Guest guest Posted February 11, 2009 Report Share Posted February 11, 2009 Treating the channels treats the root and the branches. What nonsense to think otherwise... Of the diagnosis systems here, which one is really acupuncture's? Zang Fu Shang Han Lun 6 channel Wei, Qi, Ying, Xue Channels and collaterals 5 element yin/yang TCM had to put Acupuncture and herbs together during the 1950's in Communist China. They do not diagnose the same. Acupuncturists need to palpate the channels more and understand the flow of the collaterals to treat. Acupuncture classics like the Ling Shu and Nan Jing do not even mention Liver Qi Stagnation or Spleen Yang Deficiency like modern TCM does. Ancients learned with an Acupuncturist or Herbalist and apprenticed to them. They were two separate arts. Even today, when people from Taiwan speak to me and they know I am a Zhong Yi, thay ask me if I also know Zhen Jiu. They have already assumed I know herbology. That would imply even the common layman knows they were 2 separate arts in the past. Its a pity TCM puts the two arts together, but you got to start from somewhere. Best regards, Robert Chu On Wed, Feb 11, 2009 at 10:06 AM, Benjamin Hawes, L.Ac. < bhawes wrote: > > Kim: > > Yes! I wonder why it's such a threatening concept that treating pain > itself helps to correct so many imbalances, or that the two are part of > the same process, and may be approached from either angle or both? > research certainly supports the pain/immune f(x) link, and the > stress/pain links, so no wonder acupuncture, which relieves pain AND > causes lasting autonomic changes ought to do so much. And treating the > channels is a pretty uncontroversial move - I mean, isn't that what most > of acupuncture's history consisted of? and can you do anything else > *but* " treat " a " channel " ? > > we need to be able to understand the strong " placebo " , i.e. nonspecific > response of acupuncture (which exists!), and then differentiate it from > any specific responses we are able to produce. Tan/Tung/Chen styles, > which produce remarkable instant results, with changes in ROM that are > often equally dramatic, with point-specific changes to spinal > subluxations, shoulder height, etc, would be a valuable research tool. > Because it would be easy to use wrong points vs. right points, because > of the quick feedback. > > But I don't get people who think that somehow this is not " real " relief > of pain, that somehow it is analgesic and not treating the cause, if the > results last for weeks, months, or forever. I mean, we aren't severing > nerves, so what is the mechanism other than actual healing of the lesions? > > Ben Hawes, LAc. > > Re: Physical Therapists doing " Dry needling " . How is this different > < > Chinese Medicine/message/32068;_ylc=X3\ oDMTJyNWNwZnVjBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE1BGdycElkAzk0OTU5NzcEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1MDYwODE0BG1zZ0\ lkAzMyMDY4BHNlYwNkbXNnBHNsawN2bXNnBHN0aW1lAzEyMzQyODE4NTc- > > > > Posted by: " Kim Blankenship " kuangguiyu <kuangguiyu%40gmail.com> > <kuangguiyu <kuangguiyu%40gmail.com> > ?Subject=%20Re%3A%20Physical%20Therapists%20doing%20%22Dry%20needling%22%2E%20Ho\ w%20is%20this%20different> > kuangguiyu <http://profiles./kuangguiyu> > > Mon Feb 9, 2009 6:35 pm (PST) > > Unless I've missed something vital along the way here, no one is > suggesting > that we should only treat pain and ignore deeper issues. The point I > tried > to make a few days ago - and which is still being somehow lost in the > shuffle here - is that Balance Method/Meridian- > style treatments DON'T JUST > ADDRESS PAIN. One can successfully treat internal medicine issues with > these modalities and balance in the physical, mental/emotional and > spiritual > levels can be affected. BTW ALL of my patients have emotional issues > contributing to their health problems and the alleviation of pain > can go a > long way in bringing positive and lasting effects on deeper levels. > Kim Blankenship > > -- > ATTENTION: Protected by Federal Law! > The documents accompanying this transmission contain confidential health > care information that is legally privileged and intended for the below-named > individual or entity only. The recipient of this document is prohibited from > disclosing its contents and is required by law to destroy this information > once authorized fulfillment is complete. If you have received this > transmission in error, please contact sender immediately. > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 11, 2009 Report Share Posted February 11, 2009 Again a well done response from Dr. Chu. I was beginning to think I was a loner in the twighlight zone. Treating the channels does, indeed, treat both the root and the branches. Thanks, Don Snow DAOM, MPH : chusauli: Wed, 11 Feb 2009 10:44:41 -0800Re: Re: Tan/Tung/Chen Treating the channels treats the root and the branches. What nonsense tothink otherwise...Of the diagnosis systems here, which one is really acupuncture's?Zang FuShang Han Lun 6 channelWei, Qi, Ying, XueChannels and collaterals5 elementyin/yangTCM had to put Acupuncture and herbs together during the 1950's in CommunistChina. They do not diagnose the same. Acupuncturists need to palpate thechannels more and understand the flow of the collaterals to treat.Acupuncture classics like the Ling Shu and Nan Jing do not even mentionLiver Qi Stagnation or Spleen Yang Deficiency like modern TCM does.Ancients learned with an Acupuncturist or Herbalist and apprenticed tothem. They were two separate arts.Even today, when people from Taiwan speak to me and they know I am a ZhongYi, thay ask me if I also know Zhen Jiu. They have already assumed I knowherbology. That would imply even the common layman knows they were 2separate arts in the past. Its a pity TCM puts the two arts together, butyou got to start from somewhere.Best regards,Robert ChuOn Wed, Feb 11, 2009 at 10:06 AM, Benjamin Hawes, L.Ac. <bhawes wrote:>> Kim:>> Yes! I wonder why it's such a threatening concept that treating pain> itself helps to correct so many imbalances, or that the two are part of> the same process, and may be approached from either angle or both?> research certainly supports the pain/immune f(x) link, and the> stress/pain links, so no wonder acupuncture, which relieves pain AND> causes lasting autonomic changes ought to do so much. And treating the> channels is a pretty uncontroversial move - I mean, isn't that what most> of acupuncture's history consisted of? and can you do anything else> *but* " treat " a " channel " ?>> we need to be able to understand the strong " placebo " , i.e. nonspecific> response of acupuncture (which exists!), and then differentiate it from> any specific responses we are able to produce. Tan/Tung/Chen styles,> which produce remarkable instant results, with changes in ROM that are> often equally dramatic, with point-specific changes to spinal> subluxations, shoulder height, etc, would be a valuable research tool.> Because it would be easy to use wrong points vs. right points, because> of the quick feedback.>> But I don't get people who think that somehow this is not " real " relief> of pain, that somehow it is analgesic and not treating the cause, if the> results last for weeks, months, or forever. I mean, we aren't severing> nerves, so what is the mechanism other than actual healing of the lesions?>> Ben Hawes, LAc.>> Re: Physical Therapists doing " Dry needling " . How is this different> <> Chinese Medicine/message/32068;_ylc=X3\ oDMTJyNWNwZnVjBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE1BGdycElkAzk0OTU5NzcEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1MDYwODE0BG1zZ0\ lkAzMyMDY4BHNlYwNkbXNnBHNsawN2bXNnBHN0aW1lAzEyMzQyODE4NTc-> >>> Posted by: " Kim Blankenship " kuangguiyu <kuangguiyu%40gmail.com>> <kuangguiyu <kuangguiyu%40gmail.com>> ?Subject=%20Re%3A%20Physical%20Therapists%20doing%20%22Dry%20needling%22%2E%20Ho\ w%20is%20this%20different>> kuangguiyu <http://profiles./kuangguiyu>>> Mon Feb 9, 2009 6:35 pm (PST)>> Unless I've missed something vital along the way here, no one is> suggesting> that we should only treat pain and ignore deeper issues. The point I> tried> to make a few days ago - and which is still being somehow lost in the> shuffle here - is that Balance Method/Meridian-> style treatments DON'T JUST> ADDRESS PAIN. One can successfully treat internal medicine issues with> these modalities and balance in the physical, mental/emotional and> spiritual> levels can be affected. BTW ALL of my patients have emotional issues> contributing to their health problems and the alleviation of pain> can go a> long way in bringing positive and lasting effects on deeper levels.> Kim Blankenship>> --> ATTENTION: Protected by Federal Law!> The documents accompanying this transmission contain confidential health> care information that is legally privileged and intended for the below-named> individual or entity only. The recipient of this document is prohibited from> disclosing its contents and is required by law to destroy this information> once authorized fulfillment is complete. If you have received this> transmission in error, please contact sender immediately.>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]>> >-- Robert Chu, PhD, L.Ac. QMEchusauli my webpages at: www.chusaulei.com[Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 11, 2009 Report Share Posted February 11, 2009 Channel acupuncture MAY treat both roots and branches. It will depend on the case, the needs of the patient, how acute or chronic the disease is. Sometimes, herbal medicine is necessary, sometimes surgery, sometimes drugs, sometimes counceling, sometimes diet, sometimes combinations of therapeutics. Maximum flexibility is necessary to answer this question. Relief of pain is a huge question, and there are no simple, pat answers. Some pain is chronic, some acute, some more emotionally based, some injury-based. We have to take each case as it comes, and try to provide the best treatment possible by listening, diagnosing accurately, then acting accordingly. On Feb 11, 2009, at 10:48 AM, Donald Snow wrote: > > Again a well done response from Dr. Chu. I was beginning to think I > was a loner in the twighlight zone. Treating the channels does, > indeed, treat both the root and the branches. > > Thanks, > > Don Snow DAOM, MPH > > : chusauli > : Wed, 11 Feb 2009 10:44:41 -0800Re: Re: Tan/Tung/Chen > > Treating the channels treats the root and the branches. What > nonsense tothink otherwise...Of the diagnosis systems here, which > one is really acupuncture's?Zang FuShang Han Lun 6 channelWei, Qi, > Ying, XueChannels and collaterals5 elementyin/yangTCM had to put > Acupuncture and herbs together during the 1950's in CommunistChina. > They do not diagnose the same. Acupuncturists need to palpate > thechannels more and understand the flow of the collaterals to > treat.Acupuncture classics like the Ling Shu and Nan Jing do not > even mentionLiver Qi Stagnation or Spleen Yang Deficiency like > modern TCM does.Ancients learned with an Acupuncturist or Herbalist > and apprenticed tothem. They were two separate arts.Even today, when > people from Taiwan speak to me and they know I am a ZhongYi, thay > ask me if I also know Zhen Jiu. They have already assumed I > knowherbology. That would imply even the common layman knows they > were 2separate arts in the past. Its a pity TCM puts the two arts > together, butyou got to start from somewhere.Best regards,Robert > ChuOn Wed, Feb 11, 2009 at 10:06 AM, Benjamin Hawes, L.Ac. <bhawes > > wrote:>> Kim:>> Yes! I wonder why it's such a threatening concept > that treating pain> itself helps to correct so many imbalances, or > that the two are part of> the same process, and may be approached > from either angle or both?> research certainly supports the pain/ > immune f(x) link, and the> stress/pain links, so no wonder > acupuncture, which relieves pain AND> causes lasting autonomic > changes ought to do so much. And treating the> channels is a pretty > uncontroversial move - I mean, isn't that what most> of > acupuncture's history consisted of? and can you do anything else> > *but* " treat " a " channel " ?>> we need to be able to understand the > strong " placebo " , i.e. nonspecific> response of acupuncture (which > exists!), and then differentiate it from> any specific responses we > are able to produce. Tan/Tung/Chen styles,> which produce remarkable > instant results, with changes in ROM that are> often equally > dramatic, with point-specific changes to spinal> subluxations, > shoulder height, etc, would be a valuable research tool.> Because it > would be easy to use wrong points vs. right points, because> of the > quick feedback.>> But I don't get people who think that somehow this > is not " real " relief> of pain, that somehow it is analgesic and not > treating the cause, if the> results last for weeks, months, or > forever. I mean, we aren't severing> nerves, so what is the > mechanism other than actual healing of the lesions?>> Ben Hawes, > LAc.>> Re: Physical Therapists doing " Dry needling " . How is this > different> <> Chinese Medicine/message/32068;_ylc=X3\ oDMTJyNWNwZnVjBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE1BGdycElkAzk0OTU5NzcEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1MDYwODE0BG1zZ0\ lkAzMyMDY4BHNlYwNkbXNnBHNsawN2bXNnBHN0aW1lAzEyMzQyODE4NTc- > > >>> Posted by: " Kim Blankenship " kuangguiyu <kuangguiyu > %40gmail.com>> <kuangguiyu <kuangguiyu > %40gmail.com>> ?Subject=%20Re%3A%20Physical%20Therapists%20doing > %20%22Dry%20needling%22%2E%20How%20is%20this%20different>> > kuangguiyu <http://profiles./kuangguiyu>>> Mon Feb 9, 2009 > 6:35 pm (PST)>> Unless I've missed something vital along the way > here, no one is> suggesting> that we should only treat pain and > ignore deeper issues. The point I> tried> to make a few days ago - > and which is still being somehow lost in the> shuffle here - is that > Balance Method/Meridian-> style treatments DON'T JUST> ADDRESS PAIN. > One can successfully treat internal medicine issues with> these > modalities and balance in the physical, mental/emotional and> > spiritual> levels can be affected. BTW ALL of my patients have > emotional issues> contributing to their health problems and the > alleviation of pain> can go a> long way in bringing positive and > lasting effects on deeper levels.> Kim Blankenship>> --> ATTENTION: > Protected by Federal Law!> The documents accompanying this > transmission contain confidential health> care information that is > legally privileged and intended for the below-named> individual or > entity only. The recipient of this document is prohibited from> > disclosing its contents and is required by law to destroy this > information> once authorized fulfillment is complete. If you have > received this> transmission in error, please contact sender > immediately.>> [Non-text portions of this message have been > removed]>> >-- Robert Chu, PhD, L.Ac. QMEchusauli my > webpages at: www.chusaulei.com[Non-text portions of this message > have been removed] > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 11, 2009 Report Share Posted February 11, 2009 No one is disputing that. We should also know that herbs effectiveness is through entering the channels. Many modern diseases stem from lifestyle. We need to educate patients in wellness in diet and nutrition, exercise, proper emotional makeup, reduction of stress, proper sleep, avoid pulling genetic triggers, proper fashion, avoiding trauma, eating and dressing according to the seasons. Herbs and acupuncture go hand in hand, as does the lifestyle counseling. But I think for this discussion, many people are mistakenly incorrect thinking the Tan/Tung/Chen systems are only for symptomatic relief. Actually Tan/Tung/Chen systems are classical acupuncture of using channels and collaterals. That is the way acupuncture needs to be done. In my classes, I ask - if a patient presents with a Wind Heat common cold - what channels do we use for acupuncture? a) Lung b) LI c) UB d) H You should see the answers! But the simplest is best. On Wed, Feb 11, 2009 at 12:05 PM, <zrosenbewrote: > Channel acupuncture MAY treat both roots and branches. It will depend > on the case, the needs of the patient, how acute or chronic the > disease is. Sometimes, herbal medicine is necessary, sometimes > surgery, sometimes drugs, sometimes counceling, sometimes diet, > sometimes combinations of therapeutics. Maximum flexibility is > necessary to answer this question. > > Relief of pain is a huge question, and there are no simple, pat > answers. Some pain is chronic, some acute, some more emotionally > based, some injury-based. We have to take each case as it comes, and > try to provide the best treatment possible by listening, diagnosing > accurately, then acting accordingly. > > > > > > On Feb 11, 2009, at 10:48 AM, Donald Snow wrote: > > > > > Again a well done response from Dr. Chu. I was beginning to think I > > was a loner in the twighlight zone. Treating the channels does, > > indeed, treat both the root and the branches. > > > > Thanks, > > > > Don Snow DAOM, MPH > > > > To: Chinese Medicine<Chinese Medicine%40\ From>: > chusauli <chusauli%40gmail.comDate> > > : Wed, 11 Feb 2009 10:44:41 -0800Re: Re: Tan/Tung/Chen > > > > Treating the channels treats the root and the branches. What > > nonsense tothink otherwise...Of the diagnosis systems here, which > > one is really acupuncture's?Zang FuShang Han Lun 6 channelWei, Qi, > > Ying, XueChannels and collaterals5 elementyin/yangTCM had to put > > Acupuncture and herbs together during the 1950's in CommunistChina. > > They do not diagnose the same. Acupuncturists need to palpate > > thechannels more and understand the flow of the collaterals to > > treat.Acupuncture classics like the Ling Shu and Nan Jing do not > > even mentionLiver Qi Stagnation or Spleen Yang Deficiency like > > modern TCM does.Ancients learned with an Acupuncturist or Herbalist > > and apprenticed tothem. They were two separate arts.Even today, when > > people from Taiwan speak to me and they know I am a ZhongYi, thay > > ask me if I also know Zhen Jiu. They have already assumed I > > knowherbology. That would imply even the common layman knows they > > were 2separate arts in the past. Its a pity TCM puts the two arts > > together, butyou got to start from somewhere.Best regards,Robert > > ChuOn Wed, Feb 11, 2009 at 10:06 AM, Benjamin Hawes, L.Ac. < > bhawes <bhawes%40cortezacupuncture.com> > > > wrote:>> Kim:>> Yes! I wonder why it's such a threatening concept > > that treating pain> itself helps to correct so many imbalances, or > > that the two are part of> the same process, and may be approached > > from either angle or both?> research certainly supports the pain/ > > immune f(x) link, and the> stress/pain links, so no wonder > > acupuncture, which relieves pain AND> causes lasting autonomic > > changes ought to do so much. And treating the> channels is a pretty > > uncontroversial move - I mean, isn't that what most> of > > acupuncture's history consisted of? and can you do anything else> > > *but* " treat " a " channel " ?>> we need to be able to understand the > > strong " placebo " , i.e. nonspecific> response of acupuncture (which > > exists!), and then differentiate it from> any specific responses we > > are able to produce. Tan/Tung/Chen styles,> which produce remarkable > > instant results, with changes in ROM that are> often equally > > dramatic, with point-specific changes to spinal> subluxations, > > shoulder height, etc, would be a valuable research tool.> Because it > > would be easy to use wrong points vs. right points, because> of the > > quick feedback.>> But I don't get people who think that somehow this > > is not " real " relief> of pain, that somehow it is analgesic and not > > treating the cause, if the> results last for weeks, months, or > > forever. I mean, we aren't severing> nerves, so what is the > > mechanism other than actual healing of the lesions?>> Ben Hawes, > > LAc.>> Re: Physical Therapists doing " Dry needling " . How is this > > different> <> > Chinese Medicine/message/32068;_ylc=X3\ oDMTJyNWNwZnVjBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE1BGdycElkAzk0OTU5NzcEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1MDYwODE0BG1zZ0\ lkAzMyMDY4BHNlYwNkbXNnBHNsawN2bXNnBHN0aW1lAzEyMzQyODE4NTc- > > > >>> Posted by: " Kim Blankenship " kuangguiyu<kuangguiyu%40gmail.com><kuangguiyu > > %40gmail.com>> <kuangguiyu <kuangguiyu%40gmail.com><kuangguiyu > > %40gmail.com>> ?Subject=%20Re%3A%20Physical%20Therapists%20doing > > %20%22Dry%20needling%22%2E%20How%20is%20this%20different>> > > kuangguiyu <http://profiles./kuangguiyu>>> Mon Feb 9, 2009 > > 6:35 pm (PST)>> Unless I've missed something vital along the way > > here, no one is> suggesting> that we should only treat pain and > > ignore deeper issues. The point I> tried> to make a few days ago - > > and which is still being somehow lost in the> shuffle here - is that > > Balance Method/Meridian-> style treatments DON'T JUST> ADDRESS PAIN. > > One can successfully treat internal medicine issues with> these > > modalities and balance in the physical, mental/emotional and> > > spiritual> levels can be affected. BTW ALL of my patients have > > emotional issues> contributing to their health problems and the > > alleviation of pain> can go a> long way in bringing positive and > > lasting effects on deeper levels.> Kim Blankenship>> --> ATTENTION: > > Protected by Federal Law!> The documents accompanying this > > transmission contain confidential health> care information that is > > legally privileged and intended for the below-named> individual or > > entity only. The recipient of this document is prohibited from> > > disclosing its contents and is required by law to destroy this > > information> once authorized fulfillment is complete. If you have > > received this> transmission in error, please contact sender > > immediately.>> [Non-text portions of this message have been > > removed]>> >-- Robert Chu, PhD, L.Ac. QMEchusauli<QMEchusauli%40gmail.comSee>my > > webpages at: www.chusaulei.com[Non-text portions of this message > > have been removed] > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You are posting as a guest. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.