No problem

[Guest guest]

Hi Jason; I also agree that this thread is no longer useful. I get what you're

saying and I largely agree. I just have questions phrased by the devil's

advocate. From my (very impoverished) experience with chinese sources and so on,

I sometimes get a sense that some things are hinted at and not stated clearly. I

am sometimes interested in those seeming hints.

 

Anyhow, I do appreciate what you have written, and I do read your posts

carefully..

 

Thanks again, and till next time,

 

Hugo

 

 

________________________________

Hugo Ramiro

http://middlemedicine.wordpress.com

http://www.chinesemedicaltherapies.org

 

 

 

 

 

________________________________

 

Chinese Medicine

Monday, 15 December, 2008 20:54:06

RE: Re: LV/GB Digestive Complaint Case

 

 

Hugo,

 

I guess I am a bit dense here, but I feel this conversation is falling off

into the ether, or at least out of " my " clinical reality.

 

I really don't think it matters if you can isolate a compound from sheng di

and that this compound may be drying. Honestly at this point you haven't

even proven that this is true. But more importantly, we, in CM, do not deal

with any such approach to prescribing. We deal with the whole herb. Sheng di

is moistening, it nourishes yin and generates fluids, and as we know it is

bitter, and far from drying.

 

Your assumptions are not backed by anything that I have ever read, or

experienced clinically. To move forward please provide some evidence of you

ideas, not just theoretical thoughts.I just cannot follow philosophical

discussions about " possible " aspects of " possible " herbal constitutions.

Finally, my simple mind only is interested in how we use the herbs

clinically and what that means in the treatment of disease. This is however

my understanding of where the attributes of herbs come from, the clinic.

 

Finally, one cannot just make up ideas based on an herbs flavor. Flavor is

only a guideline. One must see what it does, as a whole, in the human body.

So to answer your question, it is obvious to me, and I assume most

herbalists, that the flavor is not some absolute truth. Therefore it is

obvious (to me) that every bitter herb is not drying. Nor is every herb that

is acrid and warm drying. I have to say the burden of proof is on you, since

CM literature supports these basic ideas. To sum up, there is no way I will

agree that shengdi is drying, until I see something substantial. As stated

pervious I have never seen dang gui or sheng di damage yin or dry someone

out. Thanks though for the conversation, and please don't take offense if I

do not respond anymore.

 

Respectfully,

 

-

 

Traditional_ Chinese_Medicine

[Traditional_ Chinese_Medicine ] On Behalf Of Hugo

Ramiro

Sunday, December 14, 2008 5:07 PM

 

Re: Re: LV/GB Digestive Complaint Case

 

Hi Jason:

 

" I think I posted an example, sheng di huang is bitter and not drying. "

 

Let me try one last time:

 

Sheng Di Huang may have a moistening function that overbears (tremendously)

its bitter drying function. Doesn't mean the drying function is not there.

I.e. chemical isolation may be able to derive a compound from sheng di,

that, when alone, acts to dry. This is what I am talking about: so, once

again, simply answering " it is not " (a statement of fact) does not do

anything for the discussion which has to do with the applicability, range

and limitation of the theoretical descriptions that we use to manipulate

herbs.

Is there anything in the CM theory (I don't know, so I am asking) that

states " there are times when an herb has a bitter flavour *and that bitter

flavour is _entirely_ devoid of any drying function* " ? In fact, yin-yang

theory which repudiates the idea of unipolar purity, would state that all

herbs must contain some seed or activity of their opposites. It /is/ a

theoretical question that may or may not have an impact on

subtler aspects of clinical work. Nevertheless, that is my question.

I hope that was clearer - I am not arguing statements of fact, which are

clear, categorical and act as blocks to penetrative insight.

 

Hugo