Guest guest Posted December 9, 2008 Report Share Posted December 9, 2008 Hi. I am asking for help with diagnosis and treatment of a patient. I will post their clinical presentation, but since it is extensive, I want to first just ask; Does anyone have experience with a person whose tongue has a black patch in the middle of the tongue body? How can you tell true interior heat from true cold, false heat from false cold, and how ominous is this presentation? I know the standard diagnostic TCM associations that indicate the patients subjective experience of lack of warmth, or heat. This is the most complicated I have seen, and I want to help. The eyes, mental state is very clear present and positive, and the continuity of the mental state is natural, not forced by office visits. I am thinking the root is in childhood emotional difficulty, which she agrees. Grew up in a rough town with an abused, negligent mother, had to fight her way( once by hitting a boy with a rock to keep him from raping her) but unfortunately continued into a marriage where she felt things where honest, but the man lied about a vasectomy; she got pregnant and was absolutely against abortion. I met her son and he is a beautiful boy, has adhd and needs constant attention. The father's family suffers from this pervasive disharmony. I have her permission to talk about this to you all. The patch is firmly rooted, with a very little purple at some of the border of the apx 1 inch patch. It is in the stomach/spleen position-but geez, that is only one area of intermittent complaint. Pain in; neck, shoulder, back, lumbar, legs (along bladder and gall bladder channel trajectories.) There are nodules that come and go with massage and acupuncture, and the patient is very compliant with varies herbal stratagies we have tried. I feel I am missing something. She does not use or overuse antibiotics, no excessive alcohol consumption She is 39 yrs old, strong physique and on the lean side, slightly assymetrical body. Left leg slightly shorter than right, left breast slightly smaller than right, with an extra set of cervical/thoracic ribs. Pain from pressure in the neck, and legs from compensating when walking etc. Relief from pain with vigorous massage, acupuncture, heat. Previous and intermittent uveitis. Seems to be pre-heaven. Pulses are a little weak in both deep kidney positions, more weak in kd yang pos., slightly weak lung, stomach pulses seem good. No appearance of cancer or tumors in tests. A little discomfort at menses, she is another woman who can feel which ovary is active. Main complaint; pain If anyone wants more info, pls let me know if you want me to give more info, as I said the presentation is extensive and illusive, more of a constituional than --- On Fri, 12/5/08, Emmauel Segmen <mrsegmen wrote: Emmauel Segmen <mrsegmen Re: 8 Extra Chinese Medicine Friday, December 5, 2008, 5:15 AM Jason R., Jason B., Kokko, Karen and other Responders, This is a rich collection of information. Excellent thread in the manner of a graduate seminar. I think Jason B.'s answer is a good one (thanks) and appreciate what Jason Robertson has to disclose about the 8-Extra dinner conversation with Jason B. as well as his description of what is a " harmonizer " or even an integrator function for the 8 Extraordinary Vessels. My sense is that physiological integration begins only when there is good differentiation and good function in each organ and organ system, i.e. they don't impinge on each other. Your thoughts, Jason R., on this topic are deeper and more considered than my own. Please carry on. I'm very interested in your clinical analysis. I'm especially interested in how the 8 Extra. Vess. as harmonizers might free up channels in stasis. I don't see any contradiction in other responders presenting classical differences between Chinese and Japanese styles of treatment that are well known and established. I've seen experts in tui na and qi gong address this issue, the former with more immediate results and the latter with more gradual results. While I agree with you Jason R. that this is complex and not a linear one to one, Dr. Kang surprises me with how quickly he gets results. I'll ask Dr. Ping Qi Kang for his thoughts on this. I want also to hear, Jason R., you thoughts on differentiation of channels as the most important part of integration from any of these treatment protocols. Perhaps, Jason R., that your own normally deep needling technique in someway accesses what Karen was describing about Jeffrey Yuen's work in this area. I think that Karen would have a hard time trying to describe Yuen's profoundly complex needling technique, but I for one would love to hear what she thinks. Jeffrey's presentation is challenging, high velocity, complex and assumes a depth of knowledge and facility with Taoist ideas that I do not have in the realm of Chinese medicine ... though I like pondering his words. I'd be interested to hear more from Karen if she feels inclined to say a few more words. Respectfully and gratefully, Emmanuel Segmen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 9, 2008 Report Share Posted December 9, 2008 Traditionally, black coat (middle of the tongue) can be Da cheng qi tang presentation... what are her BM movements? and there's the pepto-bismol side effect... On Mon, Dec 8, 2008 at 9:26 PM, mystir <ykcul_ritsym wrote: > Hi. I am asking for help with diagnosis and treatment of a patient. I > will post their clinical presentation, but since it is extensive, I want to > first just ask; Does anyone have experience with a person whose tongue has a > black patch in the middle of the tongue body? > How can you tell true interior heat from true cold, false heat from false > cold, and how ominous is this presentation? I know the standard diagnostic > TCM associations that indicate the patients subjective experience of lack of > warmth, or heat. > This is the most complicated I have seen, and I want to help. The eyes, > mental state is very clear present and positive, and the continuity of the > mental state is natural, not forced by office visits. I am thinking the > root is in childhood emotional difficulty, which she agrees. Grew up in a > rough town with an abused, negligent mother, had to fight her way( once by > hitting a boy with a rock to keep him from raping her) but unfortunately > continued into a marriage where she felt things where honest, but the man > lied about a vasectomy; she got pregnant and was absolutely against > abortion. I met her son and he is a beautiful boy, has adhd and needs > constant attention. The father's family suffers from this pervasive > disharmony. I have her permission to talk about this to you all. > The patch is firmly rooted, with a very little purple at some of the > border of the apx 1 inch patch. It is in the stomach/spleen position-but > geez, that is only one area of intermittent complaint. Pain in; neck, > shoulder, back, lumbar, legs (along bladder and gall bladder channel > trajectories.) There are nodules that come and go with massage and > acupuncture, and the patient is very compliant with varies herbal stratagies > we have tried. I feel I am missing something. > She does not use or overuse antibiotics, no excessive alcohol consumption > She is 39 yrs old, strong physique and on the lean side, slightly > assymetrical body. Left leg slightly shorter > than right, left breast slightly smaller than right, with an extra set > of cervical/thoracic ribs. Pain from pressure in the neck, and legs from > compensating when walking etc. Relief from pain with vigorous massage, > acupuncture, heat. Previous and intermittent uveitis. Seems to be > pre-heaven. Pulses are a little weak in both deep kidney positions, more > weak in kd yang pos., slightly weak lung, stomach pulses seem good. No > appearance of cancer or tumors in tests. A little discomfort at menses, she > is another woman who can feel which ovary is active. > Main complaint; pain > If anyone wants more info, pls let me know if you want me to give more > info, as I said the presentation is extensive and illusive, more of a > constituional than > > --- On Fri, 12/5/08, Emmauel Segmen <mrsegmen<mrsegmen%40comcast.net>> > wrote: > Emmauel Segmen <mrsegmen <mrsegmen%40comcast.net>> > Re: 8 Extra > To: Chinese Medicine <Chinese Medicine%40yaho\ ogroups.com> > Friday, December 5, 2008, 5:15 AM > > Jason R., Jason B., Kokko, Karen and other Responders, > > This is a rich collection of information. Excellent thread in the manner of > a graduate seminar. I think Jason B.'s answer is a good one (thanks) and > appreciate what Jason Robertson has to disclose about the 8-Extra dinner > conversation with Jason B. as well as his description of what is a > " harmonizer " or even an integrator function for the 8 Extraordinary Vessels. > > > My sense is that physiological integration begins only when there is good > differentiation and good function in each organ and organ system, i.e. they > don't impinge on each other. Your thoughts, Jason R., on this topic are > deeper and more considered than my own. Please carry on. I'm very interested > in your clinical analysis. I'm especially interested in how the 8 Extra. > Vess. as harmonizers might free up channels in stasis. > > I don't see any contradiction in other responders presenting classical > differences between Chinese and Japanese styles of treatment that are well > known and established. I've seen experts in tui na and qi gong address this > issue, the former with more immediate results and the latter with more > gradual results. While I agree with you Jason R. that this is complex and > not a linear one to one, Dr. Kang surprises me with how quickly he gets > results. I'll ask Dr. Ping Qi Kang for his thoughts on this. I want also to > hear, Jason R., you thoughts on differentiation of channels as the most > important part of integration from any of these treatment protocols. > > Perhaps, Jason R., that your own normally deep needling technique in > someway accesses what Karen was describing about Jeffrey Yuen's work in this > area. I think that Karen would have a hard time trying to describe Yuen's > profoundly complex needling technique, but I for one would love to hear what > she thinks. Jeffrey's presentation is challenging, high velocity, complex > and assumes a depth of knowledge and facility with Taoist ideas that I do > not have in the realm of Chinese medicine ... though I like pondering his > words. I'd be interested to hear more from Karen if she feels inclined to > say a few more words. > > Respectfully and gratefully, > > Emmanuel Segmen > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 9, 2008 Report Share Posted December 9, 2008 Black coating can be either excessive heat or excessive cold. Mike L. --- On Mon, 12/8/08, <johnkokko wrote: <johnkokko Re: Re: 8 Extra, black tongue, pls help Chinese Medicine Monday, December 8, 2008, 11:03 PM Traditionally, black coat (middle of the tongue) can be Da cheng qi tang presentation. .. what are her BM movements? and there's the pepto-bismol side effect... On Mon, Dec 8, 2008 at 9:26 PM, mystir <ykcul_ritsym@ > wrote: > Hi. I am asking for help with diagnosis and treatment of a patient. I > will post their clinical presentation, but since it is extensive, I want to > first just ask; Does anyone have experience with a person whose tongue has a > black patch in the middle of the tongue body? > How can you tell true interior heat from true cold, false heat from false > cold, and how ominous is this presentation? I know the standard diagnostic > TCM associations that indicate the patients subjective experience of lack of > warmth, or heat. > This is the most complicated I have seen, and I want to help. The eyes, > mental state is very clear present and positive, and the continuity of the > mental state is natural, not forced by office visits. I am thinking the > root is in childhood emotional difficulty, which she agrees. Grew up in a > rough town with an abused, negligent mother, had to fight her way( once by > hitting a boy with a rock to keep him from raping her) but unfortunately > continued into a marriage where she felt things where honest, but the man > lied about a vasectomy; she got pregnant and was absolutely against > abortion. I met her son and he is a beautiful boy, has adhd and needs > constant attention. The father's family suffers from this pervasive > disharmony. I have her permission to talk about this to you all. > The patch is firmly rooted, with a very little purple at some of the > border of the apx 1 inch patch. It is in the stomach/spleen position-but > geez, that is only one area of intermittent complaint. Pain in; neck, > shoulder, back, lumbar, legs (along bladder and gall bladder channel > trajectories. ) There are nodules that come and go with massage and > acupuncture, and the patient is very compliant with varies herbal stratagies > we have tried. I feel I am missing something. > She does not use or overuse antibiotics, no excessive alcohol consumption > She is 39 yrs old, strong physique and on the lean side, slightly > assymetrical body. Left leg slightly shorter > than right, left breast slightly smaller than right, with an extra set > of cervical/thoracic ribs. Pain from pressure in the neck, and legs from > compensating when walking etc. Relief from pain with vigorous massage, > acupuncture, heat. Previous and intermittent uveitis. Seems to be > pre-heaven. Pulses are a little weak in both deep kidney positions, more > weak in kd yang pos., slightly weak lung, stomach pulses seem good. No > appearance of cancer or tumors in tests. A little discomfort at menses, she > is another woman who can feel which ovary is active. > Main complaint; pain > If anyone wants more info, pls let me know if you want me to give more > info, as I said the presentation is extensive and illusive, more of a > constituional than > > --- On Fri, 12/5/08, Emmauel Segmen <mrsegmen (AT) comcast (DOT) net<mrsegmen%40comcast ..net>> > wrote: > Emmauel Segmen <mrsegmen (AT) comcast (DOT) net <mrsegmen%40comcast .net>> > Re: 8 Extra > <Traditional_ Chinese_Medicine %40. com> > Friday, December 5, 2008, 5:15 AM > > Jason R., Jason B., Kokko, Karen and other Responders, > > This is a rich collection of information. Excellent thread in the manner of > a graduate seminar. I think Jason B.'s answer is a good one (thanks) and > appreciate what Jason Robertson has to disclose about the 8-Extra dinner > conversation with Jason B. as well as his description of what is a > " harmonizer " or even an integrator function for the 8 Extraordinary Vessels. > > > My sense is that physiological integration begins only when there is good > differentiation and good function in each organ and organ system, i.e. they > don't impinge on each other. Your thoughts, Jason R., on this topic are > deeper and more considered than my own. Please carry on. I'm very interested > in your clinical analysis. I'm especially interested in how the 8 Extra. > Vess. as harmonizers might free up channels in stasis. > > I don't see any contradiction in other responders presenting classical > differences between Chinese and Japanese styles of treatment that are well > known and established. I've seen experts in tui na and qi gong address this > issue, the former with more immediate results and the latter with more > gradual results. While I agree with you Jason R. that this is complex and > not a linear one to one, Dr. Kang surprises me with how quickly he gets > results. I'll ask Dr. Ping Qi Kang for his thoughts on this. I want also to > hear, Jason R., you thoughts on differentiation of channels as the most > important part of integration from any of these treatment protocols. > > Perhaps, Jason R., that your own normally deep needling technique in > someway accesses what Karen was describing about Jeffrey Yuen's work in this > area. I think that Karen would have a hard time trying to describe Yuen's > profoundly complex needling technique, but I for one would love to hear what > she thinks. Jeffrey's presentation is challenging, high velocity, complex > and assumes a depth of knowledge and facility with Taoist ideas that I do > not have in the realm of Chinese medicine ... though I like pondering his > words. I'd be interested to hear more from Karen if she feels inclined to > say a few more words. > > Respectfully and gratefully, > > Emmanuel Segmen > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 9, 2008 Report Share Posted December 9, 2008 FYI - A black tongue coating can be caused by Pepto Bismol if it has not been there before. -Steve Stephen Bonzak, L.Ac., Dipl. C.H. http://www.health-traditions.com sbonzak 773-470-6994 On Dec 8, 2008, at 11:26 PM, mystir wrote: > Hi. I am asking for help with diagnosis and treatment of a > patient. I will post their clinical presentation, but since it is > extensive, I want to first just ask; Does anyone have experience > with a person whose tongue has a black patch in the middle of the > tongue body? > How can you tell true interior heat from true cold, false heat > from false cold, and how ominous is this presentation? I know the > standard diagnostic TCM associations that indicate the patients > subjective experience of lack of warmth, or heat. > This is the most complicated I have seen, and I want to help. The > eyes, mental state is very clear present and positive, and the > continuity of the mental state is natural, not forced by office > visits. I am thinking the root is in childhood emotional > difficulty, which she agrees. Grew up in a rough town with an > abused, negligent mother, had to fight her way( once by hitting a > boy with a rock to keep him from raping her) but unfortunately > continued into a marriage where she felt things where honest, but > the man lied about a vasectomy; she got pregnant and was absolutely > against abortion. I met her son and he is a beautiful boy, has adhd > and needs constant attention. The father's family suffers from this > pervasive disharmony. I have her permission to talk about this to > you all. > The patch is firmly rooted, with a very little purple at some of > the border of the apx 1 inch patch. It is in the stomach/spleen > position-but geez, that is only one area of intermittent complaint. > Pain in; neck, shoulder, back, lumbar, legs (along bladder and gall > bladder channel trajectories.) There are nodules that come and go > with massage and acupuncture, and the patient is very compliant > with varies herbal stratagies we have tried. I feel I am missing > something. > She does not use or overuse antibiotics, no excessive alcohol > consumption > She is 39 yrs old, strong physique and on the lean side, slightly > assymetrical body. Left leg slightly shorter > than right, left breast slightly smaller than right, with an extra set > of cervical/thoracic ribs. Pain from pressure in the neck, and legs > from compensating when walking etc. Relief from pain with vigorous > massage, > acupuncture, heat. Previous and intermittent uveitis. Seems to be > pre-heaven. Pulses are a little weak in both deep kidney positions, > more weak in kd yang pos., slightly weak lung, stomach pulses seem > good. No appearance of cancer or tumors in tests. A little > discomfort at menses, she is another woman who can feel which ovary > is active. > Main complaint; pain > If anyone wants more info, pls let me know if you want me to give > more info, as I said the presentation is extensive and illusive, > more of a constituional than > > --- On Fri, 12/5/08, Emmauel Segmen <mrsegmen wrote: > Emmauel Segmen <mrsegmen > Re: 8 Extra > Chinese Medicine > Friday, December 5, 2008, 5:15 AM > > Jason R., Jason B., Kokko, Karen and other Responders, > > This is a rich collection of information. Excellent thread in the > manner of a graduate seminar. I think Jason B.'s answer is a good > one (thanks) and appreciate what Jason Robertson has to disclose > about the 8-Extra dinner conversation with Jason B. as well as his > description of what is a " harmonizer " or even an integrator > function for the 8 Extraordinary Vessels. > > My sense is that physiological integration begins only when there > is good differentiation and good function in each organ and organ > system, i.e. they don't impinge on each other. Your thoughts, Jason > R., on this topic are deeper and more considered than my own. > Please carry on. I'm very interested in your clinical analysis. I'm > especially interested in how the 8 Extra. Vess. as harmonizers > might free up channels in stasis. > > I don't see any contradiction in other responders presenting > classical differences between Chinese and Japanese styles of > treatment that are well known and established. I've seen experts in > tui na and qi gong address this issue, the former with more > immediate results and the latter with more gradual results. While I > agree with you Jason R. that this is complex and not a linear one > to one, Dr. Kang surprises me with how quickly he gets results. > I'll ask Dr. Ping Qi Kang for his thoughts on this. I want also to > hear, Jason R., you thoughts on differentiation of channels as the > most important part of integration from any of these treatment > protocols. > > Perhaps, Jason R., that your own normally deep needling technique > in someway accesses what Karen was describing about Jeffrey Yuen's > work in this area. I think that Karen would have a hard time trying > to describe Yuen's profoundly complex needling technique, but I for > one would love to hear what she thinks. Jeffrey's presentation is > challenging, high velocity, complex and assumes a depth of > knowledge and facility with Taoist ideas that I do not have in the > realm of Chinese medicine ... though I like pondering his words. > I'd be interested to hear more from Karen if she feels inclined to > say a few more words. > > Respectfully and gratefully, > > Emmanuel Segmen > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 9, 2008 Report Share Posted December 9, 2008 This might not help you, I can't tell you from a TCM prospective but I can tell you I see a black coating in some of my Lyme patients. Has she been tested for Lyme? Clarissa --- On Tue, 12/9/08, <johnkokko wrote: <johnkokko Re: Re: 8 Extra, black tongue, pls help Chinese Medicine Tuesday, December 9, 2008, 2:03 AM Traditionally, black coat (middle of the tongue) can be Da cheng qi tang presentation. .. what are her BM movements? and there's the pepto-bismol side effect... On Mon, Dec 8, 2008 at 9:26 PM, mystir <ykcul_ritsym@ > wrote: > Hi. I am asking for help with diagnosis and treatment of a patient. I > will post their clinical presentation, but since it is extensive, I want to > first just ask; Does anyone have experience with a person whose tongue has a > black patch in the middle of the tongue body? > How can you tell true interior heat from true cold, false heat from false > cold, and how ominous is this presentation? I know the standard diagnostic > TCM associations that indicate the patients subjective experience of lack of > warmth, or heat. > This is the most complicated I have seen, and I want to help. The eyes, > mental state is very clear present and positive, and the continuity of the > mental state is natural, not forced by office visits. I am thinking the > root is in childhood emotional difficulty, which she agrees. Grew up in a > rough town with an abused, negligent mother, had to fight her way( once by > hitting a boy with a rock to keep him from raping her) but unfortunately > continued into a marriage where she felt things where honest, but the man > lied about a vasectomy; she got pregnant and was absolutely against > abortion. I met her son and he is a beautiful boy, has adhd and needs > constant attention. The father's family suffers from this pervasive > disharmony. I have her permission to talk about this to you all. > The patch is firmly rooted, with a very little purple at some of the > border of the apx 1 inch patch. It is in the stomach/spleen position-but > geez, that is only one area of intermittent complaint. Pain in; neck, > shoulder, back, lumbar, legs (along bladder and gall bladder channel > trajectories. ) There are nodules that come and go with massage and > acupuncture, and the patient is very compliant with varies herbal stratagies > we have tried. I feel I am missing something. > She does not use or overuse antibiotics, no excessive alcohol consumption > She is 39 yrs old, strong physique and on the lean side, slightly > assymetrical body. Left leg slightly shorter > than right, left breast slightly smaller than right, with an extra set > of cervical/thoracic ribs. Pain from pressure in the neck, and legs from > compensating when walking etc. Relief from pain with vigorous massage, > acupuncture, heat. Previous and intermittent uveitis. Seems to be > pre-heaven. Pulses are a little weak in both deep kidney positions, more > weak in kd yang pos., slightly weak lung, stomach pulses seem good. No > appearance of cancer or tumors in tests. A little discomfort at menses, she > is another woman who can feel which ovary is active. > Main complaint; pain > If anyone wants more info, pls let me know if you want me to give more > info, as I said the presentation is extensive and illusive, more of a > constituional than > > --- On Fri, 12/5/08, Emmauel Segmen <mrsegmen (AT) comcast (DOT) net<mrsegmen%40comcast ..net>> > wrote: > Emmauel Segmen <mrsegmen (AT) comcast (DOT) net <mrsegmen%40comcast .net>> > Re: 8 Extra > <Traditional_ Chinese_Medicine %40. com> > Friday, December 5, 2008, 5:15 AM > > Jason R., Jason B., Kokko, Karen and other Responders, > > This is a rich collection of information. Excellent thread in the manner of > a graduate seminar. I think Jason B.'s answer is a good one (thanks) and > appreciate what Jason Robertson has to disclose about the 8-Extra dinner > conversation with Jason B. as well as his description of what is a > " harmonizer " or even an integrator function for the 8 Extraordinary Vessels. > > > My sense is that physiological integration begins only when there is good > differentiation and good function in each organ and organ system, i.e. they > don't impinge on each other. Your thoughts, Jason R., on this topic are > deeper and more considered than my own. Please carry on. I'm very interested > in your clinical analysis. I'm especially interested in how the 8 Extra. > Vess. as harmonizers might free up channels in stasis. > > I don't see any contradiction in other responders presenting classical > differences between Chinese and Japanese styles of treatment that are well > known and established. I've seen experts in tui na and qi gong address this > issue, the former with more immediate results and the latter with more > gradual results. While I agree with you Jason R. that this is complex and > not a linear one to one, Dr. Kang surprises me with how quickly he gets > results. I'll ask Dr. Ping Qi Kang for his thoughts on this. I want also to > hear, Jason R., you thoughts on differentiation of channels as the most > important part of integration from any of these treatment protocols. > > Perhaps, Jason R., that your own normally deep needling technique in > someway accesses what Karen was describing about Jeffrey Yuen's work in this > area. I think that Karen would have a hard time trying to describe Yuen's > profoundly complex needling technique, but I for one would love to hear what > she thinks. Jeffrey's presentation is challenging, high velocity, complex > and assumes a depth of knowledge and facility with Taoist ideas that I do > not have in the realm of Chinese medicine ... though I like pondering his > words. I'd be interested to hear more from Karen if she feels inclined to > say a few more words. > > Respectfully and gratefully, > > Emmanuel Segmen > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 9, 2008 Report Share Posted December 9, 2008 Hi. There is no constipation history, actually tends to sometimes loose stool. Patient never uses pepto-bismol. No discomfort in abdomen, and since there is so little heat signs, I hesitate to give something so cold. No yin def. signs. Thanks. --- On Tue, 12/9/08, <johnkokko wrote: <johnkokko Re: Re: 8 Extra, black tongue, pls help Chinese Medicine Tuesday, December 9, 2008, 2:03 AM Traditionally, black coat (middle of the tongue) can be Da cheng qi tang presentation. .. what are her BM movements? and there's the pepto-bismol side effect... On Mon, Dec 8, 2008 at 9:26 PM, mystir <ykcul_ritsym@ > wrote: > Hi. I am asking for help with diagnosis and treatment of a patient. I > will post their clinical presentation, but since it is extensive, I want to > first just ask; Does anyone have experience with a person whose tongue has a > black patch in the middle of the tongue body? > How can you tell true interior heat from true cold, false heat from false > cold, and how ominous is this presentation? I know the standard diagnostic > TCM associations that indicate the patients subjective experience of lack of > warmth, or heat. > This is the most complicated I have seen, and I want to help. The eyes, > mental state is very clear present and positive, and the continuity of the > mental state is natural, not forced by office visits. I am thinking the > root is in childhood emotional difficulty, which she agrees. Grew up in a > rough town with an abused, negligent mother, had to fight her way( once by > hitting a boy with a rock to keep him from raping her) but unfortunately > continued into a marriage where she felt things where honest, but the man > lied about a vasectomy; she got pregnant and was absolutely against > abortion. I met her son and he is a beautiful boy, has adhd and needs > constant attention. The father's family suffers from this pervasive > disharmony. I have her permission to talk about this to you all. > The patch is firmly rooted, with a very little purple at some of the > border of the apx 1 inch patch. It is in the stomach/spleen position-but > geez, that is only one area of intermittent complaint. Pain in; neck, > shoulder, back, lumbar, legs (along bladder and gall bladder channel > trajectories. ) There are nodules that come and go with massage and > acupuncture, and the patient is very compliant with varies herbal stratagies > we have tried. I feel I am missing something. > She does not use or overuse antibiotics, no excessive alcohol consumption > She is 39 yrs old, strong physique and on the lean side, slightly > assymetrical body. Left leg slightly shorter > than right, left breast slightly smaller than right, with an extra set > of cervical/thoracic ribs. Pain from pressure in the neck, and legs from > compensating when walking etc. Relief from pain with vigorous massage, > acupuncture, heat. Previous and intermittent uveitis. Seems to be > pre-heaven. Pulses are a little weak in both deep kidney positions, more > weak in kd yang pos., slightly weak lung, stomach pulses seem good. No > appearance of cancer or tumors in tests. A little discomfort at menses, she > is another woman who can feel which ovary is active. > Main complaint; pain > If anyone wants more info, pls let me know if you want me to give more > info, as I said the presentation is extensive and illusive, more of a > constituional than > > --- On Fri, 12/5/08, Emmauel Segmen <mrsegmen (AT) comcast (DOT) net<mrsegmen%40comcast ..net>> > wrote: > Emmauel Segmen <mrsegmen (AT) comcast (DOT) net <mrsegmen%40comcast .net>> > Re: 8 Extra > <Traditional_ Chinese_Medicine %40. com> > Friday, December 5, 2008, 5:15 AM > > Jason R., Jason B., Kokko, Karen and other Responders, > > This is a rich collection of information. Excellent thread in the manner of > a graduate seminar. I think Jason B.'s answer is a good one (thanks) and > appreciate what Jason Robertson has to disclose about the 8-Extra dinner > conversation with Jason B. as well as his description of what is a > " harmonizer " or even an integrator function for the 8 Extraordinary Vessels. > > > My sense is that physiological integration begins only when there is good > differentiation and good function in each organ and organ system, i.e. they > don't impinge on each other. Your thoughts, Jason R., on this topic are > deeper and more considered than my own. Please carry on. I'm very interested > in your clinical analysis. I'm especially interested in how the 8 Extra. > Vess. as harmonizers might free up channels in stasis. > > I don't see any contradiction in other responders presenting classical > differences between Chinese and Japanese styles of treatment that are well > known and established. I've seen experts in tui na and qi gong address this > issue, the former with more immediate results and the latter with more > gradual results. While I agree with you Jason R. that this is complex and > not a linear one to one, Dr. Kang surprises me with how quickly he gets > results. I'll ask Dr. Ping Qi Kang for his thoughts on this. I want also to > hear, Jason R., you thoughts on differentiation of channels as the most > important part of integration from any of these treatment protocols. > > Perhaps, Jason R., that your own normally deep needling technique in > someway accesses what Karen was describing about Jeffrey Yuen's work in this > area. I think that Karen would have a hard time trying to describe Yuen's > profoundly complex needling technique, but I for one would love to hear what > she thinks. Jeffrey's presentation is challenging, high velocity, complex > and assumes a depth of knowledge and facility with Taoist ideas that I do > not have in the realm of Chinese medicine ... though I like pondering his > words. I'd be interested to hear more from Karen if she feels inclined to > say a few more words. > > Respectfully and gratefully, > > Emmanuel Segmen > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 9, 2008 Report Share Posted December 9, 2008 Hi. There is no constipation history, actually tends to sometimes loose stool. Patient never uses pepto-bismol. No discomfort in abdomen, and since there is so little heat signs, I hesitate to give something so cold. No yin def. signs. This is not acute, tongue sign has more or less been present a few years. Diagnosed with fibromyalgia long ago. Later found some anatomical basis. Looked for signs of blood/qi stagnation and phlegm hindering the channels(Bl. and GB), and there are some but not much in the tongue or pulse(just that black purplish patch. The rest of the tongue looks good-very light white coat, pink body w/o teethmarks. Formulas to move blood and qi, and clear phlegm have helped alleviate some pain, but not completely. Combination of fixed/wandering bi. Cold does aggravate it a little, heat does help a little. Maybe the tongue spot is a result of over brushing? I have to ask. Since things are so constitutional, and the only abnormality is the weak kidney pulse, I am going to try next time; SI3, UB62 combo in 8extra method, with maybe UB1 and Du1(we discussed these), and kidnet essence,yang and qi herbs. Any reponses are appreciated, Thanks. --- On Tue, 12/9/08, <johnkokko wrote: <johnkokko Re: Re: 8 Extra, black tongue, pls help Chinese Medicine Tuesday, December 9, 2008, 2:03 AM Traditionally, black coat (middle of the tongue) can be Da cheng qi tang presentation. .. what are her BM movements? and there's the pepto-bismol side effect... On Mon, Dec 8, 2008 at 9:26 PM, mystir <ykcul_ritsym@ > wrote: > Hi. I am asking for help with diagnosis and treatment of a patient. I > will post their clinical presentation, but since it is extensive, I want to > first just ask; Does anyone have experience with a person whose tongue has a > black patch in the middle of the tongue body? > How can you tell true interior heat from true cold, false heat from false > cold, and how ominous is this presentation? I know the standard diagnostic > TCM associations that indicate the patients subjective experience of lack of > warmth, or heat. > This is the most complicated I have seen, and I want to help. The eyes, > mental state is very clear present and positive, and the continuity of the > mental state is natural, not forced by office visits. I am thinking the > root is in childhood emotional difficulty, which she agrees. Grew up in a > rough town with an abused, negligent mother, had to fight her way( once by > hitting a boy with a rock to keep him from raping her) but unfortunately > continued into a marriage where she felt things where honest, but the man > lied about a vasectomy; she got pregnant and was absolutely against > abortion. I met her son and he is a beautiful boy, has adhd and needs > constant attention. The father's family suffers from this pervasive > disharmony. I have her permission to talk about this to you all. > The patch is firmly rooted, with a very little purple at some of the > border of the apx 1 inch patch. It is in the stomach/spleen position-but > geez, that is only one area of intermittent complaint. Pain in; neck, > shoulder, back, lumbar, legs (along bladder and gall bladder channel > trajectories. ) There are nodules that come and go with massage and > acupuncture, and the patient is very compliant with varies herbal stratagies > we have tried. I feel I am missing something. > She does not use or overuse antibiotics, no excessive alcohol consumption > She is 39 yrs old, strong physique and on the lean side, slightly > assymetrical body. Left leg slightly shorter > than right, left breast slightly smaller than right, with an extra set > of cervical/thoracic ribs. Pain from pressure in the neck, and legs from > compensating when walking etc. Relief from pain with vigorous massage, > acupuncture, heat. Previous and intermittent uveitis. Seems to be > pre-heaven. Pulses are a little weak in both deep kidney positions, more > weak in kd yang pos., slightly weak lung, stomach pulses seem good. No > appearance of cancer or tumors in tests. A little discomfort at menses, she > is another woman who can feel which ovary is active. > Main complaint; pain > If anyone wants more info, pls let me know if you want me to give more > info, as I said the presentation is extensive and illusive, more of a > constituional than > > --- On Fri, 12/5/08, Emmauel Segmen <mrsegmen (AT) comcast (DOT) net<mrsegmen%40comcast ..net>> > wrote: > Emmauel Segmen <mrsegmen (AT) comcast (DOT) net <mrsegmen%40comcast .net>> > Re: 8 Extra > <Traditional_ Chinese_Medicine %40. com> > Friday, December 5, 2008, 5:15 AM > > Jason R., Jason B., Kokko, Karen and other Responders, > > This is a rich collection of information. Excellent thread in the manner of > a graduate seminar. I think Jason B.'s answer is a good one (thanks) and > appreciate what Jason Robertson has to disclose about the 8-Extra dinner > conversation with Jason B. as well as his description of what is a > " harmonizer " or even an integrator function for the 8 Extraordinary Vessels. > > > My sense is that physiological integration begins only when there is good > differentiation and good function in each organ and organ system, i.e. they > don't impinge on each other. Your thoughts, Jason R., on this topic are > deeper and more considered than my own. Please carry on. I'm very interested > in your clinical analysis. I'm especially interested in how the 8 Extra. > Vess. as harmonizers might free up channels in stasis. > > I don't see any contradiction in other responders presenting classical > differences between Chinese and Japanese styles of treatment that are well > known and established. I've seen experts in tui na and qi gong address this > issue, the former with more immediate results and the latter with more > gradual results. While I agree with you Jason R. that this is complex and > not a linear one to one, Dr. Kang surprises me with how quickly he gets > results. I'll ask Dr. Ping Qi Kang for his thoughts on this. I want also to > hear, Jason R., you thoughts on differentiation of channels as the most > important part of integration from any of these treatment protocols. > > Perhaps, Jason R., that your own normally deep needling technique in > someway accesses what Karen was describing about Jeffrey Yuen's work in this > area. I think that Karen would have a hard time trying to describe Yuen's > profoundly complex needling technique, but I for one would love to hear what > she thinks. Jeffrey's presentation is challenging, high velocity, complex > and assumes a depth of knowledge and facility with Taoist ideas that I do > not have in the realm of Chinese medicine ... though I like pondering his > words. I'd be interested to hear more from Karen if she feels inclined to > say a few more words. > > Respectfully and gratefully, > > Emmanuel Segmen > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 9, 2008 Report Share Posted December 9, 2008 Hi: Can you justify a treatment for internal cold and blood stagnation? What are the patient's pulses like? Hugo ________________________________ Hugo Ramiro http://middlemedicine.wordpress.com http://www.chinesemedicaltherapies.org ________________________________ mystir <ykcul_ritsym Chinese Medicine Tuesday, 9 December, 2008 10:16:19 Re: Re: 8 Extra, black tongue, pls help Hi. There is no constipation history, actually tends to sometimes loose stool. Patient never uses pepto-bismol. No discomfort in abdomen, and since there is so little heat signs, I hesitate to give something so cold. No yin def. signs. Thanks.. --- On Tue, 12/9/08, <johnkokko (AT) gmail (DOT) com> wrote: <johnkokko (AT) gmail (DOT) com> Re: Re: 8 Extra, black tongue, pls help Tuesday, December 9, 2008, 2:03 AM Traditionally, black coat (middle of the tongue) can be Da cheng qi tang presentation. .. what are her BM movements? and there's the pepto-bismol side effect... On Mon, Dec 8, 2008 at 9:26 PM, mystir <ykcul_ritsym@ > wrote: > Hi. I am asking for help with diagnosis and treatment of a patient. I > will post their clinical presentation, but since it is extensive, I want to > first just ask; Does anyone have experience with a person whose tongue has a > black patch in the middle of the tongue body? > How can you tell true interior heat from true cold, false heat from false > cold, and how ominous is this presentation? I know the standard diagnostic > TCM associations that indicate the patients subjective experience of lack of > warmth, or heat. > This is the most complicated I have seen, and I want to help. The eyes, > mental state is very clear present and positive, and the continuity of the > mental state is natural, not forced by office visits. I am thinking the > root is in childhood emotional difficulty, which she agrees. Grew up in a > rough town with an abused, negligent mother, had to fight her way( once by > hitting a boy with a rock to keep him from raping her) but unfortunately > continued into a marriage where she felt things where honest, but the man > lied about a vasectomy; she got pregnant and was absolutely against > abortion. I met her son and he is a beautiful boy, has adhd and needs > constant attention. The father's family suffers from this pervasive > disharmony. I have her permission to talk about this to you all. > The patch is firmly rooted, with a very little purple at some of the > border of the apx 1 inch patch. It is in the stomach/spleen position-but > geez, that is only one area of intermittent complaint. Pain in; neck, > shoulder, back, lumbar, legs (along bladder and gall bladder channel > trajectories. ) There are nodules that come and go with massage and > acupuncture, and the patient is very compliant with varies herbal stratagies > we have tried. I feel I am missing something. > She does not use or overuse antibiotics, no excessive alcohol consumption > She is 39 yrs old, strong physique and on the lean side, slightly > assymetrical body. Left leg slightly shorter > than right, left breast slightly smaller than right, with an extra set > of cervical/thoracic ribs. Pain from pressure in the neck, and legs from > compensating when walking etc. Relief from pain with vigorous massage, > acupuncture, heat. Previous and intermittent uveitis. Seems to be > pre-heaven. Pulses are a little weak in both deep kidney positions, more > weak in kd yang pos., slightly weak lung, stomach pulses seem good. No > appearance of cancer or tumors in tests. A little discomfort at menses, she > is another woman who can feel which ovary is active. > Main complaint; pain > If anyone wants more info, pls let me know if you want me to give more > info, as I said the presentation is extensive and illusive, more of a > constituional than > > --- On Fri, 12/5/08, Emmauel Segmen <mrsegmen (AT) comcast (DOT) net<mrsegmen% 40comcast ..net>> > wrote: > Emmauel Segmen <mrsegmen (AT) comcast (DOT) net <mrsegmen%40comcast .net>> > Re: 8 Extra > <Traditional_ Chinese_Medicine %40. com> > Friday, December 5, 2008, 5:15 AM > > Jason R., Jason B., Kokko, Karen and other Responders, > > This is a rich collection of information. Excellent thread in the manner of > a graduate seminar. I think Jason B.'s answer is a good one (thanks) and > appreciate what Jason Robertson has to disclose about the 8-Extra dinner > conversation with Jason B. as well as his description of what is a > " harmonizer " or even an integrator function for the 8 Extraordinary Vessels. > > > My sense is that physiological integration begins only when there is good > differentiation and good function in each organ and organ system, i.e. they > don't impinge on each other. Your thoughts, Jason R., on this topic are > deeper and more considered than my own. Please carry on. I'm very interested > in your clinical analysis. I'm especially interested in how the 8 Extra. > Vess. as harmonizers might free up channels in stasis. > > I don't see any contradiction in other responders presenting classical > differences between Chinese and Japanese styles of treatment that are well > known and established. I've seen experts in tui na and qi gong address this > issue, the former with more immediate results and the latter with more > gradual results. While I agree with you Jason R. that this is complex and > not a linear one to one, Dr. Kang surprises me with how quickly he gets > results. I'll ask Dr. Ping Qi Kang for his thoughts on this. I want also to > hear, Jason R., you thoughts on differentiation of channels as the most > important part of integration from any of these treatment protocols. > > Perhaps, Jason R., that your own normally deep needling technique in > someway accesses what Karen was describing about Jeffrey Yuen's work in this > area. I think that Karen would have a hard time trying to describe Yuen's > profoundly complex needling technique, but I for one would love to hear what > she thinks. Jeffrey's presentation is challenging, high velocity, complex > and assumes a depth of knowledge and facility with Taoist ideas that I do > not have in the realm of Chinese medicine ... though I like pondering his > words. I'd be interested to hear more from Karen if she feels inclined to > say a few more words. > > Respectfully and gratefully, > > Emmanuel Segmen > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 9, 2008 Report Share Posted December 9, 2008 Thanks. I didn't know that Lyme disease sometimes show on the tongue that way. She said she never had Lyme disease, but it's possible it could have happened much earlier, before it became so accepted and widespread, and been missed. How accurate are tests for Lyme disease when it must have occurred at least ten years ago? And, as below, are intravenous antibiotics the most usual protocol if detected? The presentation seems to have stabilized to a constant, somewhat arthritic, not debilitating state. (For most patients, oral antibiotics (doxycycline or amoxicillin) are prescribed for 21 days. When symptoms indicate nervous system involvement or a severe episode of Lyme disease, intravenous antibiotic (ceftriaxone) may be given for 14-30 days. Some physicians consider intravenous ceftriaxone the best therapy for any late manifestation of disease, but treatments for late Lyme disease are still controversial as of 2003. Corticosteroids (oral) may be prescribed if eye abnormalities occur, but they should not be used without first consulting an eye doctor.) --- On Tue, 12/9/08, Rissa Guest <rissaguest wrote: Rissa Guest <rissaguest Re: Re: 8 Extra, black tongue, pls help Chinese Medicine Tuesday, December 9, 2008, 9:35 AM This might not help you, I can't tell you from a TCM prospective but I can tell you I see a black coating in some of my Lyme patients. Has she been tested for Lyme? Clarissa --- On Tue, 12/9/08, <johnkokko (AT) gmail (DOT) com> wrote: <johnkokko (AT) gmail (DOT) com> Re: Re: 8 Extra, black tongue, pls help Tuesday, December 9, 2008, 2:03 AM Traditionally, black coat (middle of the tongue) can be Da cheng qi tang presentation. .. what are her BM movements? and there's the pepto-bismol side effect... On Mon, Dec 8, 2008 at 9:26 PM, mystir <ykcul_ritsym@ > wrote: > Hi. I am asking for help with diagnosis and treatment of a patient. I > will post their clinical presentation, but since it is extensive, I want to > first just ask; Does anyone have experience with a person whose tongue has a > black patch in the middle of the tongue body? > How can you tell true interior heat from true cold, false heat from false > cold, and how ominous is this presentation? I know the standard diagnostic > TCM associations that indicate the patients subjective experience of lack of > warmth, or heat. > This is the most complicated I have seen, and I want to help. The eyes, > mental state is very clear present and positive, and the continuity of the > mental state is natural, not forced by office visits. I am thinking the > root is in childhood emotional difficulty, which she agrees. Grew up in a > rough town with an abused, negligent mother, had to fight her way( once by > hitting a boy with a rock to keep him from raping her) but unfortunately > continued into a marriage where she felt things where honest, but the man > lied about a vasectomy; she got pregnant and was absolutely against > abortion. I met her son and he is a beautiful boy, has adhd and needs > constant attention. The father's family suffers from this pervasive > disharmony. I have her permission to talk about this to you all. > The patch is firmly rooted, with a very little purple at some of the > border of the apx 1 inch patch. It is in the stomach/spleen position-but > geez, that is only one area of intermittent complaint. Pain in; neck, > shoulder, back, lumbar, legs (along bladder and gall bladder channel > trajectories. ) There are nodules that come and go with massage and > acupuncture, and the patient is very compliant with varies herbal stratagies > we have tried. I feel I am missing something. > She does not use or overuse antibiotics, no excessive alcohol consumption > She is 39 yrs old, strong physique and on the lean side, slightly > assymetrical body. Left leg slightly shorter > than right, left breast slightly smaller than right, with an extra set > of cervical/thoracic ribs. Pain from pressure in the neck, and legs from > compensating when walking etc. Relief from pain with vigorous massage, > acupuncture, heat. Previous and intermittent uveitis. Seems to be > pre-heaven. Pulses are a little weak in both deep kidney positions, more > weak in kd yang pos., slightly weak lung, stomach pulses seem good. No > appearance of cancer or tumors in tests. A little discomfort at menses, she > is another woman who can feel which ovary is active. > Main complaint; pain > If anyone wants more info, pls let me know if you want me to give more > info, as I said the presentation is extensive and illusive, more of a > constituional than > > --- On Fri, 12/5/08, Emmauel Segmen <mrsegmen (AT) comcast (DOT) net<mrsegmen% 40comcast ..net>> > wrote: > Emmauel Segmen <mrsegmen (AT) comcast (DOT) net <mrsegmen%40comcast .net>> > Re: 8 Extra > <Traditional_ Chinese_Medicine %40. com> > Friday, December 5, 2008, 5:15 AM > > Jason R., Jason B., Kokko, Karen and other Responders, > > This is a rich collection of information. Excellent thread in the manner of > a graduate seminar. I think Jason B.'s answer is a good one (thanks) and > appreciate what Jason Robertson has to disclose about the 8-Extra dinner > conversation with Jason B. as well as his description of what is a > " harmonizer " or even an integrator function for the 8 Extraordinary Vessels. > > > My sense is that physiological integration begins only when there is good > differentiation and good function in each organ and organ system, i.e. they > don't impinge on each other. Your thoughts, Jason R., on this topic are > deeper and more considered than my own. Please carry on. I'm very interested > in your clinical analysis. I'm especially interested in how the 8 Extra. > Vess. as harmonizers might free up channels in stasis. > > I don't see any contradiction in other responders presenting classical > differences between Chinese and Japanese styles of treatment that are well > known and established. I've seen experts in tui na and qi gong address this > issue, the former with more immediate results and the latter with more > gradual results. While I agree with you Jason R. that this is complex and > not a linear one to one, Dr. Kang surprises me with how quickly he gets > results. I'll ask Dr. Ping Qi Kang for his thoughts on this. I want also to > hear, Jason R., you thoughts on differentiation of channels as the most > important part of integration from any of these treatment protocols. > > Perhaps, Jason R., that your own normally deep needling technique in > someway accesses what Karen was describing about Jeffrey Yuen's work in this > area. I think that Karen would have a hard time trying to describe Yuen's > profoundly complex needling technique, but I for one would love to hear what > she thinks. Jeffrey's presentation is challenging, high velocity, complex > and assumes a depth of knowledge and facility with Taoist ideas that I do > not have in the realm of Chinese medicine ... though I like pondering his > words. I'd be interested to hear more from Karen if she feels inclined to > say a few more words. > > Respectfully and gratefully, > > Emmanuel Segmen > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 9, 2008 Report Share Posted December 9, 2008 Hi. I am a little confused because there aren't any definite hot or cold signs that are predominate. Just some subjective feelings of warmth and massage allieviating the pain, and then moving to the next area. Areas and trajectory of pain is; neck and shoulders(where extra ribs are)- more often r/s is worse, down outer sides of spine to waist and lumbar and sacral area, down the lateral/posterior part of thigh where it mostly submerges, to emerge and have a locus in the calves-lateral and posterior, and someties to the foot. The pain is somewhat fixed in the upper back and calves, but is sometimes shooting along the thigh to calves. She is thin, pretty active. Overall pulse rate is normal, not a wiry or soggy or superficial or strong or urgent pain or cold pulse, vessel is thin but I don't think excessively so for her build, I guess Xi Mai is closest. No big difference between left and right except left kid is a little weaker than r/s kid. wave of pulse is smooth through 3 positions. Hrt and Lu are felt best in middle level, not superficial or very deeply. Lv and Spl can be felt in three levels with Spl slightly more forceful than l/s, both most discernable in mid depth. She may have been hungry. Kd can be felt in deep position only and is weaker l/s. I do intend to feel the pulses more closely next time. Nothing stood out. Hope that is some clearer picture Hugo, thanks. --- On Tue, 12/9/08, Hugo Ramiro <subincor wrote: Hugo Ramiro <subincor Re: Re: 8 Extra, black tongue, pls help Chinese Medicine Tuesday, December 9, 2008, 11:57 AM Hi: Can you justify a treatment for internal cold and blood stagnation? What are the patient's pulses like? Hugo ____________ _________ _________ __ Hugo Ramiro http://middlemedici ne.wordpress. com http://www.chinesem edicaltherapies. org ____________ _________ _________ __ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 9, 2008 Report Share Posted December 9, 2008 Hi, overall she is probably weak in all areas, but as a root it seems like exhaustion and emotional trauma, therefore Kidney depletion and Liver Constraint leading to Stasis. I still think, in general, Internal Cold with Constraint/Stasis. I would treat Kidney Yang to activate her body (maybe preceded by a strong course of Hsiao Yao), and then see what she presents with from there. Sometimes we have to throw a rock to cause movement, and then we can see the pattern. Also, I'd be interested in knowing what her personality is like: creative, warm, shy, quiet etc. What seasons does she like, does she eat anything for breakfast? Hugo ________________________________ Hugo Ramiro http://middlemedicine.wordpress.com http://www.chinesemedicaltherapies.org ________________________________ mystir <ykcul_ritsym Chinese Medicine Tuesday, 9 December, 2008 13:00:54 Re: Re: 8 Extra, black tongue, pls help Hi. I am a little confused because there aren't any definite hot or cold signs that are predominate. Just some subjective feelings of warmth and massage allieviating the pain, and then moving to the next area. Areas and trajectory of pain is; neck and shoulders(where extra ribs are)- more often r/s is worse, down outer sides of spine to waist and lumbar and sacral area, down the lateral/posterior part of thigh where it mostly submerges, to emerge and have a locus in the calves-lateral and posterior, and someties to the foot. The pain is somewhat fixed in the upper back and calves, but is sometimes shooting along the thigh to calves. She is thin, pretty active. Overall pulse rate is normal, not a wiry or soggy or superficial or strong or urgent pain or cold pulse, vessel is thin but I don't think excessively so for her build, I guess Xi Mai is closest. No big difference between left and right except left kid is a little weaker than r/s kid. wave of pulse is smooth through 3 positions. Hrt and Lu are felt best in middle level, not superficial or very deeply. Lv and Spl can be felt in three levels with Spl slightly more forceful than l/s, both most discernable in mid depth. She may have been hungry. Kd can be felt in deep position only and is weaker l/s. I do intend to feel the pulses more closely next time. Nothing stood out. Hope that is some clearer picture Hugo, thanks. --- On Tue, 12/9/08, Hugo Ramiro <subincor > wrote: Hugo Ramiro <subincor > Re: Re: 8 Extra, black tongue, pls help Tuesday, December 9, 2008, 11:57 AM Hi: Can you justify a treatment for internal cold and blood stagnation? What are the patient's pulses like? Hugo ____________ _________ _________ __ Hugo Ramiro http://middlemedici ne.wordpress. com http://www.chinesem edicaltherapies. org ____________ _________ _________ __ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 10, 2008 Report Share Posted December 10, 2008 Many times Lyme lies dormant until significant emotional event triggers it. Some drs. feel the trademark bullseye is actually 2nd occurance and the pt has had it already for a while. She could have had it for a long long time. A couple of years ago President Bush was treated for Lyme after a tick bite and trademark bullseye. If you go back in archives of his speeches when he was Gov of Texas he was very articulate, spoke very well, no weird facial expressions, brain fog, lost train of though or making up silly words . The past 4-8 years he has gotten worse and worse, some speculate that is untreated lyme and co-infection in the brain. She needs a Lyme dr to accurately diagnose it, some will go on symptoms alone if they know what they are doing, diagnosing can be tricky. Clarissa --- On Tue, 12/9/08, mystir <ykcul_ritsym wrote: mystir <ykcul_ritsym Re: Re: 8 Extra, black tongue, pls help Chinese Medicine Tuesday, December 9, 2008, 12:09 PM Thanks. I didn't know that Lyme disease sometimes show on the tongue that way. She said she never had Lyme disease, but it's possible it could have happened much earlier, before it became so accepted and widespread, and been missed. How accurate are tests for Lyme disease when it must have occurred at least ten years ago? And, as below, are intravenous antibiotics the most usual protocol if detected? The presentation seems to have stabilized to a constant, somewhat arthritic, not debilitating state. (For most patients, oral antibiotics (doxycycline or amoxicillin) are prescribed for 21 days. When symptoms indicate nervous system involvement or a severe episode of Lyme disease, intravenous antibiotic (ceftriaxone) may be given for 14-30 days. Some physicians consider intravenous ceftriaxone the best therapy for any late manifestation of disease, but treatments for late Lyme disease are still controversial as of 2003. Corticosteroids (oral) may be prescribed if eye abnormalities occur, but they should not be used without first consulting an eye doctor.) --- On Tue, 12/9/08, Rissa Guest <rissaguest > wrote: Rissa Guest <rissaguest > Re: Re: 8 Extra, black tongue, pls help Tuesday, December 9, 2008, 9:35 AM This might not help you, I can't tell you from a TCM prospective but I can tell you I see a black coating in some of my Lyme patients. Has she been tested for Lyme? Clarissa --- On Tue, 12/9/08, <johnkokko (AT) gmail (DOT) com> wrote: <johnkokko (AT) gmail (DOT) com> Re: Re: 8 Extra, black tongue, pls help Tuesday, December 9, 2008, 2:03 AM Traditionally, black coat (middle of the tongue) can be Da cheng qi tang presentation. .. what are her BM movements? and there's the pepto-bismol side effect... On Mon, Dec 8, 2008 at 9:26 PM, mystir <ykcul_ritsym@ > wrote: > Hi. I am asking for help with diagnosis and treatment of a patient. I > will post their clinical presentation, but since it is extensive, I want to > first just ask; Does anyone have experience with a person whose tongue has a > black patch in the middle of the tongue body? > How can you tell true interior heat from true cold, false heat from false > cold, and how ominous is this presentation? I know the standard diagnostic > TCM associations that indicate the patients subjective experience of lack of > warmth, or heat. > This is the most complicated I have seen, and I want to help. The eyes, > mental state is very clear present and positive, and the continuity of the > mental state is natural, not forced by office visits. I am thinking the > root is in childhood emotional difficulty, which she agrees. Grew up in a > rough town with an abused, negligent mother, had to fight her way( once by > hitting a boy with a rock to keep him from raping her) but unfortunately > continued into a marriage where she felt things where honest, but the man > lied about a vasectomy; she got pregnant and was absolutely against > abortion. I met her son and he is a beautiful boy, has adhd and needs > constant attention. The father's family suffers from this pervasive > disharmony. I have her permission to talk about this to you all. > The patch is firmly rooted, with a very little purple at some of the > border of the apx 1 inch patch. It is in the stomach/spleen position-but > geez, that is only one area of intermittent complaint. Pain in; neck, > shoulder, back, lumbar, legs (along bladder and gall bladder channel > trajectories. ) There are nodules that come and go with massage and > acupuncture, and the patient is very compliant with varies herbal stratagies > we have tried. I feel I am missing something. > She does not use or overuse antibiotics, no excessive alcohol consumption > She is 39 yrs old, strong physique and on the lean side, slightly > assymetrical body. Left leg slightly shorter > than right, left breast slightly smaller than right, with an extra set > of cervical/thoracic ribs. Pain from pressure in the neck, and legs from > compensating when walking etc. Relief from pain with vigorous massage, > acupuncture, heat. Previous and intermittent uveitis. Seems to be > pre-heaven. Pulses are a little weak in both deep kidney positions, more > weak in kd yang pos., slightly weak lung, stomach pulses seem good. No > appearance of cancer or tumors in tests. A little discomfort at menses, she > is another woman who can feel which ovary is active. > Main complaint; pain > If anyone wants more info, pls let me know if you want me to give more > info, as I said the presentation is extensive and illusive, more of a > constituional than > > --- On Fri, 12/5/08, Emmauel Segmen <mrsegmen (AT) comcast (DOT) net<mrsegmen% 40comcast ..net>> > wrote: > Emmauel Segmen <mrsegmen (AT) comcast (DOT) net <mrsegmen%40comcast .net>> > Re: 8 Extra > <Traditional_ Chinese_Medicine %40. com> > Friday, December 5, 2008, 5:15 AM > > Jason R., Jason B., Kokko, Karen and other Responders, > > This is a rich collection of information. Excellent thread in the manner of > a graduate seminar. I think Jason B.'s answer is a good one (thanks) and > appreciate what Jason Robertson has to disclose about the 8-Extra dinner > conversation with Jason B. as well as his description of what is a > " harmonizer " or even an integrator function for the 8 Extraordinary Vessels. > > > My sense is that physiological integration begins only when there is good > differentiation and good function in each organ and organ system, i.e. they > don't impinge on each other. Your thoughts, Jason R., on this topic are > deeper and more considered than my own. Please carry on. I'm very interested > in your clinical analysis. I'm especially interested in how the 8 Extra. > Vess. as harmonizers might free up channels in stasis. > > I don't see any contradiction in other responders presenting classical > differences between Chinese and Japanese styles of treatment that are well > known and established. I've seen experts in tui na and qi gong address this > issue, the former with more immediate results and the latter with more > gradual results. While I agree with you Jason R. that this is complex and > not a linear one to one, Dr. Kang surprises me with how quickly he gets > results. I'll ask Dr. Ping Qi Kang for his thoughts on this. I want also to > hear, Jason R., you thoughts on differentiation of channels as the most > important part of integration from any of these treatment protocols. > > Perhaps, Jason R., that your own normally deep needling technique in > someway accesses what Karen was describing about Jeffrey Yuen's work in this > area. I think that Karen would have a hard time trying to describe Yuen's > profoundly complex needling technique, but I for one would love to hear what > she thinks. Jeffrey's presentation is challenging, high velocity, complex > and assumes a depth of knowledge and facility with Taoist ideas that I do > not have in the realm of Chinese medicine ... though I like pondering his > words. I'd be interested to hear more from Karen if she feels inclined to > say a few more words. > > Respectfully and gratefully, > > Emmanuel Segmen > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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