Guest guest Posted January 11, 2009 Report Share Posted January 11, 2009 Yehuda, Don't bother buying this book, it is poorly translated and overpriced in my opinion. You can borrow my copy if you like for an extended amount of time. . . On Jan 11, 2009, at 4:07 PM, yehuda frischman wrote: > Dear colleagues, > > Does anyone have a reasonably priced source for Henry Lu's > translation of Nei Jing and Nan Jing? I didn't find it on Amazon, > Bestbookdeal, Campusi or any of the other megasites that usually > have good deals. As a matter of fact, the only place I saw it was > on Lu's site in BC. > > Thanks > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 11, 2009 Report Share Posted January 11, 2009 Yehuda, The main thing about Henry Lu's translation that one can gripe about is the translation of Qi into " Energy " . There are a few grammatical typos as well. Saying that however, a couple of Nei jing enthusiasts who are Chinese and studied in Cheng Du tell me that the translation is actually very good. It has commentary from Zhang Jing-yue and Ma shi and others, which can not be found in English (except some in Nguyen Van-Nghi's translation). Also, Henry Lu's practical (clinical) knowledge of using the Nei Jing differs from academic translations, which although may be more " accurate " ie. Unschuld's , Lu's is accessible. My teachers (one who taught a year long Nei jing class) said that Lu's translation is translated for those who have studied TCM and use TCM. Henry Lu is actually a clinical and academic encyclopedia. He worked on this translation for over a couple of decades and has written many books on Chinese medicine (not just food therapy). You can call him personally and ask him for a deal or just pick his brain. He's actually very funny and engaging with a thick Chinese accent. I bought the book when it cost less than John Chen's books, before it came out. Now it costs quite a bit. My biggest criticism of the book is that it is too too BIG. Instead of a coffee table book; it is the coffee table itself. It should have been broken up into 3 books with smaller print and thinner paper. For a more classical approach, Nguyen Van Nghi's translation is superior, (the criticism is that it is an English translation of the French which was translated from the Chinese that was brought to Vietnam) and because of this there are some terms that seem unfamiliar. I'm also looking forward to Unschuld's Nei jing translation. Even though he isn't a clinician, he's giving us his rigorous scholarship. When is it coming out? On Sun, Jan 11, 2009 at 5:32 PM, <zrosenbe wrote: > Yehuda, > Don't bother buying this book, it is poorly translated and > overpriced in my opinion. You can borrow my copy if you like for an > extended amount of time. . . > > > > On Jan 11, 2009, at 4:07 PM, yehuda frischman wrote: > > > Dear colleagues, > > > > Does anyone have a reasonably priced source for Henry Lu's > > translation of Nei Jing and Nan Jing? I didn't find it on Amazon, > > Bestbookdeal, Campusi or any of the other megasites that usually > > have good deals. As a matter of fact, the only place I saw it was > > on Lu's site in BC. > > > > Thanks > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 12, 2009 Report Share Posted January 12, 2009 Dear colleagues, Does anyone have a reasonably priced source for Henry Lu's translation of Nei Jing and Nan Jing? I didn't find it on Amazon, Bestbookdeal, Campusi or any of the other megasites that usually have good deals. As a matter of fact, the only place I saw it was on Lu's site in BC. Thanks Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 12, 2009 Report Share Posted January 12, 2009 OK, well what about the other translations: Ni's, Veith's, Wu's, etc, Or do you recommend that I just get Unschuld's Su Wen, and wait until a good translation of Ling Shu comes out? --- On Sun, 1/11/09, <johnkokko wrote: <johnkokko Re: Henry Lu's Nei Jing and Nan Jing Sunday, January 11, 2009, 6:16 PM Yehuda, The main thing about Henry Lu's translation that one can gripe about is the translation of Qi into " Energy " . There are a few grammatical typos as well. Saying that however, a couple of Nei jing enthusiasts who are Chinese and studied in Cheng Du tell me that the translation is actually very good. It has commentary from Zhang Jing-yue and Ma shi and others, which can not be found in English (except some in Nguyen Van-Nghi's translation) . Also, Henry Lu's practical (clinical) knowledge of using the Nei Jing differs from academic translations, which although may be more " accurate " ie. Unschuld's , Lu's is accessible. My teachers (one who taught a year long Nei jing class) said that Lu's translation is translated for those who have studied TCM and use TCM. Henry Lu is actually a clinical and academic encyclopedia. He worked on this translation for over a couple of decades and has written many books on Chinese medicine (not just food therapy). You can call him personally and ask him for a deal or just pick his brain. He's actually very funny and engaging with a thick Chinese accent. I bought the book when it cost less than John Chen's books, before it came out. Now it costs quite a bit. My biggest criticism of the book is that it is too too BIG. Instead of a coffee table book; it is the coffee table itself. It should have been broken up into 3 books with smaller print and thinner paper. For a more classical approach, Nguyen Van Nghi's translation is superior, (the criticism is that it is an English translation of the French which was translated from the Chinese that was brought to Vietnam) and because of this there are some terms that seem unfamiliar. I'm also looking forward to Unschuld's Nei jing translation. Even though he isn't a clinician, he's giving us his rigorous scholarship. When is it coming out? On Sun, Jan 11, 2009 at 5:32 PM, <zrosenbe (AT) san (DOT) rr.com> wrote: > Yehuda, > Don't bother buying this book, it is poorly translated and > overpriced in my opinion. You can borrow my copy if you like for an > extended amount of time. . . > > > > On Jan 11, 2009, at 4:07 PM, yehuda frischman wrote: > > > Dear colleagues, > > > > Does anyone have a reasonably priced source for Henry Lu's > > translation of Nei Jing and Nan Jing? I didn't find it on Amazon, > > Bestbookdeal, Campusi or any of the other megasites that usually > > have good deals. As a matter of fact, the only place I saw it was > > on Lu's site in BC. > > > > Thanks > > > > > > www.traditionaljewi shmedicine. net > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 12, 2009 Report Share Posted January 12, 2009 Yehuda, You know I recommend Dr. Lu's book highly. It is what I use for the Nei Jing Su Wen/Ling Shu translations. He showed me the sources in Chinese for his books, they are also very good. I met Dr. Lu while lecturing in Vancouver and he is a great man. His early works showed the translation from Chinese and English side by side and it is very accurate. I agree - if you put legs on the book, it would be a coffee table! But it is certainly worthwhile. It will cost a lot for shipping, but it is certainly worth it. If you call the school (ICTCM), you can ask him to autograph it, if you order it from there. Dr. Wang's translation of the Ling Shu is also an interesting read... Best regards, -- Robert Chu, PhD, L.Ac. QME chusauli See my webpages at: www.chusaulei.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 12, 2009 Report Share Posted January 12, 2009 Yehuda, John, About four years ago, Paul Unschuld gave a two day Su Wen seminar here in San Diego which I helped organize and took part in. I brought all of my translations, including the ones you mention below, and we reviewed them with Paul. All of them were way off the mark. The Nei Jing corpus is difficult to translate because of the heterogeneous nature of the text. It is much more complex than the Shang Han Lun and Nan Jing. You need a dictionary/glossary, which, by the way, is now available from University of California text, prepared by Hermann Tessanow and Paul Unschuld. Also, you need the running Chinese text next to the English text, containing explanations of concepts and technical terms. Otherwise, you end up with an obscure translation. Translation is a very difficult art, with its own rules and requirements. One is having at least one of the translators in any project be fluent in the target language, and able to adequately explain technical terms, which must be glossed fully. Alas, few will take this job in our field, because it makes no money. One professional translator told me that he figured out that he makes about fifty cents an hour for his work. Now on to the specific translations: 1) Henry Lu's original translation, which I acquired in 1983, 26 years ago, is actually better in some ways than the newer one, as it has the Chinese language as well as the English text next to each other. It isn't just qi4 as energy that is the problem, it is also terms such as gan bi as 'liver arthralgia', which doesn't exist as a condition. The Wiseman dictionary's 'liver impediment' is a much better translation, and is explained in full. . 2) The Ni translation reads well, but that is because, as Dr. Ni admits in his introduction, he has inserted the explanations and interpretations directly into the body of the English text. So it is an interpreted version of the text without any separation or explanation of what is supposed to be the original vs. the newer additions. 3) Ilsa Veith's translation was done decades ago, and was a valiant attempt at translation of a difficult work, but is quite outdated at this point, largely because there was no CM profession in the West to communicate to. 4) The Van Nghi translation of the Ling Shu is the best of the bunch, but still suffers from the fact that it is a second-hand translation from French to English, and has little term explanation. But the charts are excellent, and I find I can derive more information from this text than the others. I have known Henry Lu since the early 80's, and have appreciated his work to promote the classical works of Chinese medicine. I still use his pulse book and other texts, however one cannot excel at everything. The Nei Jing is one of the most difficult works to translate, and I've gone between almost a dozen English translations and the Chinese text for years, and still feel they miss the mark. So my conclusion is: use any translation if you must, but without Chinese language skills you will be largely lost. The new Su Wen dictionary will help, but it is very complex. I think we'll have to wait for the Unschuld/Tessenow translation to do justice to this material, in other words have one reliable, complete source text to work with in a classroom setting. On Jan 12, 2009, at 1:24 AM, yehuda frischman wrote: > OK, well what about the other translations: Ni's, Veith's, Wu's, > etc, Or do you recommend that I just get Unschuld's Su Wen, and > wait until a good translation of Ling Shu comes out? > > > > > > --- On Sun, 1/11/09, <johnkokko wrote: > > <johnkokko > Re: Henry Lu's Nei Jing and Nan Jing > > Sunday, January 11, 2009, 6:16 PM > > Yehuda, > The main thing about Henry Lu's translation that one can gripe about > is the > translation of Qi into " Energy " . > There are a few grammatical typos as well. > > Saying that however, a couple of Nei jing enthusiasts who are > Chinese and > studied in Cheng Du > tell me that the translation is actually very good. It has > commentary from > Zhang Jing-yue and Ma shi and others, > which can not be found in English (except some in Nguyen Van-Nghi's > translation) . > Also, Henry Lu's practical (clinical) knowledge of using the Nei Jing > differs from academic translations, which although may be more > " accurate " > ie. Unschuld's , Lu's is accessible. > My teachers (one who taught a year long Nei jing class) said that Lu's > translation is translated for those who have studied TCM and use TCM. > Henry Lu is actually a clinical and academic encyclopedia. He worked > on > this translation for over a couple of decades and has written many > books on > Chinese medicine (not just food therapy). You can call him > personally and > ask him for a deal or just pick his brain. He's actually very funny > and > engaging with a thick Chinese accent. > > I bought the book when it cost less than John Chen's books, before > it came > out. Now it costs quite a bit. > My biggest criticism of the book is that it is too too BIG. > Instead of a coffee table book; it is the coffee table itself. > It should have been broken up into 3 books with smaller print and > thinner > paper. > > For a more classical approach, Nguyen Van Nghi's translation is > superior, > (the criticism is that it is an English translation of the French > which was > translated from the Chinese that was brought to Vietnam) and because > of this > there are some terms that seem unfamiliar. > > I'm also looking forward to Unschuld's Nei jing translation. Even > though he > isn't a clinician, he's giving us his rigorous scholarship. > > When is it coming out? > > On Sun, Jan 11, 2009 at 5:32 PM, <zrosenbe (AT) san (DOT) > rr.com> wrote: > > > Yehuda, > > Don't bother buying this book, it is poorly translated and > > overpriced in my opinion. You can borrow my copy if you like for an > > extended amount of time. . . > > > > > > > > On Jan 11, 2009, at 4:07 PM, yehuda frischman wrote: > > > > > Dear colleagues, > > > > > > Does anyone have a reasonably priced source for Henry Lu's > > > translation of Nei Jing and Nan Jing? I didn't find it on Amazon, > > > Bestbookdeal, Campusi or any of the other megasites that usually > > > have good deals. As a matter of fact, the only place I saw it was > > > on Lu's site in BC. > > > > > > Thanks > > > > > > > > > www.traditionaljewi shmedicine. net > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 12, 2009 Report Share Posted January 12, 2009 Z'ev, Thanks for your insights. Unschuld has done much service for the Asian medicine community. It's kind of a paradox though, because he also talks about the archaic superstition of the ancient Chinese in his talks and you get an impression that he is an observer who is at once revering the classical texts and also laughing at them at the same time. He talks about the difficulty for Asian medicine to integrate with Allopathic medicine, mainly because of the foundation our medicine is built on... yin and yang and the 5 phase dynamic. He says that these theories " can't build cell phones " , so it's hard for modern ears to bridge the gap. As an academic, he is looking at the texts and histories as evidence that our medicine is mainly a movement of philosophies stemming from socio-economic-political motivations which manifest in medical theories. His new book, " What is Medicine? " will elaborate on this perspective. Very few westerners know the Nei Jing as well as him, so he has a bird's eye view on the inconsistencies laden in the Classic. It definitely seems as though it was written by several or many people over an expanded period of time (like the religious Bible). The Nei jing is a bit of a conondrum for me.... The Jia Yi Jing translated by Charles Chase helps to organize the material and make it practical. I hope that the new translation will shed some light on the foundational classic to take us out of the intellectual Dark Age in Chinese medicine (if I can call it that) ie.. last 200 or so years. K. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 12, 2009 Report Share Posted January 12, 2009 John, Thank you for reminding me about Chip Chace's translation of the Jia yi jing (Systematic Classic of Acupuncture and Moxabustion, Huang Fu-mai, published by Blue Poppy Press), which is perhaps the best translation of all. The Jia yi jing is a compilation of all the clinical acupuncture material in the Ling Shu and secondarily Su Wen, and it is very clear and concise. I love this book. Paul Unschuld, after all, is a medical anthropologist, not a practitioner of Chinese medicine. Therefore, as befits his profession, he must present a non-partial perspective to much of his work, a certain distance if you like. However, if you spend time with him, as I have done, you can see that he is actually quite enthusiastic about the potential of Chinese medicine, but equally critical of the lack of study of classical material in the profession. On Jan 12, 2009, at 1:16 PM, wrote: > Z'ev, > Thanks for your insights. > > Unschuld has done much service for the Asian medicine community. > It's kind of a paradox though, because he also talks about the archaic > superstition of the ancient Chinese in his talks > and you get an impression that he is an observer who is at once > revering the > classical texts and > also laughing at them at the same time. > > He talks about the difficulty for Asian medicine to integrate with > Allopathic medicine, > mainly because of the foundation our medicine is built on... yin and > yang > and the 5 phase dynamic. > He says that these theories " can't build cell phones " , so it's hard > for > modern ears to bridge the gap. > > As an academic, he is looking at the texts and histories as evidence > that > our medicine is mainly a movement of philosophies stemming from > socio-economic-political motivations which manifest in medical > theories. > His new book, " What is Medicine? " will elaborate on this perspective. > > Very few westerners know the Nei Jing as well as him, so he has a > bird's eye > view on the inconsistencies laden in the Classic. > It definitely seems as though it was written by several or many > people over > an expanded period of time (like the religious Bible). > > The Nei jing is a bit of a conondrum for me.... The Jia Yi Jing > translated > by Charles Chase helps to organize the material and make it > practical. I > hope that the new translation will shed some light on the foundational > classic to take us out of the intellectual Dark Age in Chinese > medicine (if > I can call it that) ie.. last 200 or so years. > > K. > > > Chair, Department of Herbal Medicine Pacific College of Oriental Medicine San Diego, Ca. 92122 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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