Physical Therapists doing Dry needling. How is this different

[Guest guest]

Ever heard of a pneumothorax caused by a classically and correctly

trained acupuncturist?

>>>>Yes including some very famous ones here in CA

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Margi

At the same time when using anatomy to guide needling one may attempt

more dangerous territory, this often gives good results but does have

its risks. Its not about taking anything lightly but the consideration

of risk befit ratios. I have resolved many pain syndromes in patients

that have undergone several acupuncture approaches by doing just that.

In actuality the lack of anatomical training of most LAcs often

results of fearfulness of such techniques and probably increased

" safety " record, although we have no idea if that is really true.

 

 

 

 

400 29th St. Suite 419

Oakland Ca 94609

 

 

 

alonmarcus

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Chinese Medicine , alon marcus

<alonmarcus wrote:

 

" In actuality the lack of anatomical training of most LAcs often

results of fearfulness of such techniques and probably increased

" safety " record, although we have no idea if that is really true. "

 

 

Hi Alon, and others

 

yes, that may definitely be the case ... for me Peter Deadman's

door-stopper sized text, with good visuals, and clear notes about

anatomy and safe needling, is still a standard worth revisiting

regularly... so too is 'first do no harm'... if I feel my training has

been inadequate, I defer to caution.

 

No-body ever died from musculo-skeletal pain, but you sure as s#*t can

die from a pnuemothorax gone badly wrong... it's the rapid progression

to cardiac tamponade which can be the killer.

 

Yes, we don't centrally record and review our adverse patient events,

and this may be where at least the allopathic system in Australia is

streets ahead of CAM.

 

Even if the number of medically induced deaths, injuries and disasters

is appalling in my country, hey, at least someone's monitoring it - to

change something, you first have to know it's there, and understand it.

 

Margi

[Guest guest]

Hi Alon!

 

--Alon-

Its not about taking anything lightly but the consideration

of risk befit ratios. I have resolved many pain syndromes in patients

that have undergone several acupuncture approaches by doing just that.

---

 

I don't believe that Margi was referring to you, Alon. You have *extensive* and

excellent training in plus numerous other disciplines.

Therefore, as a practitioner, you are disqualified from her equation. She is

(likely?) referring to people (PTs, Chiros, MDs, RNs, MTs) who have minimal

training in acupuncture or similar modalities and are causing harm - which is

what the research shows.

It is a known behaviour in the medical world for iatrogenic injury or illness

to be swept under the rug, to remain unrecognised, or to be taken flippantly,

with an attitude of " we're the most qualified anyway, so you can't really blame

us " . There is plenty of research supporting this position (and a certain amount

of action taken to counter these problems).

 

I personally would not want a 200 hour practitioner jabbing a needle into my

back who won't be paying attention to their intention, my respiration (and

therefore theirs!) or the tonicity of my tissues (ie when my body says " stop " or

" go " ). It's basic Chinese medicine, but not basic 200 hour weekend courses. On

the other hand, I would not question an acupuncture treatment from you.

 

--Alon-

In actuality the lack of anatomical training of most LAcs often

results of fearfulness of such techniques and probably increased

" safety " record, although we have no idea if that is really true.

 

---

 

I agree with your first statement - that can be a problem with north american

acupuncturists, certainly. I also agree that, again, as a profession, it does

us no good to be undertrained. In your opinion and experience are a lot of

serious errors committed by the north american-trained acupuncture community?

 

Thanks,

Hugo

 

 

 

________________________________

Hugo Ramiro

http://middlemedicine.wordpress.com

http://www.chinesemedicaltherapies.org

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Good point, Hugo. Yes, in my state it is 300 hrs, two weeks in the classroom,

the rest distance training, for MD acupuncture training. I think we as holistic

healers are much more sensitive to being jabbed by anyone that does not have

their attention focused. I am not saying all MD's etc are like this, but I

certainly prefer the years of training, continuting education (which to me is

just as important if not more so than the school training), reading listserves

like this one, being constantly in the question of what can I learn to make me a

better practioner.

 

Anne

 

 

> I personally would not want a 200 hour practitioner jabbing a needle into my

> back who won't be paying attention to their intention, my respiration (and

> therefore theirs!) or the tonicity of my tissues (ie when my body says " stop "

or

> " go " ). It's basic Chinese medicine, but not basic 200 hour weekend courses. On

> the other hand, I would not question an acupuncture treatment from you.

>

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Hi Hugo

All the practitioners you mentioned do have extensive anatomical training and

therefor i would not have any problem going to one if they learned their travell

or Gun methods well. I don't think LAcs make errors when practicing acupuncture,

how can that even be assessed? At the same time very few i have tried to train

have the security to actually practice some of the dry needling techniques i

have showed them, they do have higher risks that goes with the territory.

Anatomical based dry needling is very different than acupuncture, it takes a

totally different training and state of mind.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Margi

I am not talking about " acupuncture, " ie dry needling according to oriental

medical principals. I am talking about anatomically based dry needling. Now the

question of how long it takes to learn acupuncture AS A TECHNIC is a whole

different question. For example i think any serious MD can learn Kiko style acup

in 300 hours. They can definitely learn the balance method, or tung style acup.

What they cannot is learn Chinese medicine unless we are talking about simple

TCM which i know several MDs that have done so with 300hr training. Remember

Maciocia text is a small textbook as far as they are concerned. Yes its a very

different mind set and many will never be able to switch hats and allow for good

learning but as far as retaining the information its not that difficult. What we

need, at least in north America, is to work on our own skills and scope of

practice. I for one think we should increase the education so that we can have

the same scope of practice that is practiced in modern China. That would allow

us to compete in any health care system without feeling so threatened by such

issues.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

MD's are not necessarily smarter nor do they learn any faster than any other

normal human beings. They go through 2 to fours years of pre-med. (calculus,

chemistry, and bio) and 4 years of graduate school. They have a residency

requirement that is pure hell that we do not have. But we also don't have the

" indoctrination " process either. Another thing we don't have is a fantastic PR

machine that make us look " bigger than life. " If they can learn this stuff in

300 hours, so can we.

 

Just a thought.

 

Dr. Don Snow, DAOM, MPH, LAc

 

 

 

: alonmarcus:

Fri, 6 Feb 2009 11:29:03 -0800Re: Physical Therapists doing " Dry

needling " . How is this different

 

 

 

MargiI am not talking about " acupuncture, " ie dry needling according to oriental

medical principals. I am talking about anatomically based dry needling. Now the

question of how long it takes to learn acupuncture AS A TECHNIC is a whole

different question. For example i think any serious MD can learn Kiko style acup

in 300 hours. They can definitely learn the balance method, or tung style acup.

What they cannot is learn Chinese medicine unless we are talking about simple

TCM which i know several MDs that have done so with 300hr training. Remember

Maciocia text is a small textbook as far as they are concerned. Yes its a very

different mind set and many will never be able to switch hats and allow for good

learning but as far as retaining the information its not that difficult. What we

need, at least in north America, is to work on our own skills and scope of

practice. I for one think we should increase the education so that we can have

the same scope of practice that is practiced in modern China. That would allow

us to compete in any health care system without feeling so threatened by such

issues.Oakland CA

94609[Non-text portions of this

message have been removed]

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Well i can tell you that when i tried to teach orthopedics at one of

the better collages up here people were so overwhelmed it was very

sad. I have taught MDs and DOs similar materials as well as materials

they have never heard and that was not the situation. They are used to

a large amount of information, home study etc. I am not saying all the

students were like that but at least 90%. You kidding your self if you

think you ever had to handle the same amount of information coming at

you in OM school as MDs have to do in med school.

 

 

 

400 29th St. Suite 419

Oakland Ca 94609

 

 

 

alonmarcus

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Med school is definitely more rigorous in the amount of things to memorize,

there aren't any objections there.

A big difference is that those who go into MD school tend to be more left

brained,

while TCM students are very often encouraged to be right brained.

Very often, MDs have a hard time studying TCM, because it tends to be more

holistic in it's makeup.

TCM is more like the game of Go, Biomed more like Chess.

Go has easier rules to play, but is actually more complex because of the

integration of patterns.

TCM requires more creativity in a sense... thinking outside of the box and

looking at the whole box, per se.

 

You're right in that students have a hard time memorizing one book.. ie

Chinese acupuncture and moxibustion by Beijing press,

but the utilization and integration of the concepts are what makes TCM

effective.

 

Alon, you have a long line of MDs in your family, so you may have been

trained to think in that way,

even before you got into medicine. I don't think that TCM students are

lazy, but more right brained.

Most of the students that I teach like to think of things visually and

orally, through pictures and metaphors.

That's probably why they got into TCM into the first place

and probably why the language of Chinese medicine is steeped in metaphor to

begin with.

Of course, I agree that standards need to be higher as well.

In order to pass the CA boards, you need to have both sides of the brain

firing at the same time.

 

Best,

K

 

 

 

On Sat, Feb 7, 2009 at 9:38 AM, alon marcus <alonmarcus wrote:

 

> Well i can tell you that when i tried to teach orthopedics at one of

> the better collages up here people were so overwhelmed it was very

> sad. I have taught MDs and DOs similar materials as well as materials

> they have never heard and that was not the situation. They are used to

> a large amount of information, home study etc. I am not saying all the

> students were like that but at least 90%. You kidding your self if you

> think you ever had to handle the same amount of information coming at

> you in OM school as MDs have to do in med school.

>

>

>

> 400 29th St. Suite 419

> Oakland Ca 94609

>

>

>

> alonmarcus <alonmarcus%40wans.net>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Chinese Medicine , " Alon Marcus "

<alonmarcus wrote:

>

" I am not talking about " acupuncture, " ie dry needling according to

oriental medical principals. I am talking about anatomically based dry

needling. "

 

 

Hi Alon,

yes indeed; the two therapies - as we know - are distinct, and so too

are the needling techniques.

 

I tried to find the original post in this thread, because at the back

of my mind, is the sense that whomever first posted, may have tapped

into the understanding that lay people - patients - have of being needled.

 

I find in my own - Australian - experience, that people who come to

TCM acupuncturists for whatever reason, have by now, often heard of

physios, chiros etc who needle people, or have perhaps received some

dry needling treatments.

In their minds, there is usually no difference between 'dry needling'

and acupuncture, especially in the context of musculo-skeletal

presentations.

I have observed that dry needlers are usually very good at selling the

'gee-whizz' factor of their technique

 

Anecdotally, in our country, it seems there are more incidences of

harm caused by dry-needling, than by acupuncture, though no-one would

really know.

With the exception of one state registration board, the rest of us are

unregistered, and pretty much self-regulated, being overseen by our

professional associations, who might take disciplinary action for a

few things, like insurance fraud, and unprofessional conduct, but not

for adverse events.

 

And so we get back to the same ol' same old, but vital issue of

needing to educate our patients about what it is we do as TCM

acupuncturists, and why the work we do is safe, valuable, credible,

useful, and not to be taken lightly.

 

Margi

[Guest guest]

Koko

Actually there are a lot of patterns in WM as well that is not the

problem. The problem MDs have is they often can't switch hats. Its

their attitude that bioscience is " correct " and their difficulties

with having multiple approaches suppository being equal, ie tung,

balance, tcm whatever all work. We tend to go along with it all

working we dont demand objective evaluation to support these beliefs

even though in reality that attitude and reality is very problematic.

How can it all work, does it really? and then we tend to have problem

showing real acupuncture works better than sham. My point has been

more about the ability to learn information in a shorter amount of

time. The ability to take it to the clinic is a different question.

Are they less effective? If yes is it because of the ritual of the

practice or actual knowledge. And again i like to emphasize that i a

talking acupuncture not herbs. I dont think the student i was talking

about were lazy they just could not handle a large amount of

information in a short time.

 

 

 

 

400 29th St. Suite 419

Oakland Ca 94609

 

 

 

alonmarcus

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

I was a trained military physician's assistant for 22 years. While not an MD,

it is certainly far more medical training and education that the average AOM

student. I also have some experience teaching in one of the largest oriental

medical schools in the United States. The biggest shortcomings I saw in the

average student were a lack of rigoruous undergraduate schooling. Few have

undergone education in the sciences such as biology, chemistry, genetics,

physics, etc. Also, the approach of many to this medicine is almost mystical.

This medicine is as " scientific " as allopathic medicine. It is just that the

ancestors used a different language to discribe many of the same phenomena.

This is somewhat of an oversimplification, but our medicine works regardless of

belief; or lack thereof. I truly think that those entering AOM should have a

strong pre-medical education. That is the foundation.

 

Don J. Snow, DAOM, MPH, LAc

 

 

 

: johnkokko:

Sat, 7 Feb 2009 11:35:42 -0800Re: Re: Physical Therapists doing

" Dry needling " . How is this different

 

 

 

Med school is definitely more rigorous in the amount of things to memorize,there

aren't any objections there.A big difference is that those who go into MD school

tend to be more leftbrained,while TCM students are very often encouraged to be

right brained.Very often, MDs have a hard time studying TCM, because it tends to

be moreholistic in it's makeup.TCM is more like the game of Go, Biomed more like

Chess.Go has easier rules to play, but is actually more complex because of

theintegration of patterns.TCM requires more creativity in a sense... thinking

outside of the box andlooking at the whole box, per se.You're right in that

students have a hard time memorizing one book.. ieChinese acupuncture and

moxibustion by Beijing press,but the utilization and integration of the concepts

are what makes TCMeffective.Alon, you have a long line of MDs in your family, so

you may have beentrained to think in that way,even before you got into medicine.

I don't think that TCM students arelazy, but more right brained.Most of the

students that I teach like to think of things visually andorally, through

pictures and metaphors.That's probably why they got into TCM into the first

placeand probably why the language of Chinese medicine is steeped in metaphor

tobegin with.Of course, I agree that standards need to be higher as well.In

order to pass the CA boards, you need to have both sides of the brainfiring at

the same time.Best,KOn Sat, Feb 7, 2009 at 9:38 AM, alon marcus

<alonmarcus wrote:> Well i can tell you that when i tried to teach

orthopedics at one of> the better collages up here people were so overwhelmed it

was very> sad. I have taught MDs and DOs similar materials as well as materials>

they have never heard and that was not the situation. They are used to> a large

amount of information, home study etc. I am not saying all the> students were

like that but at least 90%. You kidding your self if you> think you ever had to

handle the same amount of information coming at> you in OM school as MDs have to

do in med school.>> >> 400 29th St. Suite 419> Oakland Ca 94609>

>> > alonmarcus

<alonmarcus%40wans.net>>> [Non-text portions of this message have been

removed]>> >-- www.tcmreview.comThe Four Reliances:Do not rely

upon the individual, but rely upon the teaching.As far as teachings go, do not

rely upon the words alone, but rely upon themeaning that underlies

them.Regarding the meaning, do not rely upon the provisional meaning alone,

butrely upon the definitive meaning.And regarding the definitive meaning, do not

rely upon ordinaryconsciousness, but rely upon wisdom awareness.[Non-text

portions of this message have been removed]

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

hear hear!

hooray for common sense!

anything other than this is the practice of religion, i.e. " subtle "

(unprovable) results determined by the practitioner's own metrics and

having nothing to do with how the patient actually feels in the end.

most of my patients in the beginning of my practice came from other

practitioners who were treating the " root " with no observable change in

the patients' pain. the patients kept on going because they were told

they had to " deeply shift " their constitutions in order for the pain to

" truly " heal.

 

that's a bunch of b.s., frankly. It is disrespectful to the patients,

who want to get out of pain, and it is unsupported by any evidence

whatsoever beyond a self-referential world of gurus and texts.

 

being just out of school, knowing almost nothing, I was able to help

these folks feel better in a consistent, lasting manner, and it's why,

eight years later, I'm still in business.

 

oh, and anyone who says you can't alter spinal alignment instantly using

distal points has never tried. it's easy, it works every time, and it

fixes the causes of pain in most cases. EOS.

 

Ben Hawes, L.Ac.

 

 

Re: Response to the recent thread regarding Tan/Chen/Tung styles

of

<Chinese Medicine/message/31997;_ylc=X\

3oDMTJyYmU3aHJsBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE1BGdycElkAzk0OTU5NzcEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1MDYwODE0BG1zZ\

0lkAzMxOTk3BHNlYwNkbXNnBHNsawN2bXNnBHN0aW1lAzEyMzQwMjcwNDI->

 

 

 

Posted by: " Donald Snow " don83407

<don83407?Subject=%20Re%3A%20Response%20to%20the%20recent%20threa\

d%20regarding%20Tan%2FChen%2FTung%20styles%20of%20>

daomsnow <http://profiles./daomsnow>

 

 

Fri Feb 6, 2009 1:07 pm (PST)

 

 

To me, a result is the elimination of the pain and the problem that

causes the pain. Not much value system there. The problem either is,

or it isn't. Whatever make that particular problem go away is the

superior method.

 

Don Snow, DAOM, MPH, LAc

 

--

ATTENTION: Protected by Federal Law!

The documents accompanying this transmission contain confidential health care

information that is legally privileged and intended for the below-named

individual or entity only. The recipient of this document is prohibited from

disclosing its contents and is required by law to destroy this information once

authorized fulfillment is complete. If you have received this transmission in

error, please contact sender immediately.

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Benjamin,

It really depends on what you are treating. If you are treating

patients with colds/flus, autoimmune disorders, allergies, digestive

disorders, etc., you must get to the root and have a long-term

treatment strategy based on the accumulated knowledge in the Chinese

medical canon. Many of our patients (at least mine) also have

emotional/psychological issues that are contributing to their poor

health.

 

Chinese medicine treats a lot more than physical pain disorders.

And we are more than just physical therapists if we choose to be. . .

 

 

 

On Feb 9, 2009, at 9:42 AM, Benjamin Hawes, L.Ac. wrote:

 

>

>

> hear hear!

> hooray for common sense!

> anything other than this is the practice of religion, i.e. " subtle "

> (unprovable) results determined by the practitioner's own metrics and

> having nothing to do with how the patient actually feels in the end.

> most of my patients in the beginning of my practice came from other

> practitioners who were treating the " root " with no observable change

> in

> the patients' pain. the patients kept on going because they were told

> they had to " deeply shift " their constitutions in order for the pain

> to

> " truly " heal.

>

> that's a bunch of b.s., frankly. It is disrespectful to the patients,

> who want to get out of pain, and it is unsupported by any evidence

> whatsoever beyond a self-referential world of gurus and texts.

>

> being just out of school, knowing almost nothing, I was able to help

> these folks feel better in a consistent, lasting manner, and it's why,

> eight years later, I'm still in business.

>

> oh, and anyone who says you can't alter spinal alignment instantly

> using

> distal points has never tried. it's easy, it works every time, and it

> fixes the causes of pain in most cases. EOS.

>

> Ben Hawes, L.Ac.

>

> Re: Response to the recent thread regarding Tan/Chen/Tung styles

> of

>

<Chinese Medicine/message/31997;_ylc=X\

3oDMTJyYmU3aHJsBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE1BGdycElkAzk0OTU5NzcEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1MDYwODE0BG1zZ\

0lkAzMxOTk3BHNlYwNkbXNnBHNsawN2bXNnBHN0aW1lAzEyMzQwMjcwNDI-

> >

>

> Posted by: " Donald Snow " don83407

>

<don83407?Subject=%20Re%3A%20Response%20to%20the%20recent%20threa\

d%20regarding%20Tan%2FChen%2FTung%20styles%20of%20

> >

> daomsnow <http://profiles./daomsnow>

>

> Fri Feb 6, 2009 1:07 pm (PST)

>

> To me, a result is the elimination of the pain and the problem that

> causes the pain. Not much value system there. The problem either is,

> or it isn't. Whatever make that particular problem go away is the

> superior method.

>

> Don Snow, DAOM, MPH, LAc

>

> --

> ATTENTION: Protected by Federal Law!

> The documents accompanying this transmission contain confidential

> health care information that is legally privileged and intended for

> the below-named individual or entity only. The recipient of this

> document is prohibited from disclosing its contents and is required

> by law to destroy this information once authorized fulfillment is

> complete. If you have received this transmission in error, please

> contact sender immediately.

>

>

[Guest guest]

I also absolutely agree, HOWEVER, there is amelioration of pain and there is

blocking of pain.  Western biomedicine takes the approach of attacking the pain

at all costs.  That can mean injections to numb the pain (nerve blocks) , using

pharmacological intervention to alter the sensation of pain, or surgery to sever

the nerve in extreme cases.  I  find these approaches unacceptable.  They are

typical of Western biomedicine's using elephants to kill flies.  Of course, a

side benefit of Chinese medicine, using the modalities which we have gone to

school to learn and practice with proficiency is the amelioration of pain.  But

should not our goal always be to put our patient's in balance, treating the root

as well as the pain, with the goal of preventing the pain from returning, G-d

willing?  Whether the pain is from Qi or Blood stagnation, of course we must

treat this manifestation of imbalance, and that must be our first, but IMHO,

NEVER, our only

goal.  BTW, for those interested, the Samra DAOM is specifically in Pain

management.   Thus far I am enjoying it immensely.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

--- On Mon, 2/9/09, Benjamin Hawes, L.Ac. <bhawes wrote:

 

Benjamin Hawes, L.Ac. <bhawes

Re: Physical Therapists doing " Dry needling " . How is this

different

Chinese Medicine

Monday, February 9, 2009, 9:42 AM

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

hear hear!

hooray for common sense!

anything other than this is the practice of religion, i.e. " subtle "

(unprovable) results determined by the practitioner' s own metrics and

having nothing to do with how the patient actually feels in the end.

most of my patients in the beginning of my practice came from other

practitioners who were treating the " root " with no observable change in

the patients' pain. the patients kept on going because they were told

they had to " deeply shift " their constitutions in order for the pain to

" truly " heal.

 

that's a bunch of b.s., frankly. It is disrespectful to the patients,

who want to get out of pain, and it is unsupported by any evidence

whatsoever beyond a self-referential world of gurus and texts.

 

being just out of school, knowing almost nothing, I was able to help

these folks feel better in a consistent, lasting manner, and it's why,

eight years later, I'm still in business.

 

oh, and anyone who says you can't alter spinal alignment instantly using

distal points has never tried. it's easy, it works every time, and it

fixes the causes of pain in most cases. EOS.

 

Ben Hawes, L.Ac.

 

Re: Response to the recent thread regarding Tan/Chen/Tung styles

of

<http://groups. / group/Traditiona l_Chinese_ Medicine/ message/31997;

_ylc=X3oDMTJyYmU 3aHJsBF9TAzk3MzU 5NzE1BGdycElkAzk 0OTU5NzcEZ3Jwc3B

JZAMxNzA1MDYwODE 0BG1zZ0lkAzMxOTk 3BHNlYwNkbXNnBHN sawN2bXNnBHN0aW1

lAzEyMzQwMjcwNDI ->

 

Posted by: " Donald Snow " don83407 (AT) msn (DOT) com

<don83407 (AT) msn (DOT) com?Subject=%20Re% 3A%20Response% 20to%20the% 20recent%

20thread% 20regarding% 20Tan%2FChen% 2FTung%20styles% 20of%20>

daomsnow <http://profiles. / daomsnow>

 

Fri Feb 6, 2009 1:07 pm (PST)

 

To me, a result is the elimination of the pain and the problem that

causes the pain. Not much value system there. The problem either is,

or it isn't. Whatever make that particular problem go away is the

superior method.

 

Don Snow, DAOM, MPH, LAc

 

--

ATTENTION: Protected by Federal Law!

The documents accompanying this transmission contain confidential health care

information that is legally privileged and intended for the below-named

individual or entity only. The recipient of this document is prohibited from

disclosing its contents and is required by law to destroy this information once

authorized fulfillment is complete. If you have received this transmission in

error, please contact sender immediately.

 

 

[Guest guest]

I've been doing a lot of political work around this issue, and I do acupuncture

and have

been well trained in anatomically based dry needling technique. When I learned

dry

needling, it was taught as an acupuncture technique, one among many. While the

scope of

acupuncture encompasses much more than what is now know as " dry needling, " " dry

needling " is definitely an acupuncture technique.

 

What the political arguments have come to is what is in the mind of the

practitioner:

whether the needle handler is thinking in western medical language, or chinese

medical

language. Acupuncturists allowing western medical practitioners to successfully

make the

distinction that dry needling technique is based solely on thinking in

anatomical terms

and western science opens the door for poorly trained western acupuncturists to

engage in

large portions of our practice, bill, and get reimbursed at higher rates for it

with little or

no education.

 

I don't think it helps us as a profession to define dry needling as something

separate and

distinct from acupuncture. I get the distinction (we do a whole system), but if

we draw that

distinction, that we practice an energetic system, we leave the door open for

other

practitioners to say that what they do is different in that they own western

medical

terminology, and do not need our archaic (their words, not mine!) system.

 

I much prefer to practice an integrated medicine, encompassing techniques both

traditional and modern.

 

Just as there are generalists, there are also specialists, and of the

specialists who are my

teachers, and of the specialists who are my colleagues and students, some speak

western

anatomy quite well. (You could do that class in other parts of the country,

Alon, and we'd

be rapt.) We can freely converse with other western medical practitioners who do

what is

called dry needling. We can also talk about yin and yang and blockage and pulse

balancing

and zang fu...

 

A PT researcher named Jan Dommerholt is publishing about this issue. To get a

glimpse of

the western argument that has been successful in allowing PTs to practice

acupuncture,

see this link for last summer's Qi Unity Report. Scroll down halfway to read my

response:

 

http://www.aaaomonline.info/qiunity/08/07/issue.html#3

 

Valerie Hobbs

Avid dry needler, motor point needler, trigger point needler, meridian

therapist, dabbling

daoist acupuncturist, TCM herbalist, western herbalist, scientist, reader of

research

 

 

Chinese Medicine , " margi.macdonald "

<margi.macdonald wrote:

>

> Chinese Medicine , " Alon Marcus "

> <alonmarcus@> wrote:

> >

> " I am not talking about " acupuncture, " ie dry needling according to

> oriental medical principals. I am talking about anatomically based dry

> needling. "

>

>

> Hi Alon,

> yes indeed; the two therapies - as we know - are distinct, and so too

> are the needling techniques.

>

> I tried to find the original post in this thread, because at the back

> of my mind, is the sense that whomever first posted, may have tapped

> into the understanding that lay people - patients - have of being needled.

>

> I find in my own - Australian - experience, that people who come to

> TCM acupuncturists for whatever reason, have by now, often heard of

> physios, chiros etc who needle people, or have perhaps received some

> dry needling treatments.

> In their minds, there is usually no difference between 'dry needling'

> and acupuncture, especially in the context of musculo-skeletal

> presentations.

> I have observed that dry needlers are usually very good at selling the

> 'gee-whizz' factor of their technique

>

> Anecdotally, in our country, it seems there are more incidences of

> harm caused by dry-needling, than by acupuncture, though no-one would

> really know.

> With the exception of one state registration board, the rest of us are

> unregistered, and pretty much self-regulated, being overseen by our

> professional associations, who might take disciplinary action for a

> few things, like insurance fraud, and unprofessional conduct, but not

> for adverse events.

>

> And so we get back to the same ol' same old, but vital issue of

> needing to educate our patients about what it is we do as TCM

> acupuncturists, and why the work we do is safe, valuable, credible,

> useful, and not to be taken lightly.

>

> Margi

>

[Guest guest]

Unless I've missed something vital along the way here, no one is suggesting

that we should only treat pain and ignore deeper issues. The point I tried

to make a few days ago - and which is still being somehow lost in the

shuffle here - is that Balance Method/Meridian-style treatments DON'T JUST

ADDRESS PAIN. One can successfully treat internal medicine issues with

these modalities and balance in the physical, mental/emotional and spiritual

levels can be affected. BTW ALL of my patients have emotional issues

contributing to their health problems and the alleviation of pain can go a

long way in bringing positive and lasting effects on deeper levels.

Kim Blankenship

 

 

 

 

On Mon, Feb 9, 2009 at 11:41 AM, wrote:

 

> I also absolutely agree, HOWEVER, there is amelioration of pain and

> there is blocking of pain. Western biomedicine takes the approach of

> attacking the pain at all costs. That can mean injections to numb the pain

> (nerve blocks) , using pharmacological intervention to alter the sensation

> of pain, or surgery to sever the nerve in extreme cases. I find these

> approaches unacceptable. They are typical of Western biomedicine's using

> elephants to kill flies. Of course, a side benefit of Chinese medicine,

> using the modalities which we have gone to school to learn and practice with

> proficiency is the amelioration of pain. But should not our goal always be

> to put our patient's in balance, treating the root as well as the pain, with

> the goal of preventing the pain from returning, G-d willing? Whether the

> pain is from Qi or Blood stagnation, of course we must treat this

> manifestation of imbalance, and that must be our first, but IMHO, NEVER, our

> only

> goal. BTW, for those interested, the Samra DAOM is specifically in Pain

> management. Thus far I am enjoying it immensely.

>

>

>

>

>

>

> --- On Mon, 2/9/09, Benjamin Hawes, L.Ac.

<bhawes<bhawes%40cortezacupuncture.com>>

> wrote:

>

> Benjamin Hawes, L.Ac.

<bhawes<bhawes%40cortezacupuncture.com>

> >

> Re: Physical Therapists doing " Dry needling " . How is this

> different

> To:

Chinese Medicine <Chinese Medicine%40yaho\

ogroups.com>

> Monday, February 9, 2009, 9:42 AM

>

>

> hear hear!

> hooray for common sense!

> anything other than this is the practice of religion, i.e. " subtle "

> (unprovable) results determined by the practitioner' s own metrics and

> having nothing to do with how the patient actually feels in the end.

> most of my patients in the beginning of my practice came from other

> practitioners who were treating the " root " with no observable change in

> the patients' pain. the patients kept on going because they were told

> they had to " deeply shift " their constitutions in order for the pain to

> " truly " heal.

>

> that's a bunch of b.s., frankly. It is disrespectful to the patients,

> who want to get out of pain, and it is unsupported by any evidence

> whatsoever beyond a self-referential world of gurus and texts.

>

> being just out of school, knowing almost nothing, I was able to help

> these folks feel better in a consistent, lasting manner, and it's why,

> eight years later, I'm still in business.

>

> oh, and anyone who says you can't alter spinal alignment instantly using

> distal points has never tried. it's easy, it works every time, and it

> fixes the causes of pain in most cases. EOS.

>

> Ben Hawes, L.Ac.

>

> Re: Response to the recent thread regarding Tan/Chen/Tung styles

> of

> <http://groups. / group/Traditiona l_Chinese_ Medicine/

> message/31997; _ylc=X3oDMTJyYmU 3aHJsBF9TAzk3MzU 5NzE1BGdycElkAzk

> 0OTU5NzcEZ3Jwc3B JZAMxNzA1MDYwODE 0BG1zZ0lkAzMxOTk 3BHNlYwNkbXNnBHN

> sawN2bXNnBHN0aW1 lAzEyMzQwMjcwNDI ->

>

> Posted by: " Donald Snow " don83407 (AT) msn (DOT) com

> <don83407 (AT) msn (DOT) com?Subject=%20Re% 3A%20Response% 20to%20the%

> 20recent% 20thread% 20regarding% 20Tan%2FChen% 2FTung%20styles% 20of%20>

> daomsnow <http://profiles. / daomsnow>

>

> Fri Feb 6, 2009 1:07 pm (PST)

>

> To me, a result is the elimination of the pain and the problem that

> causes the pain. Not much value system there. The problem either is,

> or it isn't. Whatever make that particular problem go away is the

> superior method.

>

> Don Snow, DAOM, MPH, LAc

>

> --

> ATTENTION: Protected by Federal Law!

> The documents accompanying this transmission contain confidential health

> care information that is legally privileged and intended for the below-named

> individual or entity only. The recipient of this document is prohibited from

> disclosing its contents and is required by law to destroy this information

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> transmission in error, please contact sender immediately.

>

>

[Guest guest]

Hey Kokko

 

> A big difference is that those who go into MD school tend to be more left

brained, while TCM students are very often encouraged to be right brained. Very

often, MDs have a hard time studying TCM, because it tends to be more holistic

in it's makeup.

 

You make some great points, for sure...

but how about this part?

In grade school we looked at cork through a microscope, then creek water

and then water that had pepper corns soaking for a few days. Cell theory

- biology - We were already doing science experiments and training in

the same basic material and thinking that leads to biology and anatomy.

Those so inclined probably took more life science classes in high school

and quite a bit in pre-med during undergrad studies....THEN they went

into deeper studies of these same sciences in Med school.

I've taught foundations to a few students....it is rare to find someone

that has any real understanding of yin-yang theory or 5 phase theory.

From this beginning we expect people to learn to be " doctors " (gasp) in

3 or 4 short years.

Add to this that many are KVA or KAV and are expected to go through more

VAK and AVK schooling

 

The best TCM school would be the one that understands HOW to teach the

material in a way that is accessible to the type of student interested

in learning the medicine.

 

Stephen Woodley LAc

--

www.shanghanlunseminars.com

 

--

http://www.fastmail.fm - Choose from over 50 domains or use your own

[Guest guest]

Stephen,

That's a good point about learning yin and yang theory and five phases in

only a few short years in the West.

In Asia, it's integrated into everything, just like pop culture is being

burned into our minds on a constant impulse here in America.

 

That's another reason that a 4 year bachelor degree education can help

prepare students for seeing things in dialectics and archetypes, as well as

pattern recognition and differentiation. As an undergrad, I was introduced

to yin and yang through philosophy classes, including Hegel's borrowed

dialectics, as well as the obvious Daoism. The five phases were already

being thought about in music theory classes (the five tone scale) and in

film criticism classes (with color and personality archetypes).

 

The biggest response I get are from those who have a really hard time with

pinyin

for remembering single herbs and formulas long-term (post quizzes).

We've had this discussion before and I concur that Mandarin classes are one

of the best ways to connect the dots.

Then, students would have to learn only one new language (TCM), not two.

 

K.

 

 

 

On Tue, Feb 10, 2009 at 5:24 PM, stephen woodley <learntcmwrote:

 

> Hey Kokko

>

>

> > A big difference is that those who go into MD school tend to be more left

> brained, while TCM students are very often encouraged to be right brained.

> Very often, MDs have a hard time studying TCM, because it tends to be more

> holistic in it's makeup.

>

> You make some great points, for sure...

> but how about this part?

> In grade school we looked at cork through a microscope, then creek water

> and then water that had pepper corns soaking for a few days. Cell theory

> - biology - We were already doing science experiments and training in

> the same basic material and thinking that leads to biology and anatomy.

> Those so inclined probably took more life science classes in high school

> and quite a bit in pre-med during undergrad studies....THEN they went

> into deeper studies of these same sciences in Med school.

> I've taught foundations to a few students....it is rare to find someone

> that has any real understanding of yin-yang theory or 5 phase theory.

> From this beginning we expect people to learn to be " doctors " (gasp) in

> 3 or 4 short years.

> Add to this that many are KVA or KAV and are expected to go through more

> VAK and AVK schooling

>

> The best TCM school would be the one that understands HOW to teach the

> material in a way that is accessible to the type of student interested

> in learning the medicine.

>

> Stephen Woodley LAc

> --

> www.shanghanlunseminars.com

>

> --

> http://www.fastmail.fm - Choose from over 50 domains or use your own

>

>

>

 

 

 

--

 

www.tcmreview.com

 

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As far as teachings go, do not rely upon the words alone, but rely upon the

meaning that underlies them.

Regarding the meaning, do not rely upon the provisional meaning alone, but

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And regarding the definitive meaning, do not rely upon ordinary

consciousness, but rely upon wisdom awareness.