Guest guest Posted December 1, 2008 Report Share Posted December 1, 2008 Hi all- Yesterday my 2 year old son developed red spots over much of his body. They are bright red, slightly raised, defined edges. I first noticed them in the morning when we changed his diaper; at that point they were mostly on his legs, some on his arms, a few on his torso, and maybe one on his face. He has no other symptoms, other than slight nasal congestion & runny nose (sometimes clear, sometimes opaque and slightly yellow), which preceded the rash. No fever or any noticeable discomfort. The rash doesn't seem to be bothering him at all. He started nursery school in September and has has congestion & runny nose on & off since then (not surprisingly). He is a healthy kid other than the constant exposure at school. He is not vaccinated. I sort of suspect Rubella (German Measles), b/c it has been described as mild and sometimes goes unnoticed, and is accompanied by cold symptoms. However, the pattern of the rash described in the texts (hairline down) is different that what I observed (unless it is possible that spots on the upper parts of his body could have both appeared and disappeared during the night). Also, there is a lack of any itchiness or fever. There are no noticeable heat signs either (his thirst has not increased, his urine is not scanty or yellow). He is as energetic as ever (as he is a VERY energetic child), but I am keeping him inside and trying to keep him from doing anything too acrobatic. Any advice? On hand, I have a few pediatric formulas, but I am not sure any are appropriate. I have the Gentle Warriors formulas Fire Fighter and Windbreaker by Kan. I have Cold Quell Jr by Blue Poppy. The only other liquid herbs I have is Chinese Modular Solutions formula Purge Heat by Kan. I am hesitant because he shows so little symptoms, and I have very little experience with pediatrics. Also, is there any reason to bring him to a pediatrician if he is not exhibiting signs of being ill (other than the rash)? I live in an area devoid of holistic doctors, and find it frustrating every time we go. Any advice would be appreciated. Thank you! Fiamma Sita Aaron, L.Ac., C.A., Dipl. O.M. Acupuncturist & Practitioner of Traditional Oriental Medicine 105 North Third Avenue, Highland Park NJ 08904 732-979-8766 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 1, 2008 Report Share Posted December 1, 2008 It could be an allergic reaction. Has your son started taking anything unusual or started with new food or different soap recently? -Steve Stephen Bonzak, L.Ac., Dipl. C.H. http://www.health-traditions.com sbonzak 773-470-6994 On Nov 30, 2008, at 6:07 PM, Fiamma Aaron wrote: > Hi all- > > Yesterday my 2 year old son developed red spots over much of his > body. They are bright red, slightly raised, defined edges. I first > noticed them in the morning when we changed his diaper; at that point > they were mostly on his legs, some on his arms, a few on his torso, > and maybe one on his face. He has no other symptoms, other than > slight nasal congestion & runny nose (sometimes clear, sometimes > opaque and slightly yellow), which preceded the rash. No fever or > any noticeable discomfort. The rash doesn't seem to be bothering him > at all. He started nursery school in September and has has > congestion & runny nose on & off since then (not surprisingly). He > is a healthy kid other than the constant exposure at school. He is > not vaccinated. > > I sort of suspect Rubella (German Measles), b/c it has been described > as mild and sometimes goes unnoticed, and is accompanied by cold > symptoms. However, the pattern of the rash described in the texts > (hairline down) is different that what I observed (unless it is > possible that spots on the upper parts of his body could have both > appeared and disappeared during the night). Also, there is a lack of > any itchiness or fever. There are no noticeable heat signs either > (his thirst has not increased, his urine is not scanty or yellow). > He is as energetic as ever (as he is a VERY energetic child), but I > am keeping him inside and trying to keep him from doing anything too > acrobatic. > > Any advice? On hand, I have a few pediatric formulas, but I am not > sure any are appropriate. I have the Gentle Warriors formulas Fire > Fighter and Windbreaker by Kan. I have Cold Quell Jr by Blue Poppy. > The only other liquid herbs I have is Chinese Modular Solutions > formula Purge Heat by Kan. I am hesitant because he shows so little > symptoms, and I have very little experience with pediatrics. > > Also, is there any reason to bring him to a pediatrician if he is not > exhibiting signs of being ill (other than the rash)? I live in an > area devoid of holistic doctors, and find it frustrating every time > we go. > > Any advice would be appreciated. > > Thank you! > > Fiamma Sita Aaron, L.Ac., C.A., Dipl. O.M. > Acupuncturist & Practitioner of Traditional Oriental Medicine > 105 North Third Avenue, Highland Park NJ 08904 > 732-979-8766 > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 1, 2008 Report Share Posted December 1, 2008 You have done a good job describing your son's symptoms according to TCM pattern identifications. Here is a brief analysis for you as reference. I am afraid there are very few (if any) set formulas are appropriate for infant patient like yours so modifications are necessary. You are welcome to contact me offlist if necessary. Diagnosis: fang zhen (Wind rash) Pathomechanism: Wind evil invading the fleshy exterior Formula: xiao feng san (Wind-Dispersing Powder) with modifications Medicinals: jing jie (schizonepeta) 2g chan tui (cicada molting) 2g bai xian pi (dictamnus) 2g bai zhu (ovate atractylodes) 5g sang ye (mulberry leaf) 2g ju hua (chrysanthemum) 2g niu bang zi (arctium) 2g fang feng (ledebouriella) 2g My 2 cents SUNG, Yuk-ming PhD (Chengdu U TCM), L Ac & CMP (HK) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 1, 2008 Report Share Posted December 1, 2008 Just curious, why not Jin yin hua and Lian qiao? Yin qiao san is a traditional formula for mumps/measles, superficial boils.... and Lian qiao bai du pian is used more often today: Lian qiao, Jin yin hua, Da huang, Pu gong ying, Zi hua di ding, Bai xian pi, Huang qin, Chi shao, Fang feng, Zhe bei mu, Jie geng, Bai zhi, Xuan shen, Mu tong, Gan cao, Tian hua fen, Zhi zi, Chan tui. This comes from Mayway's website about Lian qiao bai du pian... Functions: Dispels Wind, Clears Heat, Expels Toxins, Cools the Blood, Stops Itching Indications: Wind heat or heat toxins affecting the skin. Presenting with localized itching, redness, swelling, heat, inflammation or suppuration of the skin. May be accompanied by fever, headache, thirst, sore throat, dry throat, constipation. Tongue: red, red tip, yellow coat. Pulse: rapid Biomedical Applications: boils, carbuncles, abscesses, acne, folliculitis, paronychia, cellulitis, erysipelas, lymphangitis, lymphadenitis, impetigo, hand foot and mouth disease, eczema, dermatitis, allergic dermatitis, poison oak, poison ivy, psoriasis, pityriasis rosea, lichen sclerosis, urticaria, angioedema, idiopathic pruritus, herpes zoster, herpes simplex, measles, chicken pox, mastitis Clinical Comments: This formula is aimed at reducing the swelling, inflammation, redness and pain associated with many dermatological complaints. It ability to clear heat, promote the discharge of pus, and expel wind to stops itching, makes it applicable for a wide variety of skin presentations. Lian Qiao Bai Dubears some similarity to PF Five Flavors / Wu Wei Xiao Du Yin Wan #3332, which also clears toxic heat from the skin. Unlike Five Flavors, Lian Qiao Bai Du Pian also resolves dampness, promotes the discharge of pus and stops itching. PF The Great Windkeeper / Xiao Feng SanWan #3382 also resembles Lian Qiao Bai Du Pian but has ingredients such as Dang gui and Hei zhi ma that are aimed at supporting the Blood and Yin as a means to expel wind while Lian Qiao Bai Du Pian has more components to discharge pus and purge heat. Da huang, which purges toxic heat through the large intestine, makes Lian Qiao Bai Du Pian unsuitable for long-term use without the support of modifying formulas to protect the Spleen, while The Great Windkeeper/ Xiao Feng San Wan can be taken for longer intervals. Best of luck, K. On Sun, Nov 30, 2008 at 8:53 PM, sxm2649 <sxm2649 wrote: > You have done a good job describing your son's symptoms according to > TCM pattern identifications. Here is a brief analysis for you as > reference. I am afraid there are very few (if any) set formulas are > appropriate for infant patient like yours so modifications are > necessary. You are welcome to contact me offlist if necessary. > > Diagnosis: fang zhen (Wind rash) > Pathomechanism: Wind evil invading the fleshy exterior > Formula: xiao feng san (Wind-Dispersing Powder) with modifications > Medicinals: > jing jie (schizonepeta) 2g > chan tui (cicada molting) 2g > bai xian pi (dictamnus) 2g > bai zhu (ovate atractylodes) 5g > sang ye (mulberry leaf) 2g > ju hua (chrysanthemum) 2g > niu bang zi (arctium) 2g > fang feng (ledebouriella) 2g > > My 2 cents > > SUNG, Yuk-ming PhD (Chengdu U TCM), L Ac & CMP (HK) > > > -- aka Mu bong Lim Father of Bhakti The Four Reliances: Do not rely upon the individual, but rely upon the teaching. As far as teachings go, do not rely upon the words alone, but rely upon the meaning that underlies them. Regarding the meaning, do not rely upon the provisional meaning alone, but rely upon the definitive meaning. And regarding the definitive meaning, do not rely upon ordinary consciousness, but rely upon wisdom awareness. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 1, 2008 Report Share Posted December 1, 2008 I believe and Sung Yuk-ming, have given good advice here. I remember just a couple years ago, in chinatown , one could buy a bag 'Five Flavors' herbs (dandelion-Pu Gong Ying, honeysuckle flower-Jin Yin Hua, Viola yedoensis-zi hua di ding, chrysanthemum flower-Ju Jua, forsythia- Lian-qiao) for a couple bucks, and it was enough to last 2 days. Cook it up and let the smell fill the home, cool it and feed the baby spoonfuls gently, and with cotton balls dab it on the little one's body. Holding it, loving it. Infant diseases can pull our heart and make us afraid, but sometimes coming through things like this help to see the benefit of this system. And there isn't any conflict or contraindication to allopathic treatment, in fact, it is... complementary. Good luck. --- On Mon, 12/1/08, <johnkokko wrote: <johnkokko Re: Re: my toddler has spots Chinese Medicine Monday, December 1, 2008, 12:23 AM Just curious, why not Jin yin hua and Lian qiao? Yin qiao san is a traditional formula for mumps/measles, superficial boils.... and Lian qiao bai du pian is used more often today: Lian qiao, Jin yin hua, Da huang, Pu gong ying, Zi hua di ding, Bai xian pi, Huang qin, Chi shao, Fang feng, Zhe bei mu, Jie geng, Bai zhi, Xuan shen, Mu tong, Gan cao, Tian hua fen, Zhi zi, Chan tui. This comes from Mayway's website about Lian qiao bai du pian... Functions: Dispels Wind, Clears Heat, Expels Toxins, Cools the Blood, Stops Itching Indications: Wind heat or heat toxins affecting the skin. Presenting with localized itching, redness, swelling, heat, inflammation or suppuration of the skin. May be accompanied by fever, headache, thirst, sore throat, dry throat, constipation. Tongue: red, red tip, yellow coat. Pulse: rapid Biomedical Applications: boils, carbuncles, abscesses, acne, folliculitis, paronychia, cellulitis, erysipelas, lymphangitis, lymphadenitis, impetigo, hand foot and mouth disease, eczema, dermatitis, allergic dermatitis, poison oak, poison ivy, psoriasis, pityriasis rosea, lichen sclerosis, urticaria, angioedema, idiopathic pruritus, herpes zoster, herpes simplex, measles, chicken pox, mastitis Clinical Comments: This formula is aimed at reducing the swelling, inflammation, redness and pain associated with many dermatological complaints. It ability to clear heat, promote the discharge of pus, and expel wind to stops itching, makes it applicable for a wide variety of skin presentations. Lian Qiao Bai Dubears some similarity to PF Five Flavors / Wu Wei Xiao Du Yin Wan #3332, which also clears toxic heat from the skin. Unlike Five Flavors, Lian Qiao Bai Du Pian also resolves dampness, promotes the discharge of pus and stops itching. PF The Great Windkeeper / Xiao Feng SanWan #3382 also resembles Lian Qiao Bai Du Pian but has ingredients such as Dang gui and Hei zhi ma that are aimed at supporting the Blood and Yin as a means to expel wind while Lian Qiao Bai Du Pian has more components to discharge pus and purge heat. Da huang, which purges toxic heat through the large intestine, makes Lian Qiao Bai Du Pian unsuitable for long-term use without the support of modifying formulas to protect the Spleen, while The Great Windkeeper/ Xiao Feng San Wan can be taken for longer intervals. Best of luck, K. On Sun, Nov 30, 2008 at 8:53 PM, sxm2649 <sxm2649 (AT) 163 (DOT) com> wrote: > You have done a good job describing your son's symptoms according to > TCM pattern identifications. Here is a brief analysis for you as > reference. I am afraid there are very few (if any) set formulas are > appropriate for infant patient like yours so modifications are > necessary. You are welcome to contact me offlist if necessary. > > Diagnosis: fang zhen (Wind rash) > Pathomechanism: Wind evil invading the fleshy exterior > Formula: xiao feng san (Wind-Dispersing Powder) with modifications > Medicinals: > jing jie (schizonepeta) 2g > chan tui (cicada molting) 2g > bai xian pi (dictamnus) 2g > bai zhu (ovate atractylodes) 5g > sang ye (mulberry leaf) 2g > ju hua (chrysanthemum) 2g > niu bang zi (arctium) 2g > fang feng (ledebouriella) 2g > > My 2 cents > > SUNG, Yuk-ming PhD (Chengdu U TCM), L Ac & CMP (HK) > > > -- aka Mu bong Lim Father of Bhakti The Four Reliances: Do not rely upon the individual, but rely upon the teaching. As far as teachings go, do not rely upon the words alone, but rely upon the meaning that underlies them. Regarding the meaning, do not rely upon the provisional meaning alone, but rely upon the definitive meaning. And regarding the definitive meaning, do not rely upon ordinary consciousness, but rely upon wisdom awareness. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 1, 2008 Report Share Posted December 1, 2008 Possible Fifth disease caused by a parvovirus b19 fever, rashes,cough or runny nose Ross - Fiamma Aaron Chinese Medicine Sunday, November 30, 2008 4:07 PM my toddler has spots Hi all- Yesterday my 2 year old son developed red spots over much of his body. They are bright red, slightly raised, defined edges. I first noticed them in the morning when we changed his diaper; at that point they were mostly on his legs, some on his arms, a few on his torso, and maybe one on his face. He has no other symptoms, other than slight nasal congestion & runny nose (sometimes clear, sometimes opaque and slightly yellow), which preceded the rash. No fever or any noticeable discomfort. The rash doesn't seem to be bothering him at all. He started nursery school in September and has has congestion & runny nose on & off since then (not surprisingly). He is a healthy kid other than the constant exposure at school. He is not vaccinated. I sort of suspect Rubella (German Measles), b/c it has been described as mild and sometimes goes unnoticed, and is accompanied by cold symptoms. However, the pattern of the rash described in the texts (hairline down) is different that what I observed (unless it is possible that spots on the upper parts of his body could have both appeared and disappeared during the night). Also, there is a lack of any itchiness or fever. There are no noticeable heat signs either (his thirst has not increased, his urine is not scanty or yellow). He is as energetic as ever (as he is a VERY energetic child), but I am keeping him inside and trying to keep him from doing anything too acrobatic. Any advice? On hand, I have a few pediatric formulas, but I am not sure any are appropriate. I have the Gentle Warriors formulas Fire Fighter and Windbreaker by Kan. I have Cold Quell Jr by Blue Poppy. The only other liquid herbs I have is Chinese Modular Solutions formula Purge Heat by Kan. I am hesitant because he shows so little symptoms, and I have very little experience with pediatrics. Also, is there any reason to bring him to a pediatrician if he is not exhibiting signs of being ill (other than the rash)? I live in an area devoid of holistic doctors, and find it frustrating every time we go. Any advice would be appreciated. Thank you! Fiamma Sita Aaron, L.Ac., C.A., Dipl. O.M. Acupuncturist & Practitioner of Traditional Oriental Medicine 105 North Third Avenue, Highland Park NJ 08904 732-979-8766 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 1, 2008 Report Share Posted December 1, 2008 If it were *me* and based on what you have available and have said, *I* would give a combo of the windbreaker and fire fighter and skip the doc unless something alarming comes up. We've been through Roseola, Chicken Pox etc with no need for a doc and have used Kan ped formulas sucessfully. On Sun, Nov 30, 2008 at 4:07 PM, Fiamma Aaron <fiammasitawrote: > Hi all- > > Yesterday my 2 year old son developed red spots over much of his > body. They are bright red, slightly raised, defined edges. I first > noticed them in the morning when we changed his diaper; at that point > they were mostly on his legs, some on his arms, a few on his torso, > and maybe one on his face. He has no other symptoms, other than > slight nasal congestion & runny nose (sometimes clear, sometimes > opaque and slightly yellow), which preceded the rash. No fever or > any noticeable discomfort. The rash doesn't seem to be bothering him > at all. He started nursery school in September and has has > congestion & runny nose on & off since then (not surprisingly). He > is a healthy kid other than the constant exposure at school. He is > not vaccinated. > > I sort of suspect Rubella (German Measles), b/c it has been described > as mild and sometimes goes unnoticed, and is accompanied by cold > symptoms. However, the pattern of the rash described in the texts > (hairline down) is different that what I observed (unless it is > possible that spots on the upper parts of his body could have both > appeared and disappeared during the night). Also, there is a lack of > any itchiness or fever. There are no noticeable heat signs either > (his thirst has not increased, his urine is not scanty or yellow). > He is as energetic as ever (as he is a VERY energetic child), but I > am keeping him inside and trying to keep him from doing anything too > acrobatic. > > Any advice? On hand, I have a few pediatric formulas, but I am not > sure any are appropriate. I have the Gentle Warriors formulas Fire > Fighter and Windbreaker by Kan. I have Cold Quell Jr by Blue Poppy. > The only other liquid herbs I have is Chinese Modular Solutions > formula Purge Heat by Kan. I am hesitant because he shows so little > symptoms, and I have very little experience with pediatrics. > > Also, is there any reason to bring him to a pediatrician if he is not > exhibiting signs of being ill (other than the rash)? I live in an > area devoid of holistic doctors, and find it frustrating every time > we go. > > Any advice would be appreciated. > > Thank you! > > Fiamma Sita Aaron, L.Ac., C.A., Dipl. O.M. > Acupuncturist & Practitioner of Traditional Oriental Medicine > 105 North Third Avenue, Highland Park NJ 08904 > 732-979-8766 > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 2, 2008 Report Share Posted December 2, 2008 I have seen 4 cases of babies with these symptoms in the last two weeks in Florida. The pattern is not typical rubella but has many characteristics of it. The striking keynote I am seeing is that none of them are itching and seem to be relatively unaffected by it. Only one had emotional irritation with it. Two had a mild fever under 100F one subnormal temp. I opted to let the body use its own innate intelligence to fight off the expression of dis-ease without using meds on 3 out of the 4 cases. I did tell the moms to use an aveeno bath if they started itching. However all of them cleared up in about 72 hours one in 48 hours whether treated with meds or not. I would be more aggressive if the babies appeared ill or had more mental symptoms. The one I treated was uncharacteristically clingy and whiny which is what I treated and not the rash. One dose of pulsatilla 30c and within 14 hours the rash and emotional issues were gone. I had xiao feng san in the wings if needed. I also used blue color and tui na on Du 14, LI 11, GB 20, Bl 17, Bl 15, SP 6 and St 36. I'm curious if this is a new viral expression. Two were vaccinated and two not for rubella. It is my personal opinion that having mumps, measles, and chickenpox as a kid is far more desirable than getting it as an adult and should not be suppressed with vaccinations. Anyone else seeing this mild rash in their practices? Namaste, Sunny Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 3, 2008 Report Share Posted December 3, 2008 Hi Sunny- I think the practitioner who suggested Fifth's Disease was correct. I had forgotten about that one! It is very mild, and can be next to nothing other than the rash. My son has mild congestion with it, and that was it. I did give him a combo of Kan's Windbreaker & Fire Fighter, but I don't think even that was necessary with this virus. Thanks everyone for all of your responses, I stashed them away for when he gets Rubella or the Measles. Posted by: " sunny sunny " sunny sacredqi888 Tue Dec 2, 2008 7:06 am (PST) I have seen 4 cases of babies with these symptoms in the last two weeks in Florida. The pattern is not typical rubella but has many characteristics of it. The striking keynote I am seeing is that none of them are itching and seem to be relatively unaffected by it. Only one had emotional irritation with it. Two had a mild fever under 100F one subnormal temp. I opted to let the body use its own innate intelligence to fight off the expression of dis-ease without using meds on 3 out of the 4 cases. I did tell the moms to use an aveeno bath if they started itching. However all of them cleared up in about 72 hours one in 48 hours whether treated with meds or not. I would be more aggressive if the babies appeared ill or had more mental symptoms. The one I treated was uncharacteristically clingy and whiny which is what I treated and not the rash. One dose of pulsatilla 30c and within 14 hours the rash and emotional issues were gone. I had xiao feng san in the wings if needed. I also used blue color and tui na on Du 14, LI 11, GB 20, Bl 17, Bl 15, SP 6 and St 36. I'm curious if this is a new viral expression. Two were vaccinated and two not for rubella. It is my personal opinion that having mumps, measles, and chickenpox as a kid is far more desirable than getting it as an adult and should not be suppressed with vaccinations. Anyone else seeing this mild rash in their practices? Fiamma Sita Aaron, L.Ac., C.A., Dipl. O.M. Acupuncturist & Practitioner of Traditional Oriental Medicine 105 North Third Avenue, Highland Park NJ 08904 732-979-8766 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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