Guest guest Posted December 11, 2008 Report Share Posted December 11, 2008 Hello all, I would like to solicit opinions about what would happen if Gou Teng were not added last, but instead were added with all the other herbs. I learned that the active ingredients in Gou teng that extinguish wind are destroyed if cooked more than 10 or so minutes. Now my question: Would it be advisable to simply add more gou teng to the formula at the end in order to get the extinguish wind effect, or would that pose dosing problems. Many thanks in advance. David Toone, L.Ac. 441 Selborne Way Palmetto, GA 30268 770.780.9608 info www.davidtoone.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 12, 2008 Report Share Posted December 12, 2008 i don't really see your logic here: if you are wanting to add more at the end, why not just follow the trad instructions and add the herb in the last 5-7 min? Chinese Medicine On Thu, Dec 11, 2008 at 6:53 PM, davidetoone <davidetoone wrote: > Hello all, > > I would like to solicit opinions about what would happen if Gou Teng were > not added last, but > instead were added with all the other herbs. I learned that the active > ingredients in Gou teng > that extinguish wind are destroyed if cooked more than 10 or so minutes. > > Now my question: Would it be advisable to simply add more gou teng to the > formula at the > end in order to get the extinguish wind effect, or would that pose dosing > problems. > > Many thanks in advance. > > David Toone, L.Ac. > 441 Selborne Way > Palmetto, GA 30268 > 770.780.9608 > info <info%40davidtoone.com> > www.davidtoone.com > > > -- Kath Bartlett, LAc, MS, BA UCLA Oriental Medicine Experienced, Dedicated, Effective Flying Dragon Liniment: Effective pain relief for muscles & joints Formulated by Kath Bartlett, Traditional Chinese Herbalist Available at Asheville Center for : www.FlyingDragonLiniment.com and from the following suppliers: Kamwo Herbal Pharmacy: NY - Chinatown https://www.kamwo.com/shop/product.php?productid=17442 & cat=0 & page=1 Golden Needle Acupuncture, Herbal & Medical Supply - Candler, NC http://www.goldenneedleonline.com/index.php?page=categories & category=14 & vendor= & \ product=5554 & pg= Asheville Center For 70 Woodfin Place, Suite West Wing Two Asheville, NC 28801 828.258.2777 kbartlett www.AcupunctureAsheville.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 12, 2008 Report Share Posted December 12, 2008 I am making an extract of Yi Gan (san) Tang. About 30 days worth. I have a person come in to assist when I am busy in the clinic. Usually, she does a good job, but this time she forgot and added the gou teng with the rest of the herbs. By the time I caught the mistake the herbs had been cooking for quite awhile. It was partially my fault as well, since I clearly did not state that Gou Teng should be added last in my instructions. Thanks David On Dec 11, 2008, at 10:48 PM, wrote: > i don't really see your logic here: if you are wanting to add more > at the > end, why not just follow the trad instructions and add the herb in > the last > 5-7 min? > > Chinese Medicine > > On Thu, Dec 11, 2008 at 6:53 PM, davidetoone <davidetoone > wrote: > > > Hello all, > > > > I would like to solicit opinions about what would happen if Gou > Teng were > > not added last, but > > instead were added with all the other herbs. I learned that the > active > > ingredients in Gou teng > > that extinguish wind are destroyed if cooked more than 10 or so > minutes. > > > > Now my question: Would it be advisable to simply add more gou teng > to the > > formula at the > > end in order to get the extinguish wind effect, or would that pose > dosing > > problems. > > > > Many thanks in advance. > > > > David Toone, L.Ac. > > 441 Selborne Way > > Palmetto, GA 30268 > > 770.780.9608 > > info <info%40davidtoone.com> > > www.davidtoone.com > > > > > > > > -- > > Oriental Medicine > Experienced, Dedicated, Effective > > Flying Dragon Liniment: > Effective pain relief for muscles & joints > Formulated by Kath Bartlett, Traditional Chinese Herbalist > Available at Asheville Center for : > www.FlyingDragonLiniment.com > > and from the following suppliers: > Kamwo Herbal Pharmacy: NY - Chinatown > https://www.kamwo.com/shop/product.php?productid=17442 & cat=0 & page=1 > > Golden Needle Acupuncture, Herbal & Medical Supply - Candler, NC > http://www.goldenneedleonline.com/index.php?page=categories & category=14 & vendor= & \ product=5554 & pg= > > Asheville Center For > 70 Woodfin Place, Suite West Wing Two > Asheville, NC 28801 828.258.2777 > kbartlett > www.AcupunctureAsheville.com > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 13, 2008 Report Share Posted December 13, 2008 Hi David; I would just add the herbs again at the end in that case. Hugo ________________________________ Hugo Ramiro http://middlemedicine.wordpress.com http://www.chinesemedicaltherapies.org ________________________________ David Toone <davidetoone Chinese Medicine Friday, 12 December, 2008 7:58:44 Re: Gou Teng as an add last herb I am making an extract of Yi Gan (san) Tang. About 30 days worth. I have a person come in to assist when I am busy in the clinic. Usually, she does a good job, but this time she forgot and added the gou teng with the rest of the herbs. By the time I caught the mistake the herbs had been cooking for quite awhile. It was partially my fault as well, since I clearly did not state that Gou Teng should be added last in my instructions. Thanks David On Dec 11, 2008, at 10:48 PM, wrote: > i don't really see your logic here: if you are wanting to add more > at the > end, why not just follow the trad instructions and add the herb in > the last > 5-7 min? > > Chinese Medicine > > On Thu, Dec 11, 2008 at 6:53 PM, davidetoone <davidetoone@ gmail.com> > wrote: > > > Hello all, > > > > I would like to solicit opinions about what would happen if Gou > Teng were > > not added last, but > > instead were added with all the other herbs. I learned that the > active > > ingredients in Gou teng > > that extinguish wind are destroyed if cooked more than 10 or so > minutes. > > > > Now my question: Would it be advisable to simply add more gou teng > to the > > formula at the > > end in order to get the extinguish wind effect, or would that pose > dosing > > problems. > > > > Many thanks in advance. > > > > David Toone, L.Ac. > > 441 Selborne Way > > Palmetto, GA 30268 > > 770.780.9608 > > info (AT) davidtoone (DOT) com <info%40davidtoone. com> > > www.davidtoone. com > > > > > > > > -- > > Oriental Medicine > Experienced, Dedicated, Effective > > Flying Dragon Liniment: > Effective pain relief for muscles & joints > Formulated by Kath Bartlett, Traditional Chinese Herbalist > Available at Asheville Center for : > www.FlyingDragonLin iment.com > > and from the following suppliers: > Kamwo Herbal Pharmacy: NY - Chinatown > https://www. kamwo.com/ shop/product. php?productid= 17442 & cat= 0 & page=1 > > Golden Needle Acupuncture, Herbal & Medical Supply - Candler, NC > http://www.goldenne edleonline. com/index. php?page= categories & category= 14 & vendor= & product= 5554 & pg= > > Asheville Center For > 70 Woodfin Place, Suite West Wing Two > Asheville, NC 28801 828.258.2777 > kbartlett@Acupunctu reAsheville. com > www.AcupunctureAshe ville.com > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 14, 2008 Report Share Posted December 14, 2008 Hi David, I guess you can add some more (gou teng decoction only, separately prepared) to enhance the density of gou teng. Some wind-extinguishing molecues may remain in previous one anyway. Regards, SUNG, Yuk-ming Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 14, 2008 Report Share Posted December 14, 2008 Thanks for the feedback on gou teng. David Toone, L.Ac. 441 Selborne Way Palmetto, GA 30268 770.780.9608 www.davidtoone.com Chinese Medicine , Hugo Ramiro <subincor wrote: > > Hi David; I would just add the herbs again at the end in that case. > > Hugo > > > ________________________________ > Hugo Ramiro > http://middlemedicine.wordpress.com > http://www.chinesemedicaltherapies.org > > > > > > ________________________________ > David Toone <davidetoone > Chinese Medicine > Friday, 12 December, 2008 7:58:44 > Re: Gou Teng as an add last herb > > > I am making an extract of Yi Gan (san) Tang. About 30 days worth. I > have a person come in to assist when I am busy in the clinic. Usually, > she does a good job, but this time she forgot and added the gou teng > with the rest of the herbs. By the time I caught the mistake the herbs > had been cooking for quite awhile. It was partially my fault as well, > since I clearly did not state that Gou Teng should be added last in my > instructions. > > Thanks > > David > On Dec 11, 2008, at 10:48 PM, wrote: > > > i don't really see your logic here: if you are wanting to add more > > at the > > end, why not just follow the trad instructions and add the herb in > > the last > > 5-7 min? > > > > Chinese Medicine > > > > On Thu, Dec 11, 2008 at 6:53 PM, davidetoone <davidetoone@ gmail.com> > > wrote: > > > > > Hello all, > > > > > > I would like to solicit opinions about what would happen if Gou > > Teng were > > > not added last, but > > > instead were added with all the other herbs. I learned that the > > active > > > ingredients in Gou teng > > > that extinguish wind are destroyed if cooked more than 10 or so > > minutes. > > > > > > Now my question: Would it be advisable to simply add more gou teng > > to the > > > formula at the > > > end in order to get the extinguish wind effect, or would that pose > > dosing > > > problems. > > > > > > Many thanks in advance. > > > > > > David Toone, L.Ac. > > > 441 Selborne Way > > > Palmetto, GA 30268 > > > 770.780.9608 > > > info (AT) davidtoone (DOT) com <info%40davidtoone. com> > > > www.davidtoone. com > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > Oriental Medicine > > Experienced, Dedicated, Effective > > > > Flying Dragon Liniment: > > Effective pain relief for muscles & joints > > Formulated by Kath Bartlett, Traditional Chinese Herbalist > > Available at Asheville Center for : > > www.FlyingDragonLin iment.com > > > > and from the following suppliers: > > Kamwo Herbal Pharmacy: NY - Chinatown > > https://www. kamwo.com/ shop/product. php?productid= 17442 & cat= 0 & page=1 > > > > Golden Needle Acupuncture, Herbal & Medical Supply - Candler, NC > > http://www.goldenne edleonline. com/index. php?page= categories & category= 14 & vendor= & product= 5554 & pg= > > > > Asheville Center For > > 70 Woodfin Place, Suite West Wing Two > > Asheville, NC 28801 828.258.2777 > > kbartlett@Acupunctu reAsheville. com > > www.AcupunctureAshe ville.com > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 14, 2008 Report Share Posted December 14, 2008 Dear David and Hugo, Not necessarily! According to Zhang JI, Gou Teng needs to be specifically added at the end of cooking when particularly treating liver yang rising (hypertension). However not when using it in a formula to treat liver wind. One other point that he makes which is not usually mentioned, is that Gou Teng also mildly enriches yin. All the best, --- On Sun, 12/14/08, davidetoone <davidetoone wrote: davidetoone <davidetoone Re: Gou Teng as an add last herb Chinese Medicine Sunday, December 14, 2008, 10:22 AM Thanks for the feedback on gou teng. David Toone, L.Ac. 441 Selborne Way Palmetto, GA 30268 770.780.9608 www.davidtoone. com Traditional_ Chinese_Medicine , Hugo Ramiro <subincor@.. ..> wrote: > > Hi David; I would just add the herbs again at the end in that case. > > Hugo > > > ____________ _________ _________ __ > Hugo Ramiro > http://middlemedici ne.wordpress. com > http://www.chinesem edicaltherapies. org > > > > > > ____________ _________ _________ __ > David Toone <davidetoone@ ...> > > Friday, 12 December, 2008 7:58:44 > Re: Gou Teng as an add last herb > > > I am making an extract of Yi Gan (san) Tang. About 30 days worth. I > have a person come in to assist when I am busy in the clinic. Usually, > she does a good job, but this time she forgot and added the gou teng > with the rest of the herbs. By the time I caught the mistake the herbs > had been cooking for quite awhile. It was partially my fault as well, > since I clearly did not state that Gou Teng should be added last in my > instructions. > > Thanks > > David > On Dec 11, 2008, at 10:48 PM, wrote: > > > i don't really see your logic here: if you are wanting to add more > > at the > > end, why not just follow the trad instructions and add the herb in > > the last > > 5-7 min? > > > > Chinese Medicine > > > > On Thu, Dec 11, 2008 at 6:53 PM, davidetoone <davidetoone@ gmail.com> > > wrote: > > > > > Hello all, > > > > > > I would like to solicit opinions about what would happen if Gou > > Teng were > > > not added last, but > > > instead were added with all the other herbs. I learned that the > > active > > > ingredients in Gou teng > > > that extinguish wind are destroyed if cooked more than 10 or so > > minutes. > > > > > > Now my question: Would it be advisable to simply add more gou teng > > to the > > > formula at the > > > end in order to get the extinguish wind effect, or would that pose > > dosing > > > problems. > > > > > > Many thanks in advance. > > > > > > David Toone, L.Ac. > > > 441 Selborne Way > > > Palmetto, GA 30268 > > > 770.780.9608 > > > info (AT) davidtoone (DOT) com <info%40davidtoone. com> > > > www.davidtoone. com > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > Oriental Medicine > > Experienced, Dedicated, Effective > > > > Flying Dragon Liniment: > > Effective pain relief for muscles & joints > > Formulated by Kath Bartlett, Traditional Chinese Herbalist > > Available at Asheville Center for : > > www.FlyingDragonLin iment.com > > > > and from the following suppliers: > > Kamwo Herbal Pharmacy: NY - Chinatown > > https://www. kamwo.com/ shop/product. php?productid= 17442 & cat= 0 & page=1 > > > > Golden Needle Acupuncture, Herbal & Medical Supply - Candler, NC > > http://www.goldenne edleonline. com/index. php?page= categories & category= 14 & vendor= & product= 5554 & pg= > > > > Asheville Center For > > 70 Woodfin Place, Suite West Wing Two > > Asheville, NC 28801 828.258.2777 > > kbartlett@Acupunctu reAsheville. com > > www.AcupunctureAshe ville.com > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 14, 2008 Report Share Posted December 14, 2008 Yehuda, Thanks. Sounds like in this case Gou Teng is more like Da Huang, where the nature of the herb is not destroyed by cooking it differently, but merely changed. Under your scenario, fully cooked Gou Teng might be a better fit for Yi Gan San, for some presentations where internal wind causes in facial ticks in children. David Toone, L.Ac. Health without Drugs or Surgery 441 Selborne Way Palmetto, GA 30268 770.780.9608 www.davidtoone.com Chinese Medicine , yehuda frischman < wrote: > > Dear David and Hugo, > > Not necessarily! According to Zhang JI, Gou Teng needs to be specifically added at the end of cooking when particularly treating liver yang rising (hypertension). However not when using it in a formula to treat liver wind. One other point that he makes which is not usually mentioned, is that Gou Teng also mildly enriches yin. > > All the best, > > > > > > > > --- On Sun, 12/14/08, davidetoone <davidetoone wrote: > > davidetoone <davidetoone > Re: Gou Teng as an add last herb > Chinese Medicine > Sunday, December 14, 2008, 10:22 AM Thanks for the feedback on gou teng. > > David Toone, L.Ac. > 441 Selborne Way > Palmetto, GA 30268 > 770.780.9608 > www.davidtoone. com > > Traditional_ Chinese_Medicine , Hugo Ramiro <subincor@ ..> > wrote: > > > > Hi David; I would just add the herbs again at the end in that case. > > > > Hugo > > > > > > ____________ _________ _________ __ > > Hugo Ramiro > > http://middlemedici ne.wordpress. com > > http://www.chinesem edicaltherapies. org > > > > > > > > > > > > ____________ _________ _________ __ > > David Toone <davidetoone@ ...> > > > > Friday, 12 December, 2008 7:58:44 > > Re: Gou Teng as an add last herb > > > > > > I am making an extract of Yi Gan (san) Tang. About 30 days worth. I > > have a person come in to assist when I am busy in the clinic. Usually, > > she does a good job, but this time she forgot and added the gou teng > > with the rest of the herbs. By the time I caught the mistake the herbs > > had been cooking for quite awhile. It was partially my fault as well, > > since I clearly did not state that Gou Teng should be added last in my > > instructions. > > > > Thanks > > > > David > > On Dec 11, 2008, at 10:48 PM, wrote: > > > > > i don't really see your logic here: if you are wanting to add more > > > at the > > > end, why not just follow the trad instructions and add the herb in > > > the last > > > 5-7 min? > > > > > > Chinese Medicine > > > > > > On Thu, Dec 11, 2008 at 6:53 PM, davidetoone <davidetoone@ gmail.com> > > > wrote: > > > > > > > Hello all, > > > > > > > > I would like to solicit opinions about what would happen if Gou > > > Teng were > > > > not added last, but > > > > instead were added with all the other herbs. I learned that the > > > active > > > > ingredients in Gou teng > > > > that extinguish wind are destroyed if cooked more than 10 or so > > > minutes. > > > > > > > > Now my question: Would it be advisable to simply add more gou teng > > > to the > > > > formula at the > > > > end in order to get the extinguish wind effect, or would that pose > > > dosing > > > > problems. > > > > > > > > Many thanks in advance. > > > > > > > > David Toone, L.Ac. > > > > 441 Selborne Way > > > > Palmetto, GA 30268 > > > > 770.780.9608 > > > > info (AT) davidtoone (DOT) com <info%40davidtoone. com> > > > > www.davidtoone. com > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > > Oriental Medicine > > > Experienced, Dedicated, Effective > > > > > > Flying Dragon Liniment: > > > Effective pain relief for muscles & joints > > > Formulated by Kath Bartlett, Traditional Chinese Herbalist > > > Available at Asheville Center for : > > > www.FlyingDragonLin iment.com > > > > > > and from the following suppliers: > > > Kamwo Herbal Pharmacy: NY - Chinatown > > > https://www. kamwo.com/ shop/product. php?productid= 17442 & cat= 0 & page=1 > > > > > > Golden Needle Acupuncture, Herbal & Medical Supply - Candler, NC > > > http://www.goldenne edleonline. com/index. php?page= categories & category= > 14 & vendor= & product= 5554 & pg= > > > > > > Asheville Center For > > > 70 Woodfin Place, Suite West Wing Two > > > Asheville, NC 28801 828.258.2777 > > > kbartlett@Acupunctu reAsheville. com > > > www.AcupunctureAshe ville.com > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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