust

> >>> accordingly.

> >>>

> >>> Messages are the property of the author. Any

> >> duplication outside

> >>> the group requires prior permission from the author.

> >>>

> >>> Please consider the environment and only print this

> >> message if

> >>> absolutely necessary.

February 12, 2009

John,

I'll try to answer your questions, but let me begin by saying that I

know there are other people on this list who have studied with

Jeffrey at a more advanced level, and for a much longer time, than I

have. So maybe they will also chime in.

In a class I took on Ge Hong, Jeffrey gave information about Daoist

cosmology and some alchemical acupuncture prescriptions. But his

teaching, as far as I've experienced it, is mostly in the form of

lectures, with a little bit of time given for questions and answers.

There haven't been any physical practices in any of the classes I

have taken. And as those who have studied with him know, he doesn't

like to give point prescriptions in class. He really is trying to

teach the theory. That said, i would say that his Daoist approach is

woven through everything, and that he teaches through example. He

really is a very exuberant and joyful person.

I think he does teach ethics, but again, it's woven into the whole.

He has mentioned that he is a follower of Sun Si Mao, and that Sun Si

Mao articulated an ethics of non-infringement in terms of

practitioner-patient relationship. Jeffrey never overtly pushes his

own point of view on the class. But he does say things like, " if you

were living that patient's life, you might need to eat that

cheesecake, too! " He says these things in a gentle, funny way, and

everyone laughs. I'll leave it to the reader to decide what

Jeffrey's intention might be.

As a Daoist, I think Jeffrey believes that each person has their

curriculum to live. Discovering one's unique curriculum and living

it out is basically one's task in life. He has said that he believes

that acupuncture, and no doubt herbs, stones, and oils as well, can

all be used as methods of instruction and cultivation.

As for emptiness, he has said you can find the emptiness (like a

black hole) at the center of an acupuncture point if you are patient

enough.

I think that's about all I have to offer right now. I'd like to add

that I do not want to be put in the position of trying to defend

Jeffrey or his ideas; I'm really not able to do that.

RoseAnne

On Feb 12, 2009, at 10:54 AM, wrote:

> I think it's important to have teachers...

> actually the Dalai Lama says that our best teachers are those that

> challenge

> us the most

> and sometimes we think that they are our enemies,

> but actually they are our best friends,

> because they teach us to be uncomfortable with our complacency.

>

> Roseanne,

> Just curious.... since you've studied with Jeffrey Yuen,

> does he ever teach classes in Daoism specifically or teach Daoist

> rites or

> rituals

> since he's a priest...

> Does he teach one how to be humble or does he just lead by example?

>

> Aside from the CEU classes to make us more knowledgeable about the

> context

> of the medicine,

> has he ever talked about ethics or evolution or emptiness?

> If so, it would be great to hear his side on it too, since he has a

> special

> perspective.

>

> Thanks,

> K.

On Wed, Feb 11, 2009 at 8:19 PM, RoseAnne Spradlin <ra6151

> wrote:

>

>> Daniel,

>>

>> I had decided I wasn't going to write any more on this topic. But

>> I'm frustrated - I just can't seem to get across (you're not willing

>> to really take in) what I mean about why I practice non-judgement

>> with my patients. It really has NOTHING to do with providing

>> 'unconditional comfort' for my patients. It's about who I am as a

>> person. Believe me, it's not an unexplored stance on my part.

>>

>> The world is full of models that attempt to elucidate this or that.

>> (I've studied several of them.) Those who find meaning in them -

>> well, they find meaning in them. And those who don't, don't. At

>> this point I'm giving my Qi and Blood to learning

>> and to my own cultivation and embodiment of the intelligence of CM.

>> It's enough for me.

>>

>> I hope you do have the chance to study with Jeffrey.

>>

>> Signing off of this conversation now. Best regards to all of you out

>> there.

>>

>> -RoseAnne

>>

>> On Feb 11, 2009, at 9:24 PM, Daniel Schulman wrote:

>>

>>>

>>> Hi Roseanne

>>> Thank you for your considered and thoughtful reply.

>>> As I have gotten to know the SD (Spiral Dynamic) model, I have come

>>> to feel its no different to really consider someone's value system

>>> as being, for example 'largely Green with a good dose of Orange'

>>> than, for example, saying someone is manifesting with 'Spleen Qi

>>> Deficiency, Liver Qi stagnation and Heat toxins' or saying someone

>>> is exhibiting strong signs of a 'Fire constitution' or for that

>>> matter - were I a psychiatrist, suggesting someone was 'bipolar

>>> with ' - to me, SD is just a model as are all the other systems we

>>> use to classify things and people, etc. Of course, all models have

>>> their strengths and weaknesses - NONE are perfect. But when used

>>> with care, good models have a lot to offer.

>>> I will be really honest, when I first encountered the SD model, I

>>> recoiled a lot. I am borne of the very same culture you are (and

>>> probably 90% of the people on this list) and the notion of ranking

>>> human civilisations/societies/cultures/nations/individuals in a

>>> hierarchical sequence of value development I found to be quite

>>> repulsive - with the 'post modern Green meme' centre of gravity in

>>> which I find myself, the very basis of the SD model took some

>>> getting used to. But I sat with it, because I recognised a lot of

>>> validity and I also recognised that many postmodern dogmas I had to

>>> honestly admit were simply not true to best of my discernment - I

>>> found the SD model reorganised a lot of those discords and made a

>>> LOT more sense than nonsense.

>>> Its not a religion at all.

>>> Its just a model - and to my understanding, contrary to what some

>>> have suggested here, has been groundtruthed in many countries and

>>> cultures around the world - very extensively so.

>>> For those who are interested (and I know some aren't - that is FOR

>>> SURE), I cannot recommend enough that they get a hold of Chapter 37

>>> of Lonny J's second book - the red one (Clinical Practice) - I

>>> think its one of the most important things written on our

>>> profession here in the West - in this chapter, Lonny does a very

>>> illuminating synthesis of the TCM-8PP-ZangFu model, the 5 Element

>>> model AND the SD model to suggest a new constructive direction for

>>> into the future.

>>> And finally - to your point about judgmentalism. I just want to

>>> say, that when I here 'being non-judgmental' as a clinical value to

>>> be upheld, it is in the postmodern pluralistic deconstructionist

>>> context that I associate that with the need to provide

>>> 'unconditional comfort' for our patients and leave the rest - ALL

>>> the rest to someone else or nature. I just don't consider that to

>>> be a good stance for anyone who is serious about the healing arts -

>>> in fact, under analysis, it often serves collusionally to promote

>>> illness, dysfunction and delusion.

>>> I wish I had more time and money to study with Jeffrey Yuen also.

>>> You are lucky to be with such a great teacher.

>>> Regards

>>> Daniel

>>>

>>> --- On Wed, 2/11/09, RoseAnne Spradlin <ra6151<ra6151%

>>> 40aol.com>>

>> wrote:

>>>

>>>> RoseAnne Spradlin <ra6151 <ra6151%40aol.com>>

>>>> Re: Re: Religion, Esoterica and Values

>>>> To:

>>>> Chinese Medicine <Traditional_Chinese_Me

>>>> dicine%40>

>>>> Received: Wednesday, February 11, 2009, 9:01 PM

>>>> Hi Daniel,

>>>>

>>>> I never said that I don't believe in a hierarchy of

>>>> values. And I

>>>> think you can probably get from my previous post that I am

>>>> not afraid

>>>> to say what I see as 'the truth,' even if I ruffle

>>>> some feathers

>>>> along the way.

>>>>

>>>> Personally, I am engaged in the same kind of deep pursuit

>>>> that you

>>>> are. I study with Jeffrey Yuen and I am a patient of his.

>>>> I also

>>>> have been seeing another acupuncturist twice a month for

>>>> the last

>>>> three years to work on my physical, emotional and spiritual

>>>> issues.

>>>> So you shouldn't assume that Lonny or you or other

>>>> followers of his

>>>> approach are the only ones out there who have the intention

>>>> to work

>>>> on this 'deeper' level. I don't ascribe to the

>>>> spiral dynamics

>>>> theory because it doesn't resonate deeply for me. I

>>>> can understand

>>>> it as a paradigm that someone developed and that others

>>>> contributed

>>>> to in order to understand something about the influence of

>>>> culture on

>>>> the body and mind. I accept it at that level, but

>>>> personally, I'm

>>>> turned-off when people use it in an off-hand way to label

>>>> other

>>>> people (as in - oh you just think that way because

>>>> you're stuck in

>>>> the orange meme...) That kind of remark I find generally

>>>> unhelpful.

>>>>

>>>> The example you give of your patient holds some key bits of

>>>>

>>>> information that - to me - point to a respectful working

>>>> relationship

>>>> between patient and practitioner. That is - 1) you've

>>>> been seeing

>>>> her for three years, 2) she brought it up, and 3) your

>>>> instincts (no

>>>> doubt due to your resonance with her) told you that the

>>>> time was

>>>> right. I applaud this kind of work. It doesn't have

>>>> to take three

>>>> years, but in this case it did. You followed her lead.

>>>> That to me

>>>> is the key. I don't discount the possibility that

>>>> there might be a

>>>> time and place where it would be best for the practitioner

>>>> to provoke

>>>> the patient in some way. We all do need to take risks

>>>> sometimes, and

>>>> playing it too safe with our patients is often not in their

>>>> best

>>>> interest. This to me is the art of the practice.

>>>>

>>>> But I really do have to stick by my own beliefs and say I

>>>> don't think

>>>> a practitioner can facilitate growth and healing if they

>>>> are sitting

>>>> in judgement of their patient. By saying this, I am not

>>>> saying that

>>>> the practitioner doesn't notice the inconsistencies and

>>>> self-

>>>> constructed roadblocks in the patient's story. But

>>>> noticing the

>>>> blocks, and working to get the patient to begin to notice -

>>>> to me -

>>>> is different than judging the patient. If I were treating

>>>> someone

>>>> who was engaged in some reprehensible activity, child abuse

>>>> or

>>>> something like that, I would not just sit by and let it

>>>> happen.

>>>>

>>>> I hope I am being clear.

>>>>

>>>> RoseAnne

>>>>

>>>> On Feb 11, 2009, at 12:49 PM, Daniel Schulman wrote:

>>>>

>>>>> Hi Roseanne,

>>>>> Well to be clear, I was speaking to the need to be

>>>> precise with

>>>>> language and not sloppy

>>>>> and lazy. Words like religion, esoteric and values

>>>> have precise

>>>>> meanings and should be

>>>>> used with precision. (Not so sure about 'woo

>>>> woo' and 'foo foo'!!)

>>>>> I would agree that Lonny is a 'provocateur' -

>>>> I have no problem

>>>>> with that. To some degree,

>>>>> I suspect you or anyone else on this list has no

>>>> problem with

>>>>> provocative thought - I mean

>>>>> after all, we are all being provocative by inserting

>>>> Oriental

>>>>> Medicine (however we choose to

>>>>> practice it!) into a society drenched in the modern

>>>> medical model -

>>>>> what could be more

>>>>> provocative? And as far as I have been able to tell,

>>>> Lonny is just

>>>>> provoking our profession

>>>>> to get a whole lot serious about some big gaping holes

>>>> in how we

>>>>> practice.

>>>>> I also can't imagine anyone on this list should

>>>> have a problem with

>>>>> esoterica. Again, by

>>>>> definition, if you practice Oriental Medicine (in any

>>>> form, style

>>>>> or context) in North

>>>>> America, YOU are basing your very livelihood in

>>>> esoteric things.

>>>>> So we need to be honest, clear and forthright with the

>>>> terms we use.

>>>>> It seems the real crunch with all of this always comes

>>>> down to

>>>>> matters of judgment and

>>>>> compassion. In the present cultural context and time,

>>>> most of us

>>>>> here in North America

>>>>> have a real problem with the thought of being

>>>> judgmental. 'Who am

>>>>> I to judge?' we all say.

>>>>> What Lonny is pointing to is the need to really get

>>>> over that one

>>>>> and move on. To say 'I

>>>>> judge nothing and noone' to me is actually the

>>>> 'woo woo' or 'foo

>>>>> foo' position. I mean, to

>>>>> offer a blunt example - would you not consider the LRA

>>>> thugs

>>>>> roaming the Congolese

>>>>> countryside as I write this and raping women, forcing

>>>> kids into a

>>>>> life of debauchery and

>>>>> killing all the men - would you not consider them less

>>>> morally

>>>>> developed than you? I

>>>>> would. Now, I know some are so repulsed at the

>>>> thought of being

>>>>> judgmental about

>>>>> anything, they would actually respond to that with

>>>> 'who am i to

>>>>> judge?'. To me that is

>>>>> really 'woo woo' and morally reprehensible. I

>>>> just don't get

>>>>> that. Obviously, none of

>>>>> our patients are LRA thugs - that was only to make a

>>>> point. But

>>>>> many if not most of our

>>>>> patients are engaged in some degree of contradiction

>>>> between what

>>>>> they know and how

>>>>> they are - and what Lonny and some of use are pointing

>>>> to is that a

>>>>> higher, deeper level of

>>>>> practice must ultimately engage with our patients on

>>>> that level.

>>>>> As for compassion, I would suggest that is a poorly

>>>> understood

>>>>> concept in this culture.

>>>>> Most just equate that with unconditional comfort.

>>>> Again, I would

>>>>> argue that is 'woo woo'

>>>>> and in the end, often collusionary. I real healer is

>>>> going to

>>>>> offer an appropriate balance

>>>>> between that form of compassion and truth, in the

>>>> interests of

>>>>> moving things ahead for all

>>>>> concerned. It takes a lot of courage and hard work on

>>>> oneself as a

>>>>> practitioner to advance

>>>>> and mature that kind of practice. Its not easy at

>>>> all.

>>>>> I just had a patient in yesterday - I have been seeing

>>>> her for 3

>>>>> years now - I have, no

>>>>> question earned her trust. The acupuncture has helped

>>>> a lot with a

>>>>> lot of things. She was

>>>>> abused sexually at a very young age. She talks about

>>>> it a lot -

>>>>> and its clear, that non-

>>>>> resolution of that breech in her life IS the entire

>>>> hinge around

>>>>> which all her current

>>>>> stagnation (inability to advance) rests. The time was

>>>> right. She

>>>>> brought it up - I dove in -

>>>>> and through the entire session, really engaged with

>>>> her to forgive

>>>>> and move on - I won't

>>>>> go into the details - it was a profound and intimate

>>>> dialogue with

>>>>> a thoughtful, deliberate

>>>>> and intentional balance of compassion and truth. And

>>>> it was all in

>>>>> the context of Oriental

>>>>> Medicine.

>>>>> Who am I to judge. Well, after 10 years in practice

>>>> and time

>>>>> studying with Lonny, I have no

>>>>> problem at all saying, I am able to judge and engage

>>>> my patients in

>>>>> the full pursuit of all

>>>>> that healing means.

>>>>> Respectfully

>>>>> Daniel

>>>>>

>>>>> Roseanne:

>>>>>> You're right; it would serve all of us if

>>>> people would

>>>>>> use language

>>>>>> and words that refer to complex concepts in a more

>>>> precise

>>>>>> way.

>>>>>>

>>>>>> Lonny himself is something of a provocateur in

>>>> this regard;

>>>>>> when I

>>>>>> read his posts I often feel he really enjoys that

>>>> role. He

>>>>>> throws

>>>>>> around his own esoteric references (orange meme,

>>>> green

>>>>>> meme) and

>>>>>> speaks his point of view in a way that often comes

>>>> across

>>>>>> as

>>>>>> arrogant. He is going to rectify someone

>>>> else's soul?

>>>>>> Really?

>>>>>> Perhaps the alcoholic patient is going to rectify

>>>> HIS soul.

>>>>>> And does

>>>>>> someone's soul really NEED to be rectified

>>>> because

>>>>>> they're eating

>>>>>> Doritos? The word 'rectify' after all,

>>>> does carry

>>>>>> a tone of moral

>>>>>> judgement, doesn't it?

>>>>>>

>>>>>> We don't really know in the longer run what

>>>> effect our

>>>>>> contact with

>>>>>> our patients is going to have. I think we need to

>>>> be very

>>>>>> careful

>>>>>> that, in our unconscious arrogance, we are not

>>>> really

>>>>>> trying to turn

>>>>>> our patients into carbon copies of ourselves. If

>>>> we

>>>>>> practice with

>>>>>> kindness and compassion, perhaps the patient's

>>>> heart

>>>>>> will open.

>>>>>>

>>>>>> RoseAnne, L.Ac., NYC

>>>>>

>>>>> ---

>>>>>

>>>>> Subscribe to the free online journal for TCM at

>>>>

>>>>> Times http://www.chinesemedicinetimes.com

>>>>>

>>>>> Help build the world's largest online encyclopedia

>>>> for Chinese

>>>>> medicine and acupuncture, click, http://

>>>>> www.chinesemedicinetimes.com/wiki/CMTpedia

>>>>>

>>>>> http://

>>>>

>>>>>

>>>> and

>>>> adjust

>>>>> accordingly.

>>>>>

>>>>> Messages are the property of the author. Any

>>>> duplication outside

>>>>> the group requires prior permission from the author.

>>>>>

>>>>> Please consider the environment and only print this

>>>> message if

>>>>> absolutely necessary.

February 12, 2009

Hi. Wow. Ge Hung, Ko Hung is one of my favorite Daoist. His book the Nei

P'ien, I've read so many times since I was a teenager, I had to hold it

together over the decades w duck tape (duct tape), and it has so many sticky

notes now, and pages of reflection I inserted in it.

In it, the method of inquiry between teacher and student is, maybe

allegorically displayed. But the student says what is on their mind, and

challenges the teacher. They take each other seriously.

Honestly, this talk about spiral dynamics, green purple, tcm vs channel,

evolutionary stuff just gives me a fucking headache. No surprise to me some of

the greats in this group just sit back. I mean, having a snowball fight w your

kids is evolutionary, and in love, revolutionary, day to day. How beautiful.

Lying in bed w your wife and hearing a child stir, and listening, wondering if

you have to comfort them, then you hear them laugh in their sleep, and you both

relax. And in adolescence the kids find stuff, what color is that? So you take

time to grab them and hold them, and I'm a no holds barred parent, I'll go to

wherever they are smoking dope, or whatever and stick my head in, just to say

hi. Loves have told me I'm crazy. I don't care, I love my children. I always

will. My balls have no boundary when it comes to them. Sunday mornings,

preparing all kinds of food for the sleepover kids. Then we would fight, ten

kids attack me, and lay them gently in

a pile. So much fun. And if they drank, spit or pissed on the porch, guess

what, we're cleaning it up today.

And later, they are bigger, come w baseball bats, and see them break on my legs

etc. My childen's friends remember me as the adult who liked to have fun w

them. Now they are in thier twenties, some w kids, some just getting clear. But

they remember me, and call me Mr.

When we exit this place, when we stand up- fly up, what is gonna stick w us,

the meme stuff, or a real love that was, or almost was. Or a love that just fell

to pieces, and becomes surprising sad dreams for years, things that are waking

our patients up for years into their new relationships, and thier lovers may not

understand, because of the hurt, because of what they wanted was so destroyed.

These are real people, who want to know, who are on the path we are. Hey

Jeffrey, Robert, you guys could say a lot, just bring it. Z'ev, Bob,...

My words really suck. I want to know how all this plays in yer mind. You guys

are the fountainhead in a way.

The last image of heart sutra, after praising, summoning, offering, and

experiencing the flow of love to all things, the in and out breath of light,

after you healed and invigorated all the universes, the afterglow of Buddha

rests in your own heart. The tears. What more could you do? Argue about point

selection?

I'll be quiet for a bit, cause I don't know how to say , or ask about what I

want to know.

Simplicity is the goal, but not stupid.

There are so many on this list, who are not giving their advice. I'm afraid

that this group will fraction. Thanks.

--- On Thu, 2/12/09, RoseAnne Spradlin <ra6151 wrote:

RoseAnne Spradlin <ra6151

Re: Re: Religion, Esoterica and Values

Chinese Medicine

Thursday, February 12, 2009, 4:57 PM