Physical Therapists doing Dry needling. How is this different from acupuncture?

[Guest guest]

Hi all,

In at least 18 states and growing... physical therapists are doing " dry

needling " ,

which is somehow different from acupuncture, at least in metaphor.

http://www.gemtinfo.com/physical-therapy/Dry-Needling-is-accepted-internationall\

y-as-a-tool-of-physical-therapy/page63.html

 

http://www.dgs.eu.com/dateien/dgsa/downloads/Dry%20Needling%20in%20Orthopaedic%2\

0Physical%20Therapy%20Practice.pdf

The author of the article link also teaches " dry needling " courses to

predominantly physical therapists.

He says that " dry needling " is nothing like acupuncture...

Except that needles are inserted into trigger points (kori / ashi points)

not with the intent of moving " energy " around.

 

Pretty sneaky ...

 

So, what if anyone can do " dry needling " ? Why did we go to 4 years of

school and take our licensing exams...

Mind as well be MD, DC, DDS or PT. They can all do what we do in most

states now.

 

K.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

--

 

www.tcmreview.com

 

The Four Reliances:

Do not rely upon the individual, but rely upon the teaching.

As far as teachings go, do not rely upon the words alone, but rely upon the

meaning that underlies them.

Regarding the meaning, do not rely upon the provisional meaning alone, but

rely upon the definitive meaning.

And regarding the definitive meaning, do not rely upon ordinary

consciousness, but rely upon wisdom awareness.

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

John,

 

Can I share your post with the PCOM email list?  We are having a related

conversation there about scope of practice, and having " cooperative "

relationships with " medical acupuncturists " .

 

Thank you,

Andrea Beth

 

 

Traditional Oriental Medicine

Happy Hours in the CALM Center

1770 E. Villa Drive, Suite 5

Cottonwood, AZ  86326

(928) 274-1373

 

 

--- On Wed, 2/4/09, <johnkokko wrote:

<johnkokko

Physical Therapists doing " Dry needling " . How is this different

from acupuncture?

Chinese Medicine

Wednesday, February 4, 2009, 12:01 AM

 

Hi all,

In at least 18 states and growing... physical therapists are doing " dry

needling " ,

which is somehow different from acupuncture, at least in metaphor.

http://www.gemtinfo.com/physical-therapy/Dry-Needling-is-accepted-internationall\

y-as-a-tool-of-physical-therapy/page63.html

 

http://www.dgs.eu.com/dateien/dgsa/downloads/Dry%20Needling%20in%20Orthopaedic%2\

0Physical%20Therapy%20Practice.pdf

The author of the article link also teaches " dry needling " courses to

predominantly physical therapists.

He says that " dry needling " is nothing like acupuncture...

Except that needles are inserted into trigger points (kori / ashi points)

not with the intent of moving " energy " around.

 

Pretty sneaky ...

 

So, what if anyone can do " dry needling " ? Why did we go to 4 years

of

school and take our licensing exams...

Mind as well be MD, DC, DDS or PT. They can all do what we do in most

states now.

 

K.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

--

 

www.tcmreview.com

 

The Four Reliances:

Do not rely upon the individual, but rely upon the teaching.

As far as teachings go, do not rely upon the words alone, but rely upon the

meaning that underlies them.

Regarding the meaning, do not rely upon the provisional meaning alone, but

rely upon the definitive meaning.

And regarding the definitive meaning, do not rely upon ordinary

consciousness, but rely upon wisdom awareness.

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Andrea,

Yes... please share the message and here is more in-depth info about CA:

 

In California, PTs " need to be certified by the board (PT board) to perform

tissue perforation " .

Article 11 in the CA Physical Therapy Regulations on Kinesiological

Electromyography certification:

http://www.ptbc.ca.gov/laws_regs/regulations.shtml

 

This includes only *200 clock hours of training* in this specialization,

in order to perform " dry needling " aka trigger-point acupuncture.

 

*ARTICLE 11. ELECTROMYOGRAPHY CERTIFICATION*

*1399.60. Definitions.*

As used in these regulations:

(a) " Electroneuromyography " means the performance of tissue penetration for

the purpose of evaluating neuromuscular performance, and includes the

evaluation of specific abnormal potentials and evoked responses.

(b) " Kinesiological electromyography " means the study, including tissue

penetration, of the phasic activity of individual or multiple muscles in

relation to another physical or physiological event or exercise and does not

include the evaluation of specific abnormal potentials or evoked responses.

**

In Colorado, and similarly in other states, PTs only need *46 hours of

training* to do " dry needling " .

The seminars offered by GEMt (I and II) span 6 days total : (48 hours)

http://www.gemtinfo.com/physical-therapy/Trigger-Point-Dry-Needling-Level-II-Tra\

ining/page18.html

 

At Samuel Merritt college, in CA, the doctoral PT program runs 33 months

(less than 3 years).

So, with less than 3 years of coursework, plus 200 clock hours, you can be a

Doctor of physical therapy and also legally perform tissue perforation ( " dry

needling " ) in the state of CA.

 

To compare that with CA acupuncturist training, 3000 hours (3 1/2 - 4 years)

of training,

plus an extra 1200 hours (over 26 months) in order to be called a " Doctor "

in order to have the same scope of practice (dry needling, topical

medication application, massage therapy)

and herbal consultation (anyone can do this)

as a Doctor of physical therapy (33 month + 200 hour training).

 

In CA, MDs, DOs and Dentists can perform acupuncture without further

training (most take the Helms course as an option).

Chiropractors can not practice " acupuncture " or " dry needling " in CA without

an acupuncture license,

because tissue perforation ie. " breaking the skin " is not in their scope of

practice.

 

The Helms Medical Institute course has a 220 hour and 300 hour option.

This consists solely of one weekend, plus home-video study.

http://www.hmieducation.com/course_desc.htm

 

K.

 

 

>

>

--

 

www.tcmreview.com

 

The Four Reliances:

Do not rely upon the individual, but rely upon the teaching.

As far as teachings go, do not rely upon the words alone, but rely upon the

meaning that underlies them.

Regarding the meaning, do not rely upon the provisional meaning alone, but

rely upon the definitive meaning.

And regarding the definitive meaning, do not rely upon ordinary

consciousness, but rely upon wisdom awareness.

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Chinese Medicine ,

<johnkokko wrote:

>

" dry needling " is nothing like acupuncture... "

 

Too right.

It's not.

 

Ever heard of a pneumothorax caused by a classically and correctly

trained acupuncturist?

Something dry-needlers are up to is - anecdotally - increasing the

incidence of lung collapse in the Australian context of 'being stuck

with needles to relieve pain'.

 

I did a bit of reading about 'dry needling' a couple of years ago, and

spoke to some physios who are proponents of it - seems they like their

needles big, and a little rough, and desire to induce micro-tissue

damage, thus deliberately setting up local - inflammatory? - responses.

Fine, elegant, surgical-grade, high-quality needles aren't usually in

their tool kits.

They're also very fond of spraying the area to be needled, with some

kind of freezing cold product, as part of the technique - eeek!!

 

Our primary professional association has called for Aussie

acupuncturists to note and document harm caused to folk by

non-acupuncturists performing 'dry needling'.

[Guest guest]

Dear group, Happy Lunar Chinese New Year of Ox.

 

My previous thread #31042, Red flag for non free-handed style

acupuncturists, has already pointed out that if we acupuncturists are

alienated ourselves from the teaching of Chinese medicine and meridian

theories, we are rootless. We will become orphans and will be abandoned

eventually.

 

When the going gets tough, the tough gets going; we should sharpen our

clinical efficacy as healers. " Dry needling " deals with trigger points

that help muscles and tendons only. Acupuncturists should be in a

higher level, dealing with more sophisicated systems such as immune

system or brain issue. That distinguishes us as a medical profession.

 

SUNG, Yuk-ming, PhD (Chengdu), BA (Houston), L Ac. (Hong Kong)

 

9/F,166 Hennessy Plaza,

Henessy Rd., Wanchai,

Hong Kong

(852)9530 9007

[Guest guest]

I support your position completely. . .

 

 

 

On Feb 4, 2009, at 8:37 AM, sxm2649 wrote:

 

> Dear group, Happy Lunar Chinese New Year of Ox.

>

> My previous thread #31042, Red flag for non free-handed style

> acupuncturists, has already pointed out that if we acupuncturists are

> alienated ourselves from the teaching of Chinese medicine and meridian

> theories, we are rootless. We will become orphans and will be

> abandoned

> eventually.

>

> When the going gets tough, the tough gets going; we should sharpen our

> clinical efficacy as healers. " Dry needling " deals with trigger points

> that help muscles and tendons only. Acupuncturists should be in a

> higher level, dealing with more sophisicated systems such as immune

> system or brain issue. That distinguishes us as a medical profession.

>

> SUNG, Yuk-ming, PhD (Chengdu), BA (Houston), L Ac. (Hong Kong)

>

> 9/F,166 Hennessy Plaza,

> Henessy Rd., Wanchai,

> Hong Kong

> (852)9530 9007

>

>

>

 

 

Chair, Department of Herbal Medicine

Pacific College of Oriental Medicine

San Diego, Ca. 92122

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Thank you, John.  I just sent it off.  The conversation on the PCOM list is

about medical acupuncture, and I find it remarkable that similar issues are

being discussed on this list as well.

 

Andrea Beth

 

 

Traditional Oriental Medicine

Happy Hours in the CALM Center

1770 E. Villa Drive, Suite 5

Cottonwood, AZ  86326

(928) 274-1373

 

 

--- On Wed, 2/4/09, <johnkokko wrote:

<johnkokko

Re: Physical Therapists doing " Dry needling " . How is this

different from acupuncture?

Chinese Medicine

Wednesday, February 4, 2009, 5:49 AM

 

Andrea,

Yes... please share the message and here is more in-depth info about CA:

 

In California, PTs " need to be certified by the board (PT board) to

perform

tissue perforation " .

Article 11 in the CA Physical Therapy Regulations on Kinesiological

Electromyography certification:

http://www.ptbc.ca.gov/laws_regs/regulations.shtml

 

This includes only *200 clock hours of training* in this specialization,

in order to perform " dry needling " aka trigger-point acupuncture.

 

*ARTICLE 11. ELECTROMYOGRAPHY CERTIFICATION*

*1399.60. Definitions.*

As used in these regulations:

(a) " Electroneuromyography " means the performance of tissue

penetration for

the purpose of evaluating neuromuscular performance, and includes the

evaluation of specific abnormal potentials and evoked responses.

(b) " Kinesiological electromyography " means the study, including

tissue

penetration, of the phasic activity of individual or multiple muscles in

relation to another physical or physiological event or exercise and does not

include the evaluation of specific abnormal potentials or evoked responses.

**

In Colorado, and similarly in other states, PTs only need *46 hours of

training* to do " dry needling " .

The seminars offered by GEMt (I and II) span 6 days total : (48 hours)

http://www.gemtinfo.com/physical-therapy/Trigger-Point-Dry-Needling-Level-II-Tra\

ining/page18.html

 

At Samuel Merritt college, in CA, the doctoral PT program runs 33 months

(less than 3 years).

So, with less than 3 years of coursework, plus 200 clock hours, you can be a

Doctor of physical therapy and also legally perform tissue perforation

( " dry

needling " ) in the state of CA.

 

To compare that with CA acupuncturist training, 3000 hours (3 1/2 - 4 years)

of training,

plus an extra 1200 hours (over 26 months) in order to be called a

" Doctor "

in order to have the same scope of practice (dry needling, topical

medication application, massage therapy)

and herbal consultation (anyone can do this)

as a Doctor of physical therapy (33 month + 200 hour training).

 

In CA, MDs, DOs and Dentists can perform acupuncture without further

training (most take the Helms course as an option).

Chiropractors can not practice " acupuncture " or " dry

needling " in CA without

an acupuncture license,

because tissue perforation ie. " breaking the skin " is not in their

scope of

practice.

 

The Helms Medical Institute course has a 220 hour and 300 hour option.

This consists solely of one weekend, plus home-video study.

http://www.hmieducation.com/course_desc.htm

 

K.

 

 

>

>

--

 

www.tcmreview.com

 

The Four Reliances:

Do not rely upon the individual, but rely upon the teaching.

As far as teachings go, do not rely upon the words alone, but rely upon the

meaning that underlies them.

Regarding the meaning, do not rely upon the provisional meaning alone, but

rely upon the definitive meaning.

And regarding the definitive meaning, do not rely upon ordinary

consciousness, but rely upon wisdom awareness.

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Yes, Margi.  I know of a colleague who caused a pneumothorax.  She is a

classically-trained licensed acupuncturist.  It can and does happen, even to

" us " .  It is important that we know of this possibility, even though its

occurrence is rare.  We also should know how to recognize it, and what to do for

our patients when it happens. 

 

My friend was appropriately horrified.  She took proper care of her patient, and

changed her choice of needles.

 

Andrea Beth

 

Traditional Oriental Medicine

Happy Hours in the CALM Center

1770 E. Villa Drive, Suite 5

Cottonwood, AZ  86326

(928) 274-1373

 

 

--- On Wed, 2/4/09, margi.macdonald <margi.macdonald wrote:

margi.macdonald <margi.macdonald

Re: Physical Therapists doing " Dry needling " . How is this

different from acupuncture?

Chinese Medicine

Wednesday, February 4, 2009, 6:46 AM

 

Chinese Medicine ,

<johnkokko wrote:

>

" dry needling " is nothing like acupuncture... "

 

Too right.

It's not.

 

Ever heard of a pneumothorax caused by a classically and correctly

trained acupuncturist?

Something dry-needlers are up to is - anecdotally - increasing the

incidence of lung collapse in the Australian context of 'being stuck

with needles to relieve pain'.

 

I did a bit of reading about 'dry needling' a couple of years ago, and

spoke to some physios who are proponents of it - seems they like their

needles big, and a little rough, and desire to induce micro-tissue

damage, thus deliberately setting up local - inflammatory? - responses.

Fine, elegant, surgical-grade, high-quality needles aren't usually in

their tool kits.

They're also very fond of spraying the area to be needled, with some

kind of freezing cold product, as part of the technique - eeek!!

 

Our primary professional association has called for Aussie

acupuncturists to note and document harm caused to folk by

non-acupuncturists performing 'dry needling'.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

---

 

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http://www.chinesemedicinetimes.com

 

Help build the world's largest online encyclopedia for Chinese medicine and

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and adjust

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Please consider the environment and only print this message if absolutely

necessary.

[Guest guest]

Hi Margi:

 

--Margi-

Our primary professional association has called for Aussie

acupuncturists to note and document harm caused to folk by

non-acupuncturists performing 'dry needling'.

---

 

Thanks for bringing this up. This is the type of thing that we need to be able

to as a profession, not so much define which style of acupuncture is better or

whatever, but to protect ourselves.

 

If we honestly look at any of the standard medical professions in western

countries we see little science and evidence and lots of politicking. If we are

going to play the game *they* want us to play (Evidence Based Medicine these

days) we are going to lose, because *they* don't play this game.

 

I have not heard of arthroscopic surgery of the knee being kicked out of the

profession despite the evidence stacked against it. My patients still come from,

and go to that procedure:

 

The New England Journal of Medicine performed a study which included a placebo

arm and found that placebo did as well as the surgery. The conclusion is

obvious, and the defense was immediate - again not science, but politics (and

yes, possibly a valid clinical viewpoint):

 

" The impact of this article on the public, the insurance industry,

and the government has been significant and has raised

a great deal of controversy. The conclusions reached by its authors

are a good example of why research, particularly clinical

research, should be subjected to peer review by experts in that

specific field, and results validated, before such information is

released to the public. "

RW Jackson, BUMC Proceedings 2003;16:27–29

 

The impact was " significant " but the surgery continues largely uninterrupted.

 

We need to have a strong voice, in my opinion. That's all, a strong voice.

 

Hugo

 

________________________________

Hugo Ramiro

http://middlemedicine.wordpress.com

http://www.chinesemedicaltherapies.org

 

 

 

 

 

________________________________

margi.macdonald <margi.macdonald

 

Wednesday, 4 February, 2009 8:46:52

Re: Physical Therapists doing " Dry needling " . How is this

different from acupuncture?

 

 

Traditional_ Chinese_Medicine ,

<johnkokko@. ..> wrote:

>

" dry needling " is nothing like acupuncture. .. "

 

Too right.

It's not.

 

 

Ever heard of a pneumothorax caused by a classically and correctly

trained acupuncturist?

Something dry-needlers are up to is - anecdotally - increasing the

incidence of lung collapse in the Australian context of 'being stuck

with needles to relieve pain'.

 

I did a bit of reading about 'dry needling' a couple of years ago, and

spoke to some physios who are proponents of it - seems they like their

needles big, and a little rough, and desire to induce micro-tissue

damage, thus deliberately setting up local - inflammatory? - responses.

Fine, elegant, surgical-grade, high-quality needles aren't usually in

their tool kits.

They're also very fond of spraying the area to be needled, with some

kind of freezing cold product, as part of the technique - eeek!!

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Chinese Medicine , Andrea Beth

Damsky < wrote:

>

> Yes, Margi.� I know of a colleague who caused a pneumothorax.� She

is a classically-trained licensed acupuncturist.� It can and does

happen, even to " us " .� It is important that we know of this

possibility, even though its occurrence is rare.� We also should know

how to recognize it, and what to do for our patients when it happens.�

>

> My friend was appropriately horrified.� She took proper care of her

patient, and changed her choice of needles.

 

 

Hi Andrea, yes it is always possible that 'we' might cause

pnuemothorax... I once read - somewhere, the reference is only in my

head these days - that if each of us were to work for 120 yrs, we

would each cause 1 pneumothorax in that time.

 

To be accepted into my professional body - AACMA - you have to provide

written evidence that you can safely identify, and respond to, a

suspected pneumothorax.

 

What I see coming through in the Aust context is that dry-needlers are

less likely to be 'appropriatly horrified' than we might be, and would

be less likely to change needles or techniques, because 'dry-needling'

doesn't have the almost infinite possibility of technique, point

selection, needling style, and of course TCM diagnosis, that classical

acupuncture offers patients.

 

Previously an RN, I've observed that there's something about

practicing within the medical and paramedical realms which teaches

practitioners that if its a known risk, and the patient received

informed consent, then whilst not ok, to some extent, it's still 'all

in a day's work' that life-threatening events might be caused by

treatment.

 

I don't ever want to get into that mind-set, and I can see that

Angela's friend hasn't either.

 

Margi