Religion, Esoterica, Values

February 11, 2009

I have been following this thread re:pain relief, Tan style, etc with interest.

I am finding,

as is almost always the case, tremendous confusion, dare I say, laziness around

the use of

terminology. 'Religion', 'Esoterica' and 'Values' are entirely different terms.

First let me

say, I have been studying with Lonny J for 6 months now and not once have I

ever, EVER

heard any reference whatsoever to religion - so I have NO idea where Don S and

Benjamin

H get the idea Lonny is suggesting we implicate religion into out practice. Its

a crazy

notion. As for 'esoterica' - I hope people realise that all that term means is

'highly

specialised knowledge, understood by only a few'. So really, even the Ba Gua

system of

acupuncture taught by Tan is 'esoteric'. I think its important to be clear,

Lonny is ONLY

pointing to values - NOT to religion or esoterica. And there is simply NO way

to avoid it -

no matter how you choose to practice, you bring your values with you and into

your

practice. Its not possible NOT to. If I may offer a real clinical example to

perhaps bridge

between Lonny's points and the objections of Ben H and Don S . . . .consider a

patient who

comes to you with right shoulder pain. One approach is to just treat the

shoulder pain -

and If you use Tan style and it works with stunning effectiveness, one or two

treatments

and the pain is gone. You feel good. The patient feels good. Bills are paid.

You get

referrals. All is good. But lets say you also do some more digging, you look

at his tongue,

you take his pulse, you take his history, you palpate his body (if you practice

Japanese

style like I do) and its really very very clear to you that his shoulder pain is

intimately

connected with the fact his liver is enlarged, he is a heavy alcoholic, etc.

So, the first time

you saw him, you took away the pain. 6 months later, he develops the pain again

and

thinks, hey, I can go see Don Snow - he rocks, he takes my pain away. So he

comes back

and again, Don does his Tan style and in two treatments, the pain is gone. The

patient

has learned nothing, except that Don will always be there to take the pain away.

6 months

later - again. 6 months after that - again. Now, early on, Don was just being

a bloody

good acupuncturist - and relieving Buddy's pain - which is always an opportunity

for

Buddy to realise what life could be like if he faced his demons. And its

arguable that the

second and third times, perhaps its not yet time for Don to put the mirror up to

Buddy and

his ways. But at some point, at SOME point along the way, if nothing changes in

the Don-

Buddy relationship, Don is no longer a doctor - he has become a collusionary in

Buddy's

delusions and demise because after 5 or 6 visits, Buddy just has it very

ingrained that he

doesn't have to face anything, Don will take care of everything forever. In

truth, Don is

bringing a VERY clear value system to his practice whether he chooses to see it

or not.

And Lonny is pointing to a much higher and deeper level of practice where after

a few

visits, its time to get a little serious about discussing the root issues

underlying Buddy's

shoulder pain. This has nothing to do with religion, at all. It has everything

to do with

values, integrity, and depth of practice. We ALL bring our values to our

practice.

Daniel

February 11, 2009

Daniel,

You're right; it would serve all of us if people would use language

and words that refer to complex concepts in a more precise way.

Lonny himself is something of a provocateur in this regard; when I

read his posts I often feel he really enjoys that role. He throws

around his own esoteric references (orange meme, green meme) and

speaks his point of view in a way that often comes across as

arrogant. He is going to rectify someone else's soul? Really?

Perhaps the alcoholic patient is going to rectify HIS soul. And does

someone's soul really NEED to be rectified because they're eating

Doritos? The word 'rectify' after all, does carry a tone of moral

judgement, doesn't it?

We don't really know in the longer run what effect our contact with

our patients is going to have. I think we need to be very careful

that, in our unconscious arrogance, we are not really trying to turn

our patients into carbon copies of ourselves. If we practice with

kindness and compassion, perhaps the patient's heart will open.

RoseAnne, L.Ac., NYC

On Feb 10, 2009, at 11:17 PM, Daniel Schulman wrote:

> I have been following this thread re:pain relief, Tan style, etc

> with interest. I am finding,

> as is almost always the case, tremendous confusion, dare I say,

> laziness around the use of

> terminology. 'Religion', 'Esoterica' and 'Values' are entirely

> different terms. First let me

> say, I have been studying with Lonny J for 6 months now and not

> once have I ever, EVER

> heard any reference whatsoever to religion - so I have NO idea

> where Don S and Benjamin

> H get the idea Lonny is suggesting we implicate religion into out

> practice. Its a crazy

> notion. As for 'esoterica' - I hope people realise that all that

> term means is 'highly

> specialised knowledge, understood by only a few'. So really, even

> the Ba Gua system of

> acupuncture taught by Tan is 'esoteric'. I think its important to

> be clear, Lonny is ONLY

> pointing to values - NOT to religion or esoterica. And there is

> simply NO way to avoid it -

> no matter how you choose to practice, you bring your values with

> you and into your

> practice. Its not possible NOT to. If I may offer a real clinical

> example to perhaps bridge

> between Lonny's points and the objections of Ben H and Don

> S . . . .consider a patient who

> comes to you with right shoulder pain. One approach is to just

> treat the shoulder pain -

> and If you use Tan style and it works with stunning effectiveness,

> one or two treatments

> and the pain is gone. You feel good. The patient feels good.

> Bills are paid. You get

> referrals. All is good. But lets say you also do some more

> digging, you look at his tongue,

> you take his pulse, you take his history, you palpate his body (if

> you practice Japanese

> style like I do) and its really very very clear to you that his

> shoulder pain is intimately

> connected with the fact his liver is enlarged, he is a heavy

> alcoholic, etc. So, the first time

> you saw him, you took away the pain. 6 months later, he develops

> the pain again and

> thinks, hey, I can go see Don Snow - he rocks, he takes my pain

> away. So he comes back

> and again, Don does his Tan style and in two treatments, the pain

> is gone. The patient

> has learned nothing, except that Don will always be there to take

> the pain away. 6 months

> later - again. 6 months after that - again. Now, early on, Don

> was just being a bloody

> good acupuncturist - and relieving Buddy's pain - which is always

> an opportunity for

> Buddy to realise what life could be like if he faced his demons.

> And its arguable that the

> second and third times, perhaps its not yet time for Don to put the

> mirror up to Buddy and

> his ways. But at some point, at SOME point along the way, if

> nothing changes in the Don-

> Buddy relationship, Don is no longer a doctor - he has become a

> collusionary in Buddy's

> delusions and demise because after 5 or 6 visits, Buddy just has it

> very ingrained that he

> doesn't have to face anything, Don will take care of everything

> forever. In truth, Don is

> bringing a VERY clear value system to his practice whether he

> chooses to see it or not.

> And Lonny is pointing to a much higher and deeper level of practice

> where after a few

> visits, its time to get a little serious about discussing the root

> issues underlying Buddy's

> shoulder pain. This has nothing to do with religion, at all. It

> has everything to do with

> values, integrity, and depth of practice. We ALL bring our values

> to our practice.

> Daniel

>

> ---

>

> Subscribe to the free online journal for TCM at

> Times http://www.chinesemedicinetimes.com

>

> Help build the world's largest online encyclopedia for Chinese

> medicine and acupuncture, click, http://

> www.chinesemedicinetimes.com/wiki/CMTpedia

>

> http://

> and adjust

> accordingly.

>

> Messages are the property of the author. Any duplication outside

> the group requires prior permission from the author.

>

> Please consider the environment and only print this message if

> absolutely necessary.

February 11, 2009

Hi Roseanne,

Well to be clear, I was speaking to the need to be precise with language and not

sloppy and lazy. Words like religion, esoteric and values have precise meanings

and should be used with precision. (Not so sure about 'woo woo' and 'foo

foo'!!)

I would agree that Lonny is a 'provocateur' - I have no problem with that. To

some degree, I suspect you or anyone else on this list has no problem with

provocative thought - I mean after all, we are all being provocative by

inserting Oriental Medicine (however we choose to practice it!) into a society

drenched in the modern medical model - what could be more provocative? And as

far as I have been able to tell, Lonny is just provoking our profession to get a

whole lot serious about some big gaping holes in how we practice.

I also can't imagine anyone on this list should have a problem with esoterica.

Again, by definition, if you practice Oriental Medicine (in any form, style or

context) in North America, YOU are basing your very livelihood in esoteric

things.

So we need to be honest, clear and forthright with the terms we use.

It seems the real crunch with all of this always comes down to matters of

judgment and compassion. In the present cultural context and time, most of us

here in North America have a real problem with the thought of being judgmental.

'Who am I to judge?' we all say. What Lonny is pointing to is the need to

really get over that one and move on. To say 'I judge nothing and noone' to me

is actually the 'woo woo' or 'foo foo' position. I mean, to offer a blunt

example - would you not consider the LRA thugs roaming the Congolese countryside

as I write this and raping women, forcing kids into a life of debauchery and

killing all the men - would you not consider them less morally developed than

you? I would. Now, I know some are so repulsed at the thought of being

judgmental about anything, they would actually respond to that with 'who am i to

judge?'. To me that is really 'woo woo' and morally reprehensible. I just

don't get that. Obviously, none of

our patients are LRA thugs - that was only to make a point. But many if not

most of our patients are engaged in some degree of contradiction between what

they know and how they are - and what Lonny and some of use are pointing to is

that a higher, deeper level of practice must ultimately engage with our patients

on that level.

As for compassion, I would suggest that is a poorly understood concept in this

culture. Most just equate that with unconditional comfort. Again, I would

argue that is 'woo woo' and in the end, often collusionary. I real healer is

going to offer an appropriate balance between that form of compassion and truth,

in the interests of moving things ahead for all concerned. It takes a lot of

courage and hard work on oneself as a practitioner to advance and mature that

kind of practice. Its not easy at all.

I just had a patient in yesterday - I have been seeing her for 3 years now - I

have, no question earned her trust. The acupuncture has helped a lot with a lot

of things. She was abused sexually at a very young age. She talks about it a

lot - and its clear, that non-resolution of that breech in her life IS the

entire hinge around which all her current stagnation (inability to advance)

rests. The time was right. She brought it up - I dove in - and through the

entire session, really engaged with her to forgive and move on - I won't go into

the details - it was a profound and intimate dialogue with a thoughtful,

deliberate and intentional balance of compassion and truth. And it was all in

the context of Oriental Medicine.

Who am I to judge. Well, after 10 years in practice and time studying with

Lonny, I have no problem at all saying, I am able to judge and engage my

patients in the full pursuit of all that healing means.

Respectfully

Daniel

Roseanne:

> You're right; it would serve all of us if people would

> use language

> and words that refer to complex concepts in a more precise

> way.

>

> Lonny himself is something of a provocateur in this regard;

> when I

> read his posts I often feel he really enjoys that role. He

> throws

> around his own esoteric references (orange meme, green

> meme) and

> speaks his point of view in a way that often comes across

> as

> arrogant. He is going to rectify someone else's soul?

> Really?

> Perhaps the alcoholic patient is going to rectify HIS soul.

> And does

> someone's soul really NEED to be rectified because

> they're eating

> Doritos? The word 'rectify' after all, does carry

> a tone of moral

> judgement, doesn't it?

>

> We don't really know in the longer run what effect our

> contact with

> our patients is going to have. I think we need to be very

> careful

> that, in our unconscious arrogance, we are not really

> trying to turn

> our patients into carbon copies of ourselves. If we

> practice with

> kindness and compassion, perhaps the patient's heart

> will open.

>

> RoseAnne, L.Ac., NYC

>

February 11, 2009

He throws

around his own esoteric references (orange meme, green meme)

Lonny: Not to anyone who is interested and has access to google.

" Orange meme " isn't any more esoteric than " Blood " or " qi " or " Gm7b5 " .

February 11, 2009

ee cummings said that " the godless are dull and the dull are damned " .

Everyone has a religion: "

1. a set of beliefs concerning the cause, nature, and purpose of the

universe, esp. when considered as the creation of a superhuman agency or

agencies, usually involving devotional and ritual observances, and often

containing a moral code governing the conduct of human affairs. 2. a

specific fundamental set of beliefs and practices generally agreed upon by a

number of persons or sects: the Christian religion; the Buddhist religion. "

I've thought about how much faith people have in their local sports teams (a

pagan way to go to church and commune with a higher force... communal

adrenalism) or get drunk on Saturday night in a Bacchanal ritual and then

atone for their sins 9 hours later, either at the footstep of a pew or at

the foot of a porcelain throne. It's often been said that money is a god.

There are those who drive 3 hours each way to enter a temple of flashing

lights and go through a ritual of blind faith (praying for jackpots) every

weekend. Most of life is a gamble, even renting tuition in order to become

a priest with power over life and death or yin and yang. I'm

surprised we aren't tearing each other apart. What's keeping it all

together? GOD, EGO, DNA, LoVE?

The whole spiral dynamics meme language is actually I think a way to bring

both sides of the brain together...

colors (right brain) and concepts (left brain).

It's just a tool, like our words, which are metaphors for objects,

references to other things, the finger pointing to the moon.

The moon is a hole in the sky. If you poke too hard, it might go away. [?]

K

On Wed, Feb 11, 2009 at 4:50 AM, RoseAnne Spradlin <ra6151 wrote:

> Daniel,

>

> You're right; it would serve all of us if people would use language

> and words that refer to complex concepts in a more precise way.

>

> Lonny himself is something of a provocateur in this regard; when I

> read his posts I often feel he really enjoys that role. He throws

> around his own esoteric references (orange meme, green meme) and

> speaks his point of view in a way that often comes across as

> arrogant. He is going to rectify someone else's soul? Really?

> Perhaps the alcoholic patient is going to rectify HIS soul. And does

> someone's soul really NEED to be rectified because they're eating

> Doritos? The word 'rectify' after all, does carry a tone of moral

> judgement, doesn't it?

>

> We don't really know in the longer run what effect our contact with

> our patients is going to have. I think we need to be very careful

> that, in our unconscious arrogance, we are not really trying to turn

> our patients into carbon copies of ourselves. If we practice with

> kindness and compassion, perhaps the patient's heart will open.

>

> RoseAnne, L.Ac., NYC

>

> On Feb 10, 2009, at 11:17 PM, Daniel Schulman wrote:

>

> > I have been following this thread re:pain relief, Tan style, etc

> > with interest. I am finding,

> > as is almost always the case, tremendous confusion, dare I say,

> > laziness around the use of

> > terminology. 'Religion', 'Esoterica' and 'Values' are entirely

> > different terms. First let me

> > say, I have been studying with Lonny J for 6 months now and not

> > once have I ever, EVER

> > heard any reference whatsoever to religion - so I have NO idea

> > where Don S and Benjamin

> > H get the idea Lonny is suggesting we implicate religion into out

> > practice. Its a crazy

> > notion. As for 'esoterica' - I hope people realise that all that

> > term means is 'highly

> > specialised knowledge, understood by only a few'. So really, even

> > the Ba Gua system of

> > acupuncture taught by Tan is 'esoteric'. I think its important to

> > be clear, Lonny is ONLY

> > pointing to values - NOT to religion or esoterica. And there is

> > simply NO way to avoid it -

> > no matter how you choose to practice, you bring your values with

> > you and into your

> > practice. Its not possible NOT to. If I may offer a real clinical

> > example to perhaps bridge

> > between Lonny's points and the objections of Ben H and Don

> > S . . . .consider a patient who

> > comes to you with right shoulder pain. One approach is to just

> > treat the shoulder pain -

> > and If you use Tan style and it works with stunning effectiveness,

> > one or two treatments

> > and the pain is gone. You feel good. The patient feels good.

> > Bills are paid. You get

> > referrals. All is good. But lets say you also do some more

> > digging, you look at his tongue,

> > you take his pulse, you take his history, you palpate his body (if

> > you practice Japanese

> > style like I do) and its really very very clear to you that his

> > shoulder pain is intimately

> > connected with the fact his liver is enlarged, he is a heavy

> > alcoholic, etc. So, the first time

> > you saw him, you took away the pain. 6 months later, he develops

> > the pain again and

> > thinks, hey, I can go see Don Snow - he rocks, he takes my pain

> > away. So he comes back

> > and again, Don does his Tan style and in two treatments, the pain

> > is gone. The patient

> > has learned nothing, except that Don will always be there to take

> > the pain away. 6 months

> > later - again. 6 months after that - again. Now, early on, Don

> > was just being a bloody

> > good acupuncturist - and relieving Buddy's pain - which is always

> > an opportunity for

> > Buddy to realise what life could be like if he faced his demons.

> > And its arguable that the

> > second and third times, perhaps its not yet time for Don to put the

> > mirror up to Buddy and

> > his ways. But at some point, at SOME point along the way, if

> > nothing changes in the Don-

> > Buddy relationship, Don is no longer a doctor - he has become a

> > collusionary in Buddy's

> > delusions and demise because after 5 or 6 visits, Buddy just has it

> > very ingrained that he

> > doesn't have to face anything, Don will take care of everything

> > forever. In truth, Don is

> > bringing a VERY clear value system to his practice whether he

> > chooses to see it or not.

> > And Lonny is pointing to a much higher and deeper level of practice

> > where after a few

> > visits, its time to get a little serious about discussing the root

> > issues underlying Buddy's

> > shoulder pain. This has nothing to do with religion, at all. It

> > has everything to do with

> > values, integrity, and depth of practice. We ALL bring our values

> > to our practice.

> > Daniel

> >

> > ---

> >

> > Subscribe to the free online journal for TCM at

> > Times http://www.chinesemedicinetimes.com

> >

> > Help build the world's largest online encyclopedia for Chinese

> > medicine and acupuncture, click, http://

> > www.chinesemedicinetimes.com/wiki/CMTpedia

> >

> > http://

> > and adjust

> > accordingly.

> >

> > Messages are the property of the author. Any duplication outside

> > the group requires prior permission from the author.

> >

> > Please consider the environment and only print this message if

> > absolutely necessary.

February 11, 2009

John: The whole spiral dynamics meme language is actually I think a

way to bring both sides of the brain together...

Lon: We can say that constitution denotes a certain tint imparted at

conception to one's filter. Whatever happens in life one will tend to

interpret, and embody that interpretation, according to the

associations of one's constitution.

Spiral Dynamics gives the complementary view of the tint imparted by

culture and experience. Whoever we were made at conception we will

tend to interpret what happens through values structures imparted to

us by culture.

Constitution gives the " internal " view (genetics/karma) and spiral

dynamics gives the " external " view.

The Daoists were clear the culture imparts conditioning. This is a

foundation of the entire Daoist perspective. But what the didn't know

2500 bce, is that culture evolves.

The constitutional view describes the individual in relationship to

his or her natural surroundings. The Spiral Dynamic view Describes the

individual in relationship to culture as a dynamic force. Spiral

dynamics, like CM, is a holistic, integral functional model that sees

the individual as part of a greater movement, process, and picture.

At this point in history culture is for most of us in the developed

world a more significant force than the weather as described by the 5E

cycle.

It's not that I think Spiral dynamics is the be all and end all, or

that every nuance of it is correct. After all, it's a newly emergent

science. But I do think that it's view as a functional framework for

understanding the evolution of consciousness as evidenced by vertical

development of value spheres is so important that one simply cannot

have a complete and up to date perspective on patients without

reference to its general principles.

February 11, 2009

Lonny,

I do think that we live in interesting times.

As the wild prophet Terence McKenna said that we heading towards a point of

nexus...

a singularity in time-space where the world will become integral like it or

not.

That point is coming soon. It's already here.

The internet and mass media has sped up the process immensely and

intensely.

We peer externally into the world-wide oracle web to find answers to life's

dilemmas.

If one hasn't read Ken Wilber's work all of this might sound " cultish " .

TCM is a cult, which derives much of it's success on that fact.

My question is how can five elements personality-color typing be labeled a

" science " ,

while spiral dynamics value system-color typing be labeled a " religion " ?

K

On Wed, Feb 11, 2009 at 8:07 AM, sppdestiny <Revolution wrote:

> John: The whole spiral dynamics meme language is actually I think a

>

> way to bring both sides of the brain together...

>

> Lon: We can say that constitution denotes a certain tint imparted at

> conception to one's filter. Whatever happens in life one will tend to

> interpret, and embody that interpretation, according to the

> associations of one's constitution.

>

> Spiral Dynamics gives the complementary view of the tint imparted by

> culture and experience. Whoever we were made at conception we will

> tend to interpret what happens through values structures imparted to

> us by culture.

>

> Constitution gives the " internal " view (genetics/karma) and spiral

> dynamics gives the " external " view.

>

> The Daoists were clear the culture imparts conditioning. This is a

> foundation of the entire Daoist perspective. But what the didn't know

> 2500 bce, is that culture evolves.

>

> The constitutional view describes the individual in relationship to

> his or her natural surroundings. The Spiral Dynamic view Describes the

> individual in relationship to culture as a dynamic force. Spiral

> dynamics, like CM, is a holistic, integral functional model that sees

> the individual as part of a greater movement, process, and picture.

>

> At this point in history culture is for most of us in the developed

> world a more significant force than the weather as described by the 5E

> cycle.

>

> It's not that I think Spiral dynamics is the be all and end all, or

> that every nuance of it is correct. After all, it's a newly emergent

> science. But I do think that it's view as a functional framework for

> understanding the evolution of consciousness as evidenced by vertical

> development of value spheres is so important that one simply cannot

> have a complete and up to date perspective on patients without

> reference to its general principles.

>

--

www.tcmreview.com

The Four Reliances:

Do not rely upon the individual, but rely upon the teaching.

As far as teachings go, do not rely upon the words alone, but rely upon the

meaning that underlies them.

Regarding the meaning, do not rely upon the provisional meaning alone, but

rely upon the definitive meaning.

And regarding the definitive meaning, do not rely upon ordinary

consciousness, but rely upon wisdom awareness.

February 11, 2009

My question is how can five elements personality-color typing be labeled a

" science " ,

while spiral dynamics value system-color typing be labeled a " religion " ?

Lonny: We know that the postmodern values are " you have your truth, I

have my truth, an nobody knows better than me! There is no such thing

as hierarchy and any philosophy proposing the idea that anything that

could be higher than where I am right now is a religion. "

People consider the discussion of " values " to be " religious " , and call

discussing the " green meme " , " esoteric " , even though they are happy to

discuss qi or the bagua as if they were talking about a coffee table.

As soon as the implication is made that there could possibly be a

higher value structure than whatever values a person happens to have

in that moment the cry of " arrogance " is raised.

What a crazy world we live in when compassion is confused with

" unconditional love " and " non-judgment " and truth is considered to

always be relative.

February 11, 2009

Lonny,

How do you reconcile that spiral dynamics itself is an intellectual

model, paradigm or construct. It itself is assuming a value system

based on what?

From a pragmatic point of view, truth is less important than value.

For example, a square wheel is not useful. It doesn't work. The value

of a square wheel is less than the value of a round one simply by the

nature of what is so and what one is trying to do. I suppose the

absolute here is simply the reality of what is so, the Truth.

Intellectually we can only approximate this however and where arrogance

becomes a problem is when we don't recognize that our intellectual

understanding of this Truth is only an approximation based on our quite

limited experience and knowledge.

I agree with you that some approximations are more useful / accurate

than others and thus are more valuable. The test of this isn't an

intellectual debate but results in the world. If my thinking is like a

square wheel then the most compassionate thing someone can do is show me

how much better a round wheel is.

Chris Vedeler

sppdestiny wrote:

>

> My question is how can five elements personality-color typing be labeled a

> " science " ,

> while spiral dynamics value system-color typing be labeled a " religion " ?

>

> Lonny: We know that the postmodern values are " you have your truth, I

> have my truth, an nobody knows better than me! There is no such thing

> as hierarchy and any philosophy proposing the idea that anything that

> could be higher than where I am right now is a religion. "

>

> People consider the discussion of " values " to be " religious " , and call

> discussing the " green meme " , " esoteric " , even though they are happy to

> discuss qi or the bagua as if they were talking about a coffee table.

>

> As soon as the implication is made that there could possibly be a

> higher value structure than whatever values a person happens to have

> in that moment the cry of " arrogance " is raised.

>

> What a crazy world we live in when compassion is confused with

> " unconditional love " and " non-judgment " and truth is considered to

> always be relative.

>

> ------

>

> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com

> Version: 8.0.233 / Virus Database: 270.10.20/1944 - Release 02/10/09

17:44:00

>

February 11, 2009

Hi Lonny and all:

--Lonny-

The Daoists were clear the culture imparts conditioning. This is a

foundation of the entire Daoist perspective. But what the didn't know

2500 bce, is that culture evolves.

---

I've asked you to reference this point of view several times, and you've never

spoken up. Please explain how it is that the Taoists, of all people, didn't

understand the dynamics of change...and how about this constant reference to

what the taoists did or didn't know in 2500 bc? What about the daoists of today?

You don't know that we're here?

Thanks.

--Lonny-

At this point in history culture is for most of us in the developed

world a more significant force than the weather as described by the 5E

cycle.

---

That's really strange, Lonny. The 5-element cycle describes real weather (and

its interaction with the land, water and organism). As I have seen it, the

planet's cycles of seasonal change exert a massive, permeating force that

defines who we are and what we do. Prairie cities are farming cities, mining

towns are, well...port cities tend to be centers of commerce and money because

of the facility that water brings to the movement of goods and services, and so

on.

Because I live in an area where there is a fairly strong winter for half the

year, my whole life is affected by that fact - apparently you don't realise how

the roads, highways and train lines are affected by snowfall, and how everyone

changes their behaviour to account for the change in weather. The heating bill

for many people forces them to make minor to moderate adjustments of lifestyle

(which, again, are moderate in size but total in their imperative).

The 5 element statement that in the winter everything slows down and goes deep,

while in the summer everything speeds up and externalises is an exact

description of what happens here, in spite of our modernity and technology.

As one clinical example, people who do not follow the season in terms of their

diet, have a host of predictable problems that can affect their lives quite

severely (as I think we all know). This list goes on as well, from bi syndromes

to " seasonal affective disorder " .

If we go to the middle picture (man between heaven and earth ( " Culture " )), we

can see that the culture here is heavily influenced by the weather. Our winter

culture is very different from our summer culture. There are people who live for

certain seasons (I have one friend who lives for ice-fishing, and another who

lives for hockey), and similar activities (camping) attract completely different

sets of people depending on the seasons (winter versus summer).

If we move to the upwards transitional state (man interacting with heaven), we

can see that our 1. extraction of resources and 2. pollution are two major

things that seriously affect the enironment. If this trend of air pollution

continues, for example, we will affect (hopefully have not already irreversibly

affected) the weather in such a way that it will affect us /back/ in ways that

are dangerous for human civilisation as a whole. We depend on the weather to

have a certain stability and pattern to it so that we grow our food in the

places where the weather and the land have SHOWN us it is good to grow. If and

when the weather pattern changes, huge sources of food for the world (eg central

plains in China) are likely to experience a drought the likes we've not seen

before - droughts that will not be survivable for perhaps 1/4 to a 1/3 of the

world's population.

It is important to remember that we do not CONTROL the weather, and therefore

culture is not more important than weather, but rather we exert an influence

based on our population and the consistency of our behaviour. Then our karma

comes back to us. Culture does not supercede weather but rather must survive its

own karma within weather's larger system. For god's sake, weather includes the

SUN!

Wherever I go, it is obvious to me that people are defined by their

environment. Only a certain proportion, however, realise this clearly. Some, of

course, would like to deny it.

It really seems to me that you learned your daoism from a book, Lonny. You are

not a representative of the living traditions. Could we get a clear statement on

this point from you?

Hugo

________________________________

Hugo Ramiro

http://middlemedicine.wordpress.com

http://www.chinesemedicaltherapies.org

February 11, 2009

Hi Daniel and all:

--Daniel-

I have been studying with Lonny J for 6 months now and not once have I ever,

EVER

heard any reference whatsoever to religion - so I have NO idea where Don S and

Benjamin

H get the idea Lonny is suggesting we implicate religion into out practice. Its

a crazy

notion.

---

One doesn't need to ever say " religion " in order to teach it. In any case, one

of the things I understood Benjamin to refer to what this spiral dynamics thing.

I believe he sadi that if you can't test it then it is religion. Which is like

saying that if the system has an internal process of refutation (ie an external

observer is not allowed to question it) then it is religion - a system based on

faith and someone's authority. In fact, these are the criticisms that have been

levelled at spiral dynamics - there is a systematic view within the sd system

that a few people will be authoritative enough to be able to make the best

decisions FOR other people ( " the rest of us " ). I hope I don't have to explain

the problem with that.

I also don't know if people on this forum know that spiral dynamics was just

another one of these systems created by a psychologist out of her psychological

interpretation of stuff FOR business management. There's also a ridiculous, and

I have to say, very colonialist, way of looking at history through the spiral

dynamics system. This particular aspect has been criticised very harshly because

ALL evidence stands against it. Here it is:

Beige

Archaic-instinctiveâ€”survivalistic/automatic/reflexological

* From 1000,000 bc on

* " Express self to meet imperative physiological needs through instincts of

Homo sapiens. "

Purple

Animistic-tribalistic magical-animalistic Tribal order

* From 50,000 bc on

* " Sacrifice to the ways of the elders and customs as one subsumed in group. "

Red

Egocentric-exploitive power gods/dominionist

* From 7000 BC on

* " Express self (impulsively) for what self desires without guilt and to avoid

shame. "

Blue

Absolutistic-obedience mythic orderâ€”purposeful/authoritarian

* From 3000 BC on

* " Sacrifice self for reward to come through obedience to rightful authority in

purposeful Way. "

Orange

Multiplistic-achievist scientific/strategic

* From 1000 AD on (as early as 600 AD according to Graves and Calhoun)

* " Express self (calculatedly) to reach goals and objectives without rousing

the ire of important others. "

Green

Relativistic-personalistic - communitarian/egalitarian

* From 1850 AD on (surged in early 20th century)

* " Sacrifice self interest now in order to gain acceptance and group harmony. "

What I find profoundly funny is that this system (not the above timeline, which

is worse than laughable), has a certain elegance to it, and that poor saps are

going to fall head over heels for it because " it explains everything " (no

joke, it's the byline of the system), when, in actuality, many psychological

theories have a tremendous elegance and insight into the human and cultural

process. This system seems impressive to those unschooled in psychology and

therefore simply unaware of the immensely subtle systematic works of the

different schools of psychology. Schools from which this system is (badly)

patched together.

It is also important to note that spiral dynamic itself is fragmented into

different schools, some of which (like Wilber's) are based too much on one

particular person's work. Not all of these schools agree with each other.

If you find some of the founder's writings, you'll see that her system is a

reframing (for business management) of psychology 101.

Oh yeah, and I think you can see that Taoism is like a red or a blue, and

christianity is an orange.

Hugo

________________________________

Hugo Ramiro

http://middlemedicine.wordpress.com

http://www.chinesemedicaltherapies.org

February 11, 2009

Daniel,

You make a very important point here. I'd like to reframe your

example to say that when treating shoulder pain, the context, quality,

depth and substance of it is very important in determining one's

clinical results. J.R. Worsley used to say that we should " not see

our patient as they are now, but how they will be in the future " . In

other words, we need to always look forward and backwards from the

present moment. Back to see the etiology, the bing yin/disease

causative factors and how they led to the present condition, forward

to see prognosis. Every treatment has more than a local effect, it

sends ripples off into the future. So each acupuncture needle or moxa

we give today will have a longer term effect that may manifest weeks,

months, years from now, and we need to realize that. You are right,

our responsibility is very great.

We do not need look anywhere else but within the Chinese medical

tradition to find guidance on this (medical ethics). Sun Si-miao's

medical ethics, the works of Xu Da-cun (Paul Unschuld has translated

both), the Nei Jing corpus.

My one criticism of your post would be not to personalize your

case by using the name of a practitioner (Don in this case), as even

though it is hypothetical, readers will think of the case as if it

were real.

On Feb 10, 2009, at 8:17 PM, Daniel Schulman wrote:

> I have been following this thread re:pain relief, Tan style, etc

> with interest. I am finding,

> as is almost always the case, tremendous confusion, dare I say,

> laziness around the use of

> terminology. 'Religion', 'Esoterica' and 'Values' are entirely

> different terms. First let me

> say, I have been studying with Lonny J for 6 months now and not once

> have I ever, EVER

> heard any reference whatsoever to religion - so I have NO idea where

> Don S and Benjamin

> H get the idea Lonny is suggesting we implicate religion into out

> practice. Its a crazy

> notion. As for 'esoterica' - I hope people realise that all that

> term means is 'highly

> specialised knowledge, understood by only a few'. So really, even

> the Ba Gua system of

> acupuncture taught by Tan is 'esoteric'. I think its important to be

> clear, Lonny is ONLY

> pointing to values - NOT to religion or esoterica. And there is

> simply NO way to avoid it -

> no matter how you choose to practice, you bring your values with you

> and into your

> practice. Its not possible NOT to. If I may offer a real clinical

> example to perhaps bridge

> between Lonny's points and the objections of Ben H and Don

> S . . . .consider a patient who

> comes to you with right shoulder pain. One approach is to just treat

> the shoulder pain -

> and If you use Tan style and it works with stunning effectiveness,

> one or two treatments

> and the pain is gone. You feel good. The patient feels good. Bills

> are paid. You get

> referrals. All is good. But lets say you also do some more digging,

> you look at his tongue,

> you take his pulse, you take his history, you palpate his body (if

> you practice Japanese

> style like I do) and its really very very clear to you that his

> shoulder pain is intimately

> connected with the fact his liver is enlarged, he is a heavy

> alcoholic, etc. So, the first time

> you saw him, you took away the pain. 6 months later, he develops the

> pain again and

> thinks, hey, I can go see Don Snow - he rocks, he takes my pain

> away. So he comes back

> and again, Don does his Tan style and in two treatments, the pain is

> gone. The patient

> has learned nothing, except that Don will always be there to take

> the pain away. 6 months

> later - again. 6 months after that - again. Now, early on, Don was

> just being a bloody

> good acupuncturist - and relieving Buddy's pain - which is always an

> opportunity for

> Buddy to realise what life could be like if he faced his demons. And

> its arguable that the

> second and third times, perhaps its not yet time for Don to put the

> mirror up to Buddy and

> his ways. But at some point, at SOME point along the way, if nothing

> changes in the Don-

> Buddy relationship, Don is no longer a doctor - he has become a

> collusionary in Buddy's

> delusions and demise because after 5 or 6 visits, Buddy just has it

> very ingrained that he

> doesn't have to face anything, Don will take care of everything

> forever. In truth, Don is

> bringing a VERY clear value system to his practice whether he

> chooses to see it or not.

> And Lonny is pointing to a much higher and deeper level of practice

> where after a few

> visits, its time to get a little serious about discussing the root

> issues underlying Buddy's

> shoulder pain. This has nothing to do with religion, at all. It has

> everything to do with

> values, integrity, and depth of practice. We ALL bring our values to

> our practice.

> Daniel

>

Chair, Department of Herbal Medicine

Pacific College of Oriental Medicine

San Diego, Ca. 92122

February 11, 2009

point of clarification - Clare Graves, originator of Spiral Dynamics

is (was) male.

-RA

On Feb 11, 2009, at 2:54 PM, Hugo Ramiro wrote:

> Hi Daniel and all:

>

> --Daniel-

> I have been studying with Lonny J for 6 months now and not once

> have I ever, EVER

> heard any reference whatsoever to religion - so I have NO idea

> where Don S and Benjamin

> H get the idea Lonny is suggesting we implicate religion into out

> practice. Its a crazy

> notion.

> ---

>

> One doesn't need to ever say " religion " in order to teach it. In

> any case, one of the things I understood Benjamin to refer to what

> this spiral dynamics thing. I believe he sadi that if you can't

> test it then it is religion. Which is like saying that if the

> system has an internal process of refutation (ie an external

> observer is not allowed to question it) then it is religion - a

> system based on faith and someone's authority. In fact, these are

> the criticisms that have been levelled at spiral dynamics - there

> is a systematic view within the sd system that a few people will be

> authoritative enough to be able to make the best decisions FOR

> other people ( " the rest of us " ). I hope I don't have to explain the

> problem with that.

>

> I also don't know if people on this forum know that spiral

> dynamics was just another one of these systems created by a

> psychologist out of her psychological interpretation of stuff FOR

> business management. There's also a ridiculous, and I have to say,

> very colonialist, way of looking at history through the spiral

> dynamics system. This particular aspect has been criticised very

> harshly because ALL evidence stands against it. Here it is:

>

> Beige

> Archaic-instinctive—survivalistic/automatic/reflexological

> * From 1000,000 bc on

>

> * " Express self to meet imperative physiological needs through

> instincts of Homo sapiens. "

> Purple

> Animistic-tribalistic magical-animalistic Tribal order

> * From 50,000 bc on

> * " Sacrifice to the ways of the elders and customs as one

> subsumed in group. "

> Red

> Egocentric-exploitive power gods/dominionist

> * From 7000 BC on

> * " Express self (impulsively) for what self desires without

> guilt and to avoid shame. "

> Blue

> Absolutistic-obedience mythic order—purposeful/authoritarian

>

> * From 3000 BC on

> * " Sacrifice self for reward to come through obedience to

> rightful authority in purposeful Way. "

> Orange

> Multiplistic-achievist scientific/strategic

> * From 1000 AD on (as early as 600 AD according to Graves and

> Calhoun)

> * " Express self (calculatedly) to reach goals and objectives

> without rousing the ire of important others. "

> Green

> Relativistic-personalistic - communitarian/egalitarian

> * From 1850 AD on (surged in early 20th century)

> * " Sacrifice self interest now in order to gain acceptance and

> group harmony. "

> What I find profoundly funny is that this system (not the above

> timeline, which is worse than laughable), has a certain elegance to

> it, and that poor saps are going to fall head over heels for it

> because " it explains everything " (no joke, it's the byline of

> the system), when, in actuality, many psychological theories have a

> tremendous elegance and insight into the human and cultural

> process. This system seems impressive to those unschooled in

> psychology and therefore simply unaware of the immensely subtle

> systematic works of the different schools of psychology. Schools

> from which this system is (badly) patched together.

>

> It is also important to note that spiral dynamic itself is

> fragmented into different schools, some of which (like Wilber's)

> are based too much on one particular person's work. Not all of

> these schools agree with each other.

>

> If you find some of the founder's writings, you'll see that her

> system is a reframing (for business management) of psychology 101.

>

> Oh yeah, and I think you can see that Taoism is like a red or a

> blue, and christianity is an orange.

>

> Hugo

>

> ________________________________

> Hugo Ramiro

> http://middlemedicine.wordpress.com

> http://www.chinesemedicaltherapies.org

>

February 11, 2009

RoseAnne -

I believe you are right about the judgment implicit in many of the posts

here - starting with the inaccurate slams against T/C/T styles of

acupuncture. It was that tone of moral high-handedness that punched my

buttons initially.

I have been fortunate enough to spend some time in the company of truly

enlightened people. They have no insecurities and therefore no need for

color-coded hierarchical THEORIES of any sort. Their every act is one of

teaching through non-judgmental compassion. And Lonny, I'm not implying

that compassion is the same thing as unconditional love - it's not - or

confusing non-judgment and truth.

Take care -

Kim

On Wed, Feb 11, 2009 at 5:50 AM, RoseAnne Spradlin <ra6151 wrote: