Guest guest Posted December 2, 2008 Report Share Posted December 2, 2008 I was wondering if others could share what they have been taught (or discovered) in regard to accessing the 8 extra meridians with acupuncture. For example, what techniques do you specifically use that differentiates the stimulation of the Spleen channel vs. the chong. Consequently how do you know that you have accessed one versus the other (after you needle)? Or does it even matter. I know that some people have special techniques they claim to differentiate these and if it is not too much trouble I would love to hear the differing opinions out there. I am not overly concerned about the quality of the source, but it would be helpful if you could just mention where the idea came from (e.g. this or that teacher, some book, personal experience) etc. Thanks, - <http://maps./py/maps.py?Pyt=Tmap & addr=2600+30th+Street%2C+Suite+20 0 & csz=Boulder%2C+Co & country=us> 2600 30th Street, Suite 200 Boulder, Co 80301 <http://www.plaxo.com/signature?src=client_sig_212_1_simple_sig & lang=en> Want a signature like this? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 2, 2008 Report Share Posted December 2, 2008 Jason - I recommend you get a copy of Jeffrey Yuen's lecture on the 8 Extraordinary Meridians (from New England School of Acupuncture). Very good, very in depth, lots of history on use. Jeffrey says the 8 Extras are like oceans (as opposed to rivers/Primaries), so needling is deeper (thus 'telling' the point used that it is accessing an 8 Extra rather than a primary), and you have to shake the needle to stir the waters, as it were. He also says that, because they are oceans, it takes longer for effect, and effects are more subtle. There's a lot in the lecture about using these channels as a reflection of life progression. Very interesting stuff. Karen Karen R Adams, Lic Ac, Dipl Ac 296 Avenue A Turners Falls, MA 01376 413-768-8333 wrote: > I was wondering if others could share what they have been taught (or > discovered) in regard to accessing the 8 extra meridians with acupuncture. > For example, what techniques do you specifically use that > differentiates the > stimulation of the Spleen channel vs. the chong. Consequently how do you > know that you have accessed one versus the other (after you needle)? > Or does > it even matter. I know that some people have special techniques they claim > to differentiate these and if it is not too much trouble I would love to > hear the differing opinions out there. I am not overly concerned about the > quality of the source, but it would be helpful if you could just mention > where the idea came from (e.g. this or that teacher, some book, personal > experience) etc. > > Thanks, > > - > > > > > <http://maps./py/maps.py?Pyt=Tmap & addr=2600+30th+Street%2C+Suite+20 > <http://maps./py/maps.py?Pyt=Tmap & addr=2600+30th+Street%2C+Suite+20> > 0 & csz=Boulder%2C+Co & country=us> 2600 30th Street, Suite 200 > Boulder, Co > 80301 > > > > <http://www.plaxo.com/signature?src=client_sig_212_1_simple_sig & lang=en > <http://www.plaxo.com/signature?src=client_sig_212_1_simple_sig & lang=en>> > Want a signature like this? > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 2, 2008 Report Share Posted December 2, 2008 Jason, A short note as I'm in NY until tonight when I return home. I use the extraordinary vessels unilaterally, on opposite limbs/sides, then choose points on the specific extraordinary vessel channels on the trunk. I tend to needle more lightly when doing extraordinary vessel treatments. I initially learned my approach from Kiiko Matsumoto some 23 years ago, updated with readings from various texts over the years, from Larre/de la Vallee to classical sources such as the Nan Jing, so my style has evolved over time. . . ---- wrote: > I was wondering if others could share what they have been taught (or > discovered) in regard to accessing the 8 extra meridians with acupuncture. > For example, what techniques do you specifically use that differentiates the > stimulation of the Spleen channel vs. the chong. Consequently how do you > know that you have accessed one versus the other (after you needle)? Or does > it even matter. I know that some people have special techniques they claim > to differentiate these and if it is not too much trouble I would love to > hear the differing opinions out there. I am not overly concerned about the > quality of the source, but it would be helpful if you could just mention > where the idea came from (e.g. this or that teacher, some book, personal > experience) etc. > > > > Thanks, > > > > - > > > > <http://maps./py/maps.py?Pyt=Tmap & addr=2600+30th+Street%2C+Suite+20 > 0 & csz=Boulder%2C+Co & country=us> 2600 30th Street, Suite 200 > Boulder, Co > 80301 > > > > > > <http://www.plaxo.com/signature?src=client_sig_212_1_simple_sig & lang=en> > Want a signature like this? > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 3, 2008 Report Share Posted December 3, 2008 Nguyen Van Nghi lectured on the Chong channel energetics and said that if you needle the points on the KD abdominal points deeper, you contact the Chong channel, while the KD channel runs more superficially. Kiiko Matsumoto also has a good book on the 8 extraordinary vessels. K. On Tue, Dec 2, 2008 at 8:24 AM, Karen Adams <kradams1 wrote: > Jason - I recommend you get a copy of Jeffrey Yuen's lecture on the 8 > Extraordinary Meridians (from New England School of Acupuncture). Very > good, very in depth, lots of history on use. Jeffrey says the 8 Extras > are like oceans (as opposed to rivers/Primaries), so needling is deeper > (thus 'telling' the point used that it is accessing an 8 Extra rather > than a primary), and you have to shake the needle to stir the waters, as > it were. He also says that, because they are oceans, it takes longer > for effect, and effects are more subtle. > > There's a lot in the lecture about using these channels as a reflection > of life progression. Very interesting stuff. > Karen > > Karen R Adams, > Lic Ac, Dipl Ac > 296 Avenue A > Turners Falls, MA 01376 > 413-768-8333 > > > wrote: > > > I was wondering if others could share what they have been taught (or > > discovered) in regard to accessing the 8 extra meridians with > acupuncture. > > For example, what techniques do you specifically use that > > differentiates the > > stimulation of the Spleen channel vs. the chong. Consequently how do you > > know that you have accessed one versus the other (after you needle)? > > Or does > > it even matter. I know that some people have special techniques they > claim > > to differentiate these and if it is not too much trouble I would love to > > hear the differing opinions out there. I am not overly concerned about > the > > quality of the source, but it would be helpful if you could just mention > > where the idea came from (e.g. this or that teacher, some book, personal > > experience) etc. > > > > Thanks, > > > > - > > > > > > > > > > < > http://maps./py/maps.py?Pyt=Tmap & addr=2600+30th+Street%2C+Suite+20 > > < > http://maps./py/maps.py?Pyt=Tmap & addr=2600+30th+Street%2C+Suite+20 > > > > 0 & csz=Boulder%2C+Co & country=us> 2600 30th Street, Suite 200 > > Boulder, Co > > 80301 > > > > > > > > <http://www.plaxo.com/signature?src=client_sig_212_1_simple_sig & lang=en > > <http://www.plaxo.com/signature?src=client_sig_212_1_simple_sig & lang=en > >> > > Want a signature like this? > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 3, 2008 Report Share Posted December 3, 2008 Z’ev and Group, Thanks… When you have a minute I would love to hear what your style is. I am curious about what specific needling techniques you (or others) are using that “guarantees†that you are accessing the 8 extras. Merely needling points (as Karen) stated (via J. Yuen) seems unlikely to be enough. So we have Z’ev (and many others) who say one must needle superficial. J. Yuen et al. saying one must needle deep. I know there are many sources out there / books on 8 extras, but I am more interested in what YOU (the group) are doing in the clinic and how you evaluate the effects and think about the issues that should be apparent once we start getting some opinions. So do we believe that just needling unilateral (i.e. master – couple) somehow guarantees the access of the 8 extra’s (versus just needling the channel)? This seems unlikely for a many of reasons, especially since many people needle both master and couple bilaterally and also say they are accessing the 8 extras. Some just needle the master points. Furthermore, there are practitioners that also say that master and couple mean nothing and a point prescription such as Lv3 (unilateral) and Ren 17 is a chong mai treatment. I ask these same people the same question. How do you know you are accessing the 8 extras and not just the Liver channel and ren? Do we believe someone that says we just must needle deep and this somehow guarantees us access? What about people that always needle deep? I want to hear the stories of how people conceptualize and make sense of these issues or more specifically: 1) specific techniques that people use in their clinic. (the system) 2) How you evaluate (the system) - if your needling worked (or did not work), meaning did you really hit the 8 extra or just the channel. Or do people just believe that whatever system they were taught will magically work if they follow the steps. So far I have heard only a criteria of depth and something about shaking the needle. -Jason Chinese Medicine Chinese Medicine On Behalf Of zrosenbe Tuesday, December 02, 2008 9:31 AM Chinese Medicine Cc: Re: 8 Extra Jason, A short note as I'm in NY until tonight when I return home. I use the extraordinary vessels unilaterally, on opposite limbs/sides, then choose points on the specific extraordinary vessel channels on the trunk. I tend to needle more lightly when doing extraordinary vessel treatments. I initially learned my approach from Kiiko Matsumoto some 23 years ago, updated with readings from various texts over the years, from Larre/de la Vallee to classical sources such as the Nan Jing, so my style has evolved over time. . . ---- < <%40Chinese Medicine> > wrote: > I was wondering if others could share what they have been taught (or > discovered) in regard to accessing the 8 extra meridians with acupuncture. > For example, what techniques do you specifically use that differentiates the > stimulation of the Spleen channel vs. the chong. Consequently how do you > know that you have accessed one versus the other (after you needle)? Or does > it even matter. I know that some people have special techniques they claim > to differentiate these and if it is not too much trouble I would love to > hear the differing opinions out there. I am not overly concerned about the > quality of the source, but it would be helpful if you could just mention > where the idea came from (e.g. this or that teacher, some book, personal > experience) etc. > > > > Thanks, > > > > - > > > > <http://maps./py/maps.py?Pyt=Tmap <http://maps./py/maps.py?Pyt=Tmap & addr=2600+30th+Street%2C+Suite+20> & addr=2600+30th+Street%2C+Suite+20 > 0 & csz=Boulder%2C+Co & country=us> 2600 30th Street, Suite 200 > Boulder, Co > 80301 > > > > > > <http://www.plaxo.com/signature?src=client_sig_212_1_simple_sig <http://www.plaxo.com/signature?src=client_sig_212_1_simple_sig & lang=en> & lang=en> > Want a signature like this? > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 3, 2008 Report Share Posted December 3, 2008 Karen, Thanks. I unfortunately have never had much luck resonating with Yuen's work or at least getting to the clinical essence of what he is saying. However I am open to what he says. I think I heard his 8 extra lecture once. However, would you mind explaining what your take of his system is and how you use it in the clinic? So you needle deeper and shake the needle and this accesses the 8 extras? Anything else? How do you or he evaluate if the needling actually hit the 8 extra versus the channel? Thanks, -Jason Chinese Medicine Chinese Medicine On Behalf Of Karen Adams Tuesday, December 02, 2008 9:24 AM Chinese Medicine Re: 8 Extra Jason - I recommend you get a copy of Jeffrey Yuen's lecture on the 8 Extraordinary Meridians (from New England School of Acupuncture). Very good, very in depth, lots of history on use. Jeffrey says the 8 Extras are like oceans (as opposed to rivers/Primaries), so needling is deeper (thus 'telling' the point used that it is accessing an 8 Extra rather than a primary), and you have to shake the needle to stir the waters, as it were. He also says that, because they are oceans, it takes longer for effect, and effects are more subtle. There's a lot in the lecture about using these channels as a reflection of life progression. Very interesting stuff. Karen Karen R Adams, Lic Ac, Dipl Ac 296 Avenue A Turners Falls, MA 01376 413-768-8333 wrote: > I was wondering if others could share what they have been taught (or > discovered) in regard to accessing the 8 extra meridians with acupuncture. > For example, what techniques do you specifically use that > differentiates the > stimulation of the Spleen channel vs. the chong. Consequently how do you > know that you have accessed one versus the other (after you needle)? > Or does > it even matter. I know that some people have special techniques they claim > to differentiate these and if it is not too much trouble I would love to > hear the differing opinions out there. I am not overly concerned about the > quality of the source, but it would be helpful if you could just mention > where the idea came from (e.g. this or that teacher, some book, personal > experience) etc. > > Thanks, > > - > > > > > <http://maps./py/maps.py?Pyt=Tmap <http://maps./py/maps.py?Pyt=Tmap & addr=2600+30th+Street%2C+Suite+20 > & addr=2600+30th+Street%2C+Suite+20 > <http://maps./py/maps.py?Pyt=Tmap <http://maps./py/maps.py?Pyt=Tmap & addr=2600+30th+Street%2C+Suite+20 > & addr=2600+30th+Street%2C+Suite+20> > 0 & csz=Boulder%2C+Co & country=us> 2600 30th Street, Suite 200 > Boulder, Co > 80301 > > > > <http://www.plaxo.com/signature?src=client_sig_212_1_simple_sig <http://www.plaxo.com/signature?src=client_sig_212_1_simple_sig & lang=en> & lang=en > <http://www.plaxo.com/signature?src=client_sig_212_1_simple_sig <http://www.plaxo.com/signature?src=client_sig_212_1_simple_sig & lang=en> & lang=en>> > Want a signature like this? > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 3, 2008 Report Share Posted December 3, 2008 Hi Jason: Your asking a big question. My experience is a key is selecting a variety of points on an eight extra channel, to stimulate the channel, to activate its energetics, one point is not enough. This is what sends a clear message that its an EV tx, not primary channel tx. Pick points on the channel, not just the master points, if you want to add them fine, but channel points is the key. And you can follow the pathway and select areas along it, not the " formal points " , for example, Tai Chong, Liver 3 is on the pathway, Spleen 10/Xue Hai is on the pathway but not listed. In Nei Gong, we move our Yi/Intention through all these channels, not specific points. Hope this helps. David Chinese Medicine , " " wrote: > > Karen, > > > > Thanks. I unfortunately have never had much luck resonating with Yuen's work > or at least getting to the clinical essence of what he is saying. However I > am open to what he says. I think I heard his 8 extra lecture once. However, > would you mind explaining what your take of his system is and how you use it > in the clinic? So you needle deeper and shake the needle and this accesses > the 8 extras? Anything else? How do you or he evaluate if the needling > actually hit the 8 extra versus the channel? > > > > Thanks, > > -Jason > > > > Chinese Medicine > Chinese Medicine On Behalf Of Karen > Adams > Tuesday, December 02, 2008 9:24 AM > Chinese Medicine > Re: 8 Extra > > > > Jason - I recommend you get a copy of Jeffrey Yuen's lecture on the 8 > Extraordinary Meridians (from New England School of Acupuncture). Very > good, very in depth, lots of history on use. Jeffrey says the 8 Extras > are like oceans (as opposed to rivers/Primaries), so needling is deeper > (thus 'telling' the point used that it is accessing an 8 Extra rather > than a primary), and you have to shake the needle to stir the waters, as > it were. He also says that, because they are oceans, it takes longer > for effect, and effects are more subtle. > > There's a lot in the lecture about using these channels as a reflection > of life progression. Very interesting stuff. > Karen > > Karen R Adams, > Lic Ac, Dipl Ac > 296 Avenue A > Turners Falls, MA 01376 > 413-768-8333 > > wrote: > > > I was wondering if others could share what they have been taught (or > > discovered) in regard to accessing the 8 extra meridians with acupuncture. > > For example, what techniques do you specifically use that > > differentiates the > > stimulation of the Spleen channel vs. the chong. Consequently how do you > > know that you have accessed one versus the other (after you needle)? > > Or does > > it even matter. I know that some people have special techniques they claim > > to differentiate these and if it is not too much trouble I would love to > > hear the differing opinions out there. I am not overly concerned about the > > quality of the source, but it would be helpful if you could just mention > > where the idea came from (e.g. this or that teacher, some book, personal > > experience) etc. > > > > Thanks, > > > > - > > > > > > > > > > <http://maps./py/maps.py?Pyt=Tmap > <http://maps./py/maps.py?Pyt=Tmap & addr=2600+30th+Street%2C+Suite+20 > > & addr=2600+30th+Street%2C+Suite+20 > > <http://maps./py/maps.py?Pyt=Tmap > <http://maps./py/maps.py?Pyt=Tmap & addr=2600+30th+Street%2C+Suite+20 > > & addr=2600+30th+Street%2C+Suite+20> > > 0 & csz=Boulder%2C+Co & country=us> 2600 30th Street, Suite 200 > > Boulder, Co > > 80301 > > > > > > > > <http://www.plaxo.com/signature?src=client_sig_212_1_simple_sig > <http://www.plaxo.com/signature?src=client_sig_212_1_simple_sig & lang=en> > & lang=en > > <http://www.plaxo.com/signature?src=client_sig_212_1_simple_sig > <http://www.plaxo.com/signature?src=client_sig_212_1_simple_sig & lang=en> > & lang=en>> > > Want a signature like this? > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 3, 2008 Report Share Posted December 3, 2008 Hi Jason - David answered the question much better than I could. You establish a tx as 8 Extra by the selection and use of points along that particular channel. Intention is also important. Karen wrote: > Karen, > > Thanks. I unfortunately have never had much luck resonating with > Yuen's work > or at least getting to the clinical essence of what he is saying. > However I > am open to what he says. I think I heard his 8 extra lecture once. > However, > would you mind explaining what your take of his system is and how you > use it > in the clinic? So you needle deeper and shake the needle and this accesses > the 8 extras? Anything else? How do you or he evaluate if the needling > actually hit the 8 extra versus the channel? > > Thanks, > > -Jason > > Chinese Medicine > <Chinese Medicine%40> > [Chinese Medicine > <Chinese Medicine%40>] On Behalf Of > Karen > Adams > Tuesday, December 02, 2008 9:24 AM > Chinese Medicine > <Chinese Medicine%40> > Re: 8 Extra > > Jason - I recommend you get a copy of Jeffrey Yuen's lecture on the 8 > Extraordinary Meridians (from New England School of Acupuncture). Very > good, very in depth, lots of history on use. Jeffrey says the 8 Extras > are like oceans (as opposed to rivers/Primaries), so needling is deeper > (thus 'telling' the point used that it is accessing an 8 Extra rather > than a primary), and you have to shake the needle to stir the waters, as > it were. He also says that, because they are oceans, it takes longer > for effect, and effects are more subtle. > > There's a lot in the lecture about using these channels as a reflection > of life progression. Very interesting stuff. > Karen > > Karen R Adams, > Lic Ac, Dipl Ac > 296 Avenue A > Turners Falls, MA 01376 > 413-768-8333 > > wrote: > > > I was wondering if others could share what they have been taught (or > > discovered) in regard to accessing the 8 extra meridians with > acupuncture. > > For example, what techniques do you specifically use that > > differentiates the > > stimulation of the Spleen channel vs. the chong. Consequently how do you > > know that you have accessed one versus the other (after you needle)? > > Or does > > it even matter. I know that some people have special techniques they > claim > > to differentiate these and if it is not too much trouble I would love to > > hear the differing opinions out there. I am not overly concerned > about the > > quality of the source, but it would be helpful if you could just mention > > where the idea came from (e.g. this or that teacher, some book, personal > > experience) etc. > > > > Thanks, > > > > - > > > > > > > > > > <http://maps./py/maps.py?Pyt=Tmap > <http://maps./py/maps.py?Pyt=Tmap> > <http://maps./py/maps.py?Pyt=Tmap & addr=2600+30th+Street%2C+Suite+20 > <http://maps./py/maps.py?Pyt=Tmap & addr=2600+30th+Street%2C+Suite+20> > > & addr=2600+30th+Street%2C+Suite+20 > > <http://maps./py/maps.py?Pyt=Tmap > <http://maps./py/maps.py?Pyt=Tmap> > <http://maps./py/maps.py?Pyt=Tmap & addr=2600+30th+Street%2C+Suite+20 > <http://maps./py/maps.py?Pyt=Tmap & addr=2600+30th+Street%2C+Suite+20> > > & addr=2600+30th+Street%2C+Suite+20> > > 0 & csz=Boulder%2C+Co & country=us> 2600 30th Street, Suite 200 > > Boulder, Co > > 80301 > > > > > > > > <http://www.plaxo.com/signature?src=client_sig_212_1_simple_sig > <http://www.plaxo.com/signature?src=client_sig_212_1_simple_sig> > <http://www.plaxo.com/signature?src=client_sig_212_1_simple_sig & lang=en > <http://www.plaxo.com/signature?src=client_sig_212_1_simple_sig & lang=en>> > & lang=en > > <http://www.plaxo.com/signature?src=client_sig_212_1_simple_sig > <http://www.plaxo.com/signature?src=client_sig_212_1_simple_sig> > <http://www.plaxo.com/signature?src=client_sig_212_1_simple_sig & lang=en > <http://www.plaxo.com/signature?src=client_sig_212_1_simple_sig & lang=en>> > & lang=en>> > > Want a signature like this? > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 3, 2008 Report Share Posted December 3, 2008 Hi Jason - David answered the question much better than I could. You establish a tx as 8 Extra by the selection and use of points along that particular channel. Intention is also important. Karen wrote: > Karen, > > Thanks. I unfortunately have never had much luck resonating with > Yuen's work > or at least getting to the clinical essence of what he is saying. > However I > am open to what he says. I think I heard his 8 extra lecture once. > However, > would you mind explaining what your take of his system is and how you > use it > in the clinic? So you needle deeper and shake the needle and this accesses > the 8 extras? Anything else? How do you or he evaluate if the needling > actually hit the 8 extra versus the channel? > > Thanks, > > -Jason > > Chinese Medicine > <Chinese Medicine%40> > [Chinese Medicine > <Chinese Medicine%40>] On Behalf Of > Karen > Adams > Tuesday, December 02, 2008 9:24 AM > Chinese Medicine > <Chinese Medicine%40> > Re: 8 Extra > > Jason - I recommend you get a copy of Jeffrey Yuen's lecture on the 8 > Extraordinary Meridians (from New England School of Acupuncture). Very > good, very in depth, lots of history on use. Jeffrey says the 8 Extras > are like oceans (as opposed to rivers/Primaries), so needling is deeper > (thus 'telling' the point used that it is accessing an 8 Extra rather > than a primary), and you have to shake the needle to stir the waters, as > it were. He also says that, because they are oceans, it takes longer > for effect, and effects are more subtle. > > There's a lot in the lecture about using these channels as a reflection > of life progression. Very interesting stuff. > Karen > > Karen R Adams, > Lic Ac, Dipl Ac > 296 Avenue A > Turners Falls, MA 01376 > 413-768-8333 > > wrote: > > > I was wondering if others could share what they have been taught (or > > discovered) in regard to accessing the 8 extra meridians with > acupuncture. > > For example, what techniques do you specifically use that > > differentiates the > > stimulation of the Spleen channel vs. the chong. Consequently how do you > > know that you have accessed one versus the other (after you needle)? > > Or does > > it even matter. I know that some people have special techniques they > claim > > to differentiate these and if it is not too much trouble I would love to > > hear the differing opinions out there. I am not overly concerned > about the > > quality of the source, but it would be helpful if you could just mention > > where the idea came from (e.g. this or that teacher, some book, personal > > experience) etc. > > > > Thanks, > > > > - > > > > > > > > > > <http://maps./py/maps.py?Pyt=Tmap > <http://maps./py/maps.py?Pyt=Tmap> > <http://maps./py/maps.py?Pyt=Tmap & addr=2600+30th+Street%2C+Suite+20 > <http://maps./py/maps.py?Pyt=Tmap & addr=2600+30th+Street%2C+Suite+20> > > & addr=2600+30th+Street%2C+Suite+20 > > <http://maps./py/maps.py?Pyt=Tmap > <http://maps./py/maps.py?Pyt=Tmap> > <http://maps./py/maps.py?Pyt=Tmap & addr=2600+30th+Street%2C+Suite+20 > <http://maps./py/maps.py?Pyt=Tmap & addr=2600+30th+Street%2C+Suite+20> > > & addr=2600+30th+Street%2C+Suite+20> > > 0 & csz=Boulder%2C+Co & country=us> 2600 30th Street, Suite 200 > > Boulder, Co > > 80301 > > > > > > > > <http://www.plaxo.com/signature?src=client_sig_212_1_simple_sig > <http://www.plaxo.com/signature?src=client_sig_212_1_simple_sig> > <http://www.plaxo.com/signature?src=client_sig_212_1_simple_sig & lang=en > <http://www.plaxo.com/signature?src=client_sig_212_1_simple_sig & lang=en>> > & lang=en > > <http://www.plaxo.com/signature?src=client_sig_212_1_simple_sig > <http://www.plaxo.com/signature?src=client_sig_212_1_simple_sig> > <http://www.plaxo.com/signature?src=client_sig_212_1_simple_sig & lang=en > <http://www.plaxo.com/signature?src=client_sig_212_1_simple_sig & lang=en>> > & lang=en>> > > Want a signature like this? > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 3, 2008 Report Share Posted December 3, 2008 Hello Jason, In addition to what others have posted (Yuen, Matsumoto, etc.), I've put together a section discussing the use of the extraordinary vessels from a Japanese Acupuncture perspective on my website. From my schooling and experience I've found the Japanese use of the extraordinary vessels is extensive and clear. Other resources would be the text " Extraordinary Vessels " by Matsumoto and Birch and the text " Hara Diagnosis " by Birch. Even if you don't practice Japanese acupuncture, per se, the protocols listed on the site and the resources I've recommended will still be valuable. The referenced links are: Japanese Extraordinary Vessel Ion Cord Treatment Theory and Protocols: http://www.yinyanghouse.com/theory/japanese/extraordinary_vessel_treatment_proto\ col Japanese Acupuncture Resources: http://www.yinyanghouse.com/research/japanese_acupuncture_resources Main Japanese Section: http://www.yinyanghouse.com/theory/japanese/acupuncture_information I hope you find the information valuable. Cheers, -Chad. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 3, 2008 Report Share Posted December 3, 2008 Hi everybody, I always use extra channels as my first treatment in most illnesses. However, the point I choose usually is one, not in pair. A point is chosen depend upon the pulse conditions. If the pulse is weak, I use tonification; strong or full for sedation. If the pulse is floating, superficial needling must follow; deep pulse for deep insertion and retaining a little longer_ 2 - 3 minutes. There are 3 levels of pulses He-Lu ( Upper ) ; Liv-Sp ( Mi ), Kid-Ub / Peri ( Lower ). These levels will help me to determine which point ( hand-arm or foot-leg ) is for the treatment. Let's say the Lu is strong, full and floating, I expect a headache or vertigo or a dizziness in the upper part of the body, chest pain or discomfort or a cough, sore throat. Therefore, I choose the lower extremity ( distant point ); for severe, sedation ( strong, full condition ); fast insertion and shallow needling ( floating pulse ). If not severe, I will choose a hand point. Last, I will compare the pulses of two hands if the left hand is weaker, I will choose a right body point. Another way of choosing a point, assuming I pick K7 or K3 for lung symptoms. I will press two points lightly simultaneously and deeper and stronger as needed while I am asking the patient for an input which one is more sensitive. I will needle that point. If the diagnosis is precise, I expect the headache, dizziness or vertigo or any other problems should be diminished or vanished in seconds, not minutes............ To verify this, we must ask our patient for an input. But subsiding does not mean its problem disappear, ask our patient to turn his head side to side, up and down a few times to be sure there is no recurrent at that time. One thing for sure, if our patient has weak pulses, do not expect instant result because he or she does not have enough energy ( Qi ) for instant result or healing.......... Wait or prescribe herbal formulas for tonification, then recheck for pulse until it is full. Thanks to all! This is my experience........ If the above method does not help, I seek other advice........ Good luck to you all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 3, 2008 Report Share Posted December 3, 2008 Chad, Your website is a great resource... I've been studying material from it for a while now. Are there any practitioners of Toyohari or traditional Japanese acupuncture in the SF/Bay area ? K. On Wed, Dec 3, 2008 at 6:36 AM, Chad Dupuis <dupuis wrote: > Hello Jason, > > In addition to what others have posted (Yuen, Matsumoto, etc.), I've > put together a section discussing the use of the extraordinary vessels > from a Japanese Acupuncture perspective on my website. From my > schooling and experience I've found the Japanese use of the > extraordinary vessels is extensive and clear. Other resources would > be the text " Extraordinary Vessels " by Matsumoto and Birch and the > text " Hara Diagnosis " by Birch. Even if you don't practice Japanese > acupuncture, per se, the protocols listed on the site and the > resources I've recommended will still be valuable. > > The referenced links are: > > Japanese Extraordinary Vessel Ion Cord Treatment Theory and Protocols: > > http://www.yinyanghouse.com/theory/japanese/extraordinary_vessel_treatment_proto\ col > > Japanese Acupuncture Resources: > http://www.yinyanghouse.com/research/japanese_acupuncture_resources > > Main Japanese Section: > http://www.yinyanghouse.com/theory/japanese/acupuncture_information > > I hope you find the information valuable. > > Cheers, > > -Chad. > > > -- aka Mu bong Lim Father of Bhakti The Four Reliances: Do not rely upon the individual, but rely upon the teaching. As far as teachings go, do not rely upon the words alone, but rely upon the meaning that underlies them. Regarding the meaning, do not rely upon the provisional meaning alone, but rely upon the definitive meaning. And regarding the definitive meaning, do not rely upon ordinary consciousness, but rely upon wisdom awareness. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 3, 2008 Report Share Posted December 3, 2008 Dr Nam... Were you trained in Vietnam or elsewhere? You're practicing more classical needling and pulse verification... Where can one learn more about this? K. On Wed, Dec 3, 2008 at 7:14 AM, dr_namnguyen58 <dr_namnguyen58wrote: > Hi everybody, > I always use extra channels as my first treatment in most > illnesses. However, the point I choose usually is one, not in pair. A > point is chosen depend upon the pulse conditions. > If the pulse is weak, I use tonification; strong or full for > sedation. If the pulse is floating, superficial needling must follow; > deep pulse for deep insertion and retaining a little longer_ 2 - 3 > minutes. > There are 3 levels of pulses He-Lu ( Upper ) ; Liv-Sp ( Mi ), > Kid-Ub / Peri ( Lower ). These levels will help me to determine which > point ( hand-arm or foot-leg ) is for the treatment. Let's say the Lu > is strong, full and floating, I expect a headache or vertigo or a > dizziness in the upper part of the body, chest pain or discomfort or a > cough, sore throat. Therefore, I choose the lower extremity ( distant > point ); for severe, sedation ( strong, full condition ); fast > insertion and shallow needling ( floating pulse ). If not severe, I > will choose a hand point. Last, I will compare the pulses of two hands > if the left hand is weaker, I will choose a right body point. Another > way of choosing a point, assuming I pick K7 or K3 for lung symptoms. I > will press two points lightly simultaneously and deeper and stronger > as needed while I am asking the patient for an input which one is more > sensitive. I will needle that point. > If the diagnosis is precise, I expect the headache, dizziness or > vertigo or any other problems should be diminished or vanished in > seconds, not minutes............ To verify this, we must ask our > patient for an input. But subsiding does not mean its problem > disappear, ask our patient to turn his head side to side, up and down > a few times to be sure there is no recurrent at that time. One thing > for sure, if our patient has weak pulses, do not expect instant result > because he or she does not have enough energy ( Qi ) for instant > result or healing.......... Wait or prescribe herbal formulas for > tonification, then recheck for pulse until it is full. > Thanks to all! This is my experience........ If the above method > does not help, I seek other advice........ > > Good luck to you all. > > > -- aka Mu bong Lim Father of Bhakti The Four Reliances: Do not rely upon the individual, but rely upon the teaching. As far as teachings go, do not rely upon the words alone, but rely upon the meaning that underlies them. Regarding the meaning, do not rely upon the provisional meaning alone, but rely upon the definitive meaning. And regarding the definitive meaning, do not rely upon ordinary consciousness, but rely upon wisdom awareness. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 3, 2008 Report Share Posted December 3, 2008 Jason, Nice little exercise - Thank you :0) I primarily use Japanese style non-insertive acupuncture and my own interpretations of the Nan Jing - also for 8EV treatments and the following is where I am currently at. My standard diagnostic procedure is guided by the Nan Jing symptomology (simple, but leaves me with lots of room to play and be creative) and is mainly palpatory . It includes Six Position pulse diagnosis and Pulse Quality diagnosis, abdominal, and channel palpation. I currently primarily use 8EV in cases of excess/stagnation causing Shan and/or structural problems. It is very seldom I see a patient without some structural problem or other, so I use 8EV quite extensively. Some channel signs indicating 8EV problems are: Yang Qiao Mai problems : Unilaterally or bilaterally GB and Bl Channels on the leg should simultaneously display signs of excess such as pressure pain, nodules, general hardness and stiffness. Kid and spleen channels should be comparatively more relaxed, preferably showing signs of deficiency such as indentations, fluid retention (often in little pockets around points), dryness, somtimes w. a cold feel to them Yin Qiao Mai : Reverse of Yang Qiao Mai Yang wei Mai : LI, SJ, SI channel should unilaterally or bilaterally should simultaneously display signs of excess such as pressure pain, nodules, general hardness and stiffness. Lu, PC and Ht channels should be comparatively more relaxed, preferably showing signs of deficiency such as indentations, fluid retention (often in little pockets around points), dryness, sometimes w. a cold feel to them probably with very visible blue veins yin wei Mai : Tightness covering Lu, PC and Ht being very tight on and around the HeSea points of those meridiansas well as displaying pressure pain at these points. Very often the opposite Yang channels won't be displaying deficiency, but be more " normal. " Often LI and SJ channels will have slight deep tension and tightness running along the channels from wrist or mid- rm to elbow - especially if the patients overall pattern is one og Yang def/Cold. Chong Mai : Sp and St channels on leg up to St30, Kid channel from St 30 ascending to chest Ren Mai : Unilateral og bilateral tightness on the Lu channel extending from 1- two inches above Lu5 reaching at least Lu6 sometimes to Japanese Lu7 and general tightness extending the full lenght of the Linea Alba or at least to the Belly button. Du Mai : SI channel showing signs of excess especially from SI9 covering the entire shoulder blade unilaterally as well as pressure pain, stiffness, coldness or swelling at several Ren points in line. There may also be tension of the Japanese Back Kidney Channel (HuaTuoJiaji) bilaterally. To confirm diagnosis og 8EV one or more of the following signs should present themselves: 1) Visible structural problems or asymmetry in torso, length of arms legs, facial asymmetry, poor posture.... 2) Abdominal findings such as 8EV abdominal patterns 3) Hardness in pulse (Nan Jing defines hardness in pulse as excess) or Six Position pulse diagnosis that doesn't follow symptom presentation show hardness in positions of related channels (se above for channels palpated) Treatment is somewhat more simple ;0) I only use the master points of the symptomatic EV. I tend to use them bilaterally starting with the most deficient side or if equally imbalanced I use left side needling for men and right side for women. The Master points tend to move quite a lot so it is important to palpate for the exact point or nothing really happens - at least using contact needling. I do not use the assistant points because I don't see any difference in outcome in clinic. And theoretically I don't really understand the point of using the assistant points - they're " just " master points for other 8EV - I'll be studying this and trying it out in clinic before I make more definitive conclusions on this particular topic. Using contact needling at the chosen master point I will wait for Qi to arrive and then for it to leave again (not the De Qi of Chinese acupuncture, but the sublte one usually sought for in Japanese Acupuncture / Keiraku Chiryo). If 8EV diagnosis is correct then - while Qi is present - tense muscles will start contracting and relaxing rythmically or the connective tissues will start to " move " making little bits of the tight muscle or an entire limb jump. This pretty much goes until thightness is much reduced or disappeared along with the Qi. After succesful stimulation of point I repalpate the channels, pulse, abdominal findings etc. Usually what I am left with are more typical patterns of deficiency and excess of the 12 channels. Again, Jason, thank you for the opportunity to get some of my thoughts and current practice down on paper. Best regards, Thomas Thomas Sorensen tir, 02 12 2008 kl. 16:31 +0000, skrev zrosenbe: > Jason, > A short note as I'm in NY until tonight when I return home. I use the > extraordinary vessels unilaterally, on opposite limbs/sides, then > choose points on the specific extraordinary vessel channels on the > trunk. I tend to needle more lightly when doing extraordinary vessel > treatments. I initially learned my approach from Kiiko Matsumoto some > 23 years ago, updated with readings from various texts over the years, > from Larre/de la Vallee to classical sources such as the Nan Jing, so > my style has evolved over time. . . > > > ---- wrote: > > I was wondering if others could share what they have been taught (or > > discovered) in regard to accessing the 8 extra meridians with > acupuncture. > > For example, what techniques do you specifically use that > differentiates the > > stimulation of the Spleen channel vs. the chong. Consequently how do > you > > know that you have accessed one versus the other (after you needle)? > Or does > > it even matter. I know that some people have special techniques they > claim > > to differentiate these and if it is not too much trouble I would > love to > > hear the differing opinions out there. I am not overly concerned > about the > > quality of the source, but it would be helpful if you could just > mention > > where the idea came from (e.g. this or that teacher, some book, > personal > > experience) etc. > > > > > > > > Thanks, > > > > > > > > - > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > <http://maps./py/maps.py?Pyt=Tmap & addr=2600+30th+Street%2C > +Suite+20 > > 0 & csz=Boulder%2C+Co & country=us> 2600 30th Street, Suite 200 > > Boulder, Co > > 80301 > > > > > > > > > > > > > <http://www.plaxo.com/signature?src=client_sig_212_1_simple_sig & lang=en> > > Want a signature like this? > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 3, 2008 Report Share Posted December 3, 2008 It seems that activating the 8-extras depends on point pairings. Check out the Journal of Medical Acupuncture. If you do a search on Chong Mo, you'll find one practitioner's interpretation. Japanese 8 extra approach is totally different from the Chinese approach. I've had v. good results with 8 extras for chronic back issues, using the Japanese style of shallow insertion and paired 8 x points. cheers, y.c. LAc, EFT-ADV Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 4, 2008 Report Share Posted December 4, 2008 Needle the master point deep at least 1 cun(I know Japanese do it different but that has a different effect than this and I think their versions of 8 vessel pathologies reflects this), then needle points along the trajectory of the the vessel, or other points in the tx, then close with the coupled point 1 cun deep. Needle BL 62 at the red/whit skin line lower than standard. Open yangqiao for inflammation conditions, to cool the body, for insommnia open with bl62 needle bl1 then close with si3...For narcalepsy use yin qiao, pc6 has a branch that goes to rn17 open yinwei then rn17(point of qi) for qi stagnation in the chest and upper body, close with sp4. You can use pc6 for all internal problems tw5 all external, open with master point then do other points in tx then close with coupled to make tx stronger, or even better calculate when vessel points are open and needle at the time. Can use segments of yinwei on abd. for menses problems. Xi cleft points of yin qiao for sensory problems I think...Open cv or du before needling those channels to make a stronger effect...$ flowers to spread mingmen fire to the extremities also good for adrenal failure and low energy in the morning, open with sp4 needle 4 points in a square around rn12 on the chong superficially so the needles look like four flowers, close with pc6, also its good for patients taking lots of antibiotics...Open yangqiao for occipital headache works well, close with si3... Chinese Medicine , Yangchu Higgins <ycmgh wrote: > > It seems that activating the 8-extras depends on point pairings. Check out the Journal of Medical Acupuncture. If you do a search on Chong Mo, you'll find one practitioner's interpretation. > > Japanese 8 extra approach is totally different from the Chinese approach. I've had v. good results with 8 extras for chronic back issues, using the Japanese style of shallow insertion and paired 8 x points. > > cheers, > y.c. LAc, EFT-ADV > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 4, 2008 Report Share Posted December 4, 2008 Thanks everyone for your comments on 8 extra, I find this topic very fascinating. However, I think the most important part of my question was not clearly presented, hence not answered. Although I think that Thomas (thank you!) has given some good commentary on the issues I bring up. Let me rephrase. We all can see from the posts that there is a large variety of ideas and many of which contradict each other. This is a major issue we must all look at. For example, do you know Li Shi-Zhen (who wrote Investigations of the Eight Extraordinary Vessels (qi jing ba mai kao) does not mention master and couple points for treatments. Yet many modern experts say that is all you need (to access them). Others say, all you need is a master point by itself, while others, a master point and another point on the channel, while others say, you need no master and couple, just points on the channel. Consequently, I am not interested in books or websites that talk about 8 extras, I have probably read most of what is in English, hence my question. I also do not care about point prescriptions and what they do. It seems we all understand when we like (or are supposed) to use 8 extras. However, I want to hear how each individual experiences and utilizes this stuff in the clinic (specific needle techniques) and how one verifies that what they are doing is correct. The first part of my question is what actual needle technique do you use to access the 8 extra? This is after you dx and determine what points you are going to use. Do you for example, just needle deep or shallow, do you shake the needle, do you needle with the channel. This is what I want to hear some details of. Furthermore, if you needle deep to access the 8 extras (and that is it), do really believe that this is all that it takes to access them? I also would like to hear if you think needle technique is irrelevant as long as you pick the right points. For example, do you believe that just needling Sp4 accesses the Chong (and not the Spleen?). This is the real issue. But more important than that is Part II: ** How do you determine if you actually needled the channel (e.g. Spleen) or 8 extra (chong). Do you check the pulse, abdomen, or some channel palpation to determine before and after to determine success. The point of this is that I have heard to many people rant about how to access the 8 extras with their special system yet they never discuss any way to verify this. It is usually purely based on theory. For example, 8 extras are deeper than normal channels therefore one must needle deeper. Well this is a nice story but let us verify it! Do we just take all these stories( which BTW contradict each other) on blind faith? To properly evaluate such a technique we must be able to access the body in some way to differentiate (e.g. palpation). Otherwise IMO, it is just a story that we are making up. The reason I ask for your input is because in our office we plan to put these ideas to the test through direct palpation etc. I encourage others to challenge what you have been feed and see if it is really true. I get the impression we often just go on blind faith because someone said this or that is correct. How do we know the 8 extras even exist if we cannot verify these things. Other's opinions? -Jason Chinese Medicine Chinese Medicine On Behalf Of jasonwcom Wednesday, December 03, 2008 5:29 PM Chinese Medicine Re:8 Extra Needle the master point deep at least 1 cun(I know Japanese do it different but that has a different effect than this and I think their versions of 8 vessel pathologies reflects this), then needle points along the trajectory of the the vessel, or other points in the tx, then close with the coupled point 1 cun deep. Needle BL 62 at the red/whit skin line lower than standard. Open yangqiao for inflammation conditions, to cool the body, for insommnia open with bl62 needle bl1 then close with si3...For narcalepsy use yin qiao, pc6 has a branch that goes to rn17 open yinwei then rn17(point of qi) for qi stagnation in the chest and upper body, close with sp4. You can use pc6 for all internal problems tw5 all external, open with master point then do other points in tx then close with coupled to make tx stronger, or even better calculate when vessel points are open and needle at the time. Can use segments of yinwei on abd. for menses problems. Xi cleft points of yin qiao for sensory problems I think...Open cv or du before needling those channels to make a stronger effect...$ flowers to spread mingmen fire to the extremities also good for adrenal failure and low energy in the morning, open with sp4 needle 4 points in a square around rn12 on the chong superficially so the needles look like four flowers, close with pc6, also its good for patients taking lots of antibiotics...Open yangqiao for occipital headache works well, close with si3... atabase: 270.9.11/1820 - Release 12/3/2008 9:34 AM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 4, 2008 Report Share Posted December 4, 2008 Dear John, First, thanks for your inquiries. I have learned and practiced TCM in California, not in Vietnam. There is one thing that made me interested in TCM, I had treated several diseases successfully without experience, that is a bless. I believe that I devoted myself to learn more and more and keep asking myself questions and try to find answers, I may find a resolution......... I am awared that we,TCM, have limits, but others may not think so. This is a reason I have to combine our treatments with nutrient supplements or with other herbal medicine from different origins. I only wish that I can utilize my skill precisely. I am always thirst for knowledge and hungry for reasoning. Therefore, I must understand TCM theories, Yin-Yang, organs, 5 elements, channels... I have treated some Lupus patients, but the last patient here was a few weeks ago. This is a very interesting case... She, age 48, had a Lupus for 30 years with fibromyalgia " severe pain all over her body " , looked exhausted with asthma, anorexia, always feels extremely fatigue, irritable and sleepless, PULSES : thready weak and deep, espcially in Ki Yin-Yang and Heart ( left cun ). After checking pulses, I said to her, " This is an incurable disease. But I can help. " ........ The Ki pulse on Right side was weaker and slower, so I chose K3 ( left side ), deep insertion, turned and twisted for a minute, her pulse got stronger and fuller. I withdrew the needle, she felt much better, but the pain was still there. I prescribed Jin Gui SHen Qi Wan ( 30 pills each, 3x/day with little salt ), her pulses maintained full and strong. The pain was still the same, anorexia ( poor appetite was not changed ) but energy was better, and sleep much better. I prescribed honey and garlic pills ( 2 ), 2x/ day " nutrient therapy instead of TCM " . The pain disappeared... The pulses were moderate, soft, I chose S36 ( moderate needling, not too deep, not too shallow ). After 1 minute, I asked her to have dinner, she had good appetite. But that appetite lasted only 2 days........... I found out from inquiry, that she got tired again after a few days of treatments, but no pain. She had been a diabetic for at least 17 years. I told her that you may have had a thyroid problem because of your pulses, and she answered I have had thyroid problem and I have taken thyroid medication for years............. Dear friend, I do not know what to do at this time because of the thyroid.. If someone has heard of this case, please air and share with our friends here on this group. I must take my time off and think over this for a while. I do not know why this case has blocked my mind, I cannot go further......... Thanks for reading this. Nam Nguyen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 4, 2008 Report Share Posted December 4, 2008 Hi Jason B., Interesting topic. It sounds like you are trying for a philosophy of science with regard to Chinese medicine. You have used words to the effect of guarantee, verify, and prove in your posts on this topic. And you have noted that these are what is important to you. It also sounds like you are trying to show that these terms do not apply to Chinese medicine. If so, then I would agree with you. Chinese medicine is not Western science. I like " endogenous opioid release " as the so called gold standard, rather than double-blind studies of single variables with sample sizes adequate to show statistical significance. I practice tai ji and aerobic sports to obtain the " placebo effect " or EOR (endogenous opioid release). Perhaps you can get the ball rolling here since you ask the question with the hopes of obtaining guarantees, verifications and proofs. Where do you start and with what first principle? How do you guarantee a result? How do you verify the result? That way people will be able to reply in kind, and you can evaluate the data. Do you see a change in the tongue, pulse or other observable measurement? Do your patients report a change? Are you testing a first principle? Do any Western science related research questions relate to the first principles of Chinese medicine? Thanks for your clinical examples as well as the first principles that you employ. This is an interesting topic. As you know, I wonder if any of these questions address any living science including organisms observed by biological sciences. My academic advisor in medical school was Dr. Milka M. Montiel the head of the university hospital pathology department at UTHSCSA. Her chief resident was Dr. John Stavinoha my housemate during my first year, his last year of residency. They were responsible for " proving " things: cause of death, transformation of cells, malignancy, etc. Personally I see no basis in your line of questioning to determine anything about Chinese medicine which does not use Western scientific principles or technologies. That's why I ask for your first principles and your own examples of verification. My research mentors in medical and graduate schools told me to never ask a question without a starting point in some realm that has been verified. What then was I testing? What principle did I want to apply. What would be the materials and methods? What would be my units of measure? What results could be expected? So if the map or " study " does not have a starting point, then any question I would ask is " blue sky " or not relevant to anything in Western science. Are the 8 Extraordinary Vessels an established part of Western science? Is any part of Chinese medicine an established and verified part of Western science? Can then Western scientific questions be asked about it with a result that shows anything about Chinese medicine and not about Western science? In my experience Western science and CM are self referential to their own first principles, domains of verification, and units of measure. Is this what you are trying to note with your topic? Or are you trying to establish a philosophy of science in the English language about Chinese medicine that can cause Western science to observe CM? Respectfully, Emmanuel Segmen --- Posted by: " " Wed Dec 3, 2008 5:57 pm (PST) Thanks everyone for your comments on 8 extra, I find this topic very fascinating. However, I think the most important part of my question was not clearly presented, hence not answered. Although I think that Thomas (thank you!) has given some good commentary on the issues I bring up. Let me rephrase. We all can see from the posts that there is a large variety of ideas and many of which contradict each other. This is a major issue we must all look at. For example, do you know Li Shi-Zhen (who wrote Investigations of the Eight Extraordinary Vessels (qi jing ba mai kao) does not mention master and couple points for treatments. Yet many modern experts say that is all you need (to access them). Others say, all you need is a master point by itself, while others, a master point and another point on the channel, while others say, you need no master and couple, just points on the channel. Consequently, I am not interested in books or websites that talk about 8 extras, I have probably read most of what is in English, hence my question. I also do not care about point prescriptions and what they do. It seems we all understand when we like (or are supposed) to use 8 extras. However, I want to hear how each individual experiences and utilizes this stuff in the clinic (specific needle techniques) and how one verifies that what they are doing is correct. The first part of my question is what actual needle technique do you use to access the 8 extra? This is after you dx and determine what points you are going to use. Do you for example, just needle deep or shallow, do you shake the needle, do you needle with the channel. This is what I want to hear some details of. Furthermore, if you needle deep to access the 8 extras (and that is it), do really believe that this is all that it takes to access them? I also would like to hear if you think needle technique is irrelevant as long as you pick the right points. For example, do you believe that just needling Sp4 accesses the Chong (and not the Spleen?). This is the real issue. But more important than that is Part II: ** How do you determine if you actually needled the channel (e.g. Spleen) or 8 extra (chong). Do you check the pulse, abdomen, or some channel palpation to determine before and after to determine success. The point of this is that I have heard to many people rant about how to access the 8 extras with their special system yet they never discuss any way to verify this. It is usually purely based on theory. For example, 8 extras are deeper than normal channels therefore one must needle deeper. Well this is a nice story but let us verify it! Do we just take all these stories( which BTW contradict each other) on blind faith? To properly evaluate such a technique we must be able to access the body in some way to differentiate (e.g. palpation). Otherwise IMO, it is just a story that we are making up. The reason I ask for your input is because in our office we plan to put these ideas to the test through direct palpation etc. I encourage others to challenge what you have been feed and see if it is really true. I get the impression we often just go on blind faith because someone said this or that is correct. How do we know the 8 extras even exist if we cannot verify these things. Other's opinions? -Jason Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 4, 2008 Report Share Posted December 4, 2008 Emmauel, Quite simply, I think we are having a bit of terminology differences. What I refer to as " proof " is far from what Western scientific / paradigm would require for proof. Consequently, the two ways (western scientific and what I refer to) of evaluation / thinking are not comparable. In my scenario, " proof " or " verify " are terms that apply to the practitioner and (hopefully) can be used my others to also evaluate the result. There is no external device or measurable number that holds this truth, and precisely relies on the abilities and awareness of the practitioner, hence the rub. My inquiry is such, within Chinese medicine what tools do practitioners use to determine (guarantee, proof, verify) that what they are doing is actually occurring. Of course we probably will never know, according to a Western paradigm, but that is a different issue. For example, personally in my practice the way I verify that I am actually needling and accessing a certain channel (e.g. Lung) is through changes in the pulse, changes felt with direct channel palpation, abdominal changes, reduction of Lung symptomology (sensation such a tightness in the chest) as well as direct visceral palpation (e.g. motility and mobility of the organ) etc. Consequently, this process allows me to evaluate needle techniques and location (e.g. depth, rotation, holding, etc etc) . Of course this might not satisfy the Western mind, but it works for me. Chinese medicine works on what we feel and observe, devices in my quest I doubt would be of much help. This of course can be verified by people who also " speak the same language " / been trained in such palpation techniques. Hence, the point is without some feedback system one is practicing on blind faith. Just sticking needles in without " verification. " Furthermore, my question is far from some philosophical jaunt into the ether. It should be in the forefront of clinician's mind. Consequently, any teacher that tells you that they access the 8 extras with this or that technique should be asked these questions. Precisely, how do you know? If they can answer with some way (e.g. as I mention above) in how they came to their conclusions (verified) then this is a great starting point. Otherwise it is all theory talk. Does this make sense? -Jason Chinese Medicine Chinese Medicine On Behalf Of Emmauel Segmen Wednesday, December 03, 2008 11:33 PM Chinese Medicine Re: 8 Extra Hi Jason B., Interesting topic. It sounds like you are trying for a philosophy of science with regard to Chinese medicine. You have used words to the effect of guarantee, verify, and prove in your posts on this topic. And you have noted that these are what is important to you. It also sounds like you are trying to show that these terms do not apply to Chinese medicine. If so, then I would agree with you. Chinese medicine is not Western science. I like " endogenous opioid release " as the so called gold standard, rather than double-blind studies of single variables with sample sizes adequate to show statistical significance. I practice tai ji and aerobic sports to obtain the " placebo effect " or EOR (endogenous opioid release). Perhaps you can get the ball rolling here since you ask the question with the hopes of obtaining guarantees, verifications and proofs. Where do you start and with what first principle? How do you guarantee a result? How do you verify the result? That way people will be able to reply in kind, and you can evaluate the data. Do you see a change in the tongue, pulse or other observable measurement? Do your patients report a change? Are you testing a first principle? Do any Western science related research questions relate to the first principles of Chinese medicine? Thanks for your clinical examples as well as the first principles that you employ. This is an interesting topic. As you know, I wonder if any of these questions address any living science including organisms observed by biological sciences. My academic advisor in medical school was Dr. Milka M. Montiel the head of the university hospital pathology department at UTHSCSA. Her chief resident was Dr. John Stavinoha my housemate during my first year, his last year of residency. They were responsible for " proving " things: cause of death, transformation of cells, malignancy, etc. Personally I see no basis in your line of questioning to determine anything about Chinese medicine which does not use Western scientific principles or technologies. That's why I ask for your first principles and your own examples of verification. My research mentors in medical and graduate schools told me to never ask a question without a starting point in some realm that has been verified. What then was I testing? What principle did I want to apply. What would be the materials and methods? What would be my units of measure? What results could be expected? So if the map or " study " does not have a starting point, then any question I would ask is " blue sky " or not relevant to anything in Western science. Are the 8 Extraordinary Vessels an established part of Western science? Is any part of Chinese medicine an established and verified part of Western science? Can then Western scientific questions be asked about it with a result that shows anything about Chinese medicine and not about Western science? In my experience Western science and CM are self referential to their own first principles, domains of verification, and units of measure. Is this what you are trying to note with your topic? Or are you trying to establish a philosophy of science in the English language about Chinese medicine that can cause Western science to observe CM? Respectfully, Emmanuel Segmen --- Posted by: " " <%40Chinese Medicine> Wed Dec 3, 2008 5:57 pm (PST) Thanks everyone for your comments on 8 extra, I find this topic very fascinating. However, I think the most important part of my question was not clearly presented, hence not answered. Although I think that Thomas (thank you!) has given some good commentary on the issues I bring up. Let me rephrase. We all can see from the posts that there is a large variety of ideas and many of which contradict each other. This is a major issue we must all look at. For example, do you know Li Shi-Zhen (who wrote Investigations of the Eight Extraordinary Vessels (qi jing ba mai kao) does not mention master and couple points for treatments. Yet many modern experts say that is all you need (to access them). Others say, all you need is a master point by itself, while others, a master point and another point on the channel, while others say, you need no master and couple, just points on the channel. Consequently, I am not interested in books or websites that talk about 8 extras, I have probably read most of what is in English, hence my question. I also do not care about point prescriptions and what they do. It seems we all understand when we like (or are supposed) to use 8 extras. However, I want to hear how each individual experiences and utilizes this stuff in the clinic (specific needle techniques) and how one verifies that what they are doing is correct. The first part of my question is what actual needle technique do you use to access the 8 extra? This is after you dx and determine what points you are going to use. Do you for example, just needle deep or shallow, do you shake the needle, do you needle with the channel. This is what I want to hear some details of. Furthermore, if you needle deep to access the 8 extras (and that is it), do really believe that this is all that it takes to access them? I also would like to hear if you think needle technique is irrelevant as long as you pick the right points. For example, do you believe that just needling Sp4 accesses the Chong (and not the Spleen?). This is the real issue. But more important than that is Part II: ** How do you determine if you actually needled the channel (e.g. Spleen) or 8 extra (chong). Do you check the pulse, abdomen, or some channel palpation to determine before and after to determine success. The point of this is that I have heard to many people rant about how to access the 8 extras with their special system yet they never discuss any way to verify this. It is usually purely based on theory. For example, 8 extras are deeper than normal channels therefore one must needle deeper. Well this is a nice story but let us verify it! Do we just take all these stories( which BTW contradict each other) on blind faith? To properly evaluate such a technique we must be able to access the body in some way to differentiate (e.g. palpation). Otherwise IMO, it is just a story that we are making up. The reason I ask for your input is because in our office we plan to put these ideas to the test through direct palpation etc. I encourage others to challenge what you have been feed and see if it is really true. I get the impression we often just go on blind faith because someone said this or that is correct. How do we know the 8 extras even exist if we cannot verify these things. Other's opinions? -Jason Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 4, 2008 Report Share Posted December 4, 2008 Karen, I would still like to hear about the needling technique you use that helps access the 8 Extras. -Jason Chinese Medicine Chinese Medicine On Behalf Of Karen Adams Wednesday, December 03, 2008 5:47 AM Chinese Medicine Re: 8 Extra Hi Jason - David answered the question much better than I could. You establish a tx as 8 Extra by the selection and use of points along that particular channel. Intention is also important. Karen wrote: > Karen, > > Thanks. I unfortunately have never had much luck resonating with > Yuen's work > or at least getting to the clinical essence of what he is saying. > However I > am open to what he says. I think I heard his 8 extra lecture once. > However, > would you mind explaining what your take of his system is and how you > use it > in the clinic? So you needle deeper and shake the needle and this accesses > the 8 extras? Anything else? How do you or he evaluate if the needling > actually hit the 8 extra versus the channel? > > Thanks, > > -Jason > > Chinese Medicine <Chinese Medicine%40> > <Chinese Medicine%40> > [Chinese Medicine <Chinese Medicine%40> > <Chinese Medicine%40>] On Behalf Of > Karen > Adams > Tuesday, December 02, 2008 9:24 AM > Chinese Medicine <Chinese Medicine%40> > <Chinese Medicine%40> > Re: 8 Extra > > Jason - I recommend you get a copy of Jeffrey Yuen's lecture on the 8 > Extraordinary Meridians (from New England School of Acupuncture). Very > good, very in depth, lots of history on use. Jeffrey says the 8 Extras > are like oceans (as opposed to rivers/Primaries), so needling is deeper > (thus 'telling' the point used that it is accessing an 8 Extra rather > than a primary), and you have to shake the needle to stir the waters, as > it were. He also says that, because they are oceans, it takes longer > for effect, and effects are more subtle. > > There's a lot in the lecture about using these channels as a reflection > of life progression. Very interesting stuff. > Karen > > Karen R Adams, > Lic Ac, Dipl Ac > 296 Avenue A > Turners Falls, MA 01376 > 413-768-8333 > > wrote: > > > I was wondering if others could share what they have been taught (or > > discovered) in regard to accessing the 8 extra meridians with > acupuncture. > > For example, what techniques do you specifically use that > > differentiates the > > stimulation of the Spleen channel vs. the chong. Consequently how do you > > know that you have accessed one versus the other (after you needle)? > > Or does > > it even matter. I know that some people have special techniques they > claim > > to differentiate these and if it is not too much trouble I would love to > > hear the differing opinions out there. I am not overly concerned > about the > > quality of the source, but it would be helpful if you could just mention > > where the idea came from (e.g. this or that teacher, some book, personal > > experience) etc. > > > > Thanks, > > > > - > > > > > > > > > > <http://maps./py/maps.py?Pyt=Tmap > <http://maps./py/maps.py?Pyt=Tmap> > <http://maps./py/maps.py?Pyt=Tmap <http://maps./py/maps.py?Pyt=Tmap & addr=2600+30th+Street%2C+Suite+20 > & addr=2600+30th+Street%2C+Suite+20 > <http://maps./py/maps.py?Pyt=Tmap <http://maps./py/maps.py?Pyt=Tmap & addr=2600+30th+Street%2C+Suite+20 > & addr=2600+30th+Street%2C+Suite+20> > > & addr=2600+30th+Street%2C+Suite+20 > > <http://maps./py/maps.py?Pyt=Tmap > <http://maps./py/maps.py?Pyt=Tmap> > <http://maps./py/maps.py?Pyt=Tmap <http://maps./py/maps.py?Pyt=Tmap & addr=2600+30th+Street%2C+Suite+20 > & addr=2600+30th+Street%2C+Suite+20 > <http://maps./py/maps.py?Pyt=Tmap <http://maps./py/maps.py?Pyt=Tmap & addr=2600+30th+Street%2C+Suite+20 > & addr=2600+30th+Street%2C+Suite+20> > > & addr=2600+30th+Street%2C+Suite+20> > > 0 & csz=Boulder%2C+Co & country=us> 2600 30th Street, Suite 200 > > Boulder, Co > > 80301 > > > > > > > > <http://www.plaxo.com/signature?src=client_sig_212_1_simple_sig > <http://www.plaxo.com/signature?src=client_sig_212_1_simple_sig> > <http://www.plaxo.com/signature?src=client_sig_212_1_simple_sig <http://www.plaxo.com/signature?src=client_sig_212_1_simple_sig & lang=en> & lang=en > <http://www.plaxo.com/signature?src=client_sig_212_1_simple_sig <http://www.plaxo.com/signature?src=client_sig_212_1_simple_sig & lang=en> & lang=en>> > & lang=en > > <http://www.plaxo.com/signature?src=client_sig_212_1_simple_sig > <http://www.plaxo.com/signature?src=client_sig_212_1_simple_sig> > <http://www.plaxo.com/signature?src=client_sig_212_1_simple_sig <http://www.plaxo.com/signature?src=client_sig_212_1_simple_sig & lang=en> & lang=en > <http://www.plaxo.com/signature?src=client_sig_212_1_simple_sig <http://www.plaxo.com/signature?src=client_sig_212_1_simple_sig & lang=en> & lang=en>> > & lang=en>> > > Want a signature like this? > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 5, 2008 Report Share Posted December 5, 2008 Hi Emmanuel and Jason B. Emmanuel wrote: Or are you trying to establish a philosophy of science in the English language about Chinese medicine that can cause Western science to observe CM? Having already kicked off part of this 8 Extraordinary vessel discussion with Jason a few weeks ago over wine and dinner, I have a bit of a feel for what he might be driving at. Jason, please correct me if I'm off base here.. I don't think that Jason is looking for western science/ modern reductioninst ways of describing and verifying the vessels but instead looking for ways within the context of Chinese medicine to verify both their involvement and the possibility that they have been affected by a particular treatment strategy. I have quite a few thoughts on this. As Jason may remember, it comes down to thinking of the extraordinary vessels as 'harmonizers' and 'integrators' of multiple regular channels. Thus when I suspect that multiple regular channels have lost their ability to inter-regulate, I consider the 8 Extraordinary. Now, you might rightly ask, " What the heck is the ability to inter-regulate " ? Good question. For now, my understanding of this involves trial and error in the clinic. In many cases, I may begin with a certain treatment then find that, despite what I think is a clear diagnosis, the patient is not responding as most patients do. I might first re-evaluate to make sure that I have not simply chosen the wrong channel for treatment and I may even switch channels for another treatment. If the patient again responds strangely (or not at all) then I palpate. Palpation in cases of extraordinary vessel involvement involves looking for significant palpable change on multiple channels. For example, a person with face pain or paralysis may usually involve the Yang Ming stomach/L.I. channel. Assuming I have been using that channel after finding Yang Ming changes but not getting response, I might double check to see if the face issue is more Shao Yang G.B./S.J. I might even treat Shao Yang once or twice. Finally, I may begin to think that there is a more fundamental scrambling of the channel system- not only are both Shao Yang and Yang Ming affected, for example, but they have somehow lost their ability to interact with each other and the broader channel system. In the above case, if there is facial paralysis, we might say that this is a problem coordinating multiple yang channel sinew vessels. This is a problem often associated with the Yang Qiao. I would then palpate UB-62. There may be severe tenderness, tightness or bubbles in this area - but not always to be honest as far as I can tell. It is kind of an intellectual leap to this idea of inter-regulation. In this case, I would switch to using a kind of combination of maybe Shao Yang or Yang Ming points on the arms with the UB-62 point for one-two treatments to see if this opens things up a bit. As for technique in extraordinary vessel cases, I don't use a different technique than I would in regular cases. For me the key to their ability to affect this 'other' level is in which other channel points are combined with the coupled points. By using a point like UB-62 in a Yang Ming/ Shao Yang case, for example, you are sending a strange message to the channel system. Well, thats one example of how I think about these things. I would be very much interested in other thoughts. Jason B., basically there are fewer of the palpable changes-type hints for the eight extraordinary than there are for the regular channel involvement. You have to kind of think through the possibility that this case is more complex than you originally thought then see if the coupled points open things up. Of course we could also go on for a bit on the subject of collateral points and their interesting intersection with 4 of the 8 coupled points but I've already rambled far too much. Respectfully, Jason Robertson Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 5, 2008 Report Share Posted December 5, 2008 If we open up one of the 8 extras, shouldn't pressure pain be released along all of the points on the channel as well? I haven't checked each point to verify, but I know that for instance if you needle KD 9 correctly (xi-cleft of Yin-wei), this can open up the area around the inguinal ligament, around the ASIS (GB 27, 28 area)... Dai mai points, which is where the Yin-wei channel flows. Next time, I'll pay attention to that and check each point before and after for pressure pain.... ie... for the Yin wei...SP 12, 13, 15, 16, LV 14.... by needling KD 9 or PC 6. Since these Yin-wei points are not on the KD or PC channel, this might be a better controlled experiment than needling GB 41 for GB 26, 27, 28 (Dai mai points that are already on the GB channel) for instance. For those who have studied Li Shi-Zhen's pulse diagnosis, do you see changes in the 8 extraordinary pulse findings? K. On Thu, Dec 4, 2008 at 4:38 PM, Jason Robertson <kentuckyginsengwrote: > Hi Emmanuel and Jason B. > > Emmanuel wrote: > > Or are you trying to establish a philosophy of science in the English > language about Chinese medicine that can cause Western science to observe > CM? > > Having already kicked off part of this 8 Extraordinary vessel discussion > with Jason a few weeks ago over wine and dinner, I have a bit of a feel for > what he might be driving at. Jason, please correct me if I'm off base > here.. > > I don't think that Jason is looking for western science/ modern > reductioninst ways of describing and verifying the vessels but instead > looking for ways within the context of Chinese medicine to verify both their > involvement and the possibility that they have been affected by a particular > treatment strategy. > > I have quite a few thoughts on this. As Jason may remember, it comes down > to thinking of the extraordinary vessels as 'harmonizers' and 'integrators' > of multiple regular channels. Thus when I suspect that multiple regular > channels have lost their ability to inter-regulate, I consider the 8 > Extraordinary. > > Now, you might rightly ask, " What the heck is the ability to > inter-regulate " ? Good question. For now, my understanding of this involves > trial and error in the clinic. In many cases, I may begin with a certain > treatment then find that, despite what I think is a clear diagnosis, the > patient is not responding as most patients do. I might first re-evaluate to > make sure that I have not simply chosen the wrong channel for treatment and > I may even switch channels for another treatment. If the patient again > responds strangely (or not at all) then I palpate. > > Palpation in cases of extraordinary vessel involvement involves looking for > significant palpable change on multiple channels. For example, a person with > face pain or paralysis may usually involve the Yang Ming stomach/L.I. > channel. Assuming I have been using that channel after finding Yang Ming > changes but not getting response, I might double check to see if the face > issue is more Shao Yang G.B./S.J. I might even treat Shao Yang once or > twice. Finally, I may begin to think that there is a more fundamental > scrambling of the channel system- not only are both Shao Yang and Yang Ming > affected, for example, but they have somehow lost their ability to interact > with each other and the broader channel system. > > In the above case, if there is facial paralysis, we might say that this is > a problem coordinating multiple yang channel sinew vessels. This is a > problem often associated with the Yang Qiao. I would then palpate UB-62. > There may be severe tenderness, tightness or bubbles in this area - but not > always to be honest as far as I can tell. It is kind of an intellectual > leap to this idea of inter-regulation. In this case, I would switch to > using a kind of combination of maybe Shao Yang or Yang Ming points on the > arms with the UB-62 point for one-two treatments to see if this opens things > up a bit. As for technique in extraordinary vessel cases, I don't use a > different technique than I would in regular cases. For me the key to their > ability to affect this 'other' level is in which other channel points are > combined with the coupled points. By using a point like UB-62 in a Yang > Ming/ Shao Yang case, for example, you are sending a strange message to the > channel system. > > Well, thats one example of how I think about these things. I would be very > much interested in other thoughts. > > Jason B., basically there are fewer of the palpable changes-type hints for > the eight extraordinary than there are for the regular channel involvement. > You have to kind of think through the possibility that this case is more > complex than you originally thought then see if the coupled points open > things up. > > Of course we could also go on for a bit on the subject of collateral points > and their interesting intersection with 4 of the 8 coupled points but I've > already rambled far too much. > > Respectfully, > > Jason Robertson > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 5, 2008 Report Share Posted December 5, 2008 Jason R., Jason B., Kokko, Karen and other Responders, This is a rich collection of information. Excellent thread in the manner of a graduate seminar. I think Jason B.'s answer is a good one (thanks) and appreciate what Jason Robertson has to disclose about the 8-Extra dinner conversation with Jason B. as well as his description of what is a " harmonizer " or even an integrator function for the 8 Extraordinary Vessels. My sense is that physiological integration begins only when there is good differentiation and good function in each organ and organ system, i.e. they don't impinge on each other. Your thoughts, Jason R., on this topic are deeper and more considered than my own. Please carry on. I'm very interested in your clinical analysis. I'm especially interested in how the 8 Extra. Vess. as harmonizers might free up channels in stasis. I don't see any contradiction in other responders presenting classical differences between Chinese and Japanese styles of treatment that are well known and established. I've seen experts in tui na and qi gong address this issue, the former with more immediate results and the latter with more gradual results. While I agree with you Jason R. that this is complex and not a linear one to one, Dr. Kang surprises me with how quickly he gets results. I'll ask Dr. Ping Qi Kang for his thoughts on this. I want also to hear, Jason R., you thoughts on differentiation of channels as the most important part of integration from any of these treatment protocols. Perhaps, Jason R., that your own normally deep needling technique in someway accesses what Karen was describing about Jeffrey Yuen's work in this area. I think that Karen would have a hard time trying to describe Yuen's profoundly complex needling technique, but I for one would love to hear what she thinks. Jeffrey's presentation is challenging, high velocity, complex and assumes a depth of knowledge and facility with Taoist ideas that I do not have in the realm of Chinese medicine ... though I like pondering his words. I'd be interested to hear more from Karen if she feels inclined to say a few more words. Respectfully and gratefully, Emmanuel Segmen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 5, 2008 Report Share Posted December 5, 2008 David, Thanks for your response... 3 questions.... 1. LV 3 and SP 10... you said they're unlisted points on extra channels.. which ones?... which school? 2. Going back to Jason B.'s questions... just because you needle all of these points that compose of an extraordinary channel, how do you really know that you're accessing an extraordinary channel and not just needling points on a few different primary channels? What kind of feedback mechanism are you using? 3. In Nei gong, you use the Yi to be attentive to the channel, not specific points.... I'm curious about the beginning and ending of the extra channels. The Ren and Du compose of the microcosmic orbit, which seems logical... originating in the lower abdomen and exiting out of Ren 1. The Chong originates in the same area and exits out of either Ren 1 or ST 30 and is very similar to the pathway of the Aorta following up the KD channel. The Dai mai wraps around the body and comes back to meet itself, originating in the lower jiao and exiting from LV 13. But what about the 2nd grouping of extra channels? The ones that J. Yuen calls " post-natal " ? Do they just begin around the ankle or leg and end up on the chest or head? Kiiko says that they should be considered vessels more than channels, because of their 3 dimensionality, holding as a reservoir. Are these fields of Qi, Jing, Shen... ? They can't just be 1 way streets. What is their true nature? Is their a physiological translation of these 2nd and 3rd ancestries of extra channels? I know that they connect to the extraordinary organs, but what about the channels themselves? Alex Grey has claimed to have seen the primary channels on LSD and has painted them. When you visualize the extra channels, are you seeing them on the patient's body or with your eyes closed? Here's a summary of J. Yuen's extraordinary vessel teachings, found in Jeffrey Jacob's clinical manual and Jeffrey Yuen's transcripts: According to Jeffrey Yuen, there are 3 Generations or Ancestries of the Extraordinary vessels according to the Constitutional school: *1st ancestry*: Chong, then Du and Ren (the coming together of Yin and Yang to create life)... Who am I? *2nd ancestry*: Yin wei/ Yang wei (connects jing and ministerial fire: PC/SJ to live in one's purpose)... Where am I going? *3rd ancestry:* Yin qiao/ Yang qiao/ Dai (reflection of life at the present moment)... Who is in charge? The Needle technique is to Lift and thrust on the deep level.. upon getting De Qi, lift it to the middle layer. The Opening point is chosen and needled unilaterally... *1st ancestry:* Chong, Du, Ren (prenatal) *Left Side = female* *Right side = male* *2nd/3rd ancestry:* Yin wei, Yang wei, Yin qiao, Yang qiao, Dai (postnatal) *Left side = male Right side = female* Retain needles for 30-40 minutes... (extraordinary channels are slower, wider, more diffuse and more subtle) If using moxa, use 3 cones to tonify.... on the Ren channel.. use 7 cones... on the Du channel... use 1 cone. With respect, K. On Tue, Dec 2, 2008 at 10:35 PM, flyingstarsfengshui <fiveshenwrote: > Hi Jason: > > Your asking a big question. My experience is a key is selecting a > variety of points on an eight extra channel, to stimulate the channel, > to activate its energetics, one point is not enough. This is what > sends a clear message that its an EV tx, not primary channel tx. Pick > points on the channel, not just the master points, if you want to add > them fine, but channel points is the key. And you can follow the > pathway and select areas along it, not the " formal points " , for > example, Tai Chong, Liver 3 is on the pathway, Spleen 10/Xue Hai is on > the pathway but not listed. > > In Nei Gong, we move our Yi/Intention through all these channels, not > specific points. > > Hope this helps. > > David > > --- In Chinese Medicine <Chinese Medicine%40yaho\ ogroups.com>, > " " > > wrote: > > > > Karen, > > > > > > > > Thanks. I unfortunately have never had much luck resonating with > Yuen's work > > or at least getting to the clinical essence of what he is saying. > However I > > am open to what he says. I think I heard his 8 extra lecture once. > However, > > would you mind explaining what your take of his system is and how > you use it > > in the clinic? So you needle deeper and shake the needle and this > accesses > > the 8 extras? Anything else? How do you or he evaluate if the needling > > actually hit the 8 extra versus the channel? > > > > > > > > Thanks, > > > > -Jason > > > > > > > > Chinese Medicine <Chinese Medicine%40yaho\ ogroups.com> > > [Chinese Medicine <Traditional_Chinese_Medicin\ e%40>] > On Behalf Of Karen > > Adams > > Tuesday, December 02, 2008 9:24 AM > > To: Chinese Medicine <Chinese Medicine%40yaho\ ogroups.com> > > Re: 8 Extra > > > > > > > > Jason - I recommend you get a copy of Jeffrey Yuen's lecture on the 8 > > Extraordinary Meridians (from New England School of Acupuncture). Very > > good, very in depth, lots of history on use. Jeffrey says the 8 Extras > > are like oceans (as opposed to rivers/Primaries), so needling is deeper > > (thus 'telling' the point used that it is accessing an 8 Extra rather > > than a primary), and you have to shake the needle to stir the > waters, as > > it were. He also says that, because they are oceans, it takes longer > > for effect, and effects are more subtle. > > > > There's a lot in the lecture about using these channels as a reflection > > of life progression. Very interesting stuff. > > Karen > > > > Karen R Adams, > > Lic Ac, Dipl Ac > > 296 Avenue A > > Turners Falls, MA 01376 > > 413-768-8333 > > > > wrote: > > > > > I was wondering if others could share what they have been taught (or > > > discovered) in regard to accessing the 8 extra meridians with > acupuncture. > > > For example, what techniques do you specifically use that > > > differentiates the > > > stimulation of the Spleen channel vs. the chong. Consequently how > do you > > > know that you have accessed one versus the other (after you needle)? > > > Or does > > > it even matter. I know that some people have special techniques > they claim > > > to differentiate these and if it is not too much trouble I would > love to > > > hear the differing opinions out there. I am not overly concerned > about the > > > quality of the source, but it would be helpful if you could just > mention > > > where the idea came from (e.g. this or that teacher, some book, > personal > > > experience) etc. > > > > > > Thanks, > > > > > > - > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > <http://maps./py/maps.py?Pyt=Tmap > > > < > http://maps./py/maps.py?Pyt=Tmap & addr=2600+30th+Street%2C+Suite+20 > > > & addr=2600+30th+Street%2C+Suite+20 > > > <http://maps./py/maps.py?Pyt=Tmap > > > < > http://maps./py/maps.py?Pyt=Tmap & addr=2600+30th+Street%2C+Suite+20 > > > & addr=2600+30th+Street%2C+Suite+20> > > > 0 & csz=Boulder%2C+Co & country=us> 2600 30th Street, Suite 200 > > > Boulder, Co > > > 80301 > > > > > > > > > > > > <http://www.plaxo.com/signature?src=client_sig_212_1_simple_sig > > <http://www.plaxo.com/signature?src=client_sig_212_1_simple_sig & lang=en> > > & lang=en > > > <http://www.plaxo.com/signature?src=client_sig_212_1_simple_sig > > <http://www.plaxo.com/signature?src=client_sig_212_1_simple_sig & lang=en> > > & lang=en>> > > > Want a signature like this? > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You are posting as a guest. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.