Guest guest Posted January 27, 2009 Report Share Posted January 27, 2009 Hello group, I'm wondering if there is a difference in Dr Chen's or Dr Tan's I- Ching systems. Did Chens system come first? Also, for discussions sake....I wonder if the popularity of Dr Tan's system vs. TCM acupuncture has more to do with the effectivenss of meridian based styles in general vs. TCM pattern ID. Many practitioners are claiming how once they switched to Dr Tan's style, they saw much better results. Perhaps the many Japanese, French, and even Chinese based approaches that focus more on the meridians are generally more effective. At one of Dr Tan's seminars he said NEVER needle locally. I wonder what the more integrative practitioners would say about this..especially the ones focusing on trigger points, motor points and local tissue treatments. Thanks for any input on this topic. Dave Vitello Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 28, 2009 Report Share Posted January 28, 2009 David, Would you be good enough to pass along your web address that has the Dr. Chen book info. Thanks, Karin On Jan 27, 2009, at 7:29 PM, flyingstarsfengshui wrote: > Hi Dave: > > Dr. Chen created what is known as the Balance Method, a systematic > presentation of it, he moved to taiwan from china then to USA in the > 1970's. Dr. Tan studied his books and parts of his system. Dr. Tan > often says he studied Dr. Chao Chen and Master Tung at his workshop, > crediting them, which comprises the foundation of his teachings. > > Dr. Chen has much not commonly known. I wrote some articles for > Acupuncture Today on him and his system, you may want to red them. Dr. > Chen, his son Yu Chen, L.Ac. and myself translated and wrote a book on > his system you can get on my website. > > Many studied Dr. Chen's work, especially in the Chinese community. > > So Dr. Tan's ba gua/i ching balance method comes from Dr. Chen, i > usually bring a few of Dr. Chen's original book written in the 1970's > with me to workshops, half in chinese, half in english. His work on > the Eight Extras is also the base of the global method. > > regards, > > david > > Chinese Medicine , " dmvitello01 " > <dmvitello wrote: > > > > Hello group, > > > > I'm wondering if there is a difference in Dr Chen's or Dr Tan's I- > > Ching systems. Did Chens system come first? > > > > Also, for discussions sake....I wonder if the popularity of Dr Tan's > > system vs. TCM acupuncture has more to do with the effectivenss of > > meridian based styles in general vs. TCM pattern ID. Many > > practitioners are claiming how once they switched to Dr Tan's style, > > they saw much better results. > > > > Perhaps the many Japanese, French, and even Chinese based approaches > > that focus more on the meridians are generally more effective. > > > > At one of Dr Tan's seminars he said NEVER needle locally. I wonder > > what the more integrative practitioners would say about > > this..especially the ones focusing on trigger points, motor points > > and local tissue treatments. > > > > Thanks for any input on this topic. > > > > Dave Vitello > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 28, 2009 Report Share Posted January 28, 2009 Dr. Tan's Balance Method Scalp Acupuncture is actually Dr. Fang Yu Peng's Scalp method, and Systems 1, 2, 3 is Master Tung's system. As for the I Ching Balance Method, that is completely Dr. Chen Chao's work. Clock Opposite and Neighbor may come from Manaka system. Dr. Tan's use of Master Tung's points is actually justifying Master Tung's acupuncture through the basics of Master Tung's systems of channel relationships and imaging methods. Also much of Dr. Tan's work on Master Tung's is based on Taiwan's Li Guo Zhen's works. Dr. Tan is a great lecturer and creator of his 12 point and 8 point methods which have merit. On Tue, Jan 27, 2009 at 4:29 PM, flyingstarsfengshui < flyingstarsfengshui wrote: > Hi Dave: > > Dr. Chen created what is known as the Balance Method, a systematic > presentation of it, he moved to taiwan from china then to USA in the > 1970's. Dr. Tan studied his books and parts of his system. Dr. Tan > often says he studied Dr. Chao Chen and Master Tung at his workshop, > crediting them, which comprises the foundation of his teachings. > > Dr. Chen has much not commonly known. I wrote some articles for > Acupuncture Today on him and his system, you may want to red them. Dr. > Chen, his son Yu Chen, L.Ac. and myself translated and wrote a book on > his system you can get on my website. > > Many studied Dr. Chen's work, especially in the Chinese community. > > So Dr. Tan's ba gua/i ching balance method comes from Dr. Chen, i > usually bring a few of Dr. Chen's original book written in the 1970's > with me to workshops, half in chinese, half in english. His work on > the Eight Extras is also the base of the global method. > > regards, > > david > > --- In Chinese Medicine <Chinese Medicine%40yaho\ ogroups.com>, > " dmvitello01 " > <dmvitello wrote: > > > > Hello group, > > > > I'm wondering if there is a difference in Dr Chen's or Dr Tan's I- > > Ching systems. Did Chens system come first? > > > > Also, for discussions sake....I wonder if the popularity of Dr Tan's > > system vs. TCM acupuncture has more to do with the effectivenss of > > meridian based styles in general vs. TCM pattern ID. Many > > practitioners are claiming how once they switched to Dr Tan's style, > > they saw much better results. > > > > Perhaps the many Japanese, French, and even Chinese based approaches > > that focus more on the meridians are generally more effective. > > > > At one of Dr Tan's seminars he said NEVER needle locally. I wonder > > what the more integrative practitioners would say about > > this..especially the ones focusing on trigger points, motor points > > and local tissue treatments. > > > > Thanks for any input on this topic. > > > > Dave Vitello > > > > > -- Robert Chu, PhD, L.Ac. QME chusauli See my webpages at: www.chusaulei.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 28, 2009 Report Share Posted January 28, 2009 A striking feature of Tan's system is that it takes so little time, the clients do not need to disrobe, and you don't really need a diagnosis, you can do the whole thing is a bout 10 minutes. Since insurance reimbursements and cash fees are declining, it seems to be the obvious response on the side of practitioners to just devote less time and see more clients per hour. Plus the underlying disorder is never remedied, consequently the client has to return and Tan also recommends frequent treatments. Interestingly enough Tan himself makes no bones about how financially rewarding his system is, it is indeed the perfect match for contemporary medicine. Regards, Angela Pfaffenberger, Ph.D. angelapfa www.InnerhealthSalem.com Phone: 503 364 3022 - dmvitello01 Chinese Medicine Tuesday, January 27, 2009 3:30 PM I Ching Acupuncture- Chen and Tan Hello group, I'm wondering if there is a difference in Dr Chen's or Dr Tan's I- Ching systems. Did Chens system come first? Also, for discussions sake....I wonder if the popularity of Dr Tan's system vs. TCM acupuncture has more to do with the effectivenss of meridian based styles in general vs. TCM pattern ID. Many practitioners are claiming how once they switched to Dr Tan's style, they saw much better results. Perhaps the many Japanese, French, and even Chinese based approaches that focus more on the meridians are generally more effective. At one of Dr Tan's seminars he said NEVER needle locally. I wonder what the more integrative practitioners would say about this..especially the ones focusing on trigger points, motor points and local tissue treatments. Thanks for any input on this topic. Dave Vitello Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 28, 2009 Report Share Posted January 28, 2009 These are supposed to be advantages in the practice of a healing art? I'd rather sell insurance than practice Chinese medicine like this. . . I think it is highly unethical not to try to treat the underlying disorder, so that patients keep coming back. I assume this e-mail is tongue-in-cheek. . . On Jan 28, 2009, at 10:24 AM, Angela Pfaffenberger, PH.D. wrote: > A striking feature of Tan's system is that it takes so little time, > the clients do not need to disrobe, and you don't really need a > diagnosis, you can do the whole thing is a bout 10 minutes. Since > insurance reimbursements and cash fees are declining, it seems to be > the obvious response on the side of practitioners to just devote > less time and see more clients per hour. Plus the underlying > disorder is never remedied, consequently the client has to return > and Tan also recommends frequent treatments. Interestingly enough > Tan himself makes no bones about how financially rewarding his > system is, it is indeed the perfect match for contemporary medicine. > > Regards, > Angela Pfaffenberger, Ph.D. > > angelapfa > > www.InnerhealthSalem.com > > Phone: 503 364 3022 > - > dmvitello01 > Chinese Medicine > Tuesday, January 27, 2009 3:30 PM > I Ching Acupuncture- Chen and Tan > > Hello group, > > I'm wondering if there is a difference in Dr Chen's or Dr Tan's I- > Ching systems. Did Chens system come first? > > Also, for discussions sake....I wonder if the popularity of Dr Tan's > system vs. TCM acupuncture has more to do with the effectivenss of > meridian based styles in general vs. TCM pattern ID. Many > practitioners are claiming how once they switched to Dr Tan's style, > they saw much better results. > > Perhaps the many Japanese, French, and even Chinese based approaches > that focus more on the meridians are generally more effective. > > At one of Dr Tan's seminars he said NEVER needle locally. I wonder > what the more integrative practitioners would say about > this..especially the ones focusing on trigger points, motor points > and local tissue treatments. > > Thanks for any input on this topic. > > Dave Vitello > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 29, 2009 Report Share Posted January 29, 2009 I am not advocating this, however, when I meet Tan practitioners they tell me that they can now see more clients because it's so time saving, and I also noticed that Tan style is common in community acupuncture clinics. My own interest in Tan is to a certain degree motivated by that. ASH only pays for about 15 minutes of treatment now, (a fee that has remained unchanged for the last 12 years!!), and I do need to increase my client numbers. I listened to Tan myself in person when he came to town, he is VERY denigrating towards ideas, such as relieving Spleen qi deficiency or spending time with the client. He himself advocated his method by saying, you can see more people, because you don;to need to spend all this time. I am feeling a bit undecided about it, but when you needle Ling Ku, Ad Bay and have the client move around a bit, you are not treating an underlying disorder. But then you can argue that TCM is just on particular way of seeing a condition and maybe it's not necessary to work along that line, and we can just do channel clearing Tan style.. Regards, Angela Pfaffenberger, Ph.D. angelapfa www.InnerhealthSalem.com Phone: 503 364 3022 - Chinese Medicine Wednesday, January 28, 2009 10:56 AM Re: I Ching Acupuncture- Chen and Tan These are supposed to be advantages in the practice of a healing art? I'd rather sell insurance than practice Chinese medicine like this. . . I think it is highly unethical not to try to treat the underlying disorder, so that patients keep coming back. I assume this e-mail is tongue-in-cheek. . . On Jan 28, 2009, at 10:24 AM, Angela Pfaffenberger, PH.D. wrote: > A striking feature of Tan's system is that it takes so little time, > the clients do not need to disrobe, and you don't really need a > diagnosis, you can do the whole thing is a bout 10 minutes. Since > insurance reimbursements and cash fees are declining, it seems to be > the obvious response on the side of practitioners to just devote > less time and see more clients per hour. Plus the underlying > disorder is never remedied, consequently the client has to return > and Tan also recommends frequent treatments. Interestingly enough > Tan himself makes no bones about how financially rewarding his > system is, it is indeed the perfect match for contemporary medicine. > > Regards, > Angela Pfaffenberger, Ph.D. > > angelapfa > > www.InnerhealthSalem.com > > Phone: 503 364 3022 > - > dmvitello01 > Chinese Medicine > Tuesday, January 27, 2009 3:30 PM > I Ching Acupuncture- Chen and Tan > > Hello group, > > I'm wondering if there is a difference in Dr Chen's or Dr Tan's I- > Ching systems. Did Chens system come first? > > Also, for discussions sake....I wonder if the popularity of Dr Tan's > system vs. TCM acupuncture has more to do with the effectivenss of > meridian based styles in general vs. TCM pattern ID. Many > practitioners are claiming how once they switched to Dr Tan's style, > they saw much better results. > > Perhaps the many Japanese, French, and even Chinese based approaches > that focus more on the meridians are generally more effective. > > At one of Dr Tan's seminars he said NEVER needle locally. I wonder > what the more integrative practitioners would say about > this..especially the ones focusing on trigger points, motor points > and local tissue treatments. > > Thanks for any input on this topic. > > Dave Vitello > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 29, 2009 Report Share Posted January 29, 2009 Here's some interesting things that maybe you folks could share some info on. I've had excellent results using the balance method for joint or nerve pain, but not so much so for joint numbness. Why is this? Have people found balancing as effective for internal conditions, say insomnia? y.c. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 29, 2009 Report Share Posted January 29, 2009 I think people are missing the boat - TCM is an herbal diagnosis for herbals, the acupuncture should have a separate channel based diagnosis. This paradigm of acupunctrure and herbals sharing the same paradigm is rather recent innovation. Dr. Chen and Master Tung style acupuncture remains true to acupuncture's true roots of diagnosing by channel and treating by the main channels affected. On Wed, Jan 28, 2009 at 4:19 PM, Angela Pfaffenberger, PH.D. < angelapfa wrote: > I am not advocating this, however, when I meet Tan practitioners they > tell me that they can now see more clients because it's so time saving, and > I also noticed that Tan style is common in community acupuncture clinics. My > own interest in Tan is to a certain degree motivated by that. ASH only pays > for about 15 minutes of treatment now, (a fee that has remained unchanged > for the last 12 years!!), and I do need to increase my client numbers. I > listened to Tan myself in person when he came to town, he is VERY > denigrating towards ideas, such as relieving Spleen qi deficiency or > spending time with the client. He himself advocated his method by saying, > you can see more people, because you don;to need to spend all this time. I > am feeling a bit undecided about it, but when you needle Ling Ku, Ad Bay and > have the client move around a bit, you are not treating an underlying > disorder. But then you can argue that TCM is just on particular way of > seeing a condition and maybe it's not necessary to work along that line, and > we can just do channel clearing Tan style.. > > Regards, > Angela Pfaffenberger, Ph.D. > > angelapfa <angelapfa%40comcast.net> > > www.InnerhealthSalem.com <http://www.innerhealthsalem.com/> > > Phone: 503 364 3022 > - > > To: Chinese Medicine <Chinese Medicine%40yaho\ ogroups.com> > Wednesday, January 28, 2009 10:56 AM > Re: I Ching Acupuncture- Chen and Tan > > These are supposed to be advantages in the practice of a healing art? > I'd rather sell insurance than practice Chinese medicine like this. . . > > I think it is highly unethical not to try to treat the underlying > disorder, so that patients keep coming back. > > I assume this e-mail is tongue-in-cheek. . . > > > On Jan 28, 2009, at 10:24 AM, Angela Pfaffenberger, PH.D. wrote: > > > A striking feature of Tan's system is that it takes so little time, > > the clients do not need to disrobe, and you don't really need a > > diagnosis, you can do the whole thing is a bout 10 minutes. Since > > insurance reimbursements and cash fees are declining, it seems to be > > the obvious response on the side of practitioners to just devote > > less time and see more clients per hour. Plus the underlying > > disorder is never remedied, consequently the client has to return > > and Tan also recommends frequent treatments. Interestingly enough > > Tan himself makes no bones about how financially rewarding his > > system is, it is indeed the perfect match for contemporary medicine. > > > > Regards, > > Angela Pfaffenberger, Ph.D. > > > > angelapfa <angelapfa%40comcast.net> > > > > www.InnerhealthSalem.com <http://www.innerhealthsalem.com/> > > > > Phone: 503 364 3022 > > - > > dmvitello01 > > To: Chinese Medicine <Chinese Medicine%40yaho\ ogroups.com> > > Tuesday, January 27, 2009 3:30 PM > > I Ching Acupuncture- Chen and Tan > > > > Hello group, > > > > I'm wondering if there is a difference in Dr Chen's or Dr Tan's I- > > Ching systems. Did Chens system come first? > > > > Also, for discussions sake....I wonder if the popularity of Dr Tan's > > system vs. TCM acupuncture has more to do with the effectivenss of > > meridian based styles in general vs. TCM pattern ID. Many > > practitioners are claiming how once they switched to Dr Tan's style, > > they saw much better results. > > > > Perhaps the many Japanese, French, and even Chinese based approaches > > that focus more on the meridians are generally more effective. > > > > At one of Dr Tan's seminars he said NEVER needle locally. I wonder > > what the more integrative practitioners would say about > > this..especially the ones focusing on trigger points, motor points > > and local tissue treatments. > > > > Thanks for any input on this topic. > > > > Dave Vitello > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 29, 2009 Report Share Posted January 29, 2009 Many practitioners are claiming how once they switched to Dr Tan's style, they saw much better results. Lonny: This would depend on one's value system regarding what constitutes " a better result " . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 29, 2009 Report Share Posted January 29, 2009 Lonny, I had to laugh when I read this response, but on second thought, maybe you can expound a bit on what you mean. I think we'd all benefit. Thank you. y.c. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 29, 2009 Report Share Posted January 29, 2009 Lonny has a good point here. I have no problems with Dr. Tan's system itself, it is based on an interesting Yi Jing-based mathematical approach; after all, Dr. Tan's background is in engineering. I don't use it myself, as the needle stimulus is very strong. But Dr. Tan is familiar with the underlying theoretical foundations of the system, which explains much of his success. He is not an 'end- user', who just gets a list of point prescriptions and applies them mechanically to one patient after the other. An originator, or someone who understands Chinese medical philosophy at the foundational level, is going to get better results than just following someone's method or treatment protocols. One applies the foundational principles to each and every patient according to their specific patterns and manifestations. This, of course, can include the principles of Dr. Tan's system as well. What Lonny is speaking about here is very profound. He is asking whether the relief of symptomatic pain is the goal of the patient and practitioner, or something deeper, which in my approach to Chinese medicine would be alleviation of disharmonious patterns. Lonny may be looking at more spiritual issues as well, including lifestyle, emotions, outlook . . . On Jan 28, 2009, at 6:35 PM, sppdestiny wrote: > Many > practitioners are claiming how once they switched to Dr Tan's style, > they saw much better results. > > Lonny: This would depend on one's value system regarding what > constitutes " a better result " . > > > Chair, Department of Herbal Medicine Pacific College of Oriental Medicine San Diego, Ca. 92122 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 29, 2009 Report Share Posted January 29, 2009 Lonny, Good point. I think there is a large influence Orange in Dr Tan practitioners. There are quite few big name Dr Tan'rs practitioners in WA -where I practice- and resonating with Angelina, they seem to me to be interested in fast paced busy practices with little care for deeper healing. The Orange values of $bling are definetly apparent with these guys. There is this whole Scientology-Singer-Dr Tan-Jimmy Chang- Lotus seminar-collaboration monster that is really a bit scary to me. I have the opportunity to work at one of these clinics, so I see it first hand. Not to generalize, but it is consistent with Angelina's remarks. Very short visits, interested in immediate pain relief and getting the patient to come back often and long-term. Dr Tan does explain how this is needed with the system and seems very happy to tell us yeah pt's will have to come back:) I do see a streak of Blue with these guys as well. They do Dr Tan balance and nothing else. All other styles are inferior in there eyes, which at this point in the game blows me away. To not understand the effectiveness of local needling for some disorders is baffling. Sorry to be so opinionated about this, but it has been something I've faced for the last year and battling with. Chinese Medicine , " sppdestiny " <Revolution wrote: > > Many > practitioners are claiming how once they switched to Dr Tan's style, > they saw much better results. > > Lonny: This would depend on one's value system regarding what > constitutes " a better result " . > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 29, 2009 Report Share Posted January 29, 2009 David, The Nan Jing and Nei Jing are based on the same knowledge lineage as Yi Jing. There is a a very popular book in China, Si kao zhong yi/ Contemplating by Liu Lihong that aligns Shang Han Lun theories with Yi Jing. It is nothing esoteric, just a continuation of yi jing principles into the realm of medicine. On Jan 29, 2009, at 3:12 PM, flyingstarsfengshui wrote: > The entire Balance Method can be explained without ever using the Ba > Gua, I Ching or numerical patterns, these energetic images support the > knowledge in the classics. The system can be explained with Nei Jing > and Nan Jing knowledge, in Chinese Metaphysics deep truths or patterns > can be explained with multiple models. By integrating chinese medical > knowledge and I Ching/Ba Gua, Dr. Chen presented a clear system of > theory and application. > > The Balance Method is no more than a comprehensive and integrated > model rooted in the classics for clinical practice. It is no more > esoteric than the Nei Jing. Dr. Chen, not Dr. Tan created the Balance > Method and included classical and principles in his > teachings. This is clear in his presentation of such things as how > Zangfu and six stage channels are paired. > > Regards, > > david > > Chinese Medicine , > <zrosenbe wrote: > > > > Lonny has a good point here. > > > > I have no problems with Dr. Tan's system itself, it is based on an > > interesting Yi Jing-based mathematical approach; after all, Dr. > Tan's > > background is in engineering. I don't use it myself, as the needle > > stimulus is very strong. > > > > But Dr. Tan is familiar with the underlying theoretical > foundations of > > the system, which explains much of his success. He is not an 'end- > > user', who just gets a list of point prescriptions and applies them > > mechanically to one patient after the other. > > > > An originator, or someone who understands Chinese medical philosophy > > at the foundational level, is going to get better results than just > > following someone's method or treatment protocols. One applies the > > foundational principles to each and every patient according to their > > specific patterns and manifestations. This, of course, can include > > the principles of Dr. Tan's system as well. > > > > What Lonny is speaking about here is very profound. He is asking > > whether the relief of symptomatic pain is the goal of the patient > and > > practitioner, or something deeper, which in my approach to Chinese > > medicine would be alleviation of disharmonious patterns. Lonny may > be > > looking at more spiritual issues as well, including lifestyle, > > emotions, outlook . . . > > > > > > > > > > > > On Jan 28, 2009, at 6:35 PM, sppdestiny wrote: > > > > > Many > > > practitioners are claiming how once they switched to Dr Tan's > style, > > > they saw much better results. > > > > > > Lonny: This would depend on one's value system regarding what > > > constitutes " a better result " . > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Chair, Department of Herbal Medicine > > Pacific College of Oriental Medicine > > San Diego, Ca. 92122 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 29, 2009 Report Share Posted January 29, 2009 Very interesting stuff indeed, I'd love such a conversation with you over pu-erh tea. . .. you are right, the Nei Jing at least is a very heterogeneous text, many sources compiled together. And, yes, it is very interesting how these texts evolve over time, through additions and commentaries. On Jan 29, 2009, at 3:49 PM, flyingstarsfengshui wrote: > Hi Zev: > > That is a long conversation, the I Ching evolved overtime, much of the > correspondences did not exist until the Han Dyasty, especially the > eighth wing in the ten wings, not all Nei Jing is based on the lineage > in the sense it was much older. If we look at Ma Wang Dui medical > texts, its very primitive compared to Nei Jing of Han, something > happened in that time frame between the two. The same thing occured > with I Ching, from Zhou to Han, massive changes and development. > > Also its clear Shan Han theory is in the Nei Jing, Zhong must have > studied that and took the model and just applied formulas instead of > acupuncture. > > BTW, Dr. Stephen Chang, the famous taoist says his family is the same > as SHL Chang/Zhang. > > regards, > david > > Chinese Medicine , > <zrosenbe wrote: > > > > David, > > The Nan Jing and Nei Jing are based on the same knowledge lineage > > as Yi Jing. There is a a very popular book in China, Si kao zhong > yi/ > > Contemplating by Liu Lihong that aligns Shang Han > Lun > > theories with Yi Jing. It is nothing esoteric, just a continuation > of > > yi jing principles into the realm of medicine. > > > > > > > > On Jan 29, 2009, at 3:12 PM, flyingstarsfengshui wrote: > > > > > The entire Balance Method can be explained without ever using > the Ba > > > Gua, I Ching or numerical patterns, these energetic images > support the > > > knowledge in the classics. The system can be explained with Nei > Jing > > > and Nan Jing knowledge, in Chinese Metaphysics deep truths or > patterns > > > can be explained with multiple models. By integrating chinese > medical > > > knowledge and I Ching/Ba Gua, Dr. Chen presented a clear system of > > > theory and application. > > > > > > The Balance Method is no more than a comprehensive and integrated > > > model rooted in the classics for clinical practice. It is no more > > > esoteric than the Nei Jing. Dr. Chen, not Dr. Tan created the > Balance > > > Method and included classical and principles in > his > > > teachings. This is clear in his presentation of such things as how > > > Zangfu and six stage channels are paired. > > > > > > Regards, > > > > > > david > > > > > > Chinese Medicine , Z'ev > Rosenberg > > > <zrosenbe@> wrote: > > > > > > > > Lonny has a good point here. > > > > > > > > I have no problems with Dr. Tan's system itself, it is based > on an > > > > interesting Yi Jing-based mathematical approach; after all, Dr. > > > Tan's > > > > background is in engineering. I don't use it myself, as the > needle > > > > stimulus is very strong. > > > > > > > > But Dr. Tan is familiar with the underlying theoretical > > > foundations of > > > > the system, which explains much of his success. He is not an > 'end- > > > > user', who just gets a list of point prescriptions and applies > them > > > > mechanically to one patient after the other. > > > > > > > > An originator, or someone who understands Chinese medical > philosophy > > > > at the foundational level, is going to get better results than > just > > > > following someone's method or treatment protocols. One applies > the > > > > foundational principles to each and every patient according to > their > > > > specific patterns and manifestations. This, of course, can > include > > > > the principles of Dr. Tan's system as well. > > > > > > > > What Lonny is speaking about here is very profound. He is asking > > > > whether the relief of symptomatic pain is the goal of the > patient > > > and > > > > practitioner, or something deeper, which in my approach to > Chinese > > > > medicine would be alleviation of disharmonious patterns. Lonny > may > > > be > > > > looking at more spiritual issues as well, including lifestyle, > > > > emotions, outlook . . . > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Jan 28, 2009, at 6:35 PM, sppdestiny wrote: > > > > > > > > > Many > > > > > practitioners are claiming how once they switched to Dr Tan's > > > style, > > > > > they saw much better results. > > > > > > > > > > Lonny: This would depend on one's value system regarding what > > > > > constitutes " a better result " . > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Chair, Department of Herbal Medicine > > > > Pacific College of Oriental Medicine > > > > San Diego, Ca. 92122 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 30, 2009 Report Share Posted January 30, 2009 Angela: I don't know who to respond to here, but this is my experience. I graduated from a 5 Element School. It was excellent at looking at the whole person, emotional issues, spiritual issues. Using this method the pain would move in time (my experience.) I really don't see another system as good at moving emotional issues that are underlying the disorder (at least not another acupuncture system). I started to see that people wanted to be out of pain fast, or out the door they go. So I tried Dr. Tan's master points on my own. They were pretty miraculous. I eventually went to seminars on the balance method and learned more. I do a lot of channel clearing, but I see it as much more than that. I also integrate a TCM diagnosis. I prescribe a lot of herbs now, and continue to study the herbal side. I also use Colorpuncture for deeper conflict resolution (but that is another conversation.) I really don't think people who use Tan are short sighted and just trying to get a lot more people through. The ying yang balance treatments that I learned can treat the root. I also can't help think that the practitioner is integrating every thing they every learned about acupuncture, including a differential diagnosis. I find that if the pain doesn't move, the patient does, Out. So giving them immediate relief is important to get to the root work, herbs, conflict resolution, lifestyle changes, personal responsiblity,... If you can't keep them long enough to get there, then all is lost. Just my experience. Anne -- Anne C. Crowley, L.Ac., M.Ac., Dipl.Ac. www.LaPlataAcupuncture.com -------------- Original message ---------------------- " Angela Pfaffenberger, PH.D. " <angelapfa > I am not advocating this, however, when I meet Tan practitioners they tell me > that they can now see more clients because it's so time saving, and I also > noticed that Tan style is common in community acupuncture clinics. My own > interest in Tan is to a certain degree motivated by that. ASH only pays for > about 15 minutes of treatment now, (a fee that has remained unchanged for the > last 12 years!!), and I do need to increase my client numbers. I listened to Tan > myself in person when he came to town, he is VERY denigrating towards ideas, > such as relieving Spleen qi deficiency or spending time with the client. He > himself advocated his method by saying, you can see more people, because you > don;to need to spend all this time. I am feeling a bit undecided about it, but > when you needle Ling Ku, Ad Bay and have the client move around a bit, you are > not treating an underlying disorder. But then you can argue that TCM is just on > particular way of seeing a condition and maybe it's not necessary to work along > that line, and we can just do channel clearing Tan style.. > > Regards, > Angela Pfaffenberger, Ph.D. > > angelapfa > > www.InnerhealthSalem.com > > Phone: 503 364 3022 > - > > Chinese Medicine > Wednesday, January 28, 2009 10:56 AM > Re: I Ching Acupuncture- Chen and Tan > > > These are supposed to be advantages in the practice of a healing art? > I'd rather sell insurance than practice Chinese medicine like this. . . > > I think it is highly unethical not to try to treat the underlying > disorder, so that patients keep coming back. > > I assume this e-mail is tongue-in-cheek. . . > > > On Jan 28, 2009, at 10:24 AM, Angela Pfaffenberger, PH.D. wrote: > > > A striking feature of Tan's system is that it takes so little time, > > the clients do not need to disrobe, and you don't really need a > > diagnosis, you can do the whole thing is a bout 10 minutes. Since > > insurance reimbursements and cash fees are declining, it seems to be > > the obvious response on the side of practitioners to just devote > > less time and see more clients per hour. Plus the underlying > > disorder is never remedied, consequently the client has to return > > and Tan also recommends frequent treatments. Interestingly enough > > Tan himself makes no bones about how financially rewarding his > > system is, it is indeed the perfect match for contemporary medicine. > > > > Regards, > > Angela Pfaffenberger, Ph.D. > > > > angelapfa > > > > www.InnerhealthSalem.com > > > > Phone: 503 364 3022 > > - > > dmvitello01 > > Chinese Medicine > > Tuesday, January 27, 2009 3:30 PM > > I Ching Acupuncture- Chen and Tan > > > > Hello group, > > > > I'm wondering if there is a difference in Dr Chen's or Dr Tan's I- > > Ching systems. Did Chens system come first? > > > > Also, for discussions sake....I wonder if the popularity of Dr Tan's > > system vs. TCM acupuncture has more to do with the effectivenss of > > meridian based styles in general vs. TCM pattern ID. Many > > practitioners are claiming how once they switched to Dr Tan's style, > > they saw much better results. > > > > Perhaps the many Japanese, French, and even Chinese based approaches > > that focus more on the meridians are generally more effective. > > > > At one of Dr Tan's seminars he said NEVER needle locally. I wonder > > what the more integrative practitioners would say about > > this..especially the ones focusing on trigger points, motor points > > and local tissue treatments. > > > > Thanks for any input on this topic. > > > > Dave Vitello > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 30, 2009 Report Share Posted January 30, 2009 " The Orange values of $bling are definetly apparent with these guys. There is this whole Scientology-Singer-Dr Tan-Jimmy Chang- Lotus seminar-collaboration monster that is really a bit scary to me. " What do you mean by this? esp. Scientology and $bling? I personally have gained some of the best practical working knowledge from Lotus seminars. I did find the Jimmy Chang pulse reading difficult but some of his herbal knowledge was quite enlightening, and Dr Tan style acu has really upped my confidence in acupuncture working quickly for pain mgmt. Prior to ACU 123 I got so-so results. Now I get phenomenal results. What is scary about that? I'm really just trying to understand your comment, not blindly defend some " monster. " thank you Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 1, 2009 Report Share Posted February 1, 2009 In a few well established clinics in WA there is a certain " formula " that is followed in attempts to " succeed " at having a booming practice. The formulas starts with Singer. They are a company that shows you the formula..they are rooted in the whole Scientology thing...they show you how to run the practice, advise Dr Tan acupuncture, Jimmy Chang pulse reading and lotus/evegreen herbs. Its basically a whole system (or " racket " as one collegeua put it)of how to practice OM, that at its foundation is help you " succeed " . (at an Orange values level) Honestly, I find a lot of the information valuable, but am skeptical of any system that implies a complete system. Any deviation from this formula is not acceptable. > Prior to ACU 123 I got so-so results.Now I get phenomenal results Lonny's question applies; What kind of result? What do you consider a result in treatment? It is not my intention to talk negatively about these systems or the practitioners. In fact, I respect some of the info quite a lot. I just wanted to point out that the value system expressed by them is Orange (see Lonny's work or spiral dynamics)...and having been exposed to it where I work, it has sparked some internal conflicts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 4, 2009 Report Share Posted February 4, 2009 æ€è€ƒä¸åŒ» This is the text of Si Kao Zhong Yi mentioned by Zev. David Klatt Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 4, 2009 Report Share Posted February 4, 2009 Interview with 刘力红 , the author of æ€è€ƒä¸åŒ» David Klatt Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 4, 2009 Report Share Posted February 4, 2009 si kao zhong yi http://www.54md.com/book/content_231.html interview with author http://www.bbtpress.com/homepagebook/712/01.htm David Klatt Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 5, 2009 Report Share Posted February 5, 2009 i am now doing 100% BM and find it's effective for all conditions. it helps to continue with all the seminars. 1,2,3 is more for pain, but you can also balance internal problems by figuring out which meridians innervate the affected area and balancing them with systems 1-6. kath On Wed, Jan 28, 2009 at 7:37 PM, Yangchu Higgins <ycmgh wrote: > Here's some interesting things that maybe you folks could share some > info on. I've had excellent results using the balance method for joint or > nerve pain, but not so much so for joint numbness. Why is this? Have people > found balancing as effective for internal conditions, say insomnia? > > y.c. > > > -- Kath Bartlett, LAc, MS, BA UCLA Oriental Medicine Experienced, Dedicated, Effective Kath's Blog about , Healthy Living & Spirituality: http://acukath.blogspot.com/ Flying Dragon Liniment: Effective pain relief for muscles & joints Formulated by Kath Bartlett, Traditional Chinese Herbalist Available at Asheville Center for : www.FlyingDragonLiniment.com and from the following supply companies: Kamwo Herbal Pharmacy: NY - Chinatown https://www.kamwo.com/shop/product.php?productid=17442 & cat=0 & page=1 Golden Needle Acupuncture, Herbal & Medical Supply - Candler, NC http://www.goldenneedleonline.com/index.php?page=categories & category=14 & vendor= & \ product=5554 & pg= Asheville Center For 70 Woodfin Place, Suite West Wing Two Asheville, NC 28801 828.258.2777 kbartlett www.AcupunctureAsheville.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 5, 2009 Report Share Posted February 5, 2009 the original question asked was whether chen or tan came first. my understanding is that chen came first, then tan studied chen. as far as mill style vs boutique style: that's up to the practitioner. boutique style suits me. i use 100% tan and 95% of my patients use individualized herbal rx i compound at my pharm while they have their tx. i spend 1/2h in the tx room doing follow up questions & developing the tan pt px, often different ea time, depending on sx presentation. most of my patients have complicated symptomology, and i try to address as much as i can at ea tx. tan frees me up to spend more time on the herbs, since its less labor intensive and i no longer am doing a 2 sided tx: i can address everything on the front. some practitioners are high energy type A's, and they like seeing lots of patients per hour. it's a stylist choice. personally, i think things get missed if one sees a high volume practice, and that's unfair to the patient, unless your tx community style, and charging significantly less per tx. (you (don't) get what you (don't) pay for.) if your doing not doing individualized herbal formulas, then of course you don't need the extra herbal time, so can juggle multiple patients. i find i get excellent results with an tan/individualized herbal combo, so that's what works well for me. kath On Fri, Jan 30, 2009 at 1:56 PM, <anne.crowley wrote: > Angela: > > I don't know who to respond to here, but this is my experience. I graduated > from a 5 Element School. It was excellent at looking at the whole person, > emotional issues, spiritual issues. Using this method the pain would move in > time (my experience.) I really don't see another system as good at moving > emotional issues that are underlying the disorder (at least not another > acupuncture system). > > I started to see that people wanted to be out of pain fast, or out the door > they go. So I tried Dr. Tan's master points on my own. They were pretty > miraculous. I eventually went to seminars on the balance method and learned > more. I do a lot of channel clearing, but I see it as much more than that. > > I also integrate a TCM diagnosis. I prescribe a lot of herbs now, and > continue to study the herbal side. I also use Colorpuncture for deeper > conflict resolution (but that is another conversation.) > > I really don't think people who use Tan are short sighted and just trying > to get a lot more people through. The ying yang balance treatments that I > learned can treat the root. I also can't help think that the practitioner is > integrating every thing they every learned about acupuncture, including a > differential diagnosis. > > I find that if the pain doesn't move, the patient does, Out. So giving them > immediate relief is important to get to the root work, herbs, conflict > resolution, lifestyle changes, personal responsiblity,... If you can't keep > them long enough to get there, then all is lost. > > Just my experience. > > Anne > -- > Anne C. Crowley, L.Ac., M.Ac., Dipl.Ac. > > www.LaPlataAcupuncture.com > > > -------------- Original message ---------------------- > " Angela Pfaffenberger, PH.D. " <angelapfa<angelapfa%40comcast.net> > > > > I am not advocating this, however, when I meet Tan practitioners they > tell me > > that they can now see more clients because it's so time saving, and I > also > > noticed that Tan style is common in community acupuncture clinics. My own > > > interest in Tan is to a certain degree motivated by that. ASH only pays > for > > about 15 minutes of treatment now, (a fee that has remained unchanged for > the > > last 12 years!!), and I do need to increase my client numbers. I listened > to Tan > > myself in person when he came to town, he is VERY denigrating towards > ideas, > > such as relieving Spleen qi deficiency or spending time with the client. > He > > himself advocated his method by saying, you can see more people, because > you > > don;to need to spend all this time. I am feeling a bit undecided about > it, but > > when you needle Ling Ku, Ad Bay and have the client move around a bit, > you are > > not treating an underlying disorder. But then you can argue that TCM is > just on > > particular way of seeing a condition and maybe it's not necessary to work > along > > that line, and we can just do channel clearing Tan style.. > > > > Regards, > > Angela Pfaffenberger, Ph.D. > > > > angelapfa <angelapfa%40comcast.net> > > > > www.InnerhealthSalem.com > > > > Phone: 503 364 3022 > > - > > > > To: Chinese Medicine <Chinese Medicine%40yaho\ ogroups.com> > > Wednesday, January 28, 2009 10:56 AM > > Re: I Ching Acupuncture- Chen and Tan > > > > > > These are supposed to be advantages in the practice of a healing art? > > I'd rather sell insurance than practice Chinese medicine like this. . . > > > > I think it is highly unethical not to try to treat the underlying > > disorder, so that patients keep coming back. > > > > I assume this e-mail is tongue-in-cheek. . . > > > > > > On Jan 28, 2009, at 10:24 AM, Angela Pfaffenberger, PH.D. wrote: > > > > > A striking feature of Tan's system is that it takes so little time, > > > the clients do not need to disrobe, and you don't really need a > > > diagnosis, you can do the whole thing is a bout 10 minutes. Since > > > insurance reimbursements and cash fees are declining, it seems to be > > > the obvious response on the side of practitioners to just devote > > > less time and see more clients per hour. Plus the underlying > > > disorder is never remedied, consequently the client has to return > > > and Tan also recommends frequent treatments. Interestingly enough > > > Tan himself makes no bones about how financially rewarding his > > > system is, it is indeed the perfect match for contemporary medicine. > > > > > > Regards, > > > Angela Pfaffenberger, Ph.D. > > > > > > angelapfa <angelapfa%40comcast.net> > > > > > > www.InnerhealthSalem.com > > > > > > Phone: 503 364 3022 > > > - > > > dmvitello01 > > > To: Chinese Medicine <Chinese Medicine%40yaho\ ogroups.com> > > > Tuesday, January 27, 2009 3:30 PM > > > I Ching Acupuncture- Chen and Tan > > > > > > Hello group, > > > > > > I'm wondering if there is a difference in Dr Chen's or Dr Tan's I- > > > Ching systems. Did Chens system come first? > > > > > > Also, for discussions sake....I wonder if the popularity of Dr Tan's > > > system vs. TCM acupuncture has more to do with the effectivenss of > > > meridian based styles in general vs. TCM pattern ID. Many > > > practitioners are claiming how once they switched to Dr Tan's style, > > > they saw much better results. > > > > > > Perhaps the many Japanese, French, and even Chinese based approaches > > > that focus more on the meridians are generally more effective. > > > > > > At one of Dr Tan's seminars he said NEVER needle locally. I wonder > > > what the more integrative practitioners would say about > > > this..especially the ones focusing on trigger points, motor points > > > and local tissue treatments. > > > > > > Thanks for any input on this topic. > > > > > > Dave Vitello > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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