Guest guest Posted December 9, 2008 Report Share Posted December 9, 2008 Here's a case of a 31 y.o. male with a case of digestive disorders that have gotten progressively worse since 1984. Condition got much worse in '03. Since then px has greatly restricted diet, eating only vegetables, as eating any fat/oils or protein makes him worse. Px has seen Western specialists and all reports are negative. It's possible that he has Marfan's because he has at one time or another displayed positive signs, e.g., irregular heartbeat, convex chest, scoliosis, and stretch marks on an otherwise very tall and slender frame. Before coming to me, he had seen an acupuncturist for 18 months with little to no benefit. Px has toyed with taking different herbals on his own. To his mind, he suffers from a congested liver and gallbladder, which makes it v. difficult to digest food. He experienced a miracle for perhaps two weeks about 6-8 months ago, when he took a self-prescribed dose of senna. Taking it a second time made his condition " much worse. " Much worse is diarrhea gas and bloating with slight nausea. He also feels this way whenever he takes any liver herbs, e.g., milk thistle even yin chen hao. Px has a melancholic air. He also reports excessive hair loss. He also reports that the condition worsens with stress. At our first session his pulses appeared wiry on left and weak/deep slow. Tongue had thin coat, red with central crack. My tx has been liver over acting on spleen, with underlying kidney deficiency. Here's what I wrote on 30 Oct: 9 g. of sha-ren, mu-xiang, zhi-shi, xiang-fu, jue ming zi, bai shao, bai zhu, shou-wu, ban xia, dang-gui, 12g. da-huang, chai hu, yu yin, 3 g. huang lian. Px noticed " die-off " effect (some mental fogginess) and felt it was too much of a laxative. 7 Nov 9 g. xiang-fu, da-huang, shou-wu, bai zhu, mu xiang, huang qi, 12 yu jin, chai hu, 6 sha ren, ban xia, chuan jiao, 3 huang lian Px had no opinion about formula, maybe leaning toward to mildly positive, though he ate something with egg and his sx reappeared. 21 Nov 12 Tai zi shen; 9 chai hu, yu jin, ban xia; 6 yen hu suo, yin chen hao, bai zhu, hou pu, mu xiang Here's Px response, " The latest bag of herbs had a negative effect. I made the first batch of tea while in Florida for Thanksgiving. Like many liver-tonic herbs I've tried it shut me down digestively. By that I mean that after starting it, I felt food wasn't moving through my stomach very quickly and my appetite was reduced. Bowel movements quickly showed evidence of the herbs at work (reduced quantity but green crystal shades) but by the third day of taking the tea my bowel movements stopped. I didn't make the second batch herbs. Two days later I was very bloated and had diarrhea that night and slight nausea. " I think that what made him respond as he did was yin chen, possibly the yen hu suo which I added to move blood in middle jiao. Yin chen hao was added as it is supposed to be a jolly good herb for def/ex liv conditions. This is why I have been using Yu Jin and I thought the combined effects would be best. I was also using da huang for these purposes. Thoughts please. y.c. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 10, 2008 Report Share Posted December 10, 2008 I hope you don¡¦t mind I am being ¡¥critical¡¦ upon your case. In Jin Gui Yao Lue, the whole chapter 10 discussing abdominal fullness and digestive issues. You may find some principle treatments there that may shed some lights upon your case. As the medicinals in the formula reflects your treatment methods, the following are my opinions. 1 The first formula: Medicinals used to promote defecation are too bitter and cold that causes damages to the right qi, resulting in <too much of a laxative>. As the pathomechanism of your case is spleen qi deficiency; stomach yin deficiency, with binding depression of liver qi, medicinals such as da huang (rhubarb), huang lian (coptis) are too bitter and cold that damages to yang qi; xiang fu(cyperus) and dang gui (tangkuei) are acrid and warm that damage to yin. They exacerbate the existing condition of ¡¥dual deficiency of qi and yin¡¦. 2 The second formula When you add huang qi (astragulus) and cease to use jue ming zi (fetid cassia) and zhi zi (gardenia), more tonifying action and less draining action makes the formula more acceptable to the patient; he is <leaning toward to mildly positive>. 3 The third formula Hou pu (magnolia bark) and yin chen hao (capillaries) should be used here. The former is a strong dampness-transforming medicinal that tends to dry up yin; the latter is dampness-percolating medicinal that also damages to yin. Stomach yin deficiency is manifested by absence of appetite <my appetite was reduced> and constipation results <by the third day of taking the tea my bowel movements stopped>. I think you are on the right track except that you leave out some treatment principles. You should also need to focus more on the selection of medicinals. Thank you for your time sharing your case with us. My 2 cents, SUNG, Yuk-ming Phd (Chengdu U TCM), BA (Houston), L Ac & CMP (Hong Kong) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 11, 2008 Report Share Posted December 11, 2008 Thanks for response. I spent several days with Jin Gui before writing a formula. I'll go back to chpt 10. I don't quite understand why dang gui would damage yin, after all it's a blood tonic. Blood is an aspect of yin. If you'll note, even when using drying herbs, I tried to offset with plenty of tonifying herbs, thus dang gui, bai zhu, tai zi shen. It seems that moving liver qi while tonifying yin is in order. Sounds like Yi Guan Jian & #65288; & #19968; & #36143; & #29006; & #65289;off the top of my head, but unsure how this would address indigestion of fats and other gastric complaints. cheers, y.c. Chinese Medicine , " sxm2649 " <sxm2649 wrote: > > I hope you don¡¦t mind I am being ¡¥critical¡¦ upon your case. In Jin > Gui Yao Lue, the whole chapter 10 discussing abdominal fullness and > digestive issues. You may find some principle treatments there that > may shed some lights upon your case. As the medicinals in the formula > reflects your treatment methods, the following are my opinions. > > 1 The first formula: > Medicinals used to promote defecation are too bitter and cold that > causes damages to the right qi, resulting in <too much of a > laxative>. As the pathomechanism of your case is spleen qi > deficiency; stomach yin deficiency, with binding depression of liver > qi, medicinals such as da huang (rhubarb), huang lian (coptis) are > too bitter and cold that damages to yang qi; xiang fu(cyperus) and > dang gui (tangkuei) are acrid and warm that damage to yin. They > exacerbate the existing condition of ¡¥dual deficiency of qi and > yin¡¦. > > 2 The second formula > When you add huang qi (astragulus) and cease to use jue ming zi > (fetid cassia) and zhi zi (gardenia), more tonifying action and less > draining action makes the formula more acceptable to the patient; he > is <leaning toward to mildly positive>. > > 3 The third formula > Hou pu (magnolia bark) and yin chen hao (capillaries) should be used > here. The former is a strong dampness-transforming medicinal that > tends to dry up yin; the latter is dampness-percolating medicinal > that also damages to yin. Stomach yin deficiency is manifested by > absence of appetite <my appetite was reduced> and constipation > results <by the third day of taking the tea my bowel movements > stopped>. > > I think you are on the right track except that you leave out some > treatment principles. You should also need to focus more on the > selection of medicinals. > > Thank you for your time sharing your case with us. > > My 2 cents, > > SUNG, Yuk-ming > Phd (Chengdu U TCM), BA (Houston), L Ac & CMP (Hong Kong) > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 12, 2008 Report Share Posted December 12, 2008 y.c. & all, 1 <<<I don't quite understand why dang gui would damage yin, after all it's a blood tonic. Blood is an aspect of yin>>> Although dang gui can tonify/nourish the blood, it is acrid (dry) and warm in nature; it will dry up the yin in one way or the other. Your patient is skinny and has had digestive issue for long time. We should avoid/be cautious to prescibe herbs with drying nature. There are differences between yin and the blood. The pathomechanism of your patient is yin deficiency, not blood deficiency. Therefore, the prescription is better off without it. 2 <<<even when using drying herbs, I tried to offset with plenty of tonifying herbs, thus dang gui, bai zhu, tai zi shen.>>> The medicinal action of tai zi shen is really very mild, you need something stronger to see results. 3 <<<seems that moving liver qi while tonifying yin is in order. Sounds like Yi Guan Jian & #65288; & #19968; & #36143; & #29006; & #65289;off the top of my head, but unsure how this would address indigestion of fats and other gastric complaints>>>>> You did address the liver qi stagnation issue and the liver herbs used are fine. 4 <<<Hou pu (magnolia bark) and yin chen hao (capillaries) should be used>>> My negligence. They should 'NOT' be used. 5 <<<I spent several days with Jin Gui before writing > a formula>>> I am so glad to hear that you are also interested in Jin Gui. Jin Gui is my major in my graduate study and I have finished writing a textbook of Jin Gui that is user-friendly. (Unfortunately, my editor is still working upon it). There is a gap between asquisition of knowledge and its application. It will be much productive with proper guidance. If you have any questions about the book, you are welcome to email me for further discussions. Chinese medicine is all about clinical efficacy. I have offered prescriptions for complicated cases here but very few members returning feedback. I am working as hard as any of you serious listed members here to perfect my clinical skills, if not harder. Please let me know my insufficiencies as I will never know until I am told. I am grateful for this forum and contributions of the listed members (absolute majority) here. SUNG, Yuk-ming Phd (Chengdu U TCM), BA (Houston), L Ac & CMP (Hong Kong) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 12, 2008 Report Share Posted December 12, 2008 Hi YukMing: " Chinese medicine is all about clinical efficacy. I have offered prescriptions for complicated cases here but very few members returning feedback. I am working as hard as any of you serious listed members here to perfect my clinical skills, if not harder. Please let me know my insufficiencies as I will never know until I am told. I am grateful for this forum and contributions of the listed members (absolute majority) here. " My guess and feeling is that a lot of people here do a lot of " hard-reading " on everyone's posts. I doubt that anyone's posts are unappreciated or glossed over. Hugo ________________________________ Hugo Ramiro http://middlemedicine.wordpress.com http://www.chinesemedicaltherapies.org ________________________________ Chinese medicine is all about clinical efficacy. I have offered prescriptions for complicated cases here but very few members returning feedback. I am working as hard as any of you serious listed members here to perfect my clinical skills, if not harder. Please let me know my insufficiencies as I will never know until I am told. I am grateful for this forum and contributions of the listed members (absolute majority) here. SUNG, Yuk-ming Phd (Chengdu U TCM), BA (Houston), L Ac & CMP (Hong Kong) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 12, 2008 Report Share Posted December 12, 2008 Chinese Medicine , " ycmgh " <ycmgh wrote: > .... " I don't quite understand why dang gui would damage yin, after all it's a blood tonic. Blood is an aspect of yin. " Thanks for making me get up and review the herb; one of the benefits of being in this group Dang gui is also acrid/pungent - dispersing rather than consolidating. The herb is also warm. Bensky states 'contraindicated for yin deficiency with heat signs.' In this situation, it helps me to think of blood and and yin relative to each other... blood is more yang than yin. I'm now remembering to think of dang gui as an ideal herb if Blood deficiency is contributing to Blood stagnation... perfect for people [women in particular] who might have the combination of Liv qi stag, Liv Blood xu, with some Sp qi xu and ... Blood xu. Margi Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 12, 2008 Report Share Posted December 12, 2008 SUNG, Thank you for your insight, your comments about dang gui are intriguing. Hence, can you provide a reference that discusses that dang gui damages the yin, I want to read the context in which this is said (Chinese is okay). IMO, dang gui does not damage yin, I have not seen this clinically nor have ever read this. 1) Consulting some materia medicas one will see that Dang gui is actually indicated for things like " Kidney yin deficiency leading to flooding and spotting & vaginal discharge. " In another source it has the function of tonifying the blood, generating the blood, enriching the yin and moistening dryness. " There is reference after reference like this. 2) I also do not think you can say acrid = drying. Acrid in the Nei Jing is said to scatter (and move.) Bitter is the flavor that is said to dry and drain. But dang gui is also sweet. Hence sweet and acrid go together and one should not think of these flavors in isolation. Sweet of course relaxes, moistens, harmonizes, and tonifies. Consequently dang gui nourishes the yang aspect of the blood and is used in many yin For example dang gui di huang yin (tonify Kidney and Liver yin) and yi guan jian. One can not just give cool sticky herbs when someone is yin deficient. Dang gui has its place. That is my point of view, I would like to hear other's opinions. -Jason Chinese Medicine Chinese Medicine On Behalf Of sxm2649 Thursday, December 11, 2008 9:35 PM Chinese Medicine Re: LV/GB Digestive Complaint Case y.c. & all, 1 <<<I don't quite understand why dang gui would damage yin, after all it's a blood tonic. Blood is an aspect of yin>>> Although dang gui can tonify/nourish the blood, it is acrid (dry) and warm in nature; it will dry up the yin in one way or the other. Your patient is skinny and has had digestive issue for long time. We should avoid/be cautious to prescibe herbs with drying nature. There are differences between yin and the blood. The pathomechanism of your patient is yin deficiency, not blood deficiency. Therefore, the prescription is better off without it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 12, 2008 Report Share Posted December 12, 2008 Hi Jason, I agree with you. Dang gui, according to the Shen nong ben cao jing (which is an authoritative text written within a century from the Shang han za bing lun = Shang han lun + Jin gui yao lue) states that Dang gui is " sweet " and warm. Its primary function listed is to moisten the intestines. The " sweet " taste tonifies the earth element and reduces the fire element, according to the Tang ye jing's flavor therapeutics (one can consult Arnaud Versluys for more information on this): The forum is at www.arnaudversluys.com Sweet mainly Moderates, as it moderates the wood and fire elements. Dang gui is a moderating herb. Pungent actually moistens water, tonifies wood and reduces metal. Bitter is the flavor that dries and reduces earth. Question: Why is Dang gui paired with little sister Bai shao so often? K. On Fri, Dec 12, 2008 at 5:52 AM, < > wrote: > SUNG, > > Thank you for your insight, your comments about dang gui are intriguing. > Hence, can you provide a reference that discusses that dang gui damages the > yin, I want to read the context in which this is said (Chinese is okay). > IMO, dang gui does not damage yin, I have not seen this clinically nor have > ever read this. > > 1) Consulting some materia medicas one will see that Dang gui is > actually indicated for things like " Kidney yin deficiency leading to > flooding and spotting & vaginal discharge. " In another source it has the > function of tonifying the blood, generating the blood, enriching the yin > and > moistening dryness. " There is reference after reference like this. > > 2) I also do not think you can say acrid = drying. Acrid in the Nei > Jing is said to scatter (and move.) Bitter is the flavor that is said to > dry > and drain. But dang gui is also sweet. Hence sweet and acrid go together > and > one should not think of these flavors in isolation. Sweet of course > relaxes, > moistens, harmonizes, and tonifies. Consequently dang gui nourishes the > yang > aspect of the blood and is used in many yin > > For example dang gui di huang yin (tonify Kidney and Liver yin) and yi guan > jian. One can not just give cool sticky herbs when someone is yin > deficient. > Dang gui has its place. > > That is my point of view, I would like to hear other's opinions. > > -Jason > > Chinese Medicine <Chinese Medicine%40yaho\ ogroups.com> > [Chinese Medicine <Traditional_Chinese_Medicin\ e%40>] > On Behalf Of sxm2649 > Thursday, December 11, 2008 9:35 PM > To: Chinese Medicine <Chinese Medicine%40yaho\ ogroups.com> > Re: LV/GB Digestive Complaint Case > > > y.c. & all, > > 1 <<<I don't quite understand why dang gui would damage yin, after > all it's a blood tonic. Blood is an aspect of yin>>> > > Although dang gui can tonify/nourish the blood, it is acrid (dry) and > warm in nature; it will dry up the yin in one way or the other. Your > patient is skinny and has had digestive issue for long time. We > should avoid/be cautious to prescibe herbs with drying nature. > > There are differences between yin and the blood. The pathomechanism > of your patient is yin deficiency, not blood deficiency. Therefore, > the prescription is better off without it. > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 12, 2008 Report Share Posted December 12, 2008 Dr. Sung, I'm curious, you wrote that Dang gui is " pungent " ... Which source are you using for that information? As you are a Jin Gui expert, are you using Shen nong ben cao jing writings of herbs, Tang ye jing or contemporary writings? I " m in an excellent course with Arnaud Versluys and one thing that he told us from the beginning is that we need to think like Zhang Zhong Jing in order to realize those late Han dynasty writings. That correlates to using their understanding of flavor therapeutics and actions/indications for the herbs used at that time period. Thanks, K. On Fri, Dec 12, 2008 at 7:18 AM, <johnkokko wrote: > Hi Jason, > I agree with you. Dang gui, according to the Shen nong ben cao jing (which > is an authoritative text written within a century from the Shang han za bing > lun = Shang han lun + Jin gui yao lue) states that Dang gui is " sweet " and > warm. > Its primary function listed is to moisten the intestines. > > The " sweet " taste tonifies the earth element and reduces the fire element, > according to the Tang ye jing's flavor therapeutics (one can consult Arnaud > Versluys for more information on this): The forum is at > www.arnaudversluys.com > > Sweet mainly Moderates, as it moderates the wood and fire elements. Dang > gui is a moderating herb. > Pungent actually moistens water, tonifies wood and reduces metal. > Bitter is the flavor that dries and reduces earth. > > Question: Why is Dang gui paired with little sister Bai shao so often? > > K. > On Fri, Dec 12, 2008 at 5:52 AM, < > > wrote: > >> SUNG, >> >> Thank you for your insight, your comments about dang gui are intriguing. >> Hence, can you provide a reference that discusses that dang gui damages >> the >> yin, I want to read the context in which this is said (Chinese is okay). >> IMO, dang gui does not damage yin, I have not seen this clinically nor >> have >> ever read this. >> >> 1) Consulting some materia medicas one will see that Dang gui is >> actually indicated for things like " Kidney yin deficiency leading to >> flooding and spotting & vaginal discharge. " In another source it has the >> function of tonifying the blood, generating the blood, enriching the yin >> and >> moistening dryness. " There is reference after reference like this. >> >> 2) I also do not think you can say acrid = drying. Acrid in the Nei >> Jing is said to scatter (and move.) Bitter is the flavor that is said to >> dry >> and drain. But dang gui is also sweet. Hence sweet and acrid go together >> and >> one should not think of these flavors in isolation. Sweet of course >> relaxes, >> moistens, harmonizes, and tonifies. Consequently dang gui nourishes the >> yang >> aspect of the blood and is used in many yin >> >> For example dang gui di huang yin (tonify Kidney and Liver yin) and yi >> guan >> jian. One can not just give cool sticky herbs when someone is yin >> deficient. >> Dang gui has its place. >> >> That is my point of view, I would like to hear other's opinions. >> >> -Jason >> >> Chinese Medicine <Chinese Medicine%40yaho\ ogroups.com> >> [Chinese Medicine <Traditional_Chinese_Medicin\ e%40>] >> On Behalf Of sxm2649 >> Thursday, December 11, 2008 9:35 PM >> To: Chinese Medicine <Chinese Medicine%40yaho\ ogroups.com> >> Re: LV/GB Digestive Complaint Case >> >> >> y.c. & all, >> >> 1 <<<I don't quite understand why dang gui would damage yin, after >> all it's a blood tonic. Blood is an aspect of yin>>> >> >> Although dang gui can tonify/nourish the blood, it is acrid (dry) and >> warm in nature; it will dry up the yin in one way or the other. Your >> patient is skinny and has had digestive issue for long time. We >> should avoid/be cautious to prescibe herbs with drying nature. >> >> There are differences between yin and the blood. The pathomechanism >> of your patient is yin deficiency, not blood deficiency. Therefore, >> the prescription is better off without it. >> >> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 12, 2008 Report Share Posted December 12, 2008 I agree with your opinion, Jason. I've never seen any indication, either in ben cao or practically in prescription formulation, that dang gui damages yin qi. On Dec 12, 2008, at 5:52 AM, wrote: > SUNG, > > Thank you for your insight, your comments about dang gui are > intriguing. > Hence, can you provide a reference that discusses that dang gui > damages the > yin, I want to read the context in which this is said (Chinese is > okay). > IMO, dang gui does not damage yin, I have not seen this clinically > nor have > ever read this. > > 1) Consulting some materia medicas one will see that Dang gui is > actually indicated for things like " Kidney yin deficiency leading to > flooding and spotting & vaginal discharge. " In another source it has > the > function of tonifying the blood, generating the blood, enriching the > yin and > moistening dryness. " There is reference after reference like this. > > 2) I also do not think you can say acrid = drying. Acrid in the Nei > Jing is said to scatter (and move.) Bitter is the flavor that is > said to dry > and drain. But dang gui is also sweet. Hence sweet and acrid go > together and > one should not think of these flavors in isolation. Sweet of course > relaxes, > moistens, harmonizes, and tonifies. Consequently dang gui nourishes > the yang > aspect of the blood and is used in many yin > > For example dang gui di huang yin (tonify Kidney and Liver yin) and > yi guan > jian. One can not just give cool sticky herbs when someone is yin > deficient. > Dang gui has its place. > > That is my point of view, I would like to hear other's opinions. > > -Jason > > Chinese Medicine > Chinese Medicine On Behalf Of > sxm2649 > Thursday, December 11, 2008 9:35 PM > Chinese Medicine > Re: LV/GB Digestive Complaint Case > > y.c. & all, > > 1 <<<I don't quite understand why dang gui would damage yin, after > all it's a blood tonic. Blood is an aspect of yin>>> > > Although dang gui can tonify/nourish the blood, it is acrid (dry) and > warm in nature; it will dry up the yin in one way or the other. Your > patient is skinny and has had digestive issue for long time. We > should avoid/be cautious to prescibe herbs with drying nature. > > There are differences between yin and the blood. The pathomechanism > of your patient is yin deficiency, not blood deficiency. Therefore, > the prescription is better off without it. > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 12, 2008 Report Share Posted December 12, 2008 Hi Z'ev and Jason: Dang Gui is slightly bitter. Hugo ________________________________ Hugo Ramiro http://middlemedicine.wordpress.com http://www.chinesemedicaltherapies.org ________________________________ Chinese Medicine Friday, 12 December, 2008 8:52:05 RE: Re: LV/GB Digestive Complaint Case SUNG, Thank you for your insight, your comments about dang gui are intriguing. Hence, can you provide a reference that discusses that dang gui damages the yin, I want to read the context in which this is said (Chinese is okay). IMO, dang gui does not damage yin, I have not seen this clinically nor have ever read this. 1) Consulting some materia medicas one will see that Dang gui is actually indicated for things like " Kidney yin deficiency leading to flooding and spotting & vaginal discharge. " In another source it has the function of tonifying the blood, generating the blood, enriching the yin and moistening dryness. " There is reference after reference like this. 2) I also do not think you can say acrid = drying. Acrid in the Nei Jing is said to scatter (and move.) Bitter is the flavor that is said to dry and drain. But dang gui is also sweet. Hence sweet and acrid go together and one should not think of these flavors in isolation. Sweet of course relaxes, moistens, harmonizes, and tonifies. Consequently dang gui nourishes the yang aspect of the blood and is used in many yin For example dang gui di huang yin (tonify Kidney and Liver yin) and yi guan jian. One can not just give cool sticky herbs when someone is yin deficient. Dang gui has its place. That is my point of view, I would like to hear other's opinions. -Jason Traditional_ Chinese_Medicine [Traditional_ Chinese_Medicine ] On Behalf Of sxm2649 Thursday, December 11, 2008 9:35 PM Re: LV/GB Digestive Complaint Case y..c. & all, 1 <<<I don't quite understand why dang gui would damage yin, after all it's a blood tonic. Blood is an aspect of yin>>> Although dang gui can tonify/nourish the blood, it is acrid (dry) and warm in nature; it will dry up the yin in one way or the other. Your patient is skinny and has had digestive issue for long time. We should avoid/be cautious to prescibe herbs with drying nature. There are differences between yin and the blood. The pathomechanism of your patient is yin deficiency, not blood deficiency. Therefore, the prescription is better off without it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 12, 2008 Report Share Posted December 12, 2008 Hugo, What is your source for that? Do you mean it tastes slightly bitter to the tongue? K. On Fri, Dec 12, 2008 at 8:43 AM, Hugo Ramiro <subincor wrote: > Hi Z'ev and Jason: > > Dang Gui is slightly bitter. > > > Hugo > > ________________________________ > Hugo Ramiro > http://middlemedicine.wordpress.com > http://www.chinesemedicaltherapies.org > > ________________________________ > <<%40Chinese Medicine> > > > To: Chinese Medicine <Chinese Medicine%40yaho\ ogroups.com> > Friday, 12 December, 2008 8:52:05 > RE: Re: LV/GB Digestive Complaint Case > > > SUNG, > > Thank you for your insight, your comments about dang gui are intriguing. > Hence, can you provide a reference that discusses that dang gui damages the > yin, I want to read the context in which this is said (Chinese is okay). > IMO, dang gui does not damage yin, I have not seen this clinically nor have > ever read this. > > 1) Consulting some materia medicas one will see that Dang gui is > actually indicated for things like " Kidney yin deficiency leading to > flooding and spotting & vaginal discharge. " In another source it has the > function of tonifying the blood, generating the blood, enriching the yin > and > moistening dryness. " There is reference after reference like this. > > 2) I also do not think you can say acrid = drying. Acrid in the Nei > Jing is said to scatter (and move.) Bitter is the flavor that is said to > dry > and drain. But dang gui is also sweet. Hence sweet and acrid go together > and > one should not think of these flavors in isolation. Sweet of course > relaxes, > moistens, harmonizes, and tonifies. Consequently dang gui nourishes the > yang > aspect of the blood and is used in many yin > > For example dang gui di huang yin (tonify Kidney and Liver yin) and yi guan > jian. One can not just give cool sticky herbs when someone is yin > deficient. > Dang gui has its place. > > That is my point of view, I would like to hear other's opinions. > > -Jason > > Traditional_ Chinese_Medicine > [Traditional_ Chinese_Medicine ] On Behalf Of > sxm2649 > Thursday, December 11, 2008 9:35 PM > > Re: LV/GB Digestive Complaint Case > > y..c. & all, > > 1 <<<I don't quite understand why dang gui would damage yin, after > all it's a blood tonic. Blood is an aspect of yin>>> > > Although dang gui can tonify/nourish the blood, it is acrid (dry) and > warm in nature; it will dry up the yin in one way or the other. Your > patient is skinny and has had digestive issue for long time. We > should avoid/be cautious to prescibe herbs with drying nature. > > There are differences between yin and the blood. The pathomechanism > of your patient is yin deficiency, not blood deficiency. Therefore, > the prescription is better off without it. > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 12, 2008 Report Share Posted December 12, 2008 Hi all: Ok, I should follow that up. I just took a break and was looking through some of my notes to find what I was remembering: a class many years ago where we discussed " conflicting " information about herb functions, and how sometimes an herb function is brought out strongly not only in combination with another herb, but in a particular formula only, or in a particular pattern presentation. Therefore Dan Gui Special Function (DGSF) is only valid in limited scenarios. I still can't find the notes, but here is some stuff I remember + some references. Most sources I have list Dang Gui as bitter or slightly bitter - why? The formula I remember as being central to our discussion is Su Zi Jiang Qi Tang used for cough and phlegm-cold (how does dang gui fit in there??). Source was Shen Nong Ben Cao Jing and Ben Cao Hui Ban. I believe there are other formulas where this special function is brought out, but we only discussed this formula in depth. Interestingly, Su Zi Jiang Qi Tang is listed in Lectures on the Use of Medicinals by Jiang Shu De, and Dang Gui is the herb that is listed but NOT discussed. The separate Dang Gui listing in said book contains detailed information on the common uses of the herb, no mention of bitter, acridity or drying. Dui Yao by Sionneau lists some of these special functions (mainly the downbearing of Qi). Formulas and Strategies by Bensky lists Su Zi Jiang Qi Tang and spends more time on Dang Gui than on any other listed ingredient despite the fact that it is only an assistant to the chief group of herbs. I should just copy the entry: The functions of the other assistant, Dang Gui, are complex. First, one of its ancient functions, which is rarely utilised today - treating the cough froma rebellious qi - is drawn upon in this formula. Second, this condition represents an acute aggravation of a chronic disorder. Chronic disorders often lead to deficiency or 'devitalisation' of the blood. This herb is therefore used to harmonise the functions of the blood, and is one reason why it is said to treat the 'qi of the blood'. This has the effect of conducting errant aspects of the body back to their respectivesources, and here has a positive influence on the qi-grasping function of the kidneys. Finally, this herb is used to prevent injury to the yin and qi from the acrid, dry properties of many of the other ingredients. Whew. That's 15 lines of text in the book, versus the two other heavyweights which received a mere 4 lines each. Anomalies often get extra explanations, or are ignored (as in Jiang Shu De's book). I personally feel my teacher's explanation is the most concise, which is that this formula used in this way, brings out a special function of dang gui which is to downbear qi, stop cough and tonify the blood without adding to the yin (the cold phlegm) - we were also told that we needed to use the whole Dang Gui for this function. Then again, this isn't a huge facet of clinical life, right? Thoughts? Hugo ________________________________ Hugo Ramiro http://middlemedicine.wordpress.com http://www.chinesemedicaltherapies.org ________________________________ Hugo Ramiro <subincor Chinese Medicine Friday, 12 December, 2008 11:43:57 Re: Re: LV/GB Digestive Complaint Case Hi Z'ev and Jason: Dang Gui is slightly bitter. Hugo ____________ _________ _________ __ Hugo Ramiro http://middlemedici ne.wordpress. com http://www.chinesem edicaltherapies. org ____________ _________ _________ __ <@chinesemed icinedoc. com> Friday, 12 December, 2008 8:52:05 RE: Re: LV/GB Digestive Complaint Case SUNG, Thank you for your insight, your comments about dang gui are intriguing. Hence, can you provide a reference that discusses that dang gui damages the yin, I want to read the context in which this is said (Chinese is okay). IMO, dang gui does not damage yin, I have not seen this clinically nor have ever read this. 1) Consulting some materia medicas one will see that Dang gui is actually indicated for things like " Kidney yin deficiency leading to flooding and spotting & vaginal discharge. " In another source it has the function of tonifying the blood, generating the blood, enriching the yin and moistening dryness. " There is reference after reference like this. 2) I also do not think you can say acrid = drying. Acrid in the Nei Jing is said to scatter (and move.) Bitter is the flavor that is said to dry and drain. But dang gui is also sweet. Hence sweet and acrid go together and one should not think of these flavors in isolation. Sweet of course relaxes, moistens, harmonizes, and tonifies. Consequently dang gui nourishes the yang aspect of the blood and is used in many yin For example dang gui di huang yin (tonify Kidney and Liver yin) and yi guan jian. One can not just give cool sticky herbs when someone is yin deficient. Dang gui has its place. That is my point of view, I would like to hear other's opinions. -Jason Traditional_ Chinese_Medicine [Traditional _ Chinese_Medicine ] On Behalf Of sxm2649 Thursday, December 11, 2008 9:35 PM Re: LV/GB Digestive Complaint Case y..c. & all, 1 <<<I don't quite understand why dang gui would damage yin, after all it's a blood tonic. Blood is an aspect of yin>>> Although dang gui can tonify/nourish the blood, it is acrid (dry) and warm in nature; it will dry up the yin in one way or the other. Your patient is skinny and has had digestive issue for long time. We should avoid/be cautious to prescibe herbs with drying nature. There are differences between yin and the blood. The pathomechanism of your patient is yin deficiency, not blood deficiency. Therefore, the prescription is better off without it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 12, 2008 Report Share Posted December 12, 2008 Hi Jason, one last question on your comment: When an herb is listed as being drying, that does not necessarily equate to it being damaging to yin qi, does it? Yin can be many things - if in the case of cold-phlegm, could it be that Dang Gui is warming and drying to the cold-phlegm yin qi, but supportive of the blood yin-qi? Framed another way, drying to the pathological yin qi but supportive of the righteous yin qi? If this is the case, then we would find " conflicting " reports that Dang Gui is both " drying " but supportive of yin qi. Does that make any sense? Hugo ________________________________ Hugo Ramiro http://middlemedicine.wordpress.com http://www.chinesemedicaltherapies.org ________________________________ Chinese Medicine Friday, 12 December, 2008 8:52:05 RE: Re: LV/GB Digestive Complaint Case SUNG, Thank you for your insight, your comments about dang gui are intriguing. Hence, can you provide a reference that discusses that dang gui damages the yin, I want to read the context in which this is said (Chinese is okay). IMO, dang gui does not damage yin, I have not seen this clinically nor have ever read this. 1) Consulting some materia medicas one will see that Dang gui is actually indicated for things like " Kidney yin deficiency leading to flooding and spotting & vaginal discharge. " In another source it has the function of tonifying the blood, generating the blood, enriching the yin and moistening dryness. " There is reference after reference like this. 2) I also do not think you can say acrid = drying. Acrid in the Nei Jing is said to scatter (and move.) Bitter is the flavor that is said to dry and drain. But dang gui is also sweet. Hence sweet and acrid go together and one should not think of these flavors in isolation. Sweet of course relaxes, moistens, harmonizes, and tonifies. Consequently dang gui nourishes the yang aspect of the blood and is used in many yin For example dang gui di huang yin (tonify Kidney and Liver yin) and yi guan jian. One can not just give cool sticky herbs when someone is yin deficient. Dang gui has its place. That is my point of view, I would like to hear other's opinions. -Jason Traditional_ Chinese_Medicine [Traditional_ Chinese_Medicine ] On Behalf Of sxm2649 Thursday, December 11, 2008 9:35 PM Re: LV/GB Digestive Complaint Case y.c. & all, 1 <<<I don't quite understand why dang gui would damage yin, after all it's a blood tonic. Blood is an aspect of yin>>> Although dang gui can tonify/nourish the blood, it is acrid (dry) and warm in nature; it will dry up the yin in one way or the other. Your patient is skinny and has had digestive issue for long time. We should avoid/be cautious to prescibe herbs with drying nature. There are differences between yin and the blood. The pathomechanism of your patient is yin deficiency, not blood deficiency. Therefore, the prescription is better off without it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 13, 2008 Report Share Posted December 13, 2008 Hugo, I am not really following you here. Where does it say that dang gui is drying? -Jason Chinese Medicine Chinese Medicine On Behalf Of Hugo Ramiro Friday, December 12, 2008 10:46 AM Chinese Medicine Re: Re: LV/GB Digestive Complaint Case Hi Jason, one last question on your comment: When an herb is listed as being drying, that does not necessarily equate to it being damaging to yin qi, does it? Yin can be many things - if in the case of cold-phlegm, could it be that Dang Gui is warming and drying to the cold-phlegm yin qi, but supportive of the blood yin-qi? Framed another way, drying to the pathological yin qi but supportive of the righteous yin qi? If this is the case, then we would find " conflicting " reports that Dang Gui is both " drying " but supportive of yin qi. Does that make any sense? Hugo ________________________________ Hugo Ramiro http://middlemedicine.wordpress.com http://www.chinesemedicaltherapies.org ________________________________ < <%40Chinese Medicine> > Chinese Medicine <Chinese Medicine%40> Friday, 12 December, 2008 8:52:05 RE: Re: LV/GB Digestive Complaint Case SUNG, Thank you for your insight, your comments about dang gui are intriguing. Hence, can you provide a reference that discusses that dang gui damages the yin, I want to read the context in which this is said (Chinese is okay). IMO, dang gui does not damage yin, I have not seen this clinically nor have ever read this. 1) Consulting some materia medicas one will see that Dang gui is actually indicated for things like " Kidney yin deficiency leading to flooding and spotting & vaginal discharge. " In another source it has the function of tonifying the blood, generating the blood, enriching the yin and moistening dryness. " There is reference after reference like this. 2) I also do not think you can say acrid = drying. Acrid in the Nei Jing is said to scatter (and move.) Bitter is the flavor that is said to dry and drain. But dang gui is also sweet. Hence sweet and acrid go together and one should not think of these flavors in isolation. Sweet of course relaxes, moistens, harmonizes, and tonifies. Consequently dang gui nourishes the yang aspect of the blood and is used in many yin For example dang gui di huang yin (tonify Kidney and Liver yin) and yi guan jian. One can not just give cool sticky herbs when someone is yin deficient. Dang gui has its place. That is my point of view, I would like to hear other's opinions. -Jason Traditional_ Chinese_Medicine [Traditional_ Chinese_Medicine ] On Behalf Of sxm2649 Thursday, December 11, 2008 9:35 PM Re: LV/GB Digestive Complaint Case y.c. & all, 1 <<<I don't quite understand why dang gui would damage yin, after all it's a blood tonic. Blood is an aspect of yin>>> Although dang gui can tonify/nourish the blood, it is acrid (dry) and warm in nature; it will dry up the yin in one way or the other. Your patient is skinny and has had digestive issue for long time. We should avoid/be cautious to prescibe herbs with drying nature. There are differences between yin and the blood. The pathomechanism of your patient is yin deficiency, not blood deficiency. Therefore, the prescription is better off without it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 13, 2008 Report Share Posted December 13, 2008 One is yin and one is yang, they complement and balance each other. -Jason Question: Why is Dang gui paired with little sister Bai shao so often? K. On Fri, Dec 12, 2008 at 5:52 AM, < <%40Chinese Medicine> > wrote: > SUNG, > > Thank you for your insight, your comments about dang gui are intriguing. > Hence, can you provide a reference that discusses that dang gui damages the > yin, I want to read the context in which this is said (Chinese is okay). > IMO, dang gui does not damage yin, I have not seen this clinically nor have > ever read this. > > 1) Consulting some materia medicas one will see that Dang gui is > actually indicated for things like " Kidney yin deficiency leading to > flooding and spotting & vaginal discharge. " In another source it has the > function of tonifying the blood, generating the blood, enriching the yin > and > moistening dryness. " There is reference after reference like this. > > 2) I also do not think you can say acrid = drying. Acrid in the Nei > Jing is said to scatter (and move.) Bitter is the flavor that is said to > dry > and drain. But dang gui is also sweet. Hence sweet and acrid go together > and > one should not think of these flavors in isolation. Sweet of course > relaxes, > moistens, harmonizes, and tonifies. Consequently dang gui nourishes the > yang > aspect of the blood and is used in many yin > > For example dang gui di huang yin (tonify Kidney and Liver yin) and yi guan > jian. One can not just give cool sticky herbs when someone is yin > deficient. > Dang gui has its place. > > That is my point of view, I would like to hear other's opinions. > > -Jason > > Chinese Medicine <Chinese Medicine%40> <Chinese Medicine%40> > [Chinese Medicine <Chinese Medicine%40> <Chinese Medicine%40>] > On Behalf Of sxm2649 > Thursday, December 11, 2008 9:35 PM > Chinese Medicine <Chinese Medicine%40> <Chinese Medicine%40> > Re: LV/GB Digestive Complaint Case > > > y.c. & all, > > 1 <<<I don't quite understand why dang gui would damage yin, after > all it's a blood tonic. Blood is an aspect of yin>>> > > Although dang gui can tonify/nourish the blood, it is acrid (dry) and > warm in nature; it will dry up the yin in one way or the other. Your > patient is skinny and has had digestive issue for long time. We > should avoid/be cautious to prescibe herbs with drying nature. > > There are differences between yin and the blood. The pathomechanism > of your patient is yin deficiency, not blood deficiency. Therefore, > the prescription is better off without it. > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 13, 2008 Report Share Posted December 13, 2008 BTW- Bensky has removed this line from the new MM. But the key here is " heat. " -Jason Chinese Medicine Chinese Medicine On Behalf Of margi.macdonald Bensky states 'contraindicated for yin deficiency with heat signs.' Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 13, 2008 Report Share Posted December 13, 2008 Hugo, I am not really following you here. Where does it say that dang gui is drying? -Jason Chinese Medicine Chinese Medicine On Behalf Of Hugo Ramiro Friday, December 12, 2008 10:46 AM Chinese Medicine Re: Re: LV/GB Digestive Complaint Case Hi Jason, one last question on your comment: When an herb is listed as being drying, that does not necessarily equate to it being damaging to yin qi, does it? Yin can be many things - if in the case of cold-phlegm, could it be that Dang Gui is warming and drying to the cold-phlegm yin qi, but supportive of the blood yin-qi? Framed another way, drying to the pathological yin qi but supportive of the righteous yin qi? If this is the case, then we would find " conflicting " reports that Dang Gui is both " drying " but supportive of yin qi. Does that make any sense? Hugo \ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 13, 2008 Report Share Posted December 13, 2008 One is yin and one is yang, they complement and balance each other. -Jason ---- Question: Why is Dang gui paired with little sister Bai shao so often? K. : 8.0.176 / Virus Database: 270.9.16/1841 - Release 12/12/2008 6:59 PM <http://maps./py/maps.py?Pyt=Tmap & addr=2600+30th+Street%2C+Suite+20 0 & csz=Boulder%2C+Co & country=us> 2600 30th Street, Suite 200 Boulder, Co 80301 <http://www.plaxo.com/signature?src=client_sig_212_1_simple_sig & lang=en> Want a signature like this? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 13, 2008 Report Share Posted December 13, 2008 Is " warming " the same as " drying " ? I'm not sure that a warm herb necessarily " dries " the yin. For instance, Shu di huang, Ren shen, Da zao and Yi tang are warmer than neutral according to 3rd ed Bensky/Stoger/Clavey. However, all of these can moisten as well. K. On Fri, Dec 12, 2008 at 1:07 AM, margi.macdonald <margi.macdonaldwrote: > --- In Chinese Medicine <Chinese Medicine%40yaho\ ogroups.com>, > " ycmgh " > <ycmgh wrote: > > > ... " I don't quite understand why dang gui would damage yin, after all > it's a blood tonic. Blood is an aspect of yin. " > > Thanks for making me get up and review the herb; one of the benefits of > being in this group > Dang gui is also acrid/pungent - dispersing rather than consolidating. > The herb is also warm. > Bensky states 'contraindicated for yin deficiency with heat signs.' > > In this situation, it helps me to think of blood and and yin relative > to each other... blood is more yang than yin. > I'm now remembering to think of dang gui as an ideal herb if Blood > deficiency is contributing to Blood stagnation... perfect for people > [women in particular] who might have the combination of Liv qi stag, > Liv Blood xu, with some Sp qi xu and ... Blood xu. > > Margi > > > -- aka Mu bong Lim Father of Bhakti The Four Reliances: Do not rely upon the individual, but rely upon the teaching. As far as teachings go, do not rely upon the words alone, but rely upon the meaning that underlies them. Regarding the meaning, do not rely upon the provisional meaning alone, but rely upon the definitive meaning. And regarding the definitive meaning, do not rely upon ordinary consciousness, but rely upon wisdom awareness. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 13, 2008 Report Share Posted December 13, 2008 Hi Jason: Jason: " I am not really following you here. Where does it say that dang gui is drying? " That's not really the point Jason. I am outlining a logical progression based on yin yang principles. It's be nice if I could get your opinion on the logic. Hugo ________________________________ Hugo Ramiro http://middlemedicine.wordpress.com http://www.chinesemedicaltherapies.org ________________________________ Chinese Medicine Saturday, 13 December, 2008 7:57:42 RE: Re: LV/GB Digestive Complaint Case Hugo, -Jason Traditional_ Chinese_Medicine [Traditional_ Chinese_Medicine ] On Behalf Of Hugo Ramiro Friday, December 12, 2008 10:46 AM Re: Re: LV/GB Digestive Complaint Case Hi Jason, one last question on your comment: When an herb is listed as being drying, that does not necessarily equate to it being damaging to yin qi, does it? Yin can be many things - if in the case of cold-phlegm, could it be that Dang Gui is warming and drying to the cold-phlegm yin qi, but supportive of the blood yin-qi? Framed another way, drying to the pathological yin qi but supportive of the righteous yin qi? If this is the case, then we would find " conflicting " reports that Dang Gui is both " drying " but supportive of yin qi. Does that make any sense? Hugo \ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 13, 2008 Report Share Posted December 13, 2008 Hi John: John: " What is your source for that? Do you mean it tastes slightly bitter to the tongue? " Many if not most sources I have list Dang Gui as being bitter, mildly bitter, or slightly bitter. As far as whether it is listed as being bitter because it is bitter to the tongue or whether it is listed as being bitter due to its supposed function, I don't know. I don't know if people have followed my postings on this thread, so I am going to write another quick summary: Dang Gui is generally listed as being warm, sweet, pungent/acrid, and bitter. The five flavours tell us that: " A pungent herb has moving and dispersing characteristics, which are able to disperse Wind, Cold, Heat and DAMPNESS and therefore treat corresponding disorders. " " A bitter herb possesses DRYING, reducing and downward-moving capabilities. " (CHM: Comparisons and Characteristics, YiFan Yang) Dang Gui is: " Acrid, Sweet and slight Bitter in flavour " (Ten Lectures on the use of Medicinals, ShuDe Jiang) " Slightly Sweet, Bitter and Warm " (CHM, YiFan Yang) " Sweet, Spicy, Bitter, Warm " (Synopsis of the Pharmacopeia, Cheung, Kaw, and Law) It may be that these secondary functions of Dang Gui (that it is good to use in dampness related conditions w/o fear of it aggravating the case) are not well known since it is so common to use only Dang Gui Shen (the body only, not the head or tail)...??? Thoughts? Hugo ________________________________ Hugo Ramiro http://middlemedicine.wordpress.com http://www.chinesemedicaltherapies.org ________________________________ <johnkokko Chinese Medicine Friday, 12 December, 2008 11:48:31 Re: Re: LV/GB Digestive Complaint Case Hugo, K. On Fri, Dec 12, 2008 at 8:43 AM, Hugo Ramiro <subincor > wrote: > Hi Z'ev and Jason: > > Dang Gui is slightly bitter. > > > Hugo > > ____________ _________ _________ __ > Hugo Ramiro > http://middlemedici ne.wordpress. com > http://www.chinesem edicaltherapies. org > > ____________ _________ _________ __ > <@chinesemed icinedoc. com<%40chinese medicinedoc. com> > > > <Traditional_ Chinese_Medicine %40. com> > Friday, 12 December, 2008 8:52:05 > RE: Re: LV/GB Digestive Complaint Case > > > SUNG, > > Thank you for your insight, your comments about dang gui are intriguing. > Hence, can you provide a reference that discusses that dang gui damages the > yin, I want to read the context in which this is said (Chinese is okay). > IMO, dang gui does not damage yin, I have not seen this clinically nor have > ever read this. > > 1) Consulting some materia medicas one will see that Dang gui is > actually indicated for things like " Kidney yin deficiency leading to > flooding and spotting & vaginal discharge. " In another source it has the > function of tonifying the blood, generating the blood, enriching the yin > and > moistening dryness. " There is reference after reference like this. > > 2) I also do not think you can say acrid = drying. Acrid in the Nei > Jing is said to scatter (and move.) Bitter is the flavor that is said to > dry > and drain. But dang gui is also sweet. Hence sweet and acrid go together > and > one should not think of these flavors in isolation. Sweet of course > relaxes, > moistens, harmonizes, and tonifies. Consequently dang gui nourishes the > yang > aspect of the blood and is used in many yin > > For example dang gui di huang yin (tonify Kidney and Liver yin) and yi guan > jian. One can not just give cool sticky herbs when someone is yin > deficient. > Dang gui has its place. > > That is my point of view, I would like to hear other's opinions. > > -Jason > > Traditional_ Chinese_Medicine > [Traditional _ Chinese_Medicine ] On Behalf Of > sxm2649 > Thursday, December 11, 2008 9:35 PM > > Re: LV/GB Digestive Complaint Case > > y..c. & all, > > 1 <<<I don't quite understand why dang gui would damage yin, after > all it's a blood tonic. Blood is an aspect of yin>>> > > Although dang gui can tonify/nourish the blood, it is acrid (dry) and > warm in nature; it will dry up the yin in one way or the other. Your > patient is skinny and has had digestive issue for long time. We > should avoid/be cautious to prescibe herbs with drying nature. > > There are differences between yin and the blood. The pathomechanism > of your patient is yin deficiency, not blood deficiency. Therefore, > the prescription is better off without it. > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 14, 2008 Report Share Posted December 14, 2008 I do not follow your logic, especially if it is based on dang gui being drying. -Jason Chinese Medicine Chinese Medicine On Behalf Of Hugo Ramiro Saturday, December 13, 2008 11:41 AM Chinese Medicine Re: Re: LV/GB Digestive Complaint Case Hi Jason: Jason: " I am not really following you here. Where does it say that dang gui is drying? " That's not really the point Jason. I am outlining a logical progression based on yin yang principles. It's be nice if I could get your opinion on the logic. Hugo ________________________________ Hugo Ramiro http://middlemedicine.wordpress.com http://www.chinesemedicaltherapies.org ________________________________ < <%40Chinese Medicine> > Chinese Medicine <Chinese Medicine%40> Saturday, 13 December, 2008 7:57:42 RE: Re: LV/GB Digestive Complaint Case Hugo, -Jason Traditional_ Chinese_Medicine [Traditional_ Chinese_Medicine ] On Behalf Of Hugo Ramiro Friday, December 12, 2008 10:46 AM Re: Re: LV/GB Digestive Complaint Case Hi Jason, one last question on your comment: When an herb is listed as being drying, that does not necessarily equate to it being damaging to yin qi, does it? Yin can be many things - if in the case of cold-phlegm, could it be that Dang Gui is warming and drying to the cold-phlegm yin qi, but supportive of the blood yin-qi? Framed another way, drying to the pathological yin qi but supportive of the righteous yin qi? If this is the case, then we would find " conflicting " reports that Dang Gui is both " drying " but supportive of yin qi. Does that make any sense? Hugo \ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 14, 2008 Report Share Posted December 14, 2008 Hi,Jason and all, Thank you for all your responses. In China, all TCM college students use the same national textbooks. According to the Chinese herbology, Shanghai, fifth edition 1984, the nature and flavor of dang gui are ¡¥sweetness, acridity, and warmth¡¦. It can ¡¥tonify the blood, move the blood, check the pain, and moisten intestines¡¦. The sixth edition (Shanghai, 1994) just adds one more usage: menustration-regulating. My point is, we may have learnt our information from different sources. As we know that the medicinal property of individual medicinal can be influenced by several factors: place of origin, preparations, methods/time of cooking, etc. Some discussions are dang gui (I am not an expert just tell what I know) Place of origin: Dang dui is unique because there are actually two kinds of dang gui available in herbal shops, according to the place of origin. Those grown in Qin county, Gansu Province is like the size of ping pong ball (first grade that sold outside China) that is sweet and edible for soups (more tonifying); the others (grown in Shannxi, Sichauan, Yannan Provinces) are more inclined to therapeutic purpose that is bitter and acrid (more blood-moving, blood-nourishing). Different parts of dang gui address different medicinal actions: the root part addresses blood-moving; the body, blood-tonfiying; the whole dang gui, blood-tonifying and blood-moving. As a common practice, wholesalers will supply whole dang gui in herbal shops (sliced). Therefore, the tonifying action of ordinary dang gui is not outstanding. Usage: I (try to) upload three pdf files of the literature regarding the contraindications (underlined) of using dang gui from three sources. They are from reputable ben cao (materia medicas) writers in Qing dynasty (around 200 yrs ago). They all point out the intestines- moistening actions and raised red flag about its acridity and warmth nature. The followings are the translations. ¡¥Acrid flavor causes dispersion; those who have qi deficiency or fire effulgence are contradictive. Sweet flavor causes stagnation; those with stomach and spleen coldness are contraindicative.¡¦ ¡¥Dang gui: Sweetness and warmth can nourish the blood; acridity and warmth can disperse internal coldness; bitterness and warmth assist the heart.¡¦ ¡¥Dang gui, its nature (qi) and flavor are acrid and warm; despite the fact that it can tonify the blood and move the blood, its nature is blood-moving and blood-quickening. Therefore it can moisten the intestines. Its qi is incompatible /incongruent with the stomach qi. Therefore, those who have weak stomach and intestines issue, diarrhea, loose stools, or with all kinds of digestive diseases, averse to eat, absence of appetite, or with weak transformation of food are all forbidden from its usage. ¡K¡KDue to its acridity and warmth, its dispersing actions are stronger than that of ma huang and xi xin¡K¡K¡K.¡¦ As the case discussed here is a patient of spleen qi deficiency and stomach yin deficiency, I therefore believe dang gui may not be the best choice in the prescribed formula. It is based upon the comprehensive understanding of diagnostics, herbs, and clinical experiences. I am programmed/accustomed to use certain herbs for certain signs. other practitioners are perfectly justified to use dang gui here if they deem necessary. <<<I also do not think you can say acrid = drying.>>>> I agree they are not the same. Acridity is only a flavor and I do not know how much ¡¥acridity¡¦ it takes to see ¡¥drying¡¦ effect. However, if a medicinal that is both ¡¥acrid¡¦ and ¡¥warm¡¦, I will be more alert of its dryness-transforming potential, especially for patient who is marked by yin deficiency rather than focusing upon the blood-nourishing aspect of that herb. Moreover, the patient shows no signs of blood deficiency. Last but not the least, according to Shen Nong Ben Cao Jing (The Herbal Canon), dang gui is ¡¥sweetness in flavor and warm that governs rebellious qi¡K..women (with) spotting and infertility, all incised wounds¡K.¡¦I guess it is because pre-ZHANG, Zhong-jing time, doctors only use dang gui from Gansu Province that is more sweet. Later doctors found that dang gui is also bitter and acrid; therefore, our textbooks manifest the experiences and differences of ancient medical texts. We can cite the original but also need to comprehend the changes. My support for Obama. There are so much more ambiguities about CM that needs to be discussed. I am thankful for the opportunity to share my thoughts here with other experienced listed members. My 2 cents, SUNG, Yuk-ming Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 14, 2008 Report Share Posted December 14, 2008 Hi YukMing, YM: " <<<I also do not think you can say acrid = drying.>>>> I agree they are not the same. Acridity is only a flavor and I do not know how much ¡¥acridity¡¦ it takes to see ¡¥drying¡¦ effect. However, if a medicinal that is both ¡¥acrid¡¦ and ¡¥warm¡¦, I will be more alert of its dryness-transforming potential " So...is it drying in action or not? Dang Gui is both warm and drying... Hugo ________________________________ Hugo Ramiro http://middlemedicine.wordpress.com http://www.chinesemedicaltherapies.org ________________________________ sxm2649 <sxm2649 Chinese Medicine Sunday, 14 December, 2008 0:55:20 Re: LV/GB Digestive Complaint Case Hi,Jason and all, Thank you for all your responses. In China, all TCM college students use the same national textbooks. According to the Chinese herbology, Shanghai, fifth edition 1984, the nature and flavor of dang gui are ¡¥sweetness, acridity, and warmth¡¦. It can ¡¥tonify the blood, move the blood, check the pain, and moisten intestines¡¦. The sixth edition (Shanghai, 1994) just adds one more usage: menustration- regulating. My point is, we may have learnt our information from different sources. As we know that the medicinal property of individual medicinal can be influenced by several factors: place of origin, preparations, methods/time of cooking, etc. Some discussions are dang gui (I am not an expert just tell what I know) Place of origin: Dang dui is unique because there are actually two kinds of dang gui available in herbal shops, according to the place of origin. Those grown in Qin county, Gansu Province is like the size of ping pong ball (first grade that sold outside China) that is sweet and edible for soups (more tonifying); the others (grown in Shannxi, Sichauan, Yannan Provinces) are more inclined to therapeutic purpose that is bitter and acrid (more blood-moving, blood-nourishing) . Different parts of dang gui address different medicinal actions: the root part addresses blood-moving; the body, blood-tonfiying; the whole dang gui, blood-tonifying and blood-moving. As a common practice, wholesalers will supply whole dang gui in herbal shops (sliced). Therefore, the tonifying action of ordinary dang gui is not outstanding. Usage: I (try to) upload three pdf files of the literature regarding the contraindications (underlined) of using dang gui from three sources. They are from reputable ben cao (materia medicas) writers in Qing dynasty (around 200 yrs ago). They all point out the intestines- moistening actions and raised red flag about its acridity and warmth nature. The followings are the translations. ¡¥Acrid flavor causes dispersion; those who have qi deficiency or fire effulgence are contradictive. Sweet flavor causes stagnation; those with stomach and spleen coldness are contraindicative.¡¦ ¡¥Dang gui: Sweetness and warmth can nourish the blood; acridity and warmth can disperse internal coldness; bitterness and warmth assist the heart.¡¦ ¡¥Dang gui, its nature (qi) and flavor are acrid and warm; despite the fact that it can tonify the blood and move the blood, its nature is blood-moving and blood-quickening.. Therefore it can moisten the intestines. Its qi is incompatible /incongruent with the stomach qi. Therefore, those who have weak stomach and intestines issue, diarrhea, loose stools, or with all kinds of digestive diseases, averse to eat, absence of appetite, or with weak transformation of food are all forbidden from its usage. ¡K¡KDue to its acridity and warmth, its dispersing actions are stronger than that of ma huang and xi xin¡K¡K¡K.¡¦ As the case discussed here is a patient of spleen qi deficiency and stomach yin deficiency, I therefore believe dang gui may not be the best choice in the prescribed formula. It is based upon the comprehensive understanding of diagnostics, herbs, and clinical experiences. I am programmed/accustom ed to use certain herbs for certain signs. other practitioners are perfectly justified to use dang gui here if they deem necessary. <<<I also do not think you can say acrid = drying.>>>> I agree they are not the same. Acridity is only a flavor and I do not know how much ¡¥acridity¡¦ it takes to see ¡¥drying¡¦ effect. However, if a medicinal that is both ¡¥acrid¡¦ and ¡¥warm¡¦, I will be more alert of its dryness-transformin g potential, especially for patient who is marked by yin deficiency rather than focusing upon the blood-nourishing aspect of that herb. Moreover, the patient shows no signs of blood deficiency. Last but not the least, according to Shen Nong Ben Cao Jing (The Herbal Canon), dang gui is ¡¥sweetness in flavor and warm that governs rebellious qi¡K..women (with) spotting and infertility, all incised wounds¡K.¡¦I guess it is because pre-ZHANG, Zhong-jing time, doctors only use dang gui from Gansu Province that is more sweet. Later doctors found that dang gui is also bitter and acrid; therefore, our textbooks manifest the experiences and differences of ancient medical texts. We can cite the original but also need to comprehend the changes. My support for Obama. There are so much more ambiguities about CM that needs to be discussed. I am thankful for the opportunity to share my thoughts here with other experienced listed members. My 2 cents, SUNG, Yuk-ming Messages in this topic (23) Reply (via web post) | Start a new topic Messages | Files | Photos | Links | Database | Polls | Calendar Subscribe to the free online journal for TCM at Times http://www.chinesemedicinetimes.com Help build the world's largest online encyclopedia for Chinese medicine and acupuncture, click, http://www.chinesemedicinetimes.com/wiki/CMTpedia and adjust accordingly. Please consider the environment and only print this message if absolutely necessary. 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