Tan / Tung, and the soul of medicine

[Guest guest]

Z'ev:

Yes, of course. My objection is re treating pain and ignoring pain

elimination in favor of " root " treatment. If you treat the pain with

acupuncture, and the pain goes away for good, then you have treated the

cause of the pain. Period. But you should make sure that you are

reducing the pain starting from the first treatment instead of delaying

or insisting on treating some esoteric " root " instead. To do otherwise

is irresponsible, especially since, UNLIKE physical therapists, we can

change pain instantly in most cases, and then with some repetition make

that change lasting.

 

Of course, different techniques handle different pathologies more or

less efficiently and completely as I have previously stated; treating

meridian pain points works best for blood and qi stagnation-caused pain,

which is the primary cause of pain in most cases. Of course, if there is

" spleen qi vacuity " then generally results will be less complete until

the person loses weight, gets stronger, and eats better and also they

can be assisted by using " constitutional " points like ST36 (maybe),

herbs (maybe), etc. Given the incidence of obesity in the US, I would

say very few people are capable of making those lifestyle changes

however. I don't even try - I tell them their weight will make things

more difficult, and that exercise and refraining from processed foods

will make them have less pain in the long run, but my primary goal is to

treat what I can for the person who is right there in front of me, as

they are. That is compassion. And if there is severe blood stasis, local

needling can often break it up more efficiently than distally. But in

those cases, surgery might be necessary, too, or it may be too late, as

in the elderly, to change the underlying causes in any permanent way

(semi-permanent, anyway, given our mortal lot), in which case our

medicine is palliative.

 

But I cannot agree in any way with Lonny Jarrett's assertion that

somehow I am not " evolved " along some religious framework because I

eliminate pain instead of some occult change in the patient's " qi " ,

constitution, soul, aura, spaghetti monster, pink elephant, or whatever.

Sorry, but that is the realm of religion and faith healing, and that on

that playing field Lonny, as earnest as he may be, is surrounded by

hucksters and lunatics. If you can't measure outcomes, and don't

acknowledge empirical data, you are practicing religion. Sorry.

 

Ben Hawes, L.Ac.

 

 

Re: Physical Therapists doing " Dry needling " . How is this

different

<Chinese Medicine/message/32051;_ylc=X\

3oDMTJyczFjOGc4BF9TAzk3MzU5NzE1BGdycElkAzk0OTU5NzcEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1MDYwODE0BG1zZ\

0lkAzMyMDUxBHNlYwNkbXNnBHNsawN2bXNnBHN0aW1lAzEyMzQyMDMxOTQ->

 

 

 

Posted by: " " zrosenbe

<zrosenbe?Subject=%20Re%3A%20Physical%20Therapists%20doing%20%\

22Dry%20needling%22%2E%20How%20is%20this%20different>

zrosenberg2001 <http://profiles./zrosenberg2001>

 

 

Mon Feb 9, 2009 10:08 am (PST)

 

Benjamin,

It really depends on what you are treating. If you are treating

patients with colds/flus, autoimmune disorders, allergies, digestive

disorders, etc., you must get to the root and have a long-term

treatment strategy based on the accumulated knowledge in the Chinese

medical canon. Many of our patients (at least mine) also have

emotional/psycholog

ical issues that are contributing to their poor

health.

 

Chinese medicine treats a lot more than physical pain disorders.

And we are more than just physical therapists if we choose to be. . .

 

 

--

ATTENTION: Protected by Federal Law!

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information that is legally privileged and intended for the below-named

individual or entity only. The recipient of this document is prohibited from

disclosing its contents and is required by law to destroy this information once

authorized fulfillment is complete. If you have received this transmission in

error, please contact sender immediately.

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Following the thread

No matter what we say we are doing we are working with the complete person as

they are sitting in front us.  If they came with physical pain then I think we

are compelled to provide relief as much and as quick as possible.  If it is

mental/psychological pain then we need to determine how it is showing up in the

body, treat it and determine what other therapists might be appropriate as most

acupuncturist do not have the training to do psychological work.  If it is

spiritual pain we are working in a foggy area for most, as our training is not

in this direction, which is not to say we can't do it but I would not want to

foster my beliefs onto someone who is vulnerable and in pain - they may have a

different view of life different from mine.  My background MA in psychology

private practice for 10 years, a Doctor of Divinity and of course the requisite

L.Ac.  Reenah McGill

 

Dr. Reenah McGill Relieving Your pain

Licensed Acupuncturist

Specializing in Pain Relief 323.668.0278 land ph - 323.668.2206 fax -

 818-378-9882 cell

visit http://WWW.healingenergycenter.com or http://www.acuneuro.com or

http://www.mcgillpainclinic.com  

 

--- On Mon, 2/9/09, Benjamin Hawes, L.Ac. <bhawes wrote:

Benjamin Hawes, L.Ac. <bhawes

Tan / Tung, and the soul of medicine

Chinese Medicine

Monday, February 9, 2009, 12:04 PM

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Z'ev:

 

Yes, of course. My objection is re treating pain and ignoring pain

 

elimination in favor of " root " treatment. If you treat the pain with

 

acupuncture, and the pain goes away for good, then you have treated the

 

cause of the pain. Period. But you should make sure that you are

 

reducing the pain starting from the first treatment instead of delaying

 

or insisting on treating some esoteric " root " instead. To do otherwise

 

is irresponsible, especially since, UNLIKE physical therapists, we can

 

change pain instantly in most cases, and then with some repetition make

 

that change lasting.

 

 

 

Of course, different techniques handle different pathologies more or

 

less efficiently and completely as I have previously stated; treating

 

meridian pain points works best for blood and qi stagnation-caused pain,

 

which is the primary cause of pain in most cases. Of course, if there is

 

" spleen qi vacuity " then generally results will be less complete until

 

the person loses weight, gets stronger, and eats better and also they

 

can be assisted by using " constitutional " points like ST36 (maybe),

 

herbs (maybe), etc. Given the incidence of obesity in the US, I would

 

say very few people are capable of making those lifestyle changes

 

however. I don't even try - I tell them their weight will make things

 

more difficult, and that exercise and refraining from processed foods

 

will make them have less pain in the long run, but my primary goal is to

 

treat what I can for the person who is right there in front of me, as

 

they are. That is compassion. And if there is severe blood stasis, local

 

needling can often break it up more efficiently than distally. But in

 

those cases, surgery might be necessary, too, or it may be too late, as

 

in the elderly, to change the underlying causes in any permanent way

 

(semi-permanent, anyway, given our mortal lot), in which case our

 

medicine is palliative.

 

 

 

But I cannot agree in any way with Lonny Jarrett's assertion that

 

somehow I am not " evolved " along some religious framework because I

 

eliminate pain instead of some occult change in the patient's " qi " ,

 

constitution, soul, aura, spaghetti monster, pink elephant, or whatever.

 

Sorry, but that is the realm of religion and faith healing, and that on

 

that playing field Lonny, as earnest as he may be, is surrounded by

 

hucksters and lunatics. If you can't measure outcomes, and don't

 

acknowledge empirical data, you are practicing religion. Sorry.

 

 

 

Ben Hawes, L.Ac.

 

 

 

Re: Physical Therapists doing " Dry needling " . How is this

 

different

 

<http://groups. / group/Traditiona l_Chinese_ Medicine/

message/32051; _ylc=X3oDMTJyczF jOGc4BF9TAzk3MzU 5NzE1BGdycElkAzk

0OTU5NzcEZ3Jwc3B JZAMxNzA1MDYwODE 0BG1zZ0lkAzMyMDU xBHNlYwNkbXNnBHN

sawN2bXNnBHN0aW1 lAzEyMzQyMDMxOTQ ->

 

 

 

Posted by: " " zrosenbe (AT) san (DOT) rr.com

 

<zrosenbe (AT) san (DOT) rr.com?Subject=%20Re% 3A%20Physical%

20Therapists% 20doing%20% 22Dry%20needling %22%2E%20How% 20is%20this%

20different>

 

zrosenberg2001 <http://profiles. / zrosenberg2001>

 

 

 

Mon Feb 9, 2009 10:08 am (PST)

 

 

 

Benjamin,

 

It really depends on what you are treating. If you are treating

 

patients with colds/flus, autoimmune disorders, allergies, digestive

 

disorders, etc., you must get to the root and have a long-term

 

treatment strategy based on the accumulated knowledge in the Chinese

 

medical canon. Many of our patients (at least mine) also have

 

emotional/psycholog

 

ical issues that are contributing to their poor

 

health.

 

 

 

Chinese medicine treats a lot more than physical pain disorders.

 

And we are more than just physical therapists if we choose to be. . .

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

--

 

ATTENTION: Protected by Federal Law!

 

The documents accompanying this transmission contain confidential health care

information that is legally privileged and intended for the below-named

individual or entity only. The recipient of this document is prohibited from

disclosing its contents and is required by law to destroy this information once

authorized fulfillment is complete. If you have received this transmission in

error, please contact sender immediately.

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Benjamin,

This is a very difficult topic to discuss. Of course, I honor

those treatments and practitioners who specialize in pain treatments

and get top notch results. There is a lot of room in our universe for

different styles of practice.

 

However, my concern is that methods that dispense with the

diagnostic methods of classical Chinese medicine may treat external

pain, and not track the patient to make sure that it isn't transferred

internally to contribute to deeper stages of imbalance, which can

often happen many months after the original trauma is handled.

 

I know this is very controversial, but it needs to be said.

" Pain " is more than meets the eye sometimes, and I feel we have a

responsibility to our patients not only to relieve their pain, but to

make sure it doesn't reoccur as a deeper pathology further on down the

line.

 

 

 

 

On Feb 9, 2009, at 12:04 PM, Benjamin Hawes, L.Ac. wrote:

 

> Z'ev:

> Yes, of course. My objection is re treating pain and ignoring pain

> elimination in favor of " root " treatment. If you treat the pain with

> acupuncture, and the pain goes away for good, then you have treated

> the

> cause of the pain. Period. But you should make sure that you are

> reducing the pain starting from the first treatment instead of

> delaying

> or insisting on treating some esoteric " root " instead. To do otherwise

> is irresponsible, especially since, UNLIKE physical therapists, we can

> change pain instantly in most cases, and then with some repetition

> make

> that change lasting.

 

 

Chair, Department of Herbal Medicine

Pacific College of Oriental Medicine

San Diego, Ca. 92122

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Rennah: If they came with physical pain then I think we

are compelled to provide relief as much and as quick as possible.

 

Lonny: I disagree. On the most simple level we can take an example of

a person whose physical pain is do to neglect, willful abuse, or

worse. That covers a lot of people. Merely removing pain without

lifestyle change and deep understanding being brought to bear upon the

real etiology of the condition amounts to nothing. Chinese medicine at

its very best has the potential to be both holistic and integral.

These terms imply that the person moves from a relatively divided

state to increasing states of wholeness IN ALL LINES OF DEVELOPMENT.

 

Rennah: If it is

mental/psychological pain then we need to determine how it is showing

up in the

body, treat it and determine what other therapists might be

appropriate as most

acupuncturist do not have the training to do psychological work.

 

 

Lonny: There is no separation between the body, mind, and spirit.

There is no " inside " and " outside " that are separate in any way. If

practitioners don't have the depth within themselves to practice

holistically and in an integral context, this reflects a failure of

both the individual's interest and of the institution they attended in

directing them toward depth. Having said that, the entire

" psychological " realm identified in the West in the last 100 years has

very little to do with meaningful healing and the depth of CM goes

very far beyond that small, sensitive self, contraction that is

generally addressed by the humanistic, psychological approach.

 

 

Rennah: If it is

spiritual pain we are working in a foggy area for most, as our

training is not

in this direction, which is not to say we can't do it but I would not

want to

foster my beliefs onto someone who is vulnerable and in pain - they

may have a

different view of life different from mine.

 

 

Lonny: Addressing the spirit, consciousness, is the heart and soul of

medicine. This was recognized in the Classics and it's just as true

today. Working in this way has nothing to do with foisting one's

beliefs on another. One's spiritual condition is as objective a fact

as the state of one's qi and blood, one's tongue, one's constitution,

syndrome pattern, or the location, quality, and etiology of physical

pain. To know others one has to know one's self and this is a matter

of interest, intention, and education. There is no scarcity of

information in this regard. And while others may have " a different

view of life " all views are not equal. In CM we have only to be

primarily concerned with lack of integrity and any practitioner truly

interested in seeing his or her own condition and striving to improve

it will gain sufficient depth to approach this with others. When one's

life is focused on integrity then his or her practice of medicine will

reflect that integrity from the greatest depth that practitioner has

extended him or herself.

[Guest guest]

Ben: My objection is re treating pain and ignoring pain

elimination in favor of " root " treatment. If you treat the pain with

acupuncture, and the pain goes away for good, then you have treated

the cause of the pain.

 

Lonny: This isn't remotely true. One can use CM very handily to

suppress pain, drive it deeper, and potentiate illness. Rectification

of the qi ALWAYS has to be from the inside out and that implicates a

restitution of the integrity between jing, qi, and shen which is no

small matter.

 

 

Ben: Period. But you should make sure that you are

reducing the pain starting from the first treatment instead of delaying

or insisting on treating some esoteric " root " instead.

 

Lonny: To anyone who has learned a substantive tradition of CM the

" root " is never esoteric but explicit. Personally, I have less than

Zero interest in the " esoteric " and that's a metaphysical statement!

 

 

Ben: To do otherwise

is irresponsible, especially since, UNLIKE physical therapists, we can

change pain instantly in most cases, and then with some repetition

make that change lasting.

 

Lonny: And all that amounts to nothing in a human being who remains

unchanged except for the fact of less pain. In an integral medicine

pain relief can never be more than a side effect of meaningful

treatment. It is certainly true that patients exist on a very wide

continuum of development and potentialities. Some have no interest in

integrity, some say they do and don't, and some do actually. Still

it's our position as healers to have the integrity of interest to meet

people on that entire continuum and have the depth of skill to bring

everyone forward to whatever degree possible.

 

 

Ben: Of course, different techniques handle different pathologies more or

less efficiently and completely as I have previously stated; treating

meridian pain points works best for blood and qi stagnation-caused pain,

which is the primary cause of pain in most cases.

 

Lonny: Blood and qi are in no way separate from the soul, spirit, and

consciousness of an individual. They are expressions of that

consciousness first and foremost. Consciousness as manifested in blood

and qi exists on a continuum of being wholly lost in ignorance to

infinite levels of awakening and awareness. Only in an awakened

individual is medicine primarily concerned with purification of the

vessel. As practitioners are responsible for striving to develop the

kind of depth that allows us to contextualize our observations

regarding our patients actual condition. There is no evidence to

support the conclusion that pain relief, temporary or otherwise means

that a patient has been addressed with due care in the biggest

possible picture available to s as practitioners in the 21st century. .

 

 

 

 

 

Ben: Of course, if there is

" spleen qi vacuity " then generally results will be less complete until

the person loses weight, gets stronger, and eats better and also they

can be assisted by using " constitutional " points like ST36 (maybe),

herbs (maybe), etc. Given the incidence of obesity in the US, I would

say very few people are capable of making those lifestyle changes

however. I don't even try - I tell them their weight will make things

more difficult, and that exercise and refraining from processed foods

will make them have less pain in the long run, but my primary goal is

to treat what I can for the person who is right there in front of me,

as they are.

 

Lonny: The person sitting in front of you has a soul, a conscience, a

mind, an ego, and consciousness which is undoubtedly conditioned by,

at the very least, their life time of inculturated experience. They

aren't just a syndrome pattern.

 

Ben: That is compassion.

 

Lonny: We could all learn a lot more about compassion and I don't

think that reducing pain, whether it be physical, emotional, or

spiritually based, asap is a sufficient definition.

 

 

 

Ben: But I cannot agree in any way with Lonny Jarrett's assertion that

somehow I am not " evolved " along some religious framework because I

eliminate pain instead of some occult change in the patient's " qi " ,

constitution, soul, aura, spaghetti monster, pink elephant, or whatever.

 

Lonny: In the first place I never mentioned " religion " . Your speaking

very casually, defensively, and disrespectfully about what could well

be the most significant issue facing postmodern humanity today. I have

no interest in the " esoteric " , the occult, and very little interest

other than anthropological in terms of what you would call religion.

The soul, conscience, free will, intention, integrity, humility,

respect, dignity, and courage, for starters are significant aspects of

what it means to be a human being and are in no way separate from a

person's health. Jing, qi, shen, hun, po, blood, meridians, and

acupuncture points are just functional correlates of these virtues and

aspects of being. Objectification of human beings in terms of

" syndrome patterns " , " constitutional types " , can be just a way of

avoiding responsibility for the depth required to practice medicine

with integrity. The word " integral " as applied to the practice of

medicine is always implicating of one's own depth and integrity

 

Ben: Sorry, but that is the realm of religion and faith healing, and

that on that playing field Lonny, as earnest as he may be, is

surrounded by hucksters and lunatics.

 

Lonny: And that isn't a compelling reason to not strive for integrity

and a depth of understanding of the human condition for the sake of

our patient's wholeness. It's a reason to become more earnest and less

casual about the important things. In this context I remind you that

CM has a great depth of understanding soul, spirit, will, intention,

integrity, ego, and authentic self in relationship to health. This

understanding and emphasis is conveyed throughout the classics in the

related fields of medicine, alchemy, spirituality, and philosophy. One

may say they have no interest in paying the price for that kind of

depth but one's lack of interest does not diminish its presence,

importance, or the gravity of its call.

 

 

Ben:If you can't measure outcomes, and don't

acknowledge empirical data, you are practicing religion. Sorry.

 

Lonny: What one measures in terms of an outcome depends on one's value

system. I agree absolutely that their must be objective clinical

outcomes but I would define these much more broadly and vertically

than rapidity of pain reduction or reduction of symptoms.