Nerve Impulse = Qi ?

February 8, 2009

Young Wei -Chieh writes that acupuncture works by stimulating nerves (Master

Tung system).

Is there anywhere in the classical literature where nerves are described as

distinct from Qi meridians?

According to modern research, Type I and Type II Efferent nerves create

different stimuli based on the way that they are manipulated...

ie. heavy and numb feelings vs electrical sensations.

Do you think it's fair to say that acupuncture works by affecting these

nerves (if we take the metaphysical aspect of Qi out of the picture)?

Definitely, in clinic, patients and practitioners can feel the traditional

Qi flow through the channels,

which don't always follow along nerve or blood vasculature lines.

However, we still haven't been able to prove these channels through modern

imaging or testing. How come?

A big problem with bridging the gap is the translation of Qi and Qi

meridians.

Anyone have a convincing argument?

--

www.tcmreview.com

The Four Reliances:

Do not rely upon the individual, but rely upon the teaching.

As far as teachings go, do not rely upon the words alone, but rely upon the

meaning that underlies them.

Regarding the meaning, do not rely upon the provisional meaning alone, but

rely upon the definitive meaning.

And regarding the definitive meaning, do not rely upon ordinary

consciousness, but rely upon wisdom awareness.

February 8, 2009

Hey John:

I think it is fair to say that a lot of acupuncture's effect involves nerve

participation. As far as I know the classics weren't clear when differentiating

between tissues the way modern anatomy tries to be; again, as far I can tell

this is always going to happen when we consider function over form. We can't

forget that we intepret _everything_ *even when it seems that it is a

value-free, uninterpretable observation*. We _always_ intepret.

I'll leave the above to others on this list to describe in more detail though.

My interest currently is less in the classics and more in unravelling the webs

of confusion that we have allowed to be placed on us by biomedicine.

In that vein, I can give a very firm opinion with regards to propagated

sensation:

--John-

Definitely, in clinic, patients and practitioners can feel the traditional Qi

flow through the channels, which don't always follow along nerve or blood

vasculature lines.

However, we still haven't been able to prove these channels through modern

imaging or testing. How come?

---

The propagation track that has been most common in my experience is that of the

stomach channel, and I always laugh when a patient describes it to me,

especially that funny little diversion from St18 to St19: of course, being the

responsible scientist that I am, I chortle and let them know that " that's

impossible! " . If they get my joke we both have a good laugh, but if not then I

end up having a lot of explaining (read: apologising) to do.

If we take a look at Basics of Acupuncture (Stux, Berman, Pomeranz), we find

the following gems (amongst many other gems):

" Perhaps the most intriguing phenomena related to the meridians are propagated

sensations along the meridians (PSM). In about 10% of the population, needling

causes a sensation to radiate along the meridian away from the needle, in a

direction innapropriate for the direction of the nerves (i.e. paresthesis should

always propagate from proximal to distal but PSM often goes from distal to

proximal). The speed of transmission of PSM is approximately 10cm per sec which

is 10 times slower than the slowest conducting C-fibers which conduct at 1 meter

per sec. Moreover, PSM does not follow somatosensory distribution of the nerves

and does not restrict itself to one or two dermatomes. "

This is all very telling, but the next section veers off into a weird mix of

responsible reporting and lack of imagination. Unfortunately, as a result of

this sullen collision, our faculties become confused: watch how our little

monster of interpretation successfully rears its head without being seen:

" Professor Bossy has proposed a plausible mechanism which does not involve qi

transfer along the meridians but rather a neurological explanation. He proposes

that the neural message travels from the acupoint into the spinal cord and then

up (and down) several spinal segments (i.e. dermatomes) via interneuronal

networks in laminae 2 and 3 of Rexed of the dorsal horn. The brain then

perceives this as a sensation travelling into these dermatomes (i.e. an

illusion). "

I call this problem the " stoplight effect " . The above HYPOTHESIS might even be

correct but it creates two problems: 1. there is a heavy, clear implication that

it is to be a complete explanation in and of itself and 2. the hypothesis,

incredibly, ignores the problem of confusing the signal for the phenomena.

You might ask: what is the " stoplight effect " , in essence?

Well, let me tell you!

The stoplight effect is the name of a short story which I may write in some

future reality, and it is based on first contact with ALIENS. (This story has

been told many times, actually.) Really, the story comes down to one thing:

because of certain biases, the aliens become overly involved with our electrical

system, predictably growing more and more confused as they search for the source

of this self-forming " phenomena " (as they, again predictably, refer to it), not

realising that it is more of a " scheme " , or a " racket " , than a " phenomena " ! In

any case, our plot trajectory hits its climax as the aliens reach the limits of

their intellectual pursuit of our traffic signalling system, which, at times,

seems to be a mysterious interface with a...something ... or even a someone!

Unfortunately, the aliens just can't take the implications, and write the

signalling system off (in great technical detail) as something that exists for

its own sake - lights

flashing solitude in the dead of night... (oooo!)

Which is a fancy way of saying, " exists for no reason " .

For those of you who enjoy being hit on the head, or alternatively have no

taste for Hugo's Short Stories:

The type of mental sleight that is required to make a statement such as that

referred to in the second quoted section is incredible to me. Having an

explanation for how a series of photons activate light-sensing cells on the

retina, how these stimuli are transmitted via a dedicated nerve and then

distributed throughout the brain with a focus on the optical processing centre

IN NO WAY explains the phenomena being sensed - only how the sense of this

external phenomena comes about.

Sleight of mind, people. Sleight Of Mind:

" The brain then perceives this as a sensation travelling into these dermatomes

(i.e. an illusion). "

Just like my retina is impacted by energy, recodes this energy, sends it

somewhere to be interpreted, and my " brain then perceives it as a visual

sensation " , which obviously is an illusion??? Which is correct actually, but not

Really, if you get my meaning.

Bossy's hypothesis may actually be the way the nerves of the body sense the

flow of qi. I find that completely believable.

On the other hand, the implication that they are sensing " nothing " is ludicrous

to me. Nerves that pass every test for normalcy that biomedical science can

throw at them still sense ghosts. Please, that is no more than superstition..

Off my well used soapbox (I am saving for a podium).

Hugo

________________________________

Hugo Ramiro

http://middlemedicine.wordpress.com

http://www.chinesemedicaltherapies.org

February 8, 2009

A simple reason is that modern anatomy/physiology has never developed

or evolved ideas of channels, therefore it cannot find them.

Biomedicine would have to evolve new theoretical structures to even

begin discussing channels.

On Feb 8, 2009, at 8:24 AM, wrote:

> Definitely, in clinic, patients and practitioners can feel the

> traditional

> Qi flow through the channels,

> which don't always follow along nerve or blood vasculature lines.

> However, we still haven't been able to prove these channels through

> modern

> imaging or testing. How come?

Chair, Department of Herbal Medicine

Pacific College of Oriental Medicine

San Diego, Ca. 92122

February 8, 2009

Chinese Medicine ,

<johnkokko wrote:

>

Definitely, in clinic, patients and practitioners can feel the

traditional Qi flow through the channels, which don't always follow

along nerve or blood vasculature lines.

However, we still haven't been able to prove these channels through

modern imaging or testing. How come?

A big problem with bridging the gap is the translation of Qi and Qi

meridians.

Anyone have a convincing argument?

Hello all

am similarly intrigued, and often wonder about these things; currently

I'm happy with the idea that a kinesthetically sensitive person,

gifted with several kinds of intelligence, an inquisitive mind, a

life-long passion for observation and learning, and a desire to

understand and help others, is the more sensitive and refined state of

matter when it comes to assessing disarray and disease in another.

So-called 'sophisticated' imaging and testing devices and gizmos -

those we already have, and those yet to be invented - still need a

bunch of humans to design and get them functional, and more than one

to interpret the results. Then a treatment must be initiated to suit

the individual...

Fine, well-educated whole-systems health practitioners, like many in

this group, can often provide the same information - using a

nomenclature which describes that which is always present.

Alternatively - or as well as the above - anatomical structures,

fluids, biochemical and bio-electrical substances, pathways and

activity ... Qi IS all these things, manifesting as big, dense, gross

and evident, through to fine, minute and subtle to the point of being

almost elusive... this information is imparted very well in the

Ayurvedic tradition, from which TCM may have arisen... but that's

another whole thread and thesis!

Margi

February 9, 2009

If one wants to find the medidians all one has to do is go to an electrical

shop/radio shack and buy a simple ohm meter. You can find those areas of less

resistance that track the meridian system. Or you can take a simple acupoint

finder and do the same thing. They are there and you can " see " them via the

meters. Pretty simple.

DJS

: zrosenbe:

Sun, 8 Feb 2009 13:08:47 -0800Re: Nerve Impulse = Qi ?

A simple reason is that modern anatomy/physiology has never developed or evolved

ideas of channels, therefore it cannot find them. Biomedicine would have to

evolve new theoretical structures to even begin discussing channels.Z'ev

RosenbergOn Feb 8, 2009, at 8:24 AM, wrote:> Definitely, in clinic,

patients and practitioners can feel the > traditional> Qi flow through the

channels,> which don't always follow along nerve or blood vasculature lines.>

However, we still haven't been able to prove these channels through > modern>

imaging or testing. How come?Chair, Department of Herbal

MedicinePacific College of Oriental MedicineSan Diego, Ca. 92122[Non-text

portions of this message have been removed]

February 9, 2009

Hi everybody, this didn't seem to go through on Sunday, so here it is again: