Guest guest Posted December 9, 2008 Report Share Posted December 9, 2008 Thanks. I didn't know that Lyme disease sometimes show on the tongue that way. She said she never had Lyme disease, but it's possible it could have happened much earlier, before it became so accepted and widespread, and been missed. How accurate are tests for Lyme disease when it must have occurred at least ten years ago? And, as below, are intravenous antibiotics the most usual protocol if detected? The presentation seems to have stabilized to a constant, somewhat arthritic, not debilitating state. (For most patients, oral antibiotics (doxycycline or amoxicillin) are prescribed for 21 days. When symptoms indicate nervous system involvement or a severe episode of Lyme disease, intravenous antibiotic (ceftriaxone) may be given for 14-30 days. Some physicians consider intravenous ceftriaxone the best therapy for any late manifestation of disease, but treatments for late Lyme disease are still controversial as of 2003. Corticosteroids (oral) may be prescribed if eye abnormalities occur, but they should not be used without first consulting an eye doctor.) --- On Tue, 12/9/08, Rissa Guest <rissaguest wrote: Rissa Guest <rissaguest Re: Re: 8 Extra, black tongue, pls help Chinese Medicine Tuesday, December 9, 2008, 9:35 AM This might not help you, I can't tell you from a TCM prospective but I can tell you I see a black coating in some of my Lyme patients. Has she been tested for Lyme? Clarissa --- On Tue, 12/9/08, <johnkokko (AT) gmail (DOT) com> wrote: <johnkokko (AT) gmail (DOT) com> Re: Re: 8 Extra, black tongue, pls help Tuesday, December 9, 2008, 2:03 AM Traditionally, black coat (middle of the tongue) can be Da cheng qi tang presentation. .. what are her BM movements? and there's the pepto-bismol side effect... On Mon, Dec 8, 2008 at 9:26 PM, mystir <ykcul_ritsym@ > wrote: > Hi. I am asking for help with diagnosis and treatment of a patient. I > will post their clinical presentation, but since it is extensive, I want to > first just ask; Does anyone have experience with a person whose tongue has a > black patch in the middle of the tongue body? > How can you tell true interior heat from true cold, false heat from false > cold, and how ominous is this presentation? I know the standard diagnostic > TCM associations that indicate the patients subjective experience of lack of > warmth, or heat. > This is the most complicated I have seen, and I want to help. The eyes, > mental state is very clear present and positive, and the continuity of the > mental state is natural, not forced by office visits. I am thinking the > root is in childhood emotional difficulty, which she agrees. Grew up in a > rough town with an abused, negligent mother, had to fight her way( once by > hitting a boy with a rock to keep him from raping her) but unfortunately > continued into a marriage where she felt things where honest, but the man > lied about a vasectomy; she got pregnant and was absolutely against > abortion. I met her son and he is a beautiful boy, has adhd and needs > constant attention. The father's family suffers from this pervasive > disharmony. I have her permission to talk about this to you all. > The patch is firmly rooted, with a very little purple at some of the > border of the apx 1 inch patch. It is in the stomach/spleen position-but > geez, that is only one area of intermittent complaint. Pain in; neck, > shoulder, back, lumbar, legs (along bladder and gall bladder channel > trajectories. ) There are nodules that come and go with massage and > acupuncture, and the patient is very compliant with varies herbal stratagies > we have tried. I feel I am missing something. > She does not use or overuse antibiotics, no excessive alcohol consumption > She is 39 yrs old, strong physique and on the lean side, slightly > assymetrical body. Left leg slightly shorter > than right, left breast slightly smaller than right, with an extra set > of cervical/thoracic ribs. Pain from pressure in the neck, and legs from > compensating when walking etc. Relief from pain with vigorous massage, > acupuncture, heat. Previous and intermittent uveitis. Seems to be > pre-heaven. Pulses are a little weak in both deep kidney positions, more > weak in kd yang pos., slightly weak lung, stomach pulses seem good. No > appearance of cancer or tumors in tests. A little discomfort at menses, she > is another woman who can feel which ovary is active. > Main complaint; pain > If anyone wants more info, pls let me know if you want me to give more > info, as I said the presentation is extensive and illusive, more of a > constituional than > > --- On Fri, 12/5/08, Emmauel Segmen <mrsegmen (AT) comcast (DOT) net<mrsegmen% 40comcast ..net>> > wrote: > Emmauel Segmen <mrsegmen (AT) comcast (DOT) net <mrsegmen%40comcast .net>> > Re: 8 Extra > <Traditional_ Chinese_Medicine %40. com> > Friday, December 5, 2008, 5:15 AM > > Jason R., Jason B., Kokko, Karen and other Responders, > > This is a rich collection of information. Excellent thread in the manner of > a graduate seminar. I think Jason B.'s answer is a good one (thanks) and > appreciate what Jason Robertson has to disclose about the 8-Extra dinner > conversation with Jason B. as well as his description of what is a > " harmonizer " or even an integrator function for the 8 Extraordinary Vessels. > > > My sense is that physiological integration begins only when there is good > differentiation and good function in each organ and organ system, i.e. they > don't impinge on each other. Your thoughts, Jason R., on this topic are > deeper and more considered than my own. Please carry on. I'm very interested > in your clinical analysis. I'm especially interested in how the 8 Extra. > Vess. as harmonizers might free up channels in stasis. > > I don't see any contradiction in other responders presenting classical > differences between Chinese and Japanese styles of treatment that are well > known and established. I've seen experts in tui na and qi gong address this > issue, the former with more immediate results and the latter with more > gradual results. While I agree with you Jason R. that this is complex and > not a linear one to one, Dr. Kang surprises me with how quickly he gets > results. I'll ask Dr. Ping Qi Kang for his thoughts on this. I want also to > hear, Jason R., you thoughts on differentiation of channels as the most > important part of integration from any of these treatment protocols. > > Perhaps, Jason R., that your own normally deep needling technique in > someway accesses what Karen was describing about Jeffrey Yuen's work in this > area. I think that Karen would have a hard time trying to describe Yuen's > profoundly complex needling technique, but I for one would love to hear what > she thinks. Jeffrey's presentation is challenging, high velocity, complex > and assumes a depth of knowledge and facility with Taoist ideas that I do > not have in the realm of Chinese medicine ... though I like pondering his > words. I'd be interested to hear more from Karen if she feels inclined to > say a few more words. > > Respectfully and gratefully, > > Emmanuel Segmen > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 10, 2008 Report Share Posted December 10, 2008 Hi there, Black tongue is generally considered either extreme heat or extreme cold. But in this case, this is an interesting case. The pulses seem to be fine, there is no signs of either deficiency nor excess. So, this would be a disharmony. If the tongue is covered with black tongue and wet = extreme cold. If the tongue is covered with black tongue and dry = extreme heat. If the tongue is covered with black tongue and pain = blood stagnation. However, there is no sign of either heat or cold, we must eliminate cold or heat. And there is no sign of either deficiency or excess in symptoms nor in pulses. I would eliminate them all. So, what is left?????? The middle is always presented the Middlejiao or GI ( gastrointestinal problem ). If the middlejiao has turned into different color, it means that the middlejiao has trouble. But in this case, the tongue is covered with black coat, it does not turn itself into black, but covered with black coat. This tells me something else has caused this problem and brought a black coat over the middle part, not the sides, top, nor the bottom... The questions would be : Is this food related ? Drug ? alcohol ?, smoking ? Something must be related to food and drink !!! Something has caused the disharmony of Qi and Blood. If our Qi and blood circulate smoothly, there is no illness nor disease. So, if the middlejiao has black coat, but has no sign of midjiao problems such as abdominal discomfort, distention, gas, bloating, frontal headache, sweating, no constipation nor diarrhea, this means that the midjiao has not been affected yet. Then what black thing can be brought to the middle ? The black color ( kidney )must stay at the bottom, but it floats into the middle and stay there. Is there a leak from the kidney? Or is there a kidney disharmony? If it is black and dry, it is kidney Qi is floating? Only Qi can float. Yin will drip, and fall.... If it is black and wet, it is kidney yin is leaking, isn't it? Kidney Qi is floating, the kidney pulse will be slippery or wiry or thin and fast, or floating, symptoms of aching or weak back, legs, or tingling, the bottom part will fill empty or weak. Kidney yin is leaking, the pulse will be thin and weak or floating or short pulse, symptoms of light headache, dizziness, vertigo, tinnitus, dry skin, skinny , dark skin, numbness... Kidney disharmony, pulse may be irregular ( stop and go ), symptoms of insomnia, irritability, hot temper... What has caused the kidney problems here???? Is that a fear or a hidden fright if not from food nor drink? Is there a fearful hidden plan? Or what drug has damaged the kidney functionality? Look for kidney problems or Stomach problems? In 5 elements, Kidney excess can attack the Sto/ SP ( water counteracts the earth ). So, in this case, there is no excess nor deficiency, but the disharmony between the Stomach and the kidney. IT could be the SP and kidney or Sp and UB or Sto and UB. There would be a lot of fun if we are keeping on and asking for more questions before coming into a conclusion, diagnosis and treatment............ Good luck !!! Nam Nguyen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 10, 2008 Report Share Posted December 10, 2008 1st Is px's leg truly shorter than the other or is her pelvic axis out of kilter? Use Yang Wei to " pull " higher side down. Check Matsumoto's 8 X book for extra discussion. Might try like this order face down: SJ5, GB 41 bilaterally or with SI3 UB62 if there's back pain. Then choose point's to rectify shoulder, girdle, head axes, e.g., GB 21 UB 11, shiqizhuixia, GB 35 on opposite side. Say top left is outta kilter then GB 35 all other GB pts on left. y.c. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 10, 2008 Report Share Posted December 10, 2008 Hi Dr. Nguyen, thank you (and everyone else) for taking the time to walk me through your analysis in this case. Dr. Nguyen, I enjoy your very lively, flexible, and logical use of the traditional imagery from the basic to the complicated. I don't want to rush to a conclusion as this is not an emergency. Seeing where something is ok, and moving to the next hypothesis. If it is all right with you, I have further information, and would like your thoughts on my interpretation. You said: " So, if the middlejiao has black coat, but has no sign of midjiao problems such as abdominal discomfort, distention, gas, bloating, frontal headache, sweating, no constipation nor diarrhea, this means that the midjiao has not been affected yet. Then what black thing can be brought to the middle " ... " What has caused the kidney problems here???? Is that a fear or a hidden fright if not from food nor drink? Is there a fearful hidden plan? " This is where I was looking also. And others in this list have mentioned an emotional factor. But the signs point to the kidney emotiom not the liver now, so fear. I mentioned before that she has had uveitis when she was nineteen, I believe. This was after being robbed on the street twice, while supporting herself working, and going to school. The uveitis had definite liver symptoms (causes?), such as pain radiating up to the left eye, so badly it felt like glass had cut it. This went into remission. There is no signs that strongly indicate liver imbalance dominates now. The black tongue may be a sign of more recent origin, when compared with the pain she has had for many years, since late teenager. I am thinking, of things said during an intake. For example. She has for years had fear of having her child taken away by her resentful ex-husband and his family (they have money and some connections). This fear has lessened over the last year or so, but must have been severe and longstanding enough to cause an injury in the kidney, which may now be overacting on the middle jiao- especially stomach, which is appearing now. Liver does not seem as affected(some menstrual pain- no change in severety, present from the begining of menstruation as a young girl ). Symptoms that make me believe this are; infrequent vomitting, and little appetite, both of which become more present under emotional stress. I would expect the liver to be more apparent, but it isn't. She is a warm, gentle person, and spiritually oriented. And really optimistic. I have asked her to talk about all this. As I said, her boy was born because of a disappointing untruth from her husband, who was abusive to her and later to their son. Her mother was almost as uncompassionate. She broke away from him after ten years, which was difficult. Her own mother was not any help. The boy, even in the womb was overly restless, and is 14 yrs old now. A happy bright young boy/man, but has ADHD,(as does the many in the father's family), goes to a special school, and after her work, his mother attends to him and their home. She is putting a life together for herself, too. If this is a correct evaluation, then supporting and nourishing the kideys are key. If her and her son's wellbeing continues, can I expect the symptom to resolve itself, and the sign will go away? How much to combine this with the main complaint of pain. And the possibility of late Lyme disease is still a concern. I hope this information is useful, and I am not tangential. Thanks for anyone's input. --- On Wed, 12/10/08, dr_namnguyen58 <dr_namnguyen58 wrote: dr_namnguyen58 <dr_namnguyen58 Re: 8 Extra, black tongue, pls help Chinese Medicine Wednesday, December 10, 2008, 12:36 AM Hi there, Black tongue is generally considered either extreme heat or extreme cold. But in this case, this is an interesting case. The pulses seem to be fine, there is no signs of either deficiency nor excess. So, this would be a disharmony. If the tongue is covered with black tongue and wet = extreme cold. If the tongue is covered with black tongue and dry = extreme heat. If the tongue is covered with black tongue and pain = blood stagnation. However, there is no sign of either heat or cold, we must eliminate cold or heat. And there is no sign of either deficiency or excess in symptoms nor in pulses. I would eliminate them all. So, what is left?????? The middle is always presented the Middlejiao or GI ( gastrointestinal problem ). If the middlejiao has turned into different color, it means that the middlejiao has trouble. But in this case, the tongue is covered with black coat, it does not turn itself into black, but covered with black coat. This tells me something else has caused this problem and brought a black coat over the middle part, not the sides, top, nor the bottom... The questions would be : Is this food related ? Drug ? alcohol ?, smoking ? Something must be related to food and drink !!! Something has caused the disharmony of Qi and Blood. If our Qi and blood circulate smoothly, there is no illness nor disease. So, if the middlejiao has black coat, but has no sign of midjiao problems such as abdominal discomfort, distention, gas, bloating, frontal headache, sweating, no constipation nor diarrhea, this means that the midjiao has not been affected yet. Then what black thing can be brought to the middle ? The black color ( kidney )must stay at the bottom, but it floats into the middle and stay there. Is there a leak from the kidney? Or is there a kidney disharmony? If it is black and dry, it is kidney Qi is floating? Only Qi can float. Yin will drip, and fall.... If it is black and wet, it is kidney yin is leaking, isn't it? Kidney Qi is floating, the kidney pulse will be slippery or wiry or thin and fast, or floating, symptoms of aching or weak back, legs, or tingling, the bottom part will fill empty or weak. Kidney yin is leaking, the pulse will be thin and weak or floating or short pulse, symptoms of light headache, dizziness, vertigo, tinnitus, dry skin, skinny , dark skin, numbness... Kidney disharmony, pulse may be irregular ( stop and go ), symptoms of insomnia, irritability, hot temper... What has caused the kidney problems here???? Is that a fear or a hidden fright if not from food nor drink? Is there a fearful hidden plan? Or what drug has damaged the kidney functionality? Look for kidney problems or Stomach problems? In 5 elements, Kidney excess can attack the Sto/ SP ( water counteracts the earth ). So, in this case, there is no excess nor deficiency, but the disharmony between the Stomach and the kidney. IT could be the SP and kidney or Sp and UB or Sto and UB. There would be a lot of fun if we are keeping on and asking for more questions before coming into a conclusion, diagnosis and treatment... ......... Good luck !!! Nam Nguyen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 10, 2008 Report Share Posted December 10, 2008 I will look at this, interesting. Thanks. --- On Wed, 12/10/08, Yangchu Higgins <ycmgh wrote: Yangchu Higgins <ycmgh Re: 8 Extra, black tongue, pls help Chinese Medicine Wednesday, December 10, 2008, 8:05 AM 1st Is px's leg truly shorter than the other or is her pelvic axis out of kilter? Use Yang Wei to " pull " higher side down. Check Matsumoto's 8 X book for extra discussion. Might try like this order face down: SJ5, GB 41 bilaterally or with SI3 UB62 if there's back pain. Then choose point's to rectify shoulder, girdle, head axes, e.g., GB 21 UB 11, shiqizhuixia, GB 35 on opposite side. Say top left is outta kilter then GB 35 all other GB pts on left. y.c. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 10, 2008 Report Share Posted December 10, 2008 Hi. Yes, leg is definitely shorter. That might be offsetting everything else too. Thanks --- On Wed, 12/10/08, Yangchu Higgins <ycmgh wrote: Yangchu Higgins <ycmgh Re: 8 Extra, black tongue, pls help Chinese Medicine Wednesday, December 10, 2008, 8:05 AM 1st Is px's leg truly shorter than the other or is her pelvic axis out of kilter? Use Yang Wei to " pull " higher side down. Check Matsumoto's 8 X book for extra discussion. Might try like this order face down: SJ5, GB 41 bilaterally or with SI3 UB62 if there's back pain. Then choose point's to rectify shoulder, girdle, head axes, e.g., GB 21 UB 11, shiqizhuixia, GB 35 on opposite side. Say top left is outta kilter then GB 35 all other GB pts on left. y.c. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 11, 2008 Report Share Posted December 11, 2008 Hi and thanks. I won't monopolize the activity here with this subject, but if anyone has any more thoughts or insights following the personal information provided, I would be happy to receive them. Through the group or personally. Thank you all again. Fran Cahill --- On Wed, 12/10/08, mystir <ykcul_ritsym wrote: mystir <ykcul_ritsym Re: Re: 8 Extra, black tongue, pls help Chinese Medicine Wednesday, December 10, 2008, 2:49 PM Hi Dr. Nguyen, thank you (and everyone else) for taking the time to walk me through your analysis in this case. Dr. Nguyen, I enjoy your very lively, flexible, and logical use of the traditional imagery from the basic to the complicated. I don't want to rush to a conclusion as this is not an emergency. Seeing where something is ok, and moving to the next hypothesis. If it is all right with you, I have further information, and would like your thoughts on my interpretation. You said: " So, if the middlejiao has black coat, but has no sign of midjiao problems such as abdominal discomfort, distention, gas, bloating, frontal headache, sweating, no constipation nor diarrhea, this means that the midjiao has not been affected yet. Then what black thing can be brought to the middle " ... " What has caused the kidney problems here???? Is that a fear or a hidden fright if not from food nor drink? Is there a fearful hidden plan? " This is where I was looking also. And others in this list have mentioned an emotional factor. But the signs point to the kidney emotiom not the liver now, so fear. I mentioned before that she has had uveitis when she was nineteen, I believe. This was after being robbed on the street twice, while supporting herself working, and going to school. The uveitis had definite liver symptoms (causes?), such as pain radiating up to the left eye, so badly it felt like glass had cut it. This went into remission. There is no signs that strongly indicate liver imbalance dominates now. The black tongue may be a sign of more recent origin, when compared with the pain she has had for many years, since late teenager. I am thinking, of things said during an intake. For example. She has for years had fear of having her child taken away by her resentful ex-husband and his family (they have money and some connections) . This fear has lessened over the last year or so, but must have been severe and longstanding enough to cause an injury in the kidney, which may now be overacting on the middle jiao- especially stomach, which is appearing now. Liver does not seem as affected(some menstrual pain- no change in severety, present from the begining of menstruation as a young girl ). Symptoms that make me believe this are; infrequent vomitting, and little appetite, both of which become more present under emotional stress. I would expect the liver to be more apparent, but it isn't. She is a warm, gentle person, and spiritually oriented. And really optimistic. I have asked her to talk about all this. As I said, her boy was born because of a disappointing untruth from her husband, who was abusive to her and later to their son. Her mother was almost as uncompassionate. She broke away from him after ten years, which was difficult. Her own mother was not any help. The boy, even in the womb was overly restless, and is 14 yrs old now. A happy bright young boy/man, but has ADHD,(as does the many in the father's family), goes to a special school, and after her work, his mother attends to him and their home. She is putting a life together for herself, too. If this is a correct evaluation, then supporting and nourishing the kideys are key. If her and her son's wellbeing continues, can I expect the symptom to resolve itself, and the sign will go away? How much to combine this with the main complaint of pain. And the possibility of late Lyme disease is still a concern. I hope this information is useful, and I am not tangential. Thanks for anyone's input. --- On Wed, 12/10/08, dr_namnguyen58 <dr_namnguyen58@ > wrote: dr_namnguyen58 <dr_namnguyen58@ > Re: 8 Extra, black tongue, pls help Wednesday, December 10, 2008, 12:36 AM Hi there, Black tongue is generally considered either extreme heat or extreme cold. But in this case, this is an interesting case. The pulses seem to be fine, there is no signs of either deficiency nor excess. So, this would be a disharmony. If the tongue is covered with black tongue and wet = extreme cold. If the tongue is covered with black tongue and dry = extreme heat. If the tongue is covered with black tongue and pain = blood stagnation. However, there is no sign of either heat or cold, we must eliminate cold or heat. And there is no sign of either deficiency or excess in symptoms nor in pulses. I would eliminate them all. So, what is left?????? The middle is always presented the Middlejiao or GI ( gastrointestinal problem ). If the middlejiao has turned into different color, it means that the middlejiao has trouble. But in this case, the tongue is covered with black coat, it does not turn itself into black, but covered with black coat. This tells me something else has caused this problem and brought a black coat over the middle part, not the sides, top, nor the bottom... The questions would be : Is this food related ? Drug ? alcohol ?, smoking ? Something must be related to food and drink !!! Something has caused the disharmony of Qi and Blood. If our Qi and blood circulate smoothly, there is no illness nor disease. So, if the middlejiao has black coat, but has no sign of midjiao problems such as abdominal discomfort, distention, gas, bloating, frontal headache, sweating, no constipation nor diarrhea, this means that the midjiao has not been affected yet. Then what black thing can be brought to the middle ? The black color ( kidney )must stay at the bottom, but it floats into the middle and stay there. Is there a leak from the kidney? Or is there a kidney disharmony? If it is black and dry, it is kidney Qi is floating? Only Qi can float. Yin will drip, and fall.... If it is black and wet, it is kidney yin is leaking, isn't it? Kidney Qi is floating, the kidney pulse will be slippery or wiry or thin and fast, or floating, symptoms of aching or weak back, legs, or tingling, the bottom part will fill empty or weak. Kidney yin is leaking, the pulse will be thin and weak or floating or short pulse, symptoms of light headache, dizziness, vertigo, tinnitus, dry skin, skinny , dark skin, numbness... Kidney disharmony, pulse may be irregular ( stop and go ), symptoms of insomnia, irritability, hot temper... What has caused the kidney problems here???? Is that a fear or a hidden fright if not from food nor drink? Is there a fearful hidden plan? Or what drug has damaged the kidney functionality? Look for kidney problems or Stomach problems? In 5 elements, Kidney excess can attack the Sto/ SP ( water counteracts the earth ). So, in this case, there is no excess nor deficiency, but the disharmony between the Stomach and the kidney. IT could be the SP and kidney or Sp and UB or Sto and UB. There would be a lot of fun if we are keeping on and asking for more questions before coming into a conclusion, diagnosis and treatment... ......... Good luck !!! Nam Nguyen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 11, 2008 Report Share Posted December 11, 2008 Dear friend, I looked into symptoms, there is infrequent vomiting, and little appetite. Let's look into this : infrequent vomiting is a Stomach Qi not descending, or we can say its Qi rebels. Little appetite seems to be not enough Qi nor not enough heat to digest food( more heat more appetite ). But we should also look into her foods and diets if she restricts herself from all spices or tasty foods, then it is the food itself... If Qi is deficiency, why do we have Sto Qi reverses and vomiting? If Qi is so deficiency, there is not enough force to throw up or throw out of food, then no vomiting. There must be a stagnation or a disharmony when Qi is still full....... She is a warm, gentle person, and spiritually oriented. And really optimistic. Does this appear to me she still have full of energy????? Yes, indeed! I think in this case, the patient has had several severe emotional problems which has brought all diseases to her. But she is lucky, for her constitution is strong ( her gene, her prenatal constitution ). Because she has been strong and has had positive attitudes which defeated the Liver problem, heart problem and Lung problem..... To treat this case, I would ask her to forget all the negative incidents in the past, look forward and move on. To forget the past is to keep herself busy, or being active, or find something to do to help others. If she can give love which means to help someone without condition, she will be happy ( happy, the heart, the Fire element, only the Fire can counteract the Water, the Kidney ). Then, render some treatments such as harmonize the Kidney and the Stomach, not the heart... S36 ( left is yang for ascending; Right, yin for descending ), Right point is used to descending...... K3 ( left for ascending, Right for descending ), Right point is used to descend the floating Qi, bring it back into the Kid....... THese two points can be used to harmonize the Ki-Sto. Herbal formulas can be used Shen Qi Wan ( tonify Ki Yang ), and Liu Wei Di Huang ( tonify Yin ), 20 pills in the morning, and 20 pills in the evening- Remember, add a little salt to water.................. I choose these two formulas because there is yin and yang within the kidneys. If I harmonize Yin and Yang, Qi and Blood will be harmonized automatically. I do not choose the Midjiao harmonizer as Ping Wei San or any other formulas for the midjiao because the root of all illnesses is, in this case, the KIDNEYs. I hope this will help. Nam Nguyen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 12, 2008 Report Share Posted December 12, 2008 Dear Dr Nguyen, I appreciate you looking closely at this case, and the details of your analysis. Makes plenty of sense to me. I will give her those prescriptions, enough for two weeks so I can see how they affect her. I will use the two pts. -R/S st36 and k3. Since we are trying to descend the floating qi, and harmonize the channels, can I also ask; .what would be your method of needle insertion here, and does it relate to ordinary tonify/reduce/even methods of needle technique? Thank you. Fran --- On Thu, 12/11/08, dr_namnguyen58 <dr_namnguyen58 wrote: dr_namnguyen58 <dr_namnguyen58 Re: 8 Extra, black tongue, pls help Chinese Medicine Thursday, December 11, 2008, 1:36 AM Dear friend, I looked into symptoms, there is infrequent vomiting, and little appetite. Let's look into this : infrequent vomiting is a Stomach Qi not descending, or we can say its Qi rebels. Little appetite seems to be not enough Qi nor not enough heat to digest food( more heat more appetite ). But we should also look into her foods and diets if she restricts herself from all spices or tasty foods, then it is the food itself... If Qi is deficiency, why do we have Sto Qi reverses and vomiting? If Qi is so deficiency, there is not enough force to throw up or throw out of food, then no vomiting. There must be a stagnation or a disharmony when Qi is still full....... She is a warm, gentle person, and spiritually oriented. And really optimistic. Does this appear to me she still have full of energy????? Yes, indeed! I think in this case, the patient has had several severe emotional problems which has brought all diseases to her. But she is lucky, for her constitution is strong ( her gene, her prenatal constitution ). Because she has been strong and has had positive attitudes which defeated the Liver problem, heart problem and Lung problem..... To treat this case, I would ask her to forget all the negative incidents in the past, look forward and move on. To forget the past is to keep herself busy, or being active, or find something to do to help others. If she can give love which means to help someone without condition, she will be happy ( happy, the heart, the Fire element, only the Fire can counteract the Water, the Kidney ). Then, render some treatments such as harmonize the Kidney and the Stomach, not the heart... S36 ( left is yang for ascending; Right, yin for descending ), Right point is used to descending.. .... K3 ( left for ascending, Right for descending ), Right point is used to descend the floating Qi, bring it back into the Kid....... THese two points can be used to harmonize the Ki-Sto. Herbal formulas can be used Shen Qi Wan ( tonify Ki Yang ), and Liu Wei Di Huang ( tonify Yin ), 20 pills in the morning, and 20 pills in the evening- Remember, add a little salt to water....... ......... .. I choose these two formulas because there is yin and yang within the kidneys. If I harmonize Yin and Yang, Qi and Blood will be harmonized automatically. I do not choose the Midjiao harmonizer as Ping Wei San or any other formulas for the midjiao because the root of all illnesses is, in this case, the KIDNEYs. I hope this will help. Nam Nguyen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 13, 2008 Report Share Posted December 13, 2008 Dear Fran, Based on Chinese philosophy or , the left is yang and go upward, right is yin and go downward. If we follow the flow, it is a tonifying method, reverse is a sedating method. It does not matter which side the left or right, the circular ( clockwise ) is the rhythm of time...... Clockwise is tonifying, counterclockwise is sedating......... Another way, for tonifying insert a needle slowly from superficial, thrusting up and down 6 -7 times then stop, then insert deeper, hold the needle very tight and release it. This step can be repeated several times as wish, as long as the Qi arrives, then needle can be felt tighter, remove the needle slowly. Sto Qi is disharmonized and flowing upward, must be brought downward. Choose the left point S36 and stimulate following the clockwise is wrong, it may get worse by going up. But it can be chosen with the needle downward, this means trying to stop the traffic flow with bumpspeeds. If we choose the right S36, following the clockwise, we are directing the Qi descending with force. It can be interpreted that, " Hey, go this way ! " . A point can be used to treat several diseases or illnesses. We must understand it to use it efficiently and proficiently. We do not need so many points. Each point will perform each task. If we do not how to command acupuncture points, they will not follow our orders, and there will be no result. REMEMBER : if pulses are strong or full and needling bring no instant results, we do not know what we are doing..... A point can be chosen to treat several symptoms by lifting it up and angle it in different directions. This means why a point can play several roles, but we have to choose a proper role for its performance....... We, acupuncturists, should understand them and play with them with care. Thanks for reading, Nam Nguyen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 13, 2008 Report Share Posted December 13, 2008 Nam, You're right about the left and right ST 36... ST 36 can lift Qi or descend Qi... If you cross-check with the patient's Ren 12 you can tell which side works best. Left rises on the the east and descends on the west, when facing south. K On Fri, Dec 12, 2008 at 9:46 PM, dr_namnguyen58 <dr_namnguyen58wrote: > Dear Fran, > Based on Chinese philosophy or , the left is yang > and go upward, right is yin and go downward. If we follow the flow, it > is a tonifying method, reverse is a sedating method. > It does not matter which side the left or right, the circular ( > clockwise ) is the rhythm of time...... Clockwise is tonifying, > counterclockwise is sedating......... Another way, for tonifying > insert a needle slowly from superficial, thrusting up and down 6 -7 > times then stop, then insert deeper, hold the needle very tight and > release it. This step can be repeated several times as wish, as long > as the Qi arrives, then needle can be felt tighter, remove the needle > slowly. > Sto Qi is disharmonized and flowing upward, must be brought > downward. Choose the left point S36 and stimulate following the > clockwise is wrong, it may get worse by going up. But it can be chosen > with the needle downward, this means trying to stop the traffic flow > with bumpspeeds. If we choose the right S36, following the clockwise, > we are directing the Qi descending with force. It can be interpreted > that, " Hey, go this way ! " . > A point can be used to treat several diseases or illnesses. We must > understand it to use it efficiently and proficiently. We do not need > so many points. Each point will perform each task. If we do not how to > command acupuncture points, they will not follow our orders, and there > will be no result. > REMEMBER : if pulses are strong or full and needling bring no > instant results, we do not know what we are doing..... A point can be > chosen to treat several symptoms by lifting it up and angle it in > different directions. This means why a point can play several roles, > but we have to choose a proper role for its performance....... We, > acupuncturists, should understand them and play with them with care. > > Thanks for reading, > Nam Nguyen > > > -- aka Mu bong Lim Father of Bhakti The Four Reliances: Do not rely upon the individual, but rely upon the teaching. As far as teachings go, do not rely upon the words alone, but rely upon the meaning that underlies them. Regarding the meaning, do not rely upon the provisional meaning alone, but rely upon the definitive meaning. And regarding the definitive meaning, do not rely upon ordinary consciousness, but rely upon wisdom awareness. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 14, 2008 Report Share Posted December 14, 2008 Fantastic, Dr. Nam, really really good. You hit the nail (needle) right on the head. Thanks. Good qi starts with me. Steering it. With a few words you say a lot. --- On Sat, 12/13/08, dr_namnguyen58 <dr_namnguyen58 wrote: dr_namnguyen58 <dr_namnguyen58 Re: 8 Extra, black tongue, pls help Chinese Medicine Saturday, December 13, 2008, 12:46 AM Dear Fran, Based on Chinese philosophy or , the left is yang and go upward, right is yin and go downward. If we follow the flow, it is a tonifying method, reverse is a sedating method. It does not matter which side the left or right, the circular ( clockwise ) is the rhythm of time...... Clockwise is tonifying, counterclockwise is sedating.... ..... Another way, for tonifying insert a needle slowly from superficial, thrusting up and down 6 -7 times then stop, then insert deeper, hold the needle very tight and release it. This step can be repeated several times as wish, as long as the Qi arrives, then needle can be felt tighter, remove the needle slowly. Sto Qi is disharmonized and flowing upward, must be brought downward. Choose the left point S36 and stimulate following the clockwise is wrong, it may get worse by going up. But it can be chosen with the needle downward, this means trying to stop the traffic flow with bumpspeeds. If we choose the right S36, following the clockwise, we are directing the Qi descending with force. It can be interpreted that, " Hey, go this way ! " . A point can be used to treat several diseases or illnesses. We must understand it to use it efficiently and proficiently. We do not need so many points. Each point will perform each task. If we do not how to command acupuncture points, they will not follow our orders, and there will be no result. REMEMBER : if pulses are strong or full and needling bring no instant results, we do not know what we are doing..... A point can be chosen to treat several symptoms by lifting it up and angle it in different directions. This means why a point can play several roles, but we have to choose a proper role for its performance. ...... We, acupuncturists, should understand them and play with them with care. Thanks for reading, Nam Nguyen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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