Guest guest Posted February 11, 2009 Report Share Posted February 11, 2009 Hi Daniel, I never said that I don't believe in a hierarchy of values. And I think you can probably get from my previous post that I am not afraid to say what I see as 'the truth,' even if I ruffle some feathers along the way. Personally, I am engaged in the same kind of deep pursuit that you are. I study with Jeffrey Yuen and I am a patient of his. I also have been seeing another acupuncturist twice a month for the last three years to work on my physical, emotional and spiritual issues. So you shouldn't assume that Lonny or you or other followers of his approach are the only ones out there who have the intention to work on this 'deeper' level. I don't ascribe to the spiral dynamics theory because it doesn't resonate deeply for me. I can understand it as a paradigm that someone developed and that others contributed to in order to understand something about the influence of culture on the body and mind. I accept it at that level, but personally, I'm turned-off when people use it in an off-hand way to label other people (as in - oh you just think that way because you're stuck in the orange meme...) That kind of remark I find generally unhelpful. The example you give of your patient holds some key bits of information that - to me - point to a respectful working relationship between patient and practitioner. That is - 1) you've been seeing her for three years, 2) she brought it up, and 3) your instincts (no doubt due to your resonance with her) told you that the time was right. I applaud this kind of work. It doesn't have to take three years, but in this case it did. You followed her lead. That to me is the key. I don't discount the possibility that there might be a time and place where it would be best for the practitioner to provoke the patient in some way. We all do need to take risks sometimes, and playing it too safe with our patients is often not in their best interest. This to me is the art of the practice. But I really do have to stick by my own beliefs and say I don't think a practitioner can facilitate growth and healing if they are sitting in judgement of their patient. By saying this, I am not saying that the practitioner doesn't notice the inconsistencies and self- constructed roadblocks in the patient's story. But noticing the blocks, and working to get the patient to begin to notice - to me - is different than judging the patient. If I were treating someone who was engaged in some reprehensible activity, child abuse or something like that, I would not just sit by and let it happen. I hope I am being clear. RoseAnne On Feb 11, 2009, at 12:49 PM, Daniel Schulman wrote: > Hi Roseanne, > Well to be clear, I was speaking to the need to be precise with > language and not sloppy > and lazy. Words like religion, esoteric and values have precise > meanings and should be > used with precision. (Not so sure about 'woo woo' and 'foo foo'!!) > I would agree that Lonny is a 'provocateur' - I have no problem > with that. To some degree, > I suspect you or anyone else on this list has no problem with > provocative thought - I mean > after all, we are all being provocative by inserting Oriental > Medicine (however we choose to > practice it!) into a society drenched in the modern medical model - > what could be more > provocative? And as far as I have been able to tell, Lonny is just > provoking our profession > to get a whole lot serious about some big gaping holes in how we > practice. > I also can't imagine anyone on this list should have a problem with > esoterica. Again, by > definition, if you practice Oriental Medicine (in any form, style > or context) in North > America, YOU are basing your very livelihood in esoteric things. > So we need to be honest, clear and forthright with the terms we use. > It seems the real crunch with all of this always comes down to > matters of judgment and > compassion. In the present cultural context and time, most of us > here in North America > have a real problem with the thought of being judgmental. 'Who am > I to judge?' we all say. > What Lonny is pointing to is the need to really get over that one > and move on. To say 'I > judge nothing and noone' to me is actually the 'woo woo' or 'foo > foo' position. I mean, to > offer a blunt example - would you not consider the LRA thugs > roaming the Congolese > countryside as I write this and raping women, forcing kids into a > life of debauchery and > killing all the men - would you not consider them less morally > developed than you? I > would. Now, I know some are so repulsed at the thought of being > judgmental about > anything, they would actually respond to that with 'who am i to > judge?'. To me that is > really 'woo woo' and morally reprehensible. I just don't get > that. Obviously, none of > our patients are LRA thugs - that was only to make a point. But > many if not most of our > patients are engaged in some degree of contradiction between what > they know and how > they are - and what Lonny and some of use are pointing to is that a > higher, deeper level of > practice must ultimately engage with our patients on that level. > As for compassion, I would suggest that is a poorly understood > concept in this culture. > Most just equate that with unconditional comfort. Again, I would > argue that is 'woo woo' > and in the end, often collusionary. I real healer is going to > offer an appropriate balance > between that form of compassion and truth, in the interests of > moving things ahead for all > concerned. It takes a lot of courage and hard work on oneself as a > practitioner to advance > and mature that kind of practice. Its not easy at all. > I just had a patient in yesterday - I have been seeing her for 3 > years now - I have, no > question earned her trust. The acupuncture has helped a lot with a > lot of things. She was > abused sexually at a very young age. She talks about it a lot - > and its clear, that non- > resolution of that breech in her life IS the entire hinge around > which all her current > stagnation (inability to advance) rests. The time was right. She > brought it up - I dove in - > and through the entire session, really engaged with her to forgive > and move on - I won't > go into the details - it was a profound and intimate dialogue with > a thoughtful, deliberate > and intentional balance of compassion and truth. And it was all in > the context of Oriental > Medicine. > Who am I to judge. Well, after 10 years in practice and time > studying with Lonny, I have no > problem at all saying, I am able to judge and engage my patients in > the full pursuit of all > that healing means. > Respectfully > Daniel > > > > Roseanne: >> You're right; it would serve all of us if people would >> use language >> and words that refer to complex concepts in a more precise >> way. >> >> Lonny himself is something of a provocateur in this regard; >> when I >> read his posts I often feel he really enjoys that role. He >> throws >> around his own esoteric references (orange meme, green >> meme) and >> speaks his point of view in a way that often comes across >> as >> arrogant. He is going to rectify someone else's soul? >> Really? >> Perhaps the alcoholic patient is going to rectify HIS soul. >> And does >> someone's soul really NEED to be rectified because >> they're eating >> Doritos? The word 'rectify' after all, does carry >> a tone of moral >> judgement, doesn't it? >> >> We don't really know in the longer run what effect our >> contact with >> our patients is going to have. I think we need to be very >> careful >> that, in our unconscious arrogance, we are not really >> trying to turn >> our patients into carbon copies of ourselves. If we >> practice with >> kindness and compassion, perhaps the patient's heart >> will open. >> >> RoseAnne, L.Ac., NYC > > > > --- > > Subscribe to the free online journal for TCM at > Times http://www.chinesemedicinetimes.com > > Help build the world's largest online encyclopedia for Chinese > medicine and acupuncture, click, http:// > www.chinesemedicinetimes.com/wiki/CMTpedia > > http:// > and adjust > accordingly. > > Messages are the property of the author. Any duplication outside > the group requires prior permission from the author. > > Please consider the environment and only print this message if > absolutely necessary. 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