Guest guest Posted December 6, 2008 Report Share Posted December 6, 2008 This is a great thread. We are giving each other a lot of personal trade and technical info for use in treating people, and throwing a little light in areas that I may have passed over too quickly, or take for granted, from a basics level. Great, thank you, for the posts,(even warm stones, light(laser incl), tuning forks and subliminal music and intention, etc., are very real and appropriate avenues into these channels, and deeper, physiology and individualism of patients.) And the real verification of clinical success will be improvement in the person's condition, subjectively and objectively(tests), not just pulses response, though if the pulse correction was to be truly obvious and consistent upon recovery, it would be a great, great tool. I would like to hear even more clinically, about the pulse experiences of others.We are a little in new territory. Myself, just a begginner, visualize the 8 extra, primarily as wide deep channels, more so than a collection of points along a thin well defined channel line. So therapuetically and for myself it is usually an intentional involvement, a qigong, with where I believe I try to touch and feel them during a 'normal' treatment. They feel kind of dynamic, like clouds or waves, or slow, when I can feel them. The master/couple points make sense experientially clinically, and also from their crossing and overlapping connections to the rest of the system. Put together with what we know of the changes in tissue electrical potentials, attempting to balance out those potentials from a left/right, yin/yang etc. point of view is even more logical. Hence the 'ion cords'. microcurrent, magnets and other electro/electro-acup devises and ion patches. (eg http://www.iabc.readywebsites.com/page/page/623959.htm) Ion cords are just a wire with a simple, passive, semiconductor junction device, called a diode, which allows current flow in only one direction, from the negative side(cathode, to the positive side(anode). The anode must be at a higher positive electrical potential(voltage), then the cathode. And this is what is put to the needle site of excess or trauma, trauma having a more positive potential( and by association or extension, an exces is supossedly more positive). So current or ion flow will proceed until the difference potential between the two sites(master/couple points) becomes so low it will stop, because it cannot overcome the diode's necessary threshold to conduct. The Manaka ion cords i measured, have a silicon diodes that have a conductive breakover threshold of between .5 and.7volts. When I make cords, I use germanium diodes that have a lower threshold voltage of .2 volts, so the two points will continue to conduct to come to a closer or smaller difference. Let me say it another way. I made cords with a selenium diodes with a breakover voltage of .2 volts. This means, for equalizing bioelectric potentials, (more positive is injury=more damage. going to less positive =more healing), equalizing the potentials is important. It follows the logic of taking from the excess to raise the deficient. Clincally, this is not limited to the 8 extra methodolgy, and now the question comes up, why not just use a pure wire? The diode is there to 'steer' the flow, or reduce the positive potential. The direction of the current or 'ion' flow itself, and what exactly it is, is more theoretical. Convention says the material of the flow is from negative to positive. I think in biological systems, it's more complex. I have an interseting case coming up, where I plan to use the 8 extra methods. If ok, I'd like to share this with the group, for feedback and advice. Thanks so much. --- On Fri, 12/5/08, flyingstarsfengshui <fiveshen wrote: flyingstarsfengshui <fiveshen Re: 8 Extra Chinese Medicine Friday, December 5, 2008, 3:12 PM Hi John: Some of your questions require alot of time, really learning the channel system as a whole. I will comment on a few of them now. > 1. LV 3 and SP 10... you said they're unlisted points on extra channels.. > which ones?... which school? ************ ********* ********* ********* ** I suggest you study the pathway flow first, not points, this is the greatest mistake in the educational process in my view. And one should study the Chong first, and it has five branches, it creates all the other channels, it critical to see this, tracing the chong from Qi Chong/St 30 down the legs you can see it passes Sp 10, Liv3 and Sp 1, all so blood related, Ching sea of Blood. Channels originate with pathways, not points. Points are arbitrarily chosen. > 2. Going back to Jason B.'s questions... just because you needle all of > these points that compose of an extraordinary channel, > how do you really know that you're accessing an extraordinary channel and > not just needling points on a few different primary channels? What kind of > feedback mechanism are you using? ************ ********* ********* ****** The only thing that matters is the clinical result. EV should be used for specific conditions, their condition determines whether one should use them, so when using them one knows the effectiveness based on the feedback of your patients and their condition, which is the only real test. Primary channels treat Primary Channels and organ conditions, Luo Channels treat Luo conditions, Sinew, Divergent and EV channels treat their corresponding conditions. 3. In Nei gong, you use the Yi to be attentive to the channel, not specific > points.... I'm curious about the beginning and ending of the extra > channels. The Ren and Du compose of the microcosmic orbit, which seems > logical... originating in the lower abdomen and exiting out of Ren 1. The > Chong originates in the same area and exits out of either Ren 1 or ST 30 and > is very similar to the pathway of the Aorta following up the KD channel. ************ ********* *** I suggest you llok at Chong again, it creates Ren, Du, Dai and all, they are not separate. In my view Jacobs book is great, but assumes you know about these channels systems and summarizes them, based on Jeffrey Yuen's teachings, which you can not slice and dice out, really need to learn them well, then those summary points make sense. There are lots of needling methods, but the key is understanding the theory to guide your decisions. Its a deep study of our medicine. IMHO the info on secondary vessels in the common texts it pitiful, its really a shame this has occurred. You other questions would take to long to respond. regards, david www.healingqi. com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 6, 2008 Report Share Posted December 6, 2008 David, Thanks for sharing your experience. Kiiko wrote in the North American Journal of Oriental Medicine that Western medicine is based on science, while Asian medicine is based on experience. She wrote a very detailed analysis of the Chong vessel pathway in " Extraordinary Vessels " pgs 30-39, from direct quotes of the Su wen, Ling shu, Wang shu he, Nan jing, Lei jing, Qi jing ba mai kao and Zhen jiu ju ying. Interesting thing is that the Chong pathway has been debated on ever since the Su wen and Ling shu demarcated it's territory. 2 points of contention are 1. the trajectories... the Ling shu says that the Chong arises only from the right side of the surface of the abdomen in one verse. The Su wen states that the pathway arises close to the Kidney channel on both sides of the umbilicus. Some texts show the Chong mai arise up and around the mouth and to the eyes. Others stop at the throat. Some texts describe the branch that arises either in front of the spine or inside of the spine. 2. the origin of the Chong mai being Ren 1 (Li Shi-Zhen, Gao Wu) or the area " below the kidneys " or " inside the womb " (Ling shu) or ST 30 (Qi chong) or " Qijie " , which is still being debated on it's actual identity. I agree that we should learn the pathways first and then fill in the dots afterwards. Since you've pointed out LV 3, SP 1 and SP 10, which are not stated in the classics or modern texts as Chong channel points, but reside on the pathway, I've been thinking of how this could work: LV 3 is called " Tai Chong " (Great Rushing) and is situated between the first and second toes, the Ling shu trajectory. SP 1 is a major blood point, as well as Sp 10, " Xue hai " , Sea of Blood. So, I can see those relations... The Ling shu and Lei jing state that the Chong passes to the 3 foot yin channels, which gives us a general idea that the Chong pathway on the legs runs widely through the medial aspect of the leg, ankle and inner foot. Another interesting connection is SP 12, " Chong Men " , which is only 1.5 cun lateral to ST 30 " Qi Chong " . Although it's not listed as a Chong point, but a Yin-wei point, the name hints that it could have a Chong pathway resonance as well. SP 12 is located over the Femoral artery, while ST 30 is in on top of the two common iliac arteries, branching off of the aorta. Kiiko hypothesizes that the femoral arteries that branch off into smaller arteries down the leg could be seen as running along the Ling Shu's leg trajectory of the Chong vessel... Here's a drawing: http://gensurg.co.uk/ic%20-%20artery%20anatomy.htm The idea that the Chong is the sea of the 12 channels and " creates " all of the other channels, including the extraordinary vessels is one that I'll have to revisit J. Yuen's transcripts to comprehend. Warm regards, K. On Fri, Dec 5, 2008 at 12:12 PM, flyingstarsfengshui <fiveshenwrote: > Hi John: > > Some of your questions require alot of time, really learning the > channel system as a whole. I will comment on a few of them now. > > > > 1. LV 3 and SP 10... you said they're unlisted points on extra > channels.. > > which ones?... which school? > ***************************************** > I suggest you study the pathway flow first, not points, this is the > greatest mistake in the educational process in my view. > > And one should study the Chong first, and it has five branches, it > creates all the other channels, it critical to see this, tracing the > chong from Qi Chong/St 30 down the legs you can see it passes Sp 10, > Liv3 and Sp 1, all so blood related, Ching sea of Blood. > > Channels originate with pathways, not points. Points are arbitrarily > chosen. > > > 2. Going back to Jason B.'s questions... just because you needle > all of > these points that compose of an extraordinary channel, > > how do you really know that you're accessing an extraordinary > channel and > not just needling points on a few different primary > channels? What kind of > feedback mechanism are you using? > ************************************ > The only thing that matters is the clinical result. EV should be used > for specific conditions, their condition determines whether one should > use them, so when using them one knows the effectiveness based on the > feedback of your patients and their condition, which is the only real > test. Primary channels treat Primary Channels and organ conditions, > Luo Channels treat Luo conditions, Sinew, Divergent and EV channels > treat their corresponding conditions. > > 3. In Nei gong, you use the Yi to be attentive to the channel, not > specific > points.... I'm curious about the beginning and ending of > the extra > channels. The Ren and Du compose of the microcosmic > orbit, which seems > logical... originating in the lower abdomen and > exiting out of Ren 1. The > Chong originates in the same area and > exits out of either Ren 1 or ST 30 and > is very similar to the > pathway of the Aorta following up the KD channel. > ************************ > I suggest you llok at Chong again, it creates Ren, Du, Dai and all, > they are not separate. > > In my view Jacobs book is great, but assumes you know about these > channels systems and summarizes them, based on Jeffrey Yuen's > teachings, which you can not slice and dice out, really need to learn > them well, then those summary points make sense. There are lots of > needling methods, but the key is understanding the theory to guide > your decisions. Its a deep study of our medicine. IMHO the info on > secondary vessels in the common texts it pitiful, its really a shame > this has occurred. > > You other questions would take to long to respond. > > regards, > > david > www.healingqi.com > > > -- aka Mu bong Lim Father of Bhakti The Four Reliances: Do not rely upon the individual, but rely upon the teaching. As far as teachings go, do not rely upon the words alone, but rely upon the meaning that underlies them. Regarding the meaning, do not rely upon the provisional meaning alone, but rely upon the definitive meaning. And regarding the definitive meaning, do not rely upon ordinary consciousness, but rely upon wisdom awareness. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 9, 2008 Report Share Posted December 9, 2008 Hi. Doctor, I did not see your post until today. I am hoping you could say more about your way of diagnosis and treatment. This is very different to me, and made me want to know more. Thank you. --- On Wed, 12/3/08, dr_namnguyen58 <dr_namnguyen58 wrote: dr_namnguyen58 <dr_namnguyen58 Re: 8 Extra Chinese Medicine Wednesday, December 3, 2008, 10:14 AM Hi everybody, I always use extra channels as my first treatment in most illnesses. However, the point I choose usually is one, not in pair. A point is chosen depend upon the pulse conditions. If the pulse is weak, I use tonification; strong or full for sedation. If the pulse is floating, superficial needling must follow; deep pulse for deep insertion and retaining a little longer_ 2 - 3 minutes. There are 3 levels of pulses He-Lu ( Upper ) ; Liv-Sp ( Mi ), Kid-Ub / Peri ( Lower ). These levels will help me to determine which point ( hand-arm or foot-leg ) is for the treatment. Let's say the Lu is strong, full and floating, I expect a headache or vertigo or a dizziness in the upper part of the body, chest pain or discomfort or a cough, sore throat. Therefore, I choose the lower extremity ( distant point ); for severe, sedation ( strong, full condition ); fast insertion and shallow needling ( floating pulse ). If not severe, I will choose a hand point. Last, I will compare the pulses of two hands if the left hand is weaker, I will choose a right body point. Another way of choosing a point, assuming I pick K7 or K3 for lung symptoms. I will press two points lightly simultaneously and deeper and stronger as needed while I am asking the patient for an input which one is more sensitive. I will needle that point. If the diagnosis is precise, I expect the headache, dizziness or vertigo or any other problems should be diminished or vanished in seconds, not minutes..... ....... To verify this, we must ask our patient for an input. But subsiding does not mean its problem disappear, ask our patient to turn his head side to side, up and down a few times to be sure there is no recurrent at that time. One thing for sure, if our patient has weak pulses, do not expect instant result because he or she does not have enough energy ( Qi ) for instant result or healing..... ..... Wait or prescribe herbal formulas for tonification, then recheck for pulse until it is full. Thanks to all! This is my experience.. ...... If the above method does not help, I seek other advice...... .. Good luck to you all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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