Guest guest Posted January 8, 2009 Report Share Posted January 8, 2009 Actually, I think recovery is a process and it's normal for clients to oscillate, the recovery has costs, such as needing to practice more impulse control, and it also has benefits. I would just normalize it to the client and go: " Yeah, yeah, I understand, it can be hard to decide and be certain what is right for you, " etc. Then I would make her talk about both aspects, what was good about the recovery, what was difficult. If you take one end of the stick (recovery) the client often takes the other (it's too much work). Make them take both ends of the stick and weigh the options out loud. It's just a process she needs to go through, and some clients go through it many times over, esp. weight losers, alcoholics, etc. Regards, Angela Pfaffenberger, Ph.D. angelapfa www.InnerhealthSalem.com Phone: 503 364 3022 - jasonwcom Chinese Medicine Thursday, January 08, 2009 10:07 AM Re: Prepayment Plans Why stop treating her? She is better off with meds, bad food and acupuncture than with just the meds and bad food... Chinese Medicine , " zedbowls " <zaranski wrote: > > time to share just one: 24 year old female college student came in > with md dx of chronic fatigue syndrome and fibromyalgia with the > requisite antidepressants, antiinflammatories, etc. > > She responded slowly but markedly during the evaluation period (first > 4 treatments) and told us she was genuinely committed to changing her > life including diet, movement, getting off her drugs, getting out of > her dis-ease...she wanted to change her life. She decided to prepay > for a rather extensive course of care (given her young age) and > responded increasingly well as she was able to taper off her drugs. > She lost almost 20#s, got off her drugs completely, overhauled her > diet, began exercising and then.... > > One day she went to a long standing semi-annual appointment with her > principle physician who told her that she could be a danger to > herself without the very neccessary medications he had prescribed > her. He continued telling her how unsafe it was for her to be off > the medications, especially after how long she had been taking them > (5 years), even tho she said she told him she had been clean for 3 > months. He coerced her into taking some samples he had on hand and > to going back onto her meds. > > Wasn't long before she began complaining of many of the symptoms that > had been resolved for 3 months, gaining weight... She told me she > thought the whole process too hard, too much work, and that maybe she > really DOES like the way the McDonald's food makes her feel. > > I told her that if she was not interested in changing what she puts > in her body (fast food and unnecessary pharmaceuticals), then we > might not be able to reach our treatment goals, and so we should stop > right there. I did tell her that if she ever decided to take control > of her life and regain her health, we would be thrilled to help with > conditions. > > Mark Z > > Chinese Medicine , Hugo Ramiro > <subincor@> wrote: > > > > Hi Mark: > > > > --- > > and we have kicked-out some people. > > --- > > > > Would you care to share some of these stories? In my opinion we > are undertrained for this type of situation. > > > > Thanks! > > Hugo > > > > > > ________________________________ > > Hugo Ramiro > > http://middlemedicine.wordpress.com > > http://www.chinesemedicaltherapies.org > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > zedbowls <zaranski@> > > Chinese Medicine > > Thursday, 1 January, 2009 19:57:19 > > Re: Prepayment Plans > > > > > > Anne, > > > > If the Client does not complete their treatment plan, the unused > > portion of their prepay is promptly refunded to them via check, or > > by the method they paid (their choice). The services used (when > not > > the complete plan) are charged at regular price. We discount > > services only, but prepaid treatment plans include estimated herbs, > > too. Their herb use is tracked in their file, so the remaining > herb > > credit is never a mystery. > > > > I created a simple agreement that both parties sign at the start > > that lists all services included, as well as product credit. The > > agreement spells out the refund policy and gives an extensive > > example. > > > > We have had people decide to drop out, had people relocate, All > received refunds. > > > > We discount 15% for sizeable prepaid plans, 10% for small plans. > > > > We find that Clients on prepaid plans miss appointments far less > > frequently, have better compliance with diet, exercises, and herbs, > > and tend to refer much more often and more vigorously than those > who > > do not make as deep a committment. Prepaids tend to get all the > > help they really need, and have much better results because of that. > > > > Remember our clinic's goal is correction (as opposed to relief) as > > evidenced by normal tongue and pulse. > > > > Mark Zaranski > > East Wind Acupuncture, Inc. > > > > Traditional_ Chinese_Medicine , > > anne.crowley@ ... wrote: > > > > > > Mark: > > > > > > You do refund the unsused portion if they decide to discontinue, > > don't you? That would be figuring everything at the regular rate if > > they discontinue and refunding the rest. > > > > > > Anne > > > > > > -- > > > Anne C. Crowley, L.Ac., M.Ac., Dipl.Ac. > > > > > > www.LaPlataAcupunct ure.com > > > > > > ------------ -- Original message ------------ --------- - > > > " zedbowls " <zaranski@ .> > > > > .The best feature of prepaid plans is that they motivate > > patients to > > > > get all the care they need (that is if YOU are skilled enough > to > > > > predict how many treatments they really need to correct/resolve > > > > their issue/s and if YOU are bold enough to tell them the > > truth!!). > > > > oNCE THEY HAVE PRPAID, ANOTHER MOTIVATOR COMES INTO PLAY > BESIDES > > > > WANTING TO FEEL BETTER...WANTING TO GET THEIR MONEY'S WORTH). > > > > > > > > Patients committed to a prepaid plan seem to refer more than > > those > > > > less committed. We frequently (multiple times per week) have > > > > Clients who prepay for plans that span 6 months to 18 months > and > > > > include 12 to 70+ treatments, appropriate reevaluations, > > anticipated > > > > herbs, and bodywork. We also sell maintenance packages to > those > > who > > > > have completed initial corrective care plans. > > > > > > > > I spoke with the State board of professional services regarding > > > > prepaid plans and they responded that they had no regulations > > > > prohibiting such. > > > > > > > > Mark Zaranski > > > > East Wind Acupuncture, Inc. > > > > Chesterton, Indiana > > > > > > > > Traditional_ Chinese_Medicine , > > > > anne.crowley@ wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Andrea: > > > > > > > > > > I am in Maryland. Usually how change comes about is to go > the > > > > Acupuncture Board and offer to them what is done in other > states > > > > like MD. Let the Acupuncture board call the insurance > > > > commissioner. These folks will be very protective of their > turf. > > > > > > > > > > I don't have a contract now for my clients but will be > > developing > > > > something for the new year. I have heard prepayment/contract > > > > bantered about in practice mgmt groups. That is why MD had to > > pay > > > > attention because practitioners started doing it. > > > > > > > > > > This is what I understand. Offer a prepayment plan to your > > > > clients. It does not have to be discounted or a different fee. > > It > > > > is nice if you do that to offer incentive.You have to stipulate > > that > > > > you will refund unused treatments if they decide to stop. We > > are > > > > not trainers, massage therapists or whoever can keep the money > > if > > > > you leave.. > > > > > > > > > > However, what I think is fair and should be done is the > > > > following: If you have discounted the package of say 5 > > treatments, > > > > and a client leaves after tx #3 and they have paid for 5, the > > first > > > > 3 should be charged at the regular rate and the remaining > amount > > > > refunded. Now that refund may be small because now everything > > is at > > > > the regular rate. You of course have to put this in bold print > > and > > > > also state it. The discount was given because the client > > committed > > > > to a group of treatments. It is fair to you and it is > incentive > > for > > > > them to stay and see how this really works. > > > > > > > > > > I personally would see most people two times a week and > > prescribe > > > > herbs for this initial 4 weeks - maybe longer for some > > patients. > > > > They will see the benefits faster and be more likely to > continue. > > > > > > > > > > My two cents > > > > > > > > > > Anne > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > Anne C. Crowley, L.Ac., M.Ac., Dipl.Ac. > > > > > > > > > > www.LaPlataAcupunct ure.com > > > > > > > > > > ------------ -- Original message ------------ --------- - > > > > > <@> > > > > > > Hi All, > > > > > > > > > > > > I recently attended a conference in which there was a > > > > conversation about > > > > > > prepayment plans for acupuncture treatments. The workshop > > was > > > > with Samuel A. > > > > > > Collins, the director of the Insurance Information Network > > > > through the American > > > > > > Acupuncture Council. According to him, it may be possible > > for > > > > acupuncturists to > > > > > > incorporate prepayment plans in our practices. The > > advantages > > > > are an overall > > > > > > lower cost per treatment for the patient, and an up-front > > bulk > > > > payment to the > > > > > > practitioner. > > > > > > > > > > > > According to Mr. Collins, prepayment plans have already > been > > > > approved in > > > > > > California and Maryland. He encourages any acupuncturist > > > > interested in > > > > > > establishing prepayment plans, to contact their state > > department > > > > of insurance > > > > > > with a letter stating our intentions, and a sample of the > > > > contract we intend to > > > > > > use. > > > > > > > > > > > > I am considering exploring the legality of this in Arizona, > > > > where I live. I am > > > > > > looking for samples of contracts any of you might be using > > for > > > > this purpose, and > > > > > > to hear of your experiences of exploring this in your own > > areas. > > > > > > > > > > > > May we all have a happy, healthy, and successful new year! > > > > > > > > > > > > Blessings, > > > > > > Andrea Beth > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Traditional Oriental Medicine > > > > > > Happy Hours in the CALM Center > > > > > > 1770 E. Villa Drive, Suite 5 > > > > > > Cottonwood, AZ 86326 > > > > > > (928) 274-1373 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 8, 2009 Report Share Posted January 8, 2009 Hi Mark, Angela and all, Thanks for telling that story Mark. Angela, your strategies seem sound, so at what point do you fire a patient? Hugo ________________________________ Hugo Ramiro http://middlemedicine.wordpress.com http://www.chinesemedicaltherapies.org ________________________________ " Angela Pfaffenberger, PH..D. " <angelapfa Thursday, 8 January, 2009 13:16:03 Re: Ambivalence Actually, I think recovery is a process and it's normal for clients to oscillate, the recovery has costs, such as needing to practice more impulse control, and it also has benefits. I would just normalize it to the client and go: " Yeah, yeah, I understand, it can be hard to decide and be certain what is right for you, " etc. Then I would make her talk about both aspects, what was good about the recovery, what was difficult. If you take one end of the stick (recovery) the client often takes the other (it's too much work). Make them take both ends of the stick and weigh the options out loud. It's just a process she needs to go through, and some clients go through it many times over, esp. weight losers, alcoholics, etc. Regards, Angela Pfaffenberger, Ph.D. angelapfa (AT) comcast (DOT) net www.InnerhealthSale m.com Phone: 503 364 3022 - jasonwcom Thursday, January 08, 2009 10:07 AM Re: Prepayment Plans Why stop treating her? She is better off with meds, bad food and acupuncture than with just the meds and bad food... Traditional_ Chinese_Medicine , " zedbowls " <zaranski@.. .> wrote: > > time to share just one: 24 year old female college student came in > with md dx of chronic fatigue syndrome and fibromyalgia with the > requisite antidepressants, antiinflammatories, etc. > > She responded slowly but markedly during the evaluation period (first > 4 treatments) and told us she was genuinely committed to changing her > life including diet, movement, getting off her drugs, getting out of > her dis-ease...she wanted to change her life. She decided to prepay > for a rather extensive course of care (given her young age) and > responded increasingly well as she was able to taper off her drugs. > She lost almost 20#s, got off her drugs completely, overhauled her > diet, began exercising and then.... > > One day she went to a long standing semi-annual appointment with her > principle physician who told her that she could be a danger to > herself without the very neccessary medications he had prescribed > her. He continued telling her how unsafe it was for her to be off > the medications, especially after how long she had been taking them > (5 years), even tho she said she told him she had been clean for 3 > months. He coerced her into taking some samples he had on hand and > to going back onto her meds. > > Wasn't long before she began complaining of many of the symptoms that > had been resolved for 3 months, gaining weight... She told me she > thought the whole process too hard, too much work, and that maybe she > really DOES like the way the McDonald's food makes her feel. > > I told her that if she was not interested in changing what she puts > in her body (fast food and unnecessary pharmaceuticals) , then we > might not be able to reach our treatment goals, and so we should stop > right there. I did tell her that if she ever decided to take control > of her life and regain her health, we would be thrilled to help with > conditions. > > Mark Z > > Traditional_ Chinese_Medicine , Hugo Ramiro > <subincor@> wrote: > > > > Hi Mark: > > > > --- > > and we have kicked-out some people. > > --- > > > > Would you care to share some of these stories? In my opinion we > are undertrained for this type of situation. > > > > Thanks! > > Hugo > > > > > > ____________ _________ _________ __ > > Hugo Ramiro > > http://middlemedici ne.wordpress. com > > http://www.chinesem edicaltherapies. org > > > > > > > > > > > > ____________ _________ _________ __ > > zedbowls <zaranski@> > > > > Thursday, 1 January, 2009 19:57:19 > > Re: Prepayment Plans > > > > > > Anne, > > > > If the Client does not complete their treatment plan, the unused > > portion of their prepay is promptly refunded to them via check, or > > by the method they paid (their choice). The services used (when > not > > the complete plan) are charged at regular price. We discount > > services only, but prepaid treatment plans include estimated herbs, > > too. Their herb use is tracked in their file, so the remaining > herb > > credit is never a mystery. > > > > I created a simple agreement that both parties sign at the start > > that lists all services included, as well as product credit. The > > agreement spells out the refund policy and gives an extensive > > example. > > > > We have had people decide to drop out, had people relocate, All > received refunds. > > > > We discount 15% for sizeable prepaid plans, 10% for small plans. > > > > We find that Clients on prepaid plans miss appointments far less > > frequently, have better compliance with diet, exercises, and herbs, > > and tend to refer much more often and more vigorously than those > who > > do not make as deep a committment. Prepaids tend to get all the > > help they really need, and have much better results because of that. > > > > Remember our clinic's goal is correction (as opposed to relief) as > > evidenced by normal tongue and pulse. > > > > Mark Zaranski > > East Wind Acupuncture, Inc. > > > > Traditional_ Chinese_Medicine , > > anne.crowley@ ... wrote: > > > > > > Mark: > > > > > > You do refund the unsused portion if they decide to discontinue, > > don't you? That would be figuring everything at the regular rate if > > they discontinue and refunding the rest. > > > > > > Anne > > > > > > -- > > > Anne C. Crowley, L.Ac., M.Ac., Dipl.Ac. > > > > > > www.LaPlataAcupunct ure.com > > > > > > ------------ -- Original message ------------ --------- - > > > " zedbowls " <zaranski@ .> > > > > .The best feature of prepaid plans is that they motivate > > patients to > > > > get all the care they need (that is if YOU are skilled enough > to > > > > predict how many treatments they really need to correct/resolve > > > > their issue/s and if YOU are bold enough to tell them the > > truth!!).. > > > > oNCE THEY HAVE PRPAID, ANOTHER MOTIVATOR COMES INTO PLAY > BESIDES > > > > WANTING TO FEEL BETTER...WANTING TO GET THEIR MONEY'S WORTH). > > > > > > > > Patients committed to a prepaid plan seem to refer more than > > those > > > > less committed. We frequently (multiple times per week) have > > > > Clients who prepay for plans that span 6 months to 18 months > and > > > > include 12 to 70+ treatments, appropriate reevaluations, > > anticipated > > > > herbs, and bodywork. We also sell maintenance packages to > those > > who > > > > have completed initial corrective care plans. > > > > > > > > I spoke with the State board of professional services regarding > > > > prepaid plans and they responded that they had no regulations > > > > prohibiting such. > > > > > > > > Mark Zaranski > > > > East Wind Acupuncture, Inc. > > > > Chesterton, Indiana > > > > > > > > Traditional_ Chinese_Medicine , > > > > anne.crowley@ wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Andrea: > > > > > > > > > > I am in Maryland. Usually how change comes about is to go > the > > > > Acupuncture Board and offer to them what is done in other > states > > > > like MD. Let the Acupuncture board call the insurance > > > > commissioner. These folks will be very protective of their > turf. > > > > > > > > > > I don't have a contract now for my clients but will be > > developing > > > > something for the new year. I have heard prepayment/contract > > > > bantered about in practice mgmt groups. That is why MD had to > > pay > > > > attention because practitioners started doing it. > > > > > > > > > > This is what I understand. Offer a prepayment plan to your > > > > clients. It does not have to be discounted or a different fee. > > It > > > > is nice if you do that to offer incentive.You have to stipulate > > that > > > > you will refund unused treatments if they decide to stop. We > > are > > > > not trainers, massage therapists or whoever can keep the money > > if > > > > you leave.. > > > > > > > > > > However, what I think is fair and should be done is the > > > > following: If you have discounted the package of say 5 > > treatments, > > > > and a client leaves after tx #3 and they have paid for 5, the > > first > > > > 3 should be charged at the regular rate and the remaining > amount > > > > refunded. Now that refund may be small because now everything > > is at > > > > the regular rate. You of course have to put this in bold print > > and > > > > also state it. The discount was given because the client > > committed > > > > to a group of treatments. It is fair to you and it is > incentive > > for > > > > them to stay and see how this really works. > > > > > > > > > > I personally would see most people two times a week and > > prescribe > > > > herbs for this initial 4 weeks - maybe longer for some > > patients. > > > > They will see the benefits faster and be more likely to > continue.. > > > > > > > > > > My two cents > > > > > > > > > > Anne > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > Anne C. Crowley, L.Ac., M.Ac., Dipl.Ac. > > > > > > > > > > www.LaPlataAcupunct ure.com > > > > > > > > > > ------------ -- Original message ------------ --------- - > > > > > <@> > > > > > > Hi All, > > > > > > > > > > > > I recently attended a conference in which there was a > > > > conversation about > > > > > > prepayment plans for acupuncture treatments. The workshop > > was > > > > with Samuel A. > > > > > > Collins, the director of the Insurance Information Network > > > > through the American > > > > > > Acupuncture Council. According to him, it may be possible > > for > > > > acupuncturists to > > > > > > incorporate prepayment plans in our practices. The > > advantages > > > > are an overall > > > > > > lower cost per treatment for the patient, and an up-front > > bulk > > > > payment to the > > > > > > practitioner. > > > > > > > > > > > > According to Mr. Collins, prepayment plans have already > been > > > > approved in > > > > > > California and Maryland. He encourages any acupuncturist > > > > interested in > > > > > > establishing prepayment plans, to contact their state > > department > > > > of insurance > > > > > > with a letter stating our intentions, and a sample of the > > > > contract we intend to > > > > > > use. > > > > > > > > > > > > I am considering exploring the legality of this in Arizona, > > > > where I live. I am > > > > > > looking for samples of contracts any of you might be using > > for > > > > this purpose, and > > > > > > to hear of your experiences of exploring this in your own > > areas. > > > > > > > > > > > > May we all have a happy, healthy, and successful new year! > > > > > > > > > > > > Blessings, > > > > > > Andrea Beth > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Traditional Oriental Medicine > > > > > > Happy Hours in the CALM Center > > > > > > 1770 E. Villa Drive, Suite 5 > > > > > > Cottonwood, AZ 86326 > > > > > > (928) 274-1373 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 8, 2009 Report Share Posted January 8, 2009 I would make it the clients decision and ask questions like " What is your goal for this treatment course? " If they say, I just want a magic cure, I'd say : " This is not realistic,acupuncture acts together with other factors to increase health. Do you want to do what it takes? " If they say: " I don't know. " I'd say: " Why don't you think about it and let me know when you are ready to go forward. " I guess I see the client as being in charge and I support them in their journey. But I also want to acknowledge that not all clients are a good match for one's approach, some people just drive me crazy. This is based on 2 psychological techniques, Motivational Interviewing and Stages of Change. It's very useful. Regards, Angela Pfaffenberger, Ph.D. angelapfa www.InnerhealthSalem.com Phone: 503 364 3022 - Chinese Medicine Thursday, January 08, 2009 11:24 AM Re: allergic reaction to Tian Ma Yehuda, Thanks for sharing. Sometimes skin rashes pop up from those who are hyper-sensitive to sulfur-dioxide from the herbs, but they are usually red, not purple welts. Is this a new patient who is for the first time taking Chinese herbs? I've seen the sulfur-dioxide allergy show up a couple of times, when I was a student at the school clinicnwhich used sulfured herbs. When I went back to ask them if they are allergic to sulphur, that came up positive from their allopathic history. But, of course, we never mention that the herbs we use may have sulfur-dioxide content which is used as a fumigant. Tian ma (gastrodia) is an endangered herb and is not available in Sulfur-free form, as far as I know. Was that Zhen zhu wu tang or Zhen wu tang? Zhen wu tang has Fu zi in it, which may have something to do with the rash (heat?) K. On Thu, Jan 8, 2009 at 10:34 AM, Eugene Kokorin <ek2000 wrote: > Hello Yehuda, > > Thank you for the write up. May I ask if the Tian Ma Gou Ten yin formula > came from the raw herbs in your office or if you got it as a formula from a > supplier somewhere else? > True Tian Ma is very expensive these days and many raw herb suppliers > buy/sell substitutes without even knowing it - it looks just like the real > thing and it takes a lot of experience to tell them apart. I can not tell > them apart and have to trust my suppliers. > It is possible that you had a batch of formula or herb with fake Tian Ma in > it, or a contaminated batch. You may want to contact your herb supplier and > ask them about it - just a possibility to consider. > > Eugene Kokorin, LAc > > ________________________________ > <%40>> > To: Traditional Chinese Herbal Medicine <Traditional Chinese Herbal Medicine%40>; > TCM <Chinese Traditional Medicine <Chinese Traditional Medicine%40yah\ oogroups.com> > > > Wednesday, January 7, 2009 8:29:20 PM > allergic reaction to Tian Ma > > > Dear colleagues, > > I wanted to report on an interesting finding. I have been treating a > complicated 71 year old patient for the past two weeks specifically for > vertigo and low back pain. My differential diagnosis is Kidney Yin and Yang > vacuity, fluid accumulation with Liver Qi stagnation and liver Yang rising > at the root. I prescribed Zhen Zhu Wu Tang and Tian Ma Gou teng Yin. The > patient initially felt significant improvement in his symptoms for a day or > so, and then they returned. When he came in for his second treatment on > Monday of this week, his wife noticed what appeared to be the beginning of a > rash on his left arm, but no where else. The next day, yesterday, huge > purple welts appeared on his left arm, which burned. I just had them come in > and check all the herbs in these two formulas for possible allergic > reactions in Chen and Chen. The only herb which was listed as presenting > rash as a possible side effect was Tian Ma. I told him > to stop the two formulas immediately, and gave him Qing Dai San to mix with > sesame oil and make into a Gao, and to take internally, Lian Qiao Bai Du > Pian for two days. Also I encouraged him to drink diluted luke warm lemon > juice and water (1/4 lemon to 8oz of water) to help the liver expel the > pathogen. I will report on the results. Has anyone ever seen such a reaction > to Tian Ma. BTW, this is the second time in my years of practice that I have > seen such a reaction. The other time it was from Huang Bai. > > Respectfully, > > > > > > www.traditionaljewi shmedicine. net > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 8, 2009 Report Share Posted January 8, 2009 Angela: I also think acupuncture/herb treatments can help one get to the point of making the other lifestyle changes to increase success. I like the question about their goal. How about also explaining if they aren't ready to take all the necessary steps, that the course of treatments could help get them there. Eventually, they will have to take on new practices to reach their best health and maintain it. Anne -- Anne C. Crowley, L.Ac., M.Ac., Dipl.Ac. www.LaPlataAcupuncture.com -------------- Original message ---------------------- " Angela Pfaffenberger, PH.D. " <angelapfa > I would make it the clients decision and ask questions like " What is your goal > for this treatment course? " If they say, I just want a magic cure, I'd say > : " This is not realistic,acupuncture acts together with other factors to increase > health. Do you want to do what it takes? " If they say: " I don't know. " I'd say: > " Why don't you think about it and let me know when you are ready to go forward. " > I guess I see the client as being in charge and I support them in their journey. > But I also want to acknowledge that not all clients are a good match for one's > approach, some people just drive me crazy. > > This is based on 2 psychological techniques, Motivational Interviewing and > Stages of Change. It's very useful. > Regards, > Angela Pfaffenberger, Ph.D. > > angelapfa > > www.InnerhealthSalem.com > > Phone: 503 364 3022 > - > > Chinese Medicine > Thursday, January 08, 2009 11:24 AM > Re: allergic reaction to Tian Ma > > > Yehuda, > Thanks for sharing. > > Sometimes skin rashes pop up from those who are hyper-sensitive to > sulfur-dioxide from the herbs, > but they are usually red, not purple welts. > Is this a new patient who is for the first time taking Chinese herbs? > > I've seen the sulfur-dioxide allergy show up a couple of times, > when I was a student at the school clinicnwhich used sulfured herbs. > When I went back to ask them if they are allergic to sulphur, that came up > positive from their allopathic history. > But, of course, we never mention that the herbs we use may have > sulfur-dioxide content which is used as a fumigant. > > Tian ma (gastrodia) is an endangered herb and is not available in > Sulfur-free form, as far as I know. > > Was that Zhen zhu wu tang or Zhen wu tang? > Zhen wu tang has Fu zi in it, which may have something to do with the rash > (heat?) > > K. > > On Thu, Jan 8, 2009 at 10:34 AM, Eugene Kokorin <ek2000 wrote: > > > Hello Yehuda, > > > > Thank you for the write up. May I ask if the Tian Ma Gou Ten yin formula > > came from the raw herbs in your office or if you got it as a formula from a > > supplier somewhere else? > > True Tian Ma is very expensive these days and many raw herb suppliers > > buy/sell substitutes without even knowing it - it looks just like the real > > thing and it takes a lot of experience to tell them apart. I can not tell > > them apart and have to trust my suppliers. > > It is possible that you had a batch of formula or herb with fake Tian Ma in > > it, or a contaminated batch. You may want to contact your herb supplier and > > ask them about it - just a possibility to consider. > > > > Eugene Kokorin, LAc > > > > ________________________________ > > <%40>> > > To: > Traditional Chinese Herbal Medicine <Traditional Chinese Herbal Medicine%40>; > > TCM > <Chinese Traditional Medicine <Chinese Traditional Medicine%40yah > oogroups.com> > > > > > Wednesday, January 7, 2009 8:29:20 PM > > allergic reaction to Tian Ma > > > > > > Dear colleagues, > > > > I wanted to report on an interesting finding. I have been treating a > > complicated 71 year old patient for the past two weeks specifically for > > vertigo and low back pain. My differential diagnosis is Kidney Yin and Yang > > vacuity, fluid accumulation with Liver Qi stagnation and liver Yang rising > > at the root. I prescribed Zhen Zhu Wu Tang and Tian Ma Gou teng Yin. The > > patient initially felt significant improvement in his symptoms for a day or > > so, and then they returned. When he came in for his second treatment on > > Monday of this week, his wife noticed what appeared to be the beginning of a > > rash on his left arm, but no where else. The next day, yesterday, huge > > purple welts appeared on his left arm, which burned. I just had them come in > > and check all the herbs in these two formulas for possible allergic > > reactions in Chen and Chen. The only herb which was listed as presenting > > rash as a possible side effect was Tian Ma. I told him > > to stop the two formulas immediately, and gave him Qing Dai San to mix with > > sesame oil and make into a Gao, and to take internally, Lian Qiao Bai Du > > Pian for two days. Also I encouraged him to drink diluted luke warm lemon > > juice and water (1/4 lemon to 8oz of water) to help the liver expel the > > pathogen. I will report on the results. Has anyone ever seen such a reaction > > to Tian Ma. BTW, this is the second time in my years of practice that I have > > seen such a reaction. The other time it was from Huang Bai. > > > > Respectfully, > > > > > > > > > > > > www.traditionaljewi shmedicine. net > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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